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mandance

Advice from Dr. Ray Peat on getting over antidepressants faster

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mandance
Keeping the metabolic rate and cholesterol up is important, so that repair and adaptation will be quick. Progesterone reduces pain and anxiety, and pregnenolone would be the most convenient supplement for men, but it's hard to find products without allergens. Combining progesterone and DHEA or testosterone can produce the stabilizing effect without suppressing the libido. Benadryl and cyproheptadine are probably both helpful. Withdrawal from morphine and SSRIs and migraine involve some similar processes.
 
Psychopharmacologia 1973, Volume 28, Issue 2, pp 165-170
Suppression of the drug-induced morphine withdrawal syndrome by cyproheptadine
    Klaus Opitz, Ingrid Reimann
In rats treated with gradually increasing amounts of morphine hydrochloride until they tolerated fatal doses, levallorphan precipitated acute body weight loss and elicited a variety of other typical withdrawal symptoms. Cyproheptadine markedly reduced this b.w. loss and abolished the drug-induced withdrawal syndrome. Fenfluramine also suppressed the major signs of the levallorphan-induced morphine withdrawal; however the combination of the three drugs proved to be very toxic. Since both agents interfere with different hypothalamic feeding mechanisms these results are accordant with the hypothesis of Kerr and Pozuelo (1971) that morphine dependence and tolerance are due to a functional disorganization of the hypothalamic centers concerned wit the regulation of food intake.
Psychopharmacologia Psychopharmacologia Look
 
Acta Physiol Pharmacol Bulg. 1976;2(2):68-74.
Pharmacological analysis of certain mechanisms of morphine addiction.
Ovcharov R, Bantoutova I, Kobourova K.
The effects of L-Dopa, Methysergid, Diphenhydramine hydrochloride and LSD on the development of morphine dependence and the abstience syndrome after its withdrawal, were tested in experiments on 200 male Wistar albino rats. L-Dopa had no efect on the development of physical morphine dependence, while Methysergid prevented its development. Applied in rats during the abstinence syndrome, LSD intensified their aggressivity with no influence on the analgesic effect of morphine. Diphenhydramine reduced the aggressiveness of the rats during the abstinence syndrome. Biochemical tests show that in morphine-tolerant rats there was an increase in the content of brain serotonin, less of dopamine and no changes in noradrenaline. The significance of the brain levels of serotonin, dopamine and noradrenaline for the development of physical morphine-dependence is discussed. It is pointed out that serotonin and dopamine play an important role both for the origin of the physical morphine dependence, and in the abstinence syndrome after its withdrawal.
 
Drug Alcohol Depend. 1976 Feb;1(3):221-39.
Central serotonergic mechanisms and development of morphine dependence.
Blasig J, Papeschi R, Gramsch C, Herz A.
The effects of different manipulations of brain serotonin (5-HT) content on the
development of morphine dependence were investigated in rats, which were
implanted with morphine pellets for 40 days. Serotonin content was decreased by
(a) short or long term inhibition of tryptophan hydroxylase with
para-chlorophenylalanine (PCPA), (B) by short or long term degeneration of 5-HT
containing nerve terminals with 5,6-dihydroxytryptamine or © by degeneration of
5-HT containing nerve terminals by lesioning of midbrain raphe nuclei. With all
methods used, the frequency of withdrawal jumping was significantly reduced,
while other withdrawal signs remained more or less unchanged. Additional
administration of 5-HTP to chronically PCPA treated rats did not reverse the PCPA
effect. Since chronic reduction of 5-HT level during the whole time of morphine
exposure changed withdrawal symptomatology in nearly the same way as did a
decrease in 5-HT level during the time of withdrawal only, it is suggested that
serotonergic mechanisms are not linked to the basic processes underlying
dependence development but that they are only involved in the nervous pathways
mediating the expression of some withdrawal signs.
 
PMID: 138583  [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 
Clin Exp Pharmacol Physiol. 1976 Nov-Dec;3(6):587-98.
Physical dependence in the rat induced by slow release morphine: dose-response,
time course and brain biogenic amines.
Laska JF, Fennessy MR.
1. Physical dependence was induced in rats by administration of a slow release
morphine emulsion (morphine SR), and assessed by scoring abstinence signs and
temperature changes after i.p. administration of naloxone (5 mg/kg). Three groups
of rats received doses of 75, 100 or 150 mg/kg of morphine SR. Dependence was
evaluated in each of these groups after 24, 48 and 72 h. 2. The effect of these
treatments at the different times on brain levels of serotonin,
5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid, noradrenaline and dopamine was determined. 3. A
ceiling level of dependence was reached 24 h after 75 and 100 mg/kg and 48 h
after 150 mg/kg of morphine SR. 4. These different treatments produced no
significant effect on the brain levels of noradrenaline, dopamine or serotonin.
The levels of 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid were significantly raised in
morphine-dependent rats and the changes correlated well with the changes in
abstinence behaviour and temperature after naloxone. 5. The results suggest that 
a relationship exists between serotonin turnover and physical dependence on
morphine.
 
Naunyn Schmiedebergs Arch Pharmacol. 2002 Mar;365(3):210-9. Epub 2002 Feb 1.
Supersensitivity of 5-HT1A autoreceptors and alpha2-adrenoceptors regulating
monoamine synthesis in the brain of morphine-dependent rats.
Sastre-Coll A, Esteban S, García-Sevilla JA.
Laboratory of Neuropharmacology, Associate Unit of the Institute Cajal/CSIC,
Department of Biology, University of the Balearic Islands, Cra. Valldemossa Km
7.5, 07071 Palma de Mallorca, Spain.
The sensitivity of 5-HT1A serotonin receptors and alpha2-adrenoceptors
(autoreceptors and heteroreceptors) modulating brain monoamine synthesis was
investigated in rats during morphine treatment and after naloxone-precipitated
withdrawal. The accumulation of 5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP) and
3,4-dihydroxyphenylalanine (DOPA) after decarboxylase inhibition was used as a
measure of the rate of tryptophan and tyrosine hydroxylation in vivo. Acute
morphine (3-100 mg/kg, 1 h) increased the synthesis of 5-HTP/5-HT in various
brain regions (15%-35%) and that of DOPA/dopamine (DA) in striatum (28%-63%), but
decreased the synthesis of DOPA/noradrenaline (NA) in hippocampus and cortex
(20%-33%). Naloxone (2-60 mg/kg, 1 h) did not alter the synthesis of 5-HTP or
DOPA in brain. Tolerance to the inhibitory effect of morphine on DOPA/NA
synthesis and a sensitization to its stimulatory effects on DOPA/DA and
5-HTP/5-HT synthesis were observed after chronic morphine and/or in
morphine-withdrawn rats. In morphine-dependent rats (tolerant and withdrawn
states) the inhibitory effects of the 5-HT1A agonists 8-OH-DPAT and buspirone
(0.1 mg/kg, 1 h), and that of the alpha2-adrenoceptor agonist clonidine (0.1
mg/kg, 1 h), on the synthesis of 5-HTP/5-HT were potentiated (25%-50%). Moreover,
the effect of 8-OH-DPAT was antagonized by WAY 100135, a selective 5-HT1A
antagonist. In morphine-dependent rats (tolerant state), the inhibitory effects
of clonidine on the synthesis of DOPA/NA (hippocampus, hypothalamus) and DOPA/DA 
(striatum) also were potentiated (35%-55%). In summary, we conclude that morphine
addiction is associated with supersensitivity of 5-HT1A serotonin receptors and
alpha2-adrenoceptors (autoreceptors and heteroreceptors) that modulate the
synthesis of monoamines in brain.
 
Psychopharmacology (Berl). 1979 Oct;65(2):205-9.
Morphine abstinence and serotonin supersensitivity in man: analogies with the
mechanism of migraine?
Sicuteri F, Del Bianco PL, Anselmi B.
Supersensitivity to serotonin during migraine attack has been previously
observed. Since the attack has been attributed to a critical lowering of
morphine-like factors, we can expect serotonin supersensitivity during morphine
abstinence. Slight signs of morphine abstinence have also been induced in
volunteers after mild (10-24 mg/day) and limited (3 days) treatment. To evaluate 
the sensitivity to serotonin, dopamine, noradrenaline, and tyramine in the smooth
muscle of the hand dorsal vein, in vivo, the computerized venotest was applied
before, during, and 24 h after withdrawal of morphine. Venous sensitivity to
serotonin and dopamine (but not to noradrenaline and tyramine) increased 10- to
20-fold after morphine withdrawal. Venous monoamine supersensitivity in morphine 
abstinence, similar to that observed during migraine attacks, could be indirect
evidence of an analogous mechanism in both conditions.
 
Agents Actions. 1975 Dec;5(5):476-83.
The possible role of brain histamine and H1 and H2 receptors in the development
of morphine tolerance and physical dependence in mice.
Wong CL, Roberts MB.
The possible role of brain histamine in the mechanisms of morphine tolerance and 
physical dependence is under investigation in mice. L-histidine and histamine,
given during the 'withdrawal' phase, significantly increase tolerance to the
analgesic effects of morphine but reduce the degree of physical dependence.
Metiamide significantly inhibits tolerance but has no consistent effect on
physical dependence. These results suggest that H2 receptors may be involved in
the development of morphine tolerance. Mepyramine does not significantly affect
tolerance, and with regard to dependence there is an effect only on body weight
loss, which is increased. However, combined treatment with metiamide and
mepyramine inhibits tolerance significantly more than metiamide alone; and
withdrawal jumping is also reduced more significantly by combined treatment than 
by the separate administration of these drugs. It is suggested that brain
histamine is definitely implicated in the mechanisms of the 'withdrawal' phase of
morphine tolerance and physical dependence in mice, with H2 receptors probably
playing the more important part.
 
Adv Biochem Psychopharmacol. 1980;22:523-33.
Dopamine and 5-HT supersensitivity in nonorganic central pain and in morphine
abstinence: fortuitous or renal analogy?
Sicuteri F, Anselmi B, Del Bianco PL.
Unexplained pain, such as central panalgesia, might be the most common clinical
expression of a deficiency, central in nature, of the endorphin system. Acute
natural opioid deficiency is comparable to morphine withdrawal in addicts
characterized by vegetative, psychic disorder and the appearance of pain. An
impressive supersensitivity (up to 1000 fold) to dopamine and 5-HT of the smooth 
muscle (hand dorsal vein: venotest) is detected both in central panalgesia
sufferers and in addicts during spontaneous (withdrawal) or pharmacological
(naloxone) abstinence. A 5-HT and dopamine supersensitivity, of less intensity,
however, (10-30 fold), is found during migraine attacks: on these occasions,
morphine-like factors in CSF appear reduced or undetectable, reinforcing the
chemical analogy between morphine abstinence and migraine attacks. In the present
study, evidence of opiate receptors in the human vein is also provided: 5-HT
venospasms, inhibited by morphine, promptly emerge when naloxone is inoculated
locally.
 
Headache. 1976 Sep;16(4):145-59.
Hypothesis: migraine, a central biochemical dysnociception.
Sicuteri F.
 
Headache. 1979 May;19(4):232-3.
Phenomenal similarities of migraine and morphine abstinence.
Sicuteri F.

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alexjuice

This looks like Ray Peat swinging widly and wrecklessly. I would never follow this advice in a million years. I am pretty familiar with Peat and his views on serontonin and diet but I think he has outsmarted himself with this try...

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mandance

What do you mean?

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alexjuice

Combining progesterone and DHEA or testosterone and/or Benadryl and/or cyproheptadine is probably not helpful. If I had to guess, that is... This sounds very theoretical and the type of reductionist genius that got people like me here in the first place. The human metabolism is very complicated and injecting hormones left and right seems a very unwise thing to me. Have people have used this method with success?

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mandance

I am a member at the raypeat forums and many people there have very good health because of ray peats theories. Also...in regards to your question...he just wrote me this:

 

I knew someone who had been addicted to morphine and alcohol for 30 years, who was drinking quarts of beer and wine daily when he didn't have morphine, who had an opportunity for a good job if he could get sober. Starting progesterone at bedtime (and stopping the wine), he said it was the first time he didn't have a hangover in the morning. He used enough progesterone to neuter most people, but said it didn't affect his sex function; he was taking a lot of Cytomel and magnesium, but wasn't drunk again as long as I knew him, and his general health improved.

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mandance

Following ray peat is a tricky game though, that does require experimenting and careful observation...it is trial and error but ive seen many people overcome crazy medical problems from following advice to take thryoid supplements and do other things to boost metablism.

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alexjuice

I am not against Peat per se. I've read a number of his articles and find him interesting. I would not take the advice myself... I don't think alcohol or opiates are a good comp for SNRI w/d for the reasons that Rhi explained having to do with biological adaptation over time. Many human populations, excepting certain ethnic groups, have had exposure to alcohol for millenia... And opiates are simply much less complicated a detox... And I've been to four rehabs between 04 and 08 so I've seen a lot of folks detox opiates, alcohol and benzos...

 

Listen, all of this is a long way of saying... I wouldn't take this advice. If you do, please let us know how it goes.

 

Good luck.

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mandance

I respect that. Hey would you say its harder for people to come off of Benzos? I hear its worse than SSRIs but then again..I dont know for sure. I just ask because I randomly met this father...his son is 29,,got off benzos 3 years ago...he abused the crap out of them for like 7 years....hes still couch locked from problems.

 

The Ray Peat diet is pretty solid though...coconut oil is good for the thyroid, and if the thryoid is working well, your metabolism will work well and then everything works well. A lot of people are weary of ray peats advice...but ive seen it help many people. Ive seen people take cynoplus, fix many long standing health issues.

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alexjuice

I believe people have benefitted from Ray Peat's dietary advice, absolutely.

 

I don't know what is worse to come off of... I think it depends. Benzos can be as bad as anything. Again it depends on the circumstances.

 

One thing I believe about any of the psych drugs is that the withdrawal experience is very individual and the variance is huge. So it's very undermining to hear from people who took 25mg of valium everyday for a decade then went to a week long detox and got off it, suffered only minorly and then this person sings how the benzo sufferers are whiners and getting off of them is really not that hard...

 

Do you follow Peat's dietary advice?

 

I have had some problems with coconut oil but I believe it can be a good food. It's actually very very helpful for recovery from bacterial and viral infections according to some accounts I've read. It may be helpful to a degree with other infections but it's also possible, in the case of extracellular pathogenic diseases that the coconut oil nourishes the parasite... I agree cocount oil is generally a healthful food for what appear to be many reasons...

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mandance

Yeah, I try to follow his advice as much as possible. I take in a lot of sugar from Orange juice, and a lot of milk. Also take in gelatin...cook everything in coconut oil as well as daily carrot salad with coconut oil really helped with my mild crohns disease problems. I have digestion problems so the carrot salad helps for inflammation.

 

The coconut oil is great for thyroid as well. Peat recommends people eating liver once a week, I dont do it though so I am missing out on some important things here and there. I think one of the main things about Peat eating though, is to avoid PUFAS (poly unsaturated fatty acids) basically all vegatable oils, or any oils that are not coconut or olive oil...it sortuv sucks though because that basically means...no restauraunt food, unless I ask them to cook my food in pure butter.

 

That stuff is highly toxic and reeks havok on the body long term and stays in the fat cells so it can take years to clear it out.

 

Peat eating is actually pretty easy overall...I feel very good on it and satisfied and I am more in tune now with what my body wants mroe so than ever. I was on a paleo diet for years before...got in great shape from it...but I think it actually caused more problems for me long term and I think a lack of carbs and sugars to be pretty bad for thyroid and metabolism.

 

Funny thing is...I consume a ton of carbs and sugar now...and still keep the weight off. My body seems to be metabolizing much better now. But yeah, coconut oil is huge....its a big staple in that realm.

 

Ive even seen guys bring their testosterone from basically nothing, to through the roof again by eating PEat and supplementing thyroid medications. And reap a lot of other benefits from it. Also take a lot more salt now also, seems to help with anxiety..you can take it in a form of lithium orotate also.

 

Although my diet sucks now that I have no appetite so I just drink milk and OJ all day and I will eat ice cream. Haagen Daaz is pretty good for you because its the only brand that doesnt use any chemicals or gums in it. The vaninalla literally has 5 ingredients all natural...only problem is it is a bit high in fat so you gotta watch your weight but comng off these pills I notice one thing

 

the more sugar I take in, the better I feel. Drinking a lot of orange juice seems to make a big difference in how I feel. And oddly I have been craving it more since getting off pills....The brain can probably really use a lot of sugar going through the changes. Selenium would be beneficial also, but I currently do not eat any shellfish like I should or take a supp for it. So I have holes in my game so to speak.

 

You should join the forums https://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/index.php its a small group, everyone is super nice and very very knowledgable about a wide range of health issues, diet and phisiology. I have learned a lot there and I think it can be a great aid in also dealing with the mental health side of things and getting off pills.

 

 

Also, Ray Peat responds to emails...im sure if there is something you have been having trouble with and cant find the proper information, Ray might be able to give some insight. He does regular newsletters also, and they are usually always very interesting.

 

I feel pretty confident overall with that way of eating because it is indeed very pro metabolism and anti inflammation. With those 2 things going for you, you can almost become disease proof to a certain extent. But there is much to the diet. Check out the forums, its good stuff. Start drinking more OJ and see if it makes you feel any better.

 

I think the main thing I hated about paleo, and this was my body screaming at me the entire time...it was begging me for carbs and it was begging me for sugar. Hope that helps

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alexjuice

I don't consume any fruit juice due to blood sugar problems. I can't say that I have all the answers for the proper diet. I eat vastly different than I did a few years ago because I have developed food intolerances. I agree with the idea that each of us has complicated situations which benefit from different diets...

 

Thanks for the link. I will check out the forum.

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Altostrata

Re post #1 -- mandance, where does Ray Peat say this? All such pronouncements MUST be accompanied by a link or full citation so the reader can assess the context.

 

I cannot see how treating morphine withdrawal applies to antidepressant withdrawal syndrome. Ultimately, it seems you (or Ray Peat) is recommending trial-and-error with some very powerful substances.

 

As it's entirely speculative, I'm moving this topic from the Journals section, which is for scientific research pertaining to psychiatric drug withdrawal, to Controversies.

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compsports

Thank you Alto for your vigalance in this area. Not to criticize Mandance because I definitely understand the desperation in wanting relief.  But I am really tired of alternative health providers trying to take advantage of our desperation by peddling unproven theories in which the solution is extemely expensive supplements that can in many cases make things alot worse.

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Altostrata

Let's keep all of Ray Peat's theories about serotonin and antidepressants in this topic.Note: The chemical imbalance theory is not any more valid for alternative medicine than it is for allopathic medicine.

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btdt

I am looking around trying to get a handle on Amines... and how they relate to antidpressants... and a search brought me to this page tho I thought I had talk to Gianni sorry if the name is wrong I can`t do names well... 

 

I thought we talked about lidocaine (which is an Amine)... in the low histamine diet thread but I cannot find it.

 

I wanted to add this new link to the page.

 

 

Changes in amine metabolism produced by antidepressant drugs
  • [*]
G.W. Ashcroft,  [*]D. Eccleston,  [*]F. Knight,  [*]Elizabeth J. McDougall,  [*]J.L. Waddell

 
Choose an option to locate/access this article:
Check if you have access through your login credentials or your institution
Check access
 
 
  • Posted Image
Abstract

The hypothesis is advanced that depressive illness occurs when the level of amines is reduced at reactive sites in the brain, and that anti-depressant drugs will be those which increase the levels of amines at these sites.

The evidence for the mechanisms of potentiation of peripheral effects of amines by mono-amine oxidase inhibitors, imipramine and amphetamine, is reviewed and the presence of multiple effects of single drugs on amine metabolism acknowledge.

The mechanisms by wchich toxic effects are produced by single drugs and combination is examined.

Preliminary evidence for an effect of amitriptyline on the pattern of excretion of injected tryptamine in man is presented.

 
So I have put it here even tho it may not belong here because this is the first page I get when I search Amines... I am sorry if I am making a mess I need to put it someplace so I don`t lose it. I tend to falter quickly when I do so may not be able to maintain focus long enough to find the appropriate thread....  

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btdt

All I know is dental drugs have been reacting on me for years and lidocaine seems to be the cause of it.. which is an amine. 

the last reaction was scary very scary... the effects lasted a few months.  it is not just an in chair dental issue... I am trying to figure out what went on before I have to have any more dental work. 

 

I have had drug testing to see if I am alergic... when they did the test I got a pain in my head shorly after the drug was given a very small dose... 

 

But that was all... 

so I was told that day at the hosp where I had the test that I had a TIA which is a transient ischemic attach... it just by a fluke happened at the same moment I was given a lidocaine injections... I am not so trusting and still fear this med.... tho they are not apt to listen to me and i know I will be given it again at the next dental apt. 

 

As I can`t find the problem maybe because I don`t know where to look or maybe there isn`t one but if there is I would like to know  I just can`t find much on amines and ssri snri use... how they relate or inter relate... 

I stopped having dental freezing with epinephrine long ago as we guessed that was causing my reaction so that is not what keeps happening now... as I have not had the epi in years.

 

If anyone has this problem too please contact me. thanks.

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btdt

I was hoping somebody would know about this I guess not. 

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