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Psychiatric drugs toxicity -- permanent damage?

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clearday

Well, these drugs certainly are powerful, no doubt about that. And doctors have certainly ignored our cries for help. And they continue to be in denial about the existence of protracted SSRI syndrome. If I could do one thing over in life, it would be to have never taken these SSRIs which have turned out to be toxic for me, causing me difficult long-term problems. 

 

Many people swear by these SSRI drugs. They definitely have helped thousands of mentally ill people to live a tolerable life compare to life without these drugs. And that is why they are so popular. And that is one reason why psychiatrists think these drugs are so great. But they overlook the harm that these drugs are causing so many of us, which we struggle so long with to heal from.

 

Regarding agnosia - yes, it is possible that there are people who feel that overall they have no harmful changes from years of SSRI use, but are at a lower level of functioning they are not aware of due to the effects of SSRIs. But for me, I'm very self-aware and would know even tiny differences between how I felt  before and after SSRI use. It's hard for me to imagine that so many people could walk around so clueless as to changes in how they feel over time. And the whole picture is muddied by the fact that our level of function slowly diminishes over time anyway due to aging and the cumulative effects of a lifetime of stress and use of alcohol and other drugs. So how do we know what agent took the toll on us. 

 

And also, there are people who say they feel better after taking years of SSRIs, post use. Those people give some doctors cause to say that yes, these drugs cause permanent change, and change for the better, that these drugs may "cure" some symptoms. I'm just not going along with that. People often naturally recover from bouts of depression and anxiety, I would be very skeptical of someone asserting that these drugs actually cause permanent change for the better.  

 

Thanks btdt - great to see someone looking in to this. The more the public becomes aware of the potential for harm that SSRIs pose, the better!

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btdt

"Many people swear by these SSRI drugs. They definitely have helped thousands of mentally ill people to live a tolerable life compare to life without these drugs. And that is why they are so popular"

 

Yes I know I use to be one of those people who "swore" by the drugs... after I had a severe reaction to prozac I never returned to baseline.. and the drugs helped me.. sleep... not have as much pain ect. 

 

I was put on prozac or two wks to treat nerve pain in my leg I have had mental health issues ever since a bad reaction to it.  Because of me and my advocating Antidepressant use many of my family member are not addicted to these drugs and do not hear a word I say about them now.. as they are now swearing by them. 

 

These drugs change how we think... so do a lot of illegal drugs I am sure many alcoholics and crack heads swear by their drugs too. 

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jthebrave

Some things may be permanent but  in my case I took prozac for 10 years. I was off of it for 4 years with absolutely no problems, nothing permanent that I could detect. Years later my original problem did relapse. Ignorantly I thought prozac may help again but I had a severe adverse reaction. I tried a couple of other SSRIs but my brain rejected all of  them.

 

I do believe something was permanentely changed because my brain violently reacted to the SSRI. However, I don't think that whatever was changed permanently makes me feel any different. Psychologically I recovered 100% from the prozac but I think something changed since I cannot take an SSRI again.

 

That's basically what happened to me. After being on meds for 13 years and tolerating them very well, I just can't take them anymore at this time. Why the hell is this? Every time I try to reinstate I feel like a have serotonin syndrome...heart racing, head pressure, difficulty breathing, and other symptoms that are not in my head...otherwise I wouldn't have been able to take the drugs for 13 years in the FIRST DAMN PLACE!!!!!

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Theon

Is prozac the only AD that has been shown to cause these permanent changes in the brain? What about the other ADs and the rest of drugs?,

Or is prozac the only one that has been researched?. I hope for the sake of my brain that prozac does not end up being the worst of all ADs...

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Marta

I think in a different way all Ads cause permanent changes in the brain...I have hope that in 30 years "good" medicine will understand what's really going on in our brain....so you are in good company

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Altostrata

This is a concern that comes up over and over. If SSRIs permanently damaged the brain or nervous system, there would be no reason to come off them, and there would be no reason for this site.
 
The the brain and nervous system are constantly changing. If your brain and nervous system changed to accommodate the effects of the drugs, they can change again.
 
See

neuroplasticity = hope

Neuroplasticity - Norman Doidge MD Interview

Self-directed Neuroplasticity

Neuroplasticity, slow taper and recovery

Brain remodeling

“I wrote a new story for my nervous system” — neurosculpting - neuroplasticity....

The IT GETS BETTER SERIES

The Heart-Brain Connection: The Neuroscience of Social, Emotional Learning...

Andrews, 2012 Primum non nocere: an evolutionary analysis...

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Marta

Thanks a lot Altostrata! 

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NoMeaning25

Alto, i agree and accept, BUT

If these drugs dont do permanent damage, WHY am i not getting better at all at 37 months off.

 

I feel in my heart i will never get better. 37 months is too long with barely no improvements.

 

I am 26 years old. YOUNG!

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antidepressantsNoMore

I think most times, people make a full recovery. It just can take years.

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NoMeaning25

MOST times.

There are the very few rare exceptions and you are looking at one.

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dalsaan

Nomeaning you seem determined to be permanently damaged. Nothing we say can change that, nor will anything that is posted on the site help you in that context.

 

I'm very sure you system has the capacity to heal given the right conditions. I'm just as certain that your beliefs and their effects on your nervous system are not conducive to healing.

 

I don't say that out of a lack of compassion. I say that out of devastation that you are undermining your healing potential to such as extent

 

Dalsaan

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NoMeaning25

There are many people that are still very ill at 10 - 12 years off.

 

What is the definition of permanent then?

 

Im not negative. Im just stating that there are exceptions. No point in denying this. There are the very rare few people who are left disabled by this and there is no need for anyone to ignore this.

 

Im just someone suffering for 3 years straight with no improvement in sight. What conclusion am i supposed to come accross?

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dalsaan

My definition of permanent is 'forever more'.   My question to you is what have the people who are still very ill over 10-12 years done in regard to their healing?   Monica at beyond meds argues that everything that you do matters for your health and prospects of recovering.   I would agree, it takes 100 little things.  That's the reason why it is important not to be fatalism and construct protracted withdrawal as permanent because when you do you stop looking for your 100 little things.

 

Dalsaan

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NoMeaning25

Monica tapered off her drugs. To me that is a big difference to cold tukey and adverse reactions. I do not know what they have done to promote healing.

 

Sometimes one is just too sick to do anything. Even if its just something small like taking a walk.

 

Yes there is no point on dwelling on the idea that this is permanent, but when you have been suffering so severely for so long you kind of give up being positive and hopeful. I am too weak and severely affected to even attempt anything. I cannot do yoga, i cannot go for short walks. For a 26 year old thats devastating as it is.

 

It might be that the trauma ive had to deal with had a big impact. Im suffering from CPTSD and my outlook in life isnt too great atm.

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antidepressantsNoMore

Monica tapered off her drugs. To me that is a big difference to cold tukey and adverse reactions. I do not know what they have done to promote healing.

 

Sometimes one is just too sick to do anything. Even if its just something small like taking a walk.

 

Yes there is no point on dwelling on the idea that this is permanent, but when you have been suffering so severely for so long you kind of give up being positive and hopeful. I am too weak and severely affected to even attempt anything. I cannot do yoga, i cannot go for short walks. For a 26 year old thats devastating as it is.

 

It might be that the trauma ive had to deal with had a big impact. Im suffering from CPTSD and my outlook in life isnt too great atm.

 

Don't give up hope. What about taking magnesium?

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btdt

Iam not scared .I accepted long ago the fact that I will have to live with some damage .

I simply don`t understand  people reaction here .

It is like they are completely in denial that there will be some changes that are irreversible(may be in few years thanks to medical progress)and that will need people engagement to find a solution. 

They may improve(some will FEEL like they were before ) but to say that everybody will  be 100% like before is a pure blatant lie.

I guess most need some lies to keep going but the future generation owes us the truth to not make our mistakes .

May be we need to stop being egoistic and self-centred and just expose those medications for what they truly are :poisons 

Long-term effects of antidepressants

Antidepressants have been shown to produce long-term, and in some cases, irreversible chemical and structural changes to the body and brain.

The administration of Prozac and Paxil raises cortisol levels in human subjects (Jackson 2005, p.90). Given the fact that elevated cortisol levels are associated with depression, weight gain, immune dysfunction, and memory problems, the possibility that antidepressants may contribute to prolonged elevations in cortisol is alarming to say the least.

In a study designed to investigate the anatomic effects of serotonergenic compounds, researchers at Thomas Jefferson University found that high-dose, short-term exposure to SSRIs in rats was sufficient to produce swelling and kinking in the serotonin nerve fibers (Kalia 2000). Research performed by a different group of investigators showed that antidepressants can kill neuronsand cause structural changes similar to those observed in Parkinson’s in rodents.

I want to emphasize that what I’ve covered here is only the beginning of the story when it comes to the adverse effects of antidepressants. There are volumes of published research and many books which present this information with much more detail. I recommend Peter Breggin’s landmark “Brain Disabling Treatments in Psychiatry” and Grace Jackson’s “Rethinking Psychiatric Drugs” as resources if you are interested in pursuing this further.

I tried to read those books from Breggin and Jackson I had them for a time but could not think well enough to read them.  So here we are a few years later and somebody else has chewed if up for us and spit it back out.  

I for one respect Tanit's sensibilities tho I know it may be damaging for those in early wd who are struggling hard we must have room for the facts too.  Future generations..... !?

 

Check the dates of the studies I noticed 2000 and 2005.... and I wonder other to come after us will look at dates... our dates. 

 

2000 was the year I started Effexor had I known the truth I would not have taken it and may have saved myself from if not forever damage 10 years of wd.... 

 

2005 I was in tolerance and had no clue what was wrong with me... got sicker and sicker till I and my life completely collapsed and I lost it all have not recovered from any of it yet not financially sexually health ...not yet. 

 

What we those future people think when they read out posts ... they will know we know the damage of the drugs.. and they will come to learn how very powerless we are to change any of it ... or if we are the change is so slow this next generation will not see any benefit from our damage...

 

Perspective... do I have any... maybe not but this pace is way to slow... 

https://chriskresser.com/the-dark-side-of-antidepressants/

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Zeipii
On 08/02/2015 at 10:04 PM, tanit said:

Iam not scared .I accepted long ago the fact that I will have to live with some damage .

I simply don`t understand  people reaction here .

It is like they are completely in denial that there will be some changes that are irreversible(may be in few years thanks to medical progress)and that will need people engagement to find a solution. 

They may improve(some will FEEL like they were before ) but to say that everybody will  be 100% like before is a pure blatant lie.

I guess most need some lies to keep going but the future generation owes us the truth to not make our mistakes .

May be we need to stop being egoistic and self-centred and just expose those medications for what they truly are :poisons 

fully agree, poisons

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jamesbond747

I dropped at this webpage after being horrified for over a month with the meaning of irreversible antagonists and do they cause permanent nerve damage...

It solved my conceptions that nerve and nerve receptors are two different thing but yet even nerve receptors take a set amount of time to recycle themselves...

http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f30/pharmacology-on-wikipedia-119246/

 

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Altostrata

Whenever you come across medical terminology that alarms you, be sure to thoroughly Google it and find out what it means from a reliable source. Universities or textbooks are good. Very often, it's not what you think it is, and if you post it here, you might unnecessarily frighten people.

 

Here is Wikipedia's very incomplete description of irreversible antagonist

 

Quote

An irreversible antagonist is a type of antagonist that binds permanently to a receptor, either by forming a covalent bond to the active site, or alternatively just by binding so tightly that the rate of dissociation is effectively zero at relevant time scales.[1] This permanently deactivates the receptor and is usually followed by rapid internalisation and recycling of the non-functional receptor protein. Irreversible enzyme inhibitors that act similarly are clinically used and include drugs such as aspirin, omeprazole and monoamine oxidase inhibitors.[2]

 

We all know of people taking aspirin and omeprazole. They do not suffer permanent nerve or enzyme damage.

 

Here is a more complete description from a pharmacology textbook:

 

Quote

Irreversible antagonist: A pharmacologic antagonist that cannot be overcome by increasing agonist concentration

 

In other words, it is "irreversible" because another drug can't act on the receptors it affects. You have to wait for the "irreversible antagonist" to wear off. It does not cause permanent damage of any kind, the body gradually removes it and metabolizes it.

 

For example, monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs) are an irreversible antagonist type of antidepressant. Doctors are cautioned to wait after a "wash out" period before starting a different antidepressant, because while the MAOI is being metabolized, it still occupies serotonin receptors and adding another serotonergic can cause serotonin toxicity. There is no question that the MAOI eventually wears off -- as do all "irreversible" antagonists.

 

I found this out by Googling, and you can, too. Please do this so you can post good, valuable information on this site. Someone's poorly informed suppositions from another forum site do not belong in our Journals and Scientific Sources section.

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Asi1309

Do you think psychiatric drugs cause permanent damage?

Dr breggin says it is, I'm interested from a scientific stand point.

Maybe it does and we just unaware?

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Altostrata

I think Dr. Breggin tends to exaggerate because he's very worried and wants attention for the problems of overprescription, incorrect dosing, excessive length of time on the drugs, and overlooking adverse reactions of psychiatric drugs.

 

Certainly if you take any drug at too high a dosage for too long, it may be harmful. If your liver gets damaged so much you need a liver replacement, that's a permanent change.

 

Otherwise, most people are experiencing modification from psychiatric drugs, but not necessarily permanent damage. Your nervous system is designed to constantly adapt. If it adapts to a drug, it can adapt back.
 

Even if you have no adverse effects from a psychiatric drug, if you've taken it for years, you will not be the same person after you go off. Time goes on, your body changes as you age, and you cannot step into the same river twice.

 

There is no point in working yourself up in worry about permanent damage. You're going to stay on the drug, reduce it, or go off. One way or the other, you'll go on to live your life. All of us are changed by everything that happens as we experience our lives.

 

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Asi1309

This question is getting asked again and again both because of neuro emotions and 2 scary words: "permanent damage", now the drugs most certainly change the body and it most definitely change after the drugs are stopped as all thing in our body and nature does, now, I think it's more of a philosophical question: there was a "being" a "soul" certain "neurone composition" that made me - me.

This "thing" concludes our cognition and everything we conceive the world with, so if I'm taking an antidepressant im changing or even destroying myself as im not feeling me anymore, furthermore if you cold Turkey and scramble your mind and body even more, so if its destroying - then parts of what made you - you, are gone forever such as congnitin abilities and core memories like in TBI, or its merely a case of making changing temporary like drinking alcohol or taking drugs when you return to base quickly, or maybe it's the same as any other drugs just longer?

Because we know the brain change its structure to accommodate for the psych drug, and so what's happen when you stop and 5 years pass for instance. 

The reason it's scary is because its makes the entire ordeal real, it's not just being temporarily drunk, its remodeled your brain in a physical way, and maybe you're ending less you after if some systems in your brain destroyed after withdrawal, and you slower and less you overall.

Brain damage isn't a joke if I wanted one i would bash my head into a wall 1000 times... I know the message you're trying to convey is get over it nothing is perfect but this is seriously messing me up, and it's like a existential or philosophical crisis, like if I wouldn't took the drugs I would have been different then I'm now not only psychologically but *physically*. I'm no longer me and maybe we're all slower but we dont know it because we're too brain damaged to tell you know what I mean?

This is seriously messed up, I don't care if I'm better then before I want my old depressed self, because it was me.

I know I maybe just experiencing a neuro emotional crisis right now, but how is it not bothering yall?

This experience is much more then a withdrawal this is an ethical issue and violation of moral laws,  I was not pretend to get my brain remodeled...

 

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Altostrata

Everything you experience changes you for the rest of your life.

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Asi1309

Dr Breggin's always discussing about how the damge the psych drugs cause ie CBI is very similar to damge from TBI and concussions, and it makes sense as the brain only has so much mechanisms of response and repair. 

He states that the symptoms of cbi that we all experience and hopefully will experienced*, are a result of dysfunction of the brain - damge, it means that their is something wrong in brain function and that manliest itself both in symptoms (the drugs symptom which are unnatural and abnormal by nature), and in ct scan etc as shrinkage brain atrophy and abnormal cell division.

Now, if the symptoms are a sign of brain dysfunction then when the symptoms are gone and you feel normal agian then it must be a sign of brain healing.

Because when you take these drugs you feel awful becaus there are abnormal changes in your brain and when you stop and begin to feel better it must be a sign of some healing taking place. And if someone feel they're symptom free from psych drug use and withdrawal then the abnormal parts of their brain that cause that must be gone otherwise they will still experience symptoms.

There cant be no psych drugs symptoms- brain damge if there isn't symptoms present. 

When brain atrophy takes place there is also compromised brain function ie symptoms of cognitive nature and higher thinking but when the drug is removed and the patient no longer experiences cognitive struggles then it must suggest that some of its brain grew back, otherwise he wouldn't be able to demonstrate higher thinking abilities and executive performance. 

This is just me trying to combat my deepest nightmare that I'm possibly less human after using psych drugs for 4.5 years and now being in the midst of withdrawal...

I cannot let go of this question - the studies show that there is shrinkage in the frontal lobe the part that makes us human and responsible for higher thinking, abnormal cell growth and death. So maybe when we think even after we're symptoms free and beat the withdrawal we just dont realise we're less us Less human because we lost parts of our brain and just not aware because how can you be aware when part of what's make you an aware being has being destroyed, and maybe we're no different then people who had gone ECT and literally lost part of their brain - part of them...

That's my deep dark fears - I dont care about being depressed my entire life, I just pray for not having lost parts of my brain and what makes me -me, this is seriously scary stuff and a true nightmare.

Maybe we're all having anagnosia like peter says and we're less us then we used to be.

Depression is tough but this is REAL problems and something that really frightens me.

It's like that Ernest Hemingway quote after committing suicide due to ECT - the treatment was brilliant but the patient has died. 

I wish I've never took those drugs

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Altostrata

Yes, I know what Dr. Breggin says. When something is "like" something else, that's not the same as being the same as something else.

 

There's a big difference between organic damage, where a physical part is broken or destroyed, as in traumatic brain injury or liver damage, and dysfunction in signaling.

 

Dr. Breggin is deliberately exaggerating the risk of psychiatric drugs because he wants to see them prescribed much less frequently. This has scared the pants off millions of people who decided to take the drugs without informing themselves about them first. Please do not take Dr. Breggin's warnings literally.

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Asi1309
1 hour ago, Altostrata said:

Yes, I know what Dr. Breggin says. When something is "like" something else, that's not the same as being the same as something else.

 

There's a big difference between organic damage, where a physical part is broken or destroyed, as in traumatic brain injury or liver damage, and dysfunction in signaling.

 

Dr. Breggin is deliberately exaggerating the risk of psychiatric drugs because he wants to see them prescribed much less frequently. This has scared the pants off millions of people who decided to take the drugs without informing themselves about them first. Please do not take Dr. Breggin's warnings literally.

The thing is that research and science says the same, it's not a matter of opinion rather of scientific truth.

After going through all this I feel like I can't tolerate anything but the truth. I want to know what the science and research says about long term use, and quitting etc...

I feel like you're going to quote that movie:

"You cant handle the truth"

Is there a study that compare people's brain before and after drugs use, and 10 years down the line?

I just have to know if those drugs cause any real damge and harm, and is it permanent 

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Henryk12
On 12/19/2019 at 6:38 PM, Altostrata said:

Yes, I know what Dr. Breggin says. When something is "like" something else, that's not the same as being the same as something else.

 

There's a big difference between organic damage, where a physical part is broken or destroyed, as in traumatic brain injury or liver damage, and dysfunction in signaling.

 

Dr. Breggin is deliberately exaggerating the risk of psychiatric drugs because he wants to see them prescribed much less frequently. This has scared the pants off millions of people who decided to take the drugs without informing themselves about them first. Please do not take Dr. Breggin's warnings literally.

But it did damage the brain after all . Like you know mine is damaged 

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Altostrata

When it comes to effects of psychiatric drugs, if you believe it, it will be so.

 

Henryk, you can believe you are permanently damaged if you want to, but we can't help you here. Your will to the worst case scenario is stronger than any online peer support. I'm not going to continue to argue with you about this. Perhaps you should find another group that believes as you do, you can reinforce each other's expectation of doom.

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