Dmitry: hello

[ChessieCat]

2 hours ago, Dmitry said:

I have calculated that with 10% reduction and 1 month hold it will take close to two years to come off. Does that sound about right?

 

Many members find that the lower their dose gets the slower the need to go, holding longer and/or reducing less.

 

Why taper paper: dose-occupancy curves

 

When to end the taper and jump to zero?

 

[TriD]

Well..I did the same as you got back on 10mg until I felt good and did another too fast taper..

 

the thing is.. if you taper at 10% of your previous dose it would take 1-2yrs. As an engineer when I looked at that I felt disheartened. I can understand for people who were on the drug for years and years who benefited from it, but if you took it for 1month and expect to taper for 2yrs.. it defies logic. 

 

____________________________

 

MOD NOTE:  Unfortunately it only takes about 1 month for the brain to adapt to the drug and become physiologically dependent on it.  So yes, if you want to keep withdrawal symptoms to a minimum than it may take a person 2 years to taper off it.  The 10% reduction every 4 weeks is a harm reduction method.  Some people may be able to go faster, some need to go slower.  Nobody knows which group you fall into so the 10% reduction method is a guideline, not a rule.  Each individual has to decide at what rate they are going to get off their drug.  SA gives information and suggestions based on personal experience, extensive research and observations.

____________________________

 

I think its based asked on the SERT blocking factor in it being an exponential type graph vs dosage. Which means to make a linear 10% drop you need to do a 10% of current dose, therefore a geometric progression.

 

again I’m a reasonable person with no agenda and I question the benefit for someone who takes a drug for 1 month and is then required to taper for 2yrs... if that is the case it’s quite a raw deal. Having said that, short term usage is often quoted as having a far less significant permanent effect on your body. But some people might just apply the same 10% rule to everything without understanding how it is derived.

 

my personal view is you should taper based on how well you feel after each stabilised dose, it could take long it could be short, best go by how you feel. 

 

I took the drug short short term and felt no different for each dose drop to 0. But only after that. I know cases where people who have taken SSRI for many years will feel each drop so they go slow at 10% rule, but I felt no withdrawal, only PAWS...started few days after my zero dose.

 

Edited June 15, 2019 by ChessieCat
added note

[TriD]

I use a knife and a jewellers scale which measure to 0.001gram.

i have branded lexapro, not generic it’s a small tablet. 

Each 10mg tablet weighs around 0.165gram, so I just cut it and weigh 10% of that to get approx 1mg. 

 

Just my my way and view...I don’t feel any different even with big drops..so I don’t measure it to such exactness..I guess I haven’t been taking it that long and not too sensitive to it..but as long as I know the doses are dropping and I feel ok with each keeping it as accurate as I can. If you feel even minor doseage then maybe you need the liquid taper. For me I just make sure the doses are in the downward direction and approximately 10%

[Dmitry]

Thank you so much for the reply. How long would you wait to start the taper once you stabilize?

 

Have you guys heard about True Hope product Empower plus? Apparently it's supposed to help with coming off the pharma drugs.

 

Thank you for your help.

[Dmitry]

And sorry one more question. Do you guys find that side-effects, such as weight gain, sexual dysfunction, etc diminishes with the taper?

Edited June 15, 2019 by Dmitry

[TriD]

 

 

Yes I found my sexual function turn back to ok below 5mg, at 10mg I could not orgasm. My appetite dropped back to normal when I stopped lexapro so my eating for sweets and junk food stopped quite suddenly, ..this drug makes you do uncharacteristic things as I’ve never been a binge eater, snacker or even like sweets.. 

 

the thing that happened after I stopped was the withdrawal symptoms which caused loss of appetite and while sexual function was normal it didn’t feel 100% normal.

 

because I was on a serotonin drug I think it’s mainly due to these levels not being normalised yet... there are many differences in subtle feelings that I notice that is not quite the same..but I think in months it comes back to normal, body needs time. Not sure if people who slow taper would get this, but I regret I didn’t taper much slower eg. Over 3-6months as I do get some unpleasantness and still cannot fully function as I would like to, I did this because I was on the drug for a relatively short period and didn’t experience any symptoms in the drops from 10mg to zero, but after that I got symptoms...

 

i only waited 3 weeks after 10mg reinstatement as I felt good by then and wanted to just get off the drugs... then I tapered for around 6weeks although my other plan was to do it at least over 3 months. 

 

As as for the supplements my experience is this... it may not be the same for you, but they’re only useful if you are feeling symptoms during tapering which your body is still having the drug and you are dropping doses.

____________________________

 

MOD NOTE:  The only supplements which SA recommends are Magnesium and Omega-3 Fish Oil .

 

If you are experiencing withdrawal symptoms it means that you are reducing your drug too quickly.  It is better to slow the taper rate than to add supplements.

____________________________

 

When I went to 0mg all supplements had a paradoxical effect on me, I put it to my body has started going through a restoration phase where the drug is no longer present and such it goes into confusion. I became sensitive to all psycho active supplements and vitamins, the body over reacts... that’s more the second phase after the initial phase of accute symptoms ..I call it the PAWS phase when your body starts a slow readjustment back to homeostasis after the initial accute phase when it gets the shock of the SSRI no longer being present..this is the second sensitive recovery phase.

 

Edited June 15, 2019 by ChessieCat
added note

[Dmitry]

Thank you so much for the reply. I too use a scale and gonna attempt to do small cuts. My experience was pretty similar to yours. I had no symptoms going from 10mg to 0mg and 3 weeks later the " fun " started. I was on the medication for about 8 months prior to that. I am holding steady at 10mg for now. Gonna take my time this time around as I don't want to go through that again. My concern is also weight gain. Did you find that weights started to decrease around 5 mg?

[TriD]

14 minutes ago, Dmitry said:

Thank you so much for the reply. I too use a scale and gonna attempt to do small cuts. My experience was pretty similar to yours. I had no symptoms going from 10mg to 0mg and 3 weeks later the " fun " started. I was on the medication for about 8 months prior to that. I am holding steady at 10mg for now. Gonna take my time this time around as I don't want to go through that again. My concern is also weight gain. Did you find that weights started to decrease around 5 mg?

 

Im into my 8th week 0mg and its not going to well. The first 4 weeks was ok and i thought i might get through. But this is often the honeymoon period. 

 

Its just my own understanding but after the 4-6week period is when the nervous system starts to get tired and unbalanced ... that was when i started to feel got some bad symptoms of stress and mood. So i decided i needed to get back on a small dose of lexapro..maybe 1mg to give my body a break. Sensitivity went pretty high. I might even go back higher. Stablise then taper again much more slowly...i guess i wanted to see for myself the first two times i tried to quit

 

In retrospect my tapering was pretty much cold turkey from 10mg. But i would go for the 1mg drop per 2-4weeks and 1mg or less when below 5mg..of course see how i feel at each point. 

Then hopefully next time at zero i wont feel anything after that and free of it. I thought i could beat the system.

 

I found appetite goes back to normal <5mg..not sure the exact dose. But at 10mg i was binge eating and weight is then a problem...5 meals a day full of junk food. Couldnt control myself..this is a known thing with antidepressants. 

 

I can say that at each major dose milestone or shelf.. i felt different things change and usually return to resembling normal..eg. at 5mg i know for sure my sexual function returns vs 10mg when it doesnt work. 5mg seems to be a manageable dose for me in terms of side effects so i would not want to go above that if i am getting the benefits.. but of course everyones body is different. 

[Dmitry]

How long were on the medication?

 

I also thought that getting off after 8 months should not be too difficult. Was I wrong.

 

Edited June 16, 2019 by ChessieCat
removed quote

[TriD]

YEah as professor healy says it should treated just the same as benzo tapering. 

 

So so imagine you were on a benzodiazepine for 8months with it in your system 24/7 .. you can’t quickly stop that. You probably need to taper 6-12months to not have bad effects... unless you are someone who can drop faster and not experience withdrawals 

[ChessieCat]

Your drug signature is a bit confusing.  It would be helpful if you could make it easier to understand.

 

Q:  Did you ever go of escitalopram completely?  If yes, please add the date and 0mg.

 

Escitalopram:

10 mg May 15 - May 29       2019?  If yes, please move this to the bottom of the escitalopram information and add the year

Clonazepam :

0.625 mg April 28 - May 29.    what year?  Please add this information

Escitalopram: 

May 2 , 2018  - May 12, 2018 : 5mg

May 13, 2018 - Jan 20, 2019 : 10mg

Jan 21, 2019 - Feb 9, 2019 : 7.5mg

Feb 10, 2019 - March 24 : 6mg

Feb 25, 2019 - March 9 : 5mg

March 10, 2019 - March 23 : 2.5mg

March 25, 2019 : 1.5mg 

[ChessieCat]

On 5/22/2018 at 5:10 AM, brassmonkey said:

Restabilization from a Reinstatement is not going to happen overnight.  Many people will start to get some relief from their symptoms right away. While for some people it can take several days to weeks to see improvements.  This is to see improvements in symptoms though.  Once symptoms have started to improve they must continue to do so until they reach that state of being the same day in and day out.  If there are large fluctuations in symptoms from week to week then stability has not been achieved and more time is required.  Reaching stability is very individual and will frequently take three to six months.  It’s not unheard of for it to take eighteen months to two years to fully stabilize from a reinstatement.  A lot of this depends on how bad the symptoms were and the amount of time a person had been off the drug at the time of the reinstatement.

 

WDnormal (withdrawal normal)

 

If you are not sure if you are experiencing withdrawal normal, you can either continue holding or do a test reduction.  A test reduction is when you reduce by a small amount, eg 1%, 2.5% but no more than 5%.

[ChessieCat]

On 6/16/2019 at 9:30 AM, Dmitry said:

I am holding steady at 10mg for now.

 

Please add the updated information, date and dose, to your drug signature.

 

[ChessieCat]

On 6/16/2019 at 9:30 AM, Dmitry said:

I had no symptoms going from 10mg to 0mg and 3 weeks later the " fun " started. I was on the medication for about 8 months prior to that. I am holding steady at 10mg for now.

[Altostrata]

On 6/14/2019 at 5:44 PM, Dmitry said:

Thank you so much for the reply. How long would you wait to start the taper once you stabilize?

 

Have you guys heard about True Hope product Empower plus? Apparently it's supposed to help with coming off the pharma drugs.

 

Thank you for your help.

 

Please use search to find discussion about these supplements and others. We do not recommend TrueHope.

[Altostrata]

22 hours ago, TriD said:

YEah as professor healy says it should treated just the same as benzo tapering. 

 

So so imagine you were on a benzodiazepine for 8months with it in your system 24/7 .. you can’t quickly stop that. You probably need to taper 6-12months to not have bad effects... unless you are someone who can drop faster and not experience withdrawals 

 

@TriD

 

That's the conundrum, isn't it, TriD? The only way to learn if you can taper faster is the hard way -- by getting withdrawal symptoms if you taper too fast.

 

Rather than recommending people try this and then maybe hurt themselves badly with severe withdrawal symptoms, which cause many people to panic and do things that are even more self-harming, we advise people to go slowly from the beginning. Tapering will take as long as it takes. The point is not to get harmed by withdrawal symptoms.

 

We'd very much appreciate your assistance in letting people know about this.

 

Edited June 17, 2019 by ChessieCat
added tag

[Dmitry]

Absolutely. I have attempted to come off antidepressants tòo quickly in the past and learned the hard way. I truly believe that slow tapering is the only way to go. Thank you guys for the information. 

[Dmitry]

13 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

 

Please add the updated information, date and dose, to your drug signature.

 

Could you please remind me on how to update the signature please.

[Gridley]

 

41 minutes ago, Dmitry said:

Could you please remind me on how to update the signature please.

 

Here's the link.  When you've finished, click on "save" in the lower left corner.

 

 Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature.

[Dmitry]

Please let me know if I updated the signature correctly. Thank you.

[ChessieCat]

19 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

 

Clonazepam :

0.625 mg April 28 - May 29.    what year?  Please add this information

 

 

Please include clonazepam and add the year.

 

Okay, I've made some changes.  I've reduced month names to 3 letters and removed the unnecessary years (only included enough so it is easy to see year changes) and also made them bold so they can be easily seen.  I've also changed the order (as noted) and moved it to the bottom of the list and put the information in the same order.

 

Please check the information below and if it is okay, you can copy and paste it in your drug signature and make the necessary changes.

 

Escitalopram:

10 mg - May 15 2019 - present                )

5 mg -    May 2 2019 - May 14 2019        )  changed order and moved this information to the bottom

2.5 mg - April 20 - May 1 2019                 )

 

 

 

Clonazepam:

Apr 28 ???? - May 29:  0.625 mg               Add year/s (if 2019 only Apr 28 2019)

Escitalopram: 

May 2 2018 - May 12:  5mg

May 13 - Jan 20 2019:  10mg

Jan 21 2019 - Feb 9:  7.5mg

Feb 10 - Mar 24:  6mg

Feb 25 - March 9: 5mg

Mar 10 - Mar 23: 2.5mg

Mar 25 - ??? ??: 1.5mg - 0 mg.                     Add ending date (no year needed)           

Apr 20 - May 1:  2.5 mg

May 2 - May 14:  5 mg

May 15: 10 mg

[Dmitry]

Updated, thank you

[ChessieCat]

That's much better.  Thank you

 

 

[ChessieCat]

You've only been on 10mg for 1 month and made a lot of changes in the last 6 months.

 

It may take several months, 2 minimum and possibly 4 (or maybe more unfortunately) to stabilise before it may be okay to do a test reduction.

 

All you can do at this time is be patient.

[Dmitry]

Ok I understand. Is there anything I can do to counter act the weight gain and libido issue naturally?

[ChessieCat]

Waiting is natural!

[ChessieCat]

And free 😊

[ChessieCat]

Remember it is what it is at this time  Acceptance

[Dmitry]

Thank you)

[Dmitry]

Hey guys, I am still holding. Will hold at the current dosage for few more weeks. Question- when we do a test dosage of under 5%, how long do we stay at the dosage and how soon would I know if I am not ready to lower?

 

Thank you

[Altostrata]

Do you mean a reduction of 5%? I'd give a trial two weeks to see if it's okay, then you might try The Brassmonkey Slide Method of Micro-tapering

[Dmitry]

Hey guys. I really need your help. I don't know what to do at this point. I been reducing gradually using a brassmonkey slide method. I am now down to approximately 6.2 escitalopram. I been gradually reducing the clonazepam also. After the last drop I started to experience anxiety that is pretty high. Prior to this during the reduction I did not experience any anxiety at all. What would you suggest? Please let me know.

[Gridley]

26 minutes ago, Dmitry said:

Hey guys. I really need your help. I don't know what to do at this point. I been reducing gradually using a brassmonkey slide method. I am now down to approximately 6.2 escitalopram. I been gradually reducing the clonazepam also. After the last drop I started to experience anxiety that is pretty high. Prior to this during the reduction I did not experience any anxiety at all. What would you suggest? Please let me know.

 

You said, "After the last drop, I started to experience anxiety...."  Which drop are you talking about, Escitalopram or Clonazepam?

If Clonazepam, how much was the drop?  Depending on your answers, I can advise you further.

 

[Dmitry]

I dropper Clonazepam 10 days ago. I dropped from 0.3125 to 0.25mg.

 

I dropped Escitalopram 3 days ago from, in weight , 0.86 to 0.83.

 

Please let me know if this makes sense.

[Gridley]

13 minutes ago, Dmitry said:

Please let me know if this makes sense.

 

Did you experience the anxiety after the Escitalopram drop or after the Clonazepam drop?  How soon after?

[Dmitry]

Hard to say. I believe a few days after the clonazepam drop. It comes in waves. As an example, I was fine this morning but around 12 noon I started to feel it for a few hours.