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Brandy

Curcumin or turmeric

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Brandy

I don't know if any of this article's contents, which also mention SSRIs, are relevant or not.

 

B R A I N R E S E A R C H 1 1 6 2 ( 2 0 0 7 ) 9 – 1 8

 

Curcumin reverses impaired hippocampal neurogenesis and

increases serotonin receptor 1A mRNA and brain-derived

neurotrophic factor expression in chronically stressed rats

 

Ying Xua, Baoshan Kub, Li Cuic, Xuejun Lib, Philip A. Barisha,

Thomas C. Fosterc, William O. Oglea,*

 

aDepartment of Biomedical Engineering, University of Florida, Gainesville, FL, 32611, USA

bDepartment of Pharmacology, School of Basic Medical Science, Peking University, 38 Xueyuan Road, Beijing, 100083, PR China

cDepartment of Neuroscience, Mcknight Brain Institute, University of Florida, Gainesville, FL, 32611, USA

 

A R T I C L E I N F O

Article history:

Accepted 21 May 2007

Available online 21 June 2007

 

A B S T R A C T

 

Curcuma longa is a major constituent of Xiaoyao-san, the traditional Chinese medicine,

which has been used to effectively manage stress and depression-related disorders in

China. As the active component of curcuma longa, curcumin possesses many therapeutic

properties; we have previously described its antidepressant activity in our earlier studies

using the chronic unpredictable stress model of depression in rats. Recent studies show that

stress-induced damage to hippocampal neurons may contribute to the phathophysiology of

depression. The aim of this study was to investigate the effects of curcumin on hippocampal

neurogenesis in chronically stressed rats. We used an unpredictable chronic stress

paradigm (20 days) to determine whether chronic curcumin treatment with the effective

doses for behavioral responses (5, 10 and 20 mg/kg, p.o.), could alleviate or reverse the effects

of stress on adult hippocampal neurogenesis. Our results suggested that curcumin

administration (10 and 20 mg/kg, p.o.) increased hippocampal neurogenesis in chronically

stressed rats, similar to classic antidepressant imipramine treatment (10 mg/kg, i.p.). Our

results further demonstrated that these new cells mature and become neurons, as

determined by triple labeling for BrdU and neuronal- or glial-specific markers. In addition,

curcumin significantly prevented the stress-induced decrease in 5-HT1A mRNA and BDNF

protein levels in the hippocampal subfields, two molecules involved in hippocampal

neurogenesis. These results raise the possibility that increased cell proliferation and

neuronal populations may be a mechanism by which curcumin treatment overcomes the

stress-induced behavioral abnormalities and hippocampal neuronal damage. Moreover,

curcumin treatment, via up-regulation of 5-HT1A receptors and BDNF, may reverse or

protect hippocampal neurons from further damage in response to chronic stress, which

may underlie the therapeutic actions of curcumin.

Reference to "Chronic stress and consequent elevated glucocorticoid exposure" is on page 5 of the full article [in pdf form] at:

Curcumin-reverses-impaired-hippocampal-neurogenesis-and...

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compsports

""Curcumin reverses impaired hippocampal neurogenesis and

increases serotonin receptor 1A mRNA and brain-derived

neurotrophic factor expression in chronically stressed rats""

 

Very interesting Brandy.

 

I have been taking curcumin for other reasons not related to having taken psych meds. It looks you have given me another reason to keep taking it.

 

Thanks for posting the link.

 

CS

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Altostrata

Interesting. There was a period in my earlier withdrawal syndrome that I craved Indian food -- spiced with turmeric, which contains curcumin -- and ate a lot of it.

 

This was unusual because prior to withdrawal, it tended to give me indigestion so I didn't eat it that often.

 

After a while, it didn't agree with my stomach, so I stopped.

 

Recently, I've been eating it again, frequently. It's delicious!

 

(You can get curcumin in capsules as a nutritional supplement, you don't have to eat it as turmeric -- but turmeric can be very tasty.)

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Phil

I've been interested in trying this, I've bought some curcumin capsules but haven't tried any yet. Apparently it is more bioavailable if taken with oil or fat. I saw one site mentioning to mix it with dark chocolate.

 

I've also seen a few anecdotal mentions on anxiety sites, people said it reduced their stress levels, one person said it helped their depression.

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Phil

I tried some Curcumin a few days ago. The effects were interesting. I felt my brainfog lift a bit, and more focused, but also more angsty and irritable.

I managed to get a lot of tasks done I had been putting off after taking it.

 

However I wouldnt recommend it. The angsty feeling wasnt pleasant at all.

 

Apparently some people take it for easing pain and inflammation - it certainly helped in that regard.

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Altostrata

Interesting. Maybe cooking with it would be more pleasant -- not as concentrated.

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Tom

A warning to those with Bruxism type problems, Curcumin may make it worse. That was my experience in a short experiment with it years ago, as well as the experience of a few others on another forum. Not trying to be a downer, but thought you should know, if you experience more clenching, grinding, jaw pain, etc., Curcumin could be the culprit.

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Brandy

I tried some Curcumin a few days ago. The effects were interesting. I felt my brainfog lift a bit, and more focused, but also more angsty and irritable.

I managed to get a lot of tasks done I had been putting off after taking it.

 

However I wouldnt recommend it. The angsty feeling wasnt pleasant at all.

 

Apparently some people take it for easing pain and inflammation - it certainly helped in that regard.

 

Phil, what kind of curcumin did you take (i.e., plain curcumin, curcumin with piperine, or the BCM-95 form)? And what dose?

 

Are you completely off all meds? And if so, for how long?

 

Sorry for all the questions, but these things can make a difference when using therapeutic amounts of curcumin (and many supplements).

 

btw, I didn't get angst or irritability with it - just the opposite, I think. But people respond to supplements (and meds!) differently, so I always urge people to start supplements very slowly when in w/d and for quite a while post-psychotropic meds.

 

You're right that's a very effective natural anti-inflammatory. It's worked as well in that respect as many heavy-duty anti-inflammatories for me. But nothing is right for everybody, and even herbs and other supplements need to be used with care.

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hippopotamus

Yes, I've been using it as while, but last week I did some research on it and I found out that it may not be really helpful in the end, because it should be ingested in combination with black pepper, otherwise your body is hardly able to really take it in. The problem with black pepper though is that it slows down the metabolism of all kind of materials, so I figured it would slow down the metabolism of the medication as well. And I'm not sure if that is such a good thing.

 

See:

http://personal.us.es/mlopezlazaro/2010.%20Int%20J%20Cancer.%20The%20dark%20side%20of%20curcumin.pdf

 

quote:

 

Most of the evidence that supports the therapeutic potential of curcumin is mainly based on in vitro studies in which

curcumin was tested at concentrations in the micromolar range. Several reports have demonstrated, however, that the plasma concentrations of curcumin in people taking relatively high oral doses of this compound are very low, typically in the nanomolar range.

 

For instance, a recent study examined the pharmacokinetics of a curcumin preparation in 12 healthy human volunteers 0.25–72 hr after

an oral dose of 10 or 12 g. Using a high-performance liquid chromatography assay with a limit of detection of 50 ng mL

, only 1 subject had detectable free curcumin at any of the time points assayed. The fact that curcumin also undergoes extensive metabolism in intestine and liver means that high concentrations of curcumin cannot be achieved and maintained in plasma and tissues after oral ingestion. This is a major obstacle for the clinical development of this agent and suggests that the therapeutic potential of oral curcumin is limited. The low clinical efciency of curcumin in the treatment of several chronic diseases such as Alzheimer’s disease and cardiovascular diseases has been discussed recently.

 

 

 

'Several strategies have been proposed to overcome the low oral bioavailability of curcumin. One of these strategies has entered clinical trials and consists of using the black pepper alkaloid piperine (bioperine) to increase the bioavailability of curcumin. This strategy, however, should be used

cautiously, as piperine is a potent inhibitor of drug metabolism and may cause toxicity in people taking specic drugs.

8,19,20 In addition, it is important to note that any strategy that increases the levels of curcumin in tissues will not only increase the effectiveness of curcumin, but also its toxicity. '

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peggy

i started curcumin a couple of weeks ago, and have taken it intermittently. I haven't been very consistent as I am not sure about whether it will be helpful or harmful. I have read that it can act as a very weak MAOI - I don't know if taking curcumin whilst coming off a SSRI is helpful - i mean is curcumin going to do what my antidepressant has been doing - that is increasing the serotonin in the synapse, thereby affecting receptors upstream - and therefore slowing down the upregulation? what do people think?

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compsports

i started curcumin a couple of weeks ago, and have taken it intermittently. I haven't been very consistent as I am not sure about whether it will be helpful or harmful. I have read that it can act as a very weak MAOI - I don't know if taking curcumin whilst coming off a SSRI is helpful - i mean is curcumin going to do what my antidepressant has been doing - that is increasing the serotonin in the synapse, thereby affecting receptors upstream - and therefore slowing down the upregulation? what do people think?

 

Hi Peggy,

 

I don't know the answers to your questions but an FYI, taking curcumin caused GI bleeding. I took a very small amount by the way.

 

I am guessing my experience is unusual but still wanted to point out that these supplements aren't harmless.

 

CS

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Outshined

I use a little bit of turmeric daily as a salad dressing. I didn't notice any ill effect, but as I said my "dosage" is very low.

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GiaK

I've been using curcumin to good effect for a long time now....both supplements and the dried spice in my food.

 

recently I switched to fresh whole turmeric root as I've eliminated almost all supplements since I found out about my histamine issues...

 

the whole fresh root is delicious...much milder and delicate than the powdered stuff....it goes well on many many dishes and also is delicious in tea...sometimes I mix it with fresh ginger root in tea...very yum...I add some fresh ground black pepper whenever I use it too since that increases bioavailability.

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Skyler
Posted on: Green Med Info
Friday, July 19th 2013 at 6:30 pm
Written By:
Sayer Ji, Founder

 

A new study published in the journal Phytotherapy Research has confirmed for the first time in a randomized, controlled clinical trial that the primary polyphenol in turmeric known as curcumin is both safe and effective in treating serious states of depression.[1]

 

The research was performed at the Department of Pharmacology, Government Medical College, Bhavnagar, Gujarat, India, and involved patients diagnosed with major depressive disorder (MDD).  The objective of the trial was to compare the efficacy and safety of curcumin with fluoxetine (Prozac) in 60 patients diagnosed with MDD. Subjects were randomized to receive either a six week treatment with fluoxetine (20 mg) and curcumin (1000 mg) individually or their combination.

 

Success of the treatment was evaluated using the 17-item Hamilton Depression Rating Scale (HAM-D17). The results were reported as follows:

We observed that curcumin was well tolerated by all the patients. The proportion of responders as measured by the HAM-D17 scale was higher in the combination group (77.8%) than in the fluoxetine [Prozac] (64.7%) and the curcumin (62.5%) groups; however, these data were not statistically significant (P = 0.58). Interestingly, the mean change in HAM-D17 score at the end of six weeks was comparable in all three groups (P = 0.77). This study provides first clinical evidence that curcumin may be used as an effective and safe modality for treatment in patients with MDD without concurrent suicidal ideation or other psychotic disorders. [emphasis added]

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alexjuice

This is interesting and I would prefer curcumin to Prozac for a loved one who had symptoms of depression.

 

I wonder how many Indian citizens have been exposed to pharmaceutical drugs? A big problem IMO with stateside mental health studies is that it is so difficult to find adults who are truly untainted by psychiatric Rx medications. In most studies a person has 'untreated depression' if they hadn't taken an SSRI or other medication for depression in the preceding 6 weeks to the start of the study...

 

When I knew many people from NAMI, I heard stories about how many members would stop all or some of the medication long enough to 'get in a study' to make some money for meeting ends... I heard of people who had been on dozens of psych meds over decades who would drop their medications for six weeks to get into these studies and those people would be in the 'untreated' group...

 

Obviously the extent of the pharmalogical problem makes the study of said difficult and claims troublesome to evaluate...

 

Maybe this is not a problem in india? However, one should also consider that Indian cuisine is frequently very rich in culinary tumeric...

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Skyler

The article goes on to say the results are based on very limited data.. I just went back to put that part in but the article is no longer avail.  Bummer.

 

Thanks Alex

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Altostrata

I found that capsules containing half turmeric and half ginger settle my stomach, which has become very fizzy lately, when ginger capsules alone did not.

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Martin

I've used curcumin to help with general unhappiness while withdrawing from venlafaxine, it appears to help - my mood has generally been good while withdrawing exept for experiencing a lot of anger on some days. I take it pretty much every day as not taking it means I tend to have a bad day. 

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Rhiannon

I've been drinking soup with a lot of turmeric and pepper the past couple of days due to having a bad cold (hoping it might help with aches and pains)...I think it might be sort of stimulating, for me. I think I may need to stick with smaller amounts. Does anyone else find it too stimulating?

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Brandy

I've been drinking soup with a lot of turmeric and pepper the past couple of days due to having a bad cold (hoping it might help with aches and pains)...I think it might be sort of stimulating, for me. I think I may need to stick with smaller amounts. Does anyone else find it too stimulating?

Hi Rhi! I'm just now seeing this. In fact, didn't follow this thread so many new posts. (My notifications from SA are sporadic and mangled so I often can't tell what they are for some reason. Maybe Edward Snowden might know... lol.)

 

I'll reply to other posts here when I can. But since your post is farily recent I thought I'd mention that although a potent curcumin supplement could cause reactions (though personally I didn't find it stimulating), turmeric is poorly utilized by the body and though pepper helps that a bit, it still is something that is considered to be more preventative than therapeutic in the amounts obtained by eating the actual herb.

 

But if it contains more pepper than you usually eat, that could be the culprit. (I find I can no longer tolerate pepper. Organic or not. Damn.) I also can't tolerate most herbs and spices. (Same re organic status, same "damn.") If the soup contains turmeric, you might want to consider the other spices that might be in it. I miss Indian and so many nationalities' foods so much. I have a lot of organic Indian herbs purchased for therapeutic purposes sitting in my kitchen cupboard. Can't tolerate any of them except probably turmeric, for some reason.)

 

Although I doubt the amount of pepper in soup would be enough to affect your body's utilization of meds, I do want to mention that I've had to warn some people about taking anything with piperine while still on psych meds. There do seem to be some interactions, and I haven't been able to find enough concrete resources to completely sort out which CYP450 enzymes, and therefore which specific meds, would be affected. I have found a lot of interesting resources, but they may be on my old XP computer. (Embarrassed to say I still haven't trarnsferred most of my data from it. Always something more interesting to do.)

 

By the way, since I'm still on clonazepam (and can't tolerate pepper anyway I'm finding). I use the curcumin (most potent/therapeutic component of the actual herb) in the BCM-95 form, which increases bio-availability for therapeutic purposes like piperine, but with no pepper ingredients. But if any form of turmeric may disagree with you, you might be better off avoiding it. Maybe another kind of nutritious soup?

 

I hope your cold is over and that you're feeling better!

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alwayslookup

I am also taking curcumin for some weeks now. But only recently I read about the poor absorbtion problem. So after some research I decided to take it in as a Golden Milk drink. It is very tasty. http://epicureandigest.com/2014/09/11/turmeric-golden-milk-a-life-changing-nourishing-drink/

 

Two important side notes which are rarely said:

 

In addition to taking in with some oil or fat it is VERY important to take it with FRESHLY GROUND pepper. If it is not freshly ground the piperine starts to dissipate after 20 minutes.

 

Another thing which needs more attention is one of the side effects of turmeric, namely that it is blood thinner. Be cautious with this, I had a scary experience the other day. Because I scratched my nose inside the blood started flowing. I managed to stop it but it started again like two times a bit later. The fourth time it started during the night (I was awake fortunately) and it was very hard to stop the flow that time. It seemed that my blood refused to clot. 

 

Now I feel bummed cause I don't want this to happen again but I don't want to stop taking the turmeric for this reason only, because I think it did some wonders for me( I will tell you later about this) I guess I should rather just try to avoid scratching inside my nose again.... :P

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alwayslookup

Did anybody found it to be activating? Should I avoid taking it too late?

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alwayslookup

So after having a very bad experience yesterday after trying Ginseng again this question started to bother me. So I did some research and I found out that Ginseng also acts as MAOi.

After taking Ginseng in the morning yesterday I woke up in the middle of the night in a very manic, restless state. It was very bad and scary. I will never touch Ginseng again.

 

Not to mention that my diet also is high in tyramine (I eat a lot of cheese, bananas, etc) 

And I also used to take Tryptophan supplements in my withdrawal (stopped it a month ago) and according to wikipedia:

 

 

Tryptophan supplements should not be consumed with MAOIs as the potentially fatal serotonin syndrome may result

 

 

What I just found out today is that a lot of natural things also act as a MAOi. Probably the most know is St. John's Wort. Incidentally I also have bad experiences with it when taking it in the past with antidepressants (I had developed serotonin syndrome) I also had bad experience with it in withdrawal. My experience from last night was very similar indeed.

 

But the list is quite long:

http://www.botanical-online.com/english/vegetalmaois.htm

 

I never thought about this before. And what is even more interesting is that there are a few other things that I also take regularly like: Passion Flower (my melatonin supplement contains 50mg), and Turmeric. I drink a cup of Turmeric Golden Milk every day now for a while. And incidentally yesterday I used more turmeric in the milk than I use to. So this may added to the whole experience. I just found out that Turrmeric is actually one of the strongest natural MAOi

 

Considering that these MAOi s are noradrenergic, which is why it causes "mania" -like SNRIs (Just a reminder I was on SNRI for a year....this might also have to do something with it)

 

I never noticed to react badly to turmeric....at least not in a noticeable way. it is possible that this was causing and/or contributing to my general anxiety, insomnia without me noticing it?

Is there a connection?

 

Should I stop taking the Turmeric evev if it has LOADS of other benefits too? (Like boosting BDNF, etc)

 

Opinions?

 

Thanks.

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Meimeiquest

I don't know. I am very sensitive to the SNRI/Wellbutrin stuff as well. Never have tried ginkgo. Have "tumeric tea" most days as a late afternoon pick-me-up and not aware of any problems. But very interesting info, thanks! Personally, I'm going to stick with the tumeric as long as it seems OK, because of all the plusses you mentioned. I also put ginger and cinnamon in it.

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alwayslookup

Yes it would brake my heart if I had to stop turmeric for this reason. It is truly an amazing and unique "food" :D When it comes to recovery and brain regeneration I think this is the supplement that I have the highest hope for. And I have good reasons why.

 

I also put cinnamon in my Turmeric Golden Milk and I eat a banana alongs with it. It is very YUMM! :) 

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Altostrata

Try any supplements with caution.

 

Please see our topics on St. John's Wort, turmeric, ginger etc.

 

The neuroactive herbs such as St. John's Wort, ginseng, and valerian may very well add to problems for someone sensitized by withdrawal.

 

In my opinion, flavoring herbs such as ginger, turmeric, saffron, etc. are not that much of a problem.

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alwayslookup

I did read those topics. I won't touch St. John's Worth, Ginseng, Valerian, and any neuroactive herb again. I reacted badly to all of them. 

I am not sure if that amount of Passion Flower in my melatonin supplement is an issue or not. I was looking for a melatonin supplement without it but those all come in 3mg tablets which is a bit too much for me. (Actually I am taking 1,5mg plus 0.5 in an interval of 3 hours before bed) but I guess I can cut those tablets somehow. 

I think after all it will be a good idea to get rid of all these neuroactive herbs just to be sure (even that 50mg of PassionFlower)

 

Glad to hear that I can stick with the Turmeric :)

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Altostrata

If you haven't had a bad reaction to the passionflower in your melatonin, don't worry about it.

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MatGMax

I'm trying it now. I got a big curry on the stove with 5 teaspoons of turmeric and 1/2 teaspoon of black pepper (plus onion, garlic and home grown silver beet, tomoto and chilis).

 

I bought turmeric labelled organic at the health food shop.

I've that turmeric can have lead chromate added to give it more colour!

Needless to say it is not a good thing!

 

Cheers

 

Damien

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mcc2929

After going through diet-induced chronic fatigue, a neck injury, an adverse reaction (to put it mildly) to the combination of NyQuil and Cymbalta, and edema, my acupuncturist bought me a package of turmeric root. He said to eat about half an inch to an inch (he described it as the width of a nickel) of the peeled root a day. When I told him about starting my taper, 17 years of psychiatric drug use, and previous severe withdrawals, he reiterated ingesting turmeric root daily. He said the root is stronger and more potent than the powder (spice). Here is a link that describes proven benefits of this plant. See #4 for brain benefits and how it boosts levels of the hormone BDNF, which increases the growth of new neurons.

 

http://authoritynutrition.com/top-10-evidence-based-health-benefits-of-turmeric/

 

I found a turmeric and ginger loose tea at a local tea and spice shop, which I'm really enjoying. On a side note, I've been eating candied ginger for the past year when I'm nauseous. It really helps me =)

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antidepressantsNoMore

I megadosed tumeric for a while. I bought purtian pride's turmeric. I had like 10 bottles. I would take 10-12 grams at one time.

 

I noticed a huge improvement in mood. I was also less depressed and anxious. I used it for a couple months and then stopped.

 

Other good supplement for anxiety is N-A-C . I don't take it anymore but it helps a lot of people.

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Laura1981

Hey antidepressantsNoMore,

 

did you have any issues stopping the tumeric after megadosing? Mood crash or anything?

 

Cheers,

 

Laura

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Petunia

I recently started taking this again for inflammation and stiffness in my right knee.  I'm tolerating it ok and my knee is getting better.

 

I'm taking 500mg per day of Doctor's Best Curcumin C3 Complex with BioPerine.

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indigo

I've been taking  1800 mg curcumin for about six months. It definitely has helped with arthritis and my mood also seems improved.

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mammaP

I've bought some turmeric root and came to find out how to take it and how much.  If it causes blood to thin I'll wait until after surgery next week.

One thing I discovered is not to grate it without  gloves, my fingers are still yellow 2 days after grating some into a stir fry! 

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