Barbarannamated Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Another theory is that getting off throws the brain in a psychosis-like state which actually does the damage. I got psychotic after 4-5 months off. Could someone please elaborate on this theory and provide resources such as links to substantiate it?This may be the missing piece of the puzzle I've been looking for all this time. I have a little trouble with "psychosis-like state". From what I understand, psychosis is a clear break with reality. That said, I have definitely felt like I was on a slippery slope throughout this - the perceptual distortions are very strong and cause an unrealness that is frightening. Judgment is tweaked. Perception of time is off - one day will go so s-l-o-w-l-y I feel I can hear every second tick by. Other days fly by, regardless of activity/busyness. I like the flybys. I don't mean to minimize this, but caution the use of the term "psychosis". That could get a new diagnosis and new medication. Pristiq tapered over 8 months ending Spring 2011 after 18 years of polydrugging that began w/Zoloft for fatigue/general malaise (not mood). CURRENT: 1mg Klonopin qhs (SSRI bruxism), 75mg trazodone qhs, various hormonesLitigation for 11 years for Work-related injury, settled 2004. Involuntary medical retirement in 2001 (age 39). 2012 - brain MRI showing diffuse, chronic cerebrovascular damage/demyelination possibly vasculitis/cerebritis. Dx w/autoimmune polyendocrine failure.<p>2013 - Dx w/CNS Sjogren's Lupus (FANA antibodies first appeared in 1997 but missed by doc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Altostrata Posted July 13, 2012 Administrator Share Posted July 13, 2012 I've never heard of this "psychosis-like state" theory. Perhaps Claudius can clarify. I agree with Barb. As far as I know, it's not psychosis, it's autonomic nervous system dysfunction. It would be a very long hypothetical stretch to call it psychosis, or indeed any psychiatric disorder. In fact, adverse effects are often misdiagnosed as bipolar disorder and medicated unmercifully with all kinds of drug cocktails, much to the detriment of the patient. In an alternative universe inhabited by some psychiatrists, psychosis lives next door to bipolar disorder. But adverse effects are none of the above. 1 This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebelMaven Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 I'm interested in this part: Another theory is that getting off throws the brain in a psychosis-like state which actually does the damage. I want to know if sudden withdrawal that lasted several months can lead to permanent damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Altostrata Posted July 13, 2012 Administrator Share Posted July 13, 2012 Nobody has been able to answer that. We know for a fact that people do recover from prolonged withdrawal syndrome. It can take years, but they do recover. 1 This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebelMaven Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Oh My God. This is NOT happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jr1985 Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Does Dr Shipko try to taper someone off their current AD, using the 10% 3-6 weeks rule, and just stop if it gets bad? Or does he try the Prozac bridge, etc before giving up? 2003-2011: Paroxetine,Citalopram,Effexor; Aug/Sept 2011: Effexor to Mirtazapine; Oct 2011: C/T Mirtazapine back to Effexor; Nov/Dec 2011: Fast Tapered Effexor - w/d hell; Feb 2012: Reinstated Effexor 37.5mg; June 2012: Dropped to 35.6mg; Jan 2016: Propranolol 2.5mg per day for general anxiety; Feb 2016: Finasteride 0.25mg per week to slow hair loss; 18th May - 8th June 2019: Started Vyvanse 7.5mg and increased by 7.5mg weekly to 30mg (lowest “therapeutic” dose for adults).; 21st June 2019 - 12th July: Cross tapered from venlafaxine brand Rodomel to Efexor (1/4 > 1/2 > 3/4 weekly before ditching Rodomel); 13th July 2019: Cut Vyvanse dose to 15mg; 15th July 2019: Akathisia returned after years of being free; 16th July 2019: Went back up to Vyvanse 30mg Supplements: Omega-3, Vitamin D, Zinc, Phosphatidylserine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Altostrata Posted July 13, 2012 Administrator Share Posted July 13, 2012 All of the above. He's very skilled at tapering. This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claudius Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 I see to my pleasure that dr. Shipko has joined the board. I send him a mail last year and his reaction was the one that my neurologist convinced that there was at least a probability of persistend withdrawal effects from Paxil. So I want to welcome him to the board and thank him for his help. I hope more doctors will join and hope that something will change. 10 mg Paxil/Seroxat since 2002 several attempts to quit since 2004 Quit c/t again Oktober 2007, in protracted w/d since then after 3.5 years slight improvement but still on the road after 6 years pretty much recovered but still some nasty residual sypmtons after 8.5 years working again on a 90% base and basically functioning normally again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claudius Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 I've never heard of this "psychosis-like state" theory. Perhaps Claudius can clarify. I agree with Barb. As far as I know, it's not psychosis, it's autonomic nervous system dysfunction. It would be a very long hypothetical stretch to call it psychosis, or indeed any psychiatric disorder. In fact, adverse effects are often misdiagnosed as bipolar disorder and medicated unmercifully with all kinds of drug cocktails, much to the detriment of the patient. In an alternative universe inhabited by some psychiatrists, psychosis lives next door to bipolar disorder. But adverse effects are none of the above. This "theory" was just a thought of mine. I got off about 5-6 times and got terribly sick but felt perfectly well again weeks after reinstating. In fact too well, because I was not triggered to do my investigation for which I paid a terrible price. But my thought was that the damage is not done immediately because in that case, reinstating would not take the symptoms away. It took a few months after my final quit that I start to hallucinate, and my worst trauma from the past (about bullying) rose its ugly head and nearly drove me to murder. I think back of that period as a form of psychosis. But is is a speculation, nothing more. I am now over 4.5 years post CT and still not recovered although there is still progression and I guess I will finally heal from it, at least physically/neurologically. If the damage to my career is repairable is still uncertain after being completely unable to work for years and still not able to embark in a fulltime job. Dr. Shipko tells that he is not able to treat people who are already too long in WD, past the point of reinstatating and that means I still did the right thing by not reinstating when WD did not subside after months though I first promised myself to "give it one half year", and later "give it one year", but when I still felt miserable after a year I did not reinstate because, though still totally unaware of protracted WD, I realized that these was NOT my original condition and the had to be some connection with my Paxil use. Moreover, I know that if I would reinstate after one year suffering, that would be my final surrender to PAxil and in that case I would have preferred death. Maybe I still saved my life by listening to that realization... 10 mg Paxil/Seroxat since 2002 several attempts to quit since 2004 Quit c/t again Oktober 2007, in protracted w/d since then after 3.5 years slight improvement but still on the road after 6 years pretty much recovered but still some nasty residual sypmtons after 8.5 years working again on a 90% base and basically functioning normally again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebelMaven Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Dr. Shipko tells that he is not able to treat people who are already too long in WD, past the point of reinstatating.... ....I know that if I would reinstate after one year suffering, that would be my final surrender to PAxil and in that case I would have preferred death. So protracted withdrawal is why the drug no longer works to reinstate. How long of a protracted withdrawal would it take before the drug could not be reinstated? I know that no matter what happens I know I will find peace in the end. Either I will die from a seizure while in withdrawal or I will go so psychotic that I don't know what I am doing and I'll kill myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Altostrata Posted July 14, 2012 Administrator Share Posted July 14, 2012 It's unclear what the window for reinstatement is. The sooner, the better. The longer, the more iffy. This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebelMaven Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 It's unclear what the window for reinstatement is. The sooner, the better. The longer, the more iffy. So after the SDS for two months they put me on the Prozac and tapered me back up. I did not respond to 20mg so they went to 40mg. I wonder if this will make SSRI withdrawal harder next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Altostrata Posted July 14, 2012 Administrator Share Posted July 14, 2012 Your complex history with being overmedicated and going on and off drugs has completely changed the landscape. There's no way to predict how it will go. Your system has probably been sensitized so you should plan to wean off Prozac very slowly. This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebelMaven Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 Your complex history with being overmedicated and going on and off drugs has completely changed the landscape. There's no way to predict how it will go. Your system has probably been sensitized so you should plan to wean off Prozac very slowly. Yes, you are quite correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbarannamated Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 Dr. Shipko tells that he is not able to treat people who are already too long in WD, past the point of reinstatating.... I've left 2 email messages with Dr. S over the last month+ to try to get appointment and received no response. Several months ago he responded very quickly to a general message,. not request for appointment. I hope it's not because of being too far out/protracted. I will call. Pristiq tapered over 8 months ending Spring 2011 after 18 years of polydrugging that began w/Zoloft for fatigue/general malaise (not mood). CURRENT: 1mg Klonopin qhs (SSRI bruxism), 75mg trazodone qhs, various hormonesLitigation for 11 years for Work-related injury, settled 2004. Involuntary medical retirement in 2001 (age 39). 2012 - brain MRI showing diffuse, chronic cerebrovascular damage/demyelination possibly vasculitis/cerebritis. Dx w/autoimmune polyendocrine failure.<p>2013 - Dx w/CNS Sjogren's Lupus (FANA antibodies first appeared in 1997 but missed by doc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jr1985 Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 I really hope he's wrong when he says there are some people who can never come off their antidepressant. I also hope I'm not one of them. 2003-2011: Paroxetine,Citalopram,Effexor; Aug/Sept 2011: Effexor to Mirtazapine; Oct 2011: C/T Mirtazapine back to Effexor; Nov/Dec 2011: Fast Tapered Effexor - w/d hell; Feb 2012: Reinstated Effexor 37.5mg; June 2012: Dropped to 35.6mg; Jan 2016: Propranolol 2.5mg per day for general anxiety; Feb 2016: Finasteride 0.25mg per week to slow hair loss; 18th May - 8th June 2019: Started Vyvanse 7.5mg and increased by 7.5mg weekly to 30mg (lowest “therapeutic” dose for adults).; 21st June 2019 - 12th July: Cross tapered from venlafaxine brand Rodomel to Efexor (1/4 > 1/2 > 3/4 weekly before ditching Rodomel); 13th July 2019: Cut Vyvanse dose to 15mg; 15th July 2019: Akathisia returned after years of being free; 16th July 2019: Went back up to Vyvanse 30mg Supplements: Omega-3, Vitamin D, Zinc, Phosphatidylserine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
compsports Posted July 15, 2012 Author Share Posted July 15, 2012 I really hope he's wrong when he says there are some people who can never come off their antidepressant. I also hope I'm not one of them. If you need encouragement, I got off of 4 psych meds. I am not going to lie and say it was easy. Just take it very slowly. Barb, keep us posted about Dr. Shipko. Many doctors seem to be bad about responding to email so hopefully, that is what you encountered. CS Drug cocktail 1995 - 2010 Started taper of Adderall, Wellbutrin XL, Remeron, and Doxepin in 2006 Finished taper on June 10, 2010 Temazepam on a PRN basis approximately twice a month - 2014 to 2016 Beginning in 2017 - Consumption increased to about two times per week April 2017 - Increased to taking it full time for insomnia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Altostrata Posted September 21, 2012 Administrator Share Posted September 21, 2012 Recently had a conversation with Dr. Stuart Shipko. He believes recovery from psych drug-induced neurotoxicity can take up to 8 years. About benzo withdrawal: He challenges Ashton's received wisdom that a crossover to diazepam is standard procedure. He said some people can't tolerate the crossover. He wrote the e-book to explain you can directly taper from an benzo without the transfer. He contradicts Ashton's resistance to holding or updosing (this may be where the weird misinterpretation of "tolerance withdrawal" comes from. He said she inherited this position from heroin withdrawal procedures, in which you NEVER want to give the addict more of the drug. He also opposes Ashton's recommendation of using an antidepressant to counter benzo withdrawal. He said all his anxiety patients got worse on antidepressants. 1 This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Altostrata Posted September 21, 2012 Administrator Share Posted September 21, 2012 Dr. Shipko has a series of 11 (undated) interviews on Power Surge, "A Warm and Caring Community for Women in Menopause" Among other subjects, he discusses benzo and antidepressant side effects and withdrawal. The most recent is here http://www.power-surge.com/transcripts/shipko11.htm , with links to the other transcripts at the bottom. 1 This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woof Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 Does Dr. Shipko currently understand AD destabilization and the time limititations on reinstatement? Does Dr. Shipko currently understand AD destabilization and the time limititations (if any) on updosing? Is there a consensus on these two topics per others who are knowledgeable on these issues (eg Dr. Healy) or others who are knowledgeable ? If on a Benzo for a relatively short period of time, such as less than 6-12 months, one may want to consider tapering off their Benzo first (please see Will Hall's book on Harm Reduction) Prior to commencing with an AD taper please consider what problems the AD is causing, as tapering is an extremely serious endeavor. If one has been on an AD for more than 10 yrs. please consider the potential long term negative consequences of AD withdrawal prior to tapering. (please see Drs. Healy, Glenmullen and Shipko) Prior to re-starting an AD taper, please do not resume tapering until all w/d sx's from any prior taper, especially CT, have resolved. 2004 - Dec. 2015, Cymbalta 20mg/d for neck pain - Never had problems with Cymbalta. Dec 2015, CT 20mg/d Cymbalta. 5 weeks later reinstated 20mg/d Cymbalta - without increase in CT sx's. Feb 2016 STARTED VALIUM 25mg/d for CT Cymbalta wd sxs. Jan-April 2016 Held Cymbalta 20mg/d - doing pretty well (AM 3/10 anxiety and 3/10 tinnitus) April 2016, CT Cymbalta sx's had not yet resolved and I prematurely tapered 10% q 4 wks x 3 mos. After 3rd cut developed 10/10 wd sx's of Anxiety, Anhedonia, Anorexia, Panic attacks, dark, incresaed Valium to 28mg/d. November 2016, after 3 cuts, UP-DOSED all (41 beads) back up to 20mg (193 beads total) Cymbalta - from , dark to light. VALIUM TAPER: Jan 2017 28mg to March 2019 Zero Cymbalta has partially stabilized and helped with the Valium taper. The only sx I have now is 3/10 Tinnitus, which I only notice when it is quiet. http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/11900-woof-cymbalta-re-stabilization-after-cold-turkey-withdrawal/ Benzo Posts http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/11951-woof-valium-scheduling-and-dosage-with-cymbalta-wd-symptoms/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
India Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 On 12/11/2011 at 10:15 PM, annej said: My Intro[url="http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1542-annej-off-long-term-snris-since-july-2011/"] My thoughts on Dr. Stuart Shipko after spending 1.5 hours in consultation with him this year. . . My impression is that Dr. Shipko is highly frustrated by the numbers of people finding out that they experience great distress and discomfort in trying to get off of psychotropics. He was unable or unwilling to offer me any help in getting off of the 5 or 6 medications that I was on at the time I saw him. I don't blame him for not wanting to take on this immense undertaking, but my family and I left his office feeling hopeless after my consultation. He said, and I quote: "The SSRI (SNRI) and the benzo are the very least of your problems". I completely disagree with this statement although I respect his right to think this. "You are screwed." Yes, he actually told this to me in front of my family. I sure felt screwed, especially after hearing this. He then went on to say: "I will not be responsible for getting you off medication because I never put you on them in the first place". I respect his personal decision not to get involved with trying to help people get off psychotropics because I am sure that it is very difficult to support someone through their agony, but don't physicians care for people when they are ill and need help? I got the distinct impression that Dr. Shipko does not think it within the best interests of those who might struggle with withdrawal symptoms to take the risk of tapering off of these drugs. His essay which has been posted on this forum, but I will post it again is actually very good and I think it does offer a valid perspective. It is difficult getting off of these drugs and it can be dangerous, but I think he is to quote another poster,a "tad bit fatalistic". I think the scariest possibility that he raises is if the patient goes off medications, finds out that they cannot tolerate the withdrawal symptom, reinstates the drug only to find out that it does not work. I have not run across anyone in my travels that this has happened to, but I don't doubt that this situation exists in the rare minority of patients. [url="http://empathic.ning.com/forum/topics/some-thoughts-on-stopping?xg_source=activity"url] These are just my personal interpretations of my consultation with Dr. Shipko. Other than that, my family and I are very pleased that I decided to get off meds and I hold a lot of hope for the future. I will say one last thing and that is that the quality of my life, even though I am going through benzo withdrawal, is so much better off the multiple drugs than it ever was on them. I'll take my chances and learn how to live drug free. Hugs, annej Kelly Brogan M.D is more positive 1999: Paroxetine (20mg). Age 16. 2007-2008: Fluoxetine (Prozac) for 1.5 years (age 25) Citalopram 20mg 2002-2005, 2009: Escitalopram (20mg), 2 weeks, (age 26) (adverse manic reaction)/*Valium 5mg/Temazepam 10mg 2010: Mirtazipine (Remeron)( do not remember dosage) 2010, 5 months. 2010-2017: Citalopram (20mg) (age 27 to 34) 2016: i.1st Sept- 31st Oct Citalopram 10mg , ii.1st November 2017-30th November 2017, Citalopram 5mg iii.1st December 2017- 4th February 2018, Citalopram 0mg, iv.5th February 2018- March 2018 Citalopram 5mg (10mg every other day) 28th February- tried titration of 5mg ( some adverse effects) 2018: 1st March 2018- 1st June Citalopram 10 mg (tablet form) /started titration 8mg , then 7 mg.2018: June 15th- 10th July Citalopram 10 mg pill every other day 2018: 10th July - 13th Sept Citalopram- 0mg (CBD oil first month of 0mg, passiflora on and off) 2018 13th Sept Citalopram 2mg , approx 16th Sept 4mg , approx 25th Sept 6mg held. 2019: 11 Feb 19: 7mg (instant bad rxn) 12 Feb 19 6mg held 1 May 19 5.4mg held 5 Oct 19 5.36mg 22 Oct 19 5.29mg 30 Oct 19 5.23mg 4/NOV/19 5.18mg 12 Nov 19 5.08mg 20 Nov 19 4.77mg 7 May 22 2.31mg (Herbal/Supplements since 1st September: Omega Fish Oil 1200mg, 663mg of EPA- 2 tablets a day, magnesium and magnesium bath salts) I did not die, and yet I lost life’s breath - Dante Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Emeritus ChessieCat Posted July 26, 2019 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted July 26, 2019 There are a couple of other discussions about Dr Shipko. an-update-from-dr-shipko-very-encouraging mia-blog-entry-by-dr-shipko-on-wd Also this: On 2/16/2018 at 11:02 AM, Altostrata said: Dr. Shipko does not treat withdrawal syndrome. Please DO NOT TAG me - thank you PLEASE NOTE: I am not a medical professional. I provide information and make suggestions. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED: (6 year taper) 0mg Pristiq on 13th November 2021 ADs since ~1992: 25+ years - 1 unknown, Prozac (muscle weakness), Zoloft; citalopram (pooped out) CTed (very sick for 2.5 wks a few months after); Pristiq: 50mg 2012, 100mg beg 2013 (Serotonin Toxicity) Tapering from Oct 2015 - 13 Nov 2021 LAST DOSE 0.0025mg Post 0 updates start here My tapering program My Intro (goes to tapering graph) VIDEO: Antidepressant Withdrawal Syndrome and its Management Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Emeritus Rhiannon Posted September 9, 2019 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted September 9, 2019 I would love to talk to Dr. Shipko sometime--it sounds like a lot of the things he has concluded are similar to things I've figured out myself. One of those is the 3-6 month "relapse" window with AD withdrawal. I saw something written by him on another site (MIA I think) where he mentioned that window. I see it so commonly on here, I'd say in almost all the uncomplicated AD withdrawal cases we get here (that is, people who have primarily either too-fast-tapered or CT'd just one antidepressant, without a big complex multidrug history). I think it's a phenomenon that really needs to be researched, although I'm definitely not holding my breath that THAT will happen. Basically it seems like a lot of people get through acute WD okay and their symptoms settle down or they just don't have a lot of symptoms, and then somewhere around 3-6 months out they get hit with symptoms that are almost invariably diagnosed as "return of the original condition" and they end up back on ADs. It was a fist-pumping "yes!" moment for me when I saw Shipko commenting on the same thing. And it seems he also agrees with me about the "tolerance withdrawal" myth with benzo WD (that is, the one where people think they are having more symptoms because they aren't tapering fast enough so they are afraid to slow down or hold during a taper.) Anyway--Dr. S if you're out there and you'd like to connect, drop me a line, or if anyone talks to him, let him know I'd like to correspond. Started on Prozac and Xanax in 1992 for PTSD after an assault. One drug led to more, the usual story. Got sicker and sicker, but believed I needed the drugs for my "underlying disease". Long story...lost everything. Life savings, home, physical and mental health, relationships, friendships, ability to work, everything. Amitryptiline, Prozac, bupropion, buspirone, flurazepam, diazepam, alprazolam, Paxil, citalopram, lamotrigine, gabapentin...probably more I've forgotten. Started multidrug taper in Feb 2010. Doing a very slow microtaper, down to low doses now and feeling SO much better, getting my old personality and my brain back! Able to work full time, have a full social life, and cope with stress better than ever. Not perfect, but much better. After 23 lost years. Big Pharma has a lot to answer for. And "medicine for profit" is just not a great idea. Feb 15 2010: 300 mg Neurontin 200 Lamictal 10 Celexa 0.65 Xanax and 5 mg Ambien Feb 10 2014: 62 Lamictal 1.1 Celexa 0.135 Xanax 1.8 Valium Feb 10 2015: 50 Lamictal 0.875 Celexa 0.11 Xanax 1.5 Valium Feb 15 2016: 47.5 Lamictal 0.75 Celexa 0.0875 Xanax 1.42 Valium 2/12/20 12 0.045 0.007 1 May 2021 7 0.01 0.0037 1 Feb 2022 6 0!!! 0.00167 0.98 2.5 mg Ambien Oct 2022 4.5 mg Lamictal (off Celexa, off Xanax) 0.95 Valium Ambien, 1/4 to 1/2 of a 5 mg tablet I'm not a doctor. Any advice I give is just my civilian opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hisame Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 29 minutes ago, Rhiannon said: One of those is the 3-6 month "relapse" window with AD withdrawal. I saw something written by him on another site (MIA I think) where he mentioned that window. I see it so commonly on here, I'd say in almost all the uncomplicated AD withdrawal cases we get here (that is, people who have primarily either too-fast-tapered or CT'd just one antidepressant, without a big complex multidrug history). I think it's a phenomenon that really needs to be researched, although I'm definitely not holding my breath that THAT will happen. Basically it seems like a lot of people get through acute WD okay and their symptoms settle down or they just don't have a lot of symptoms, and then somewhere around 3-6 months out they get hit with symptoms that are almost invariably diagnosed as "return of the original condition" and they end up back on ADs. Hi Rhiannon, It happened to me, not during withdrawal, but when I definitely got rid of paxil. The first three months I had a relapse windows (except for my tinnitus), and then real troubles began. - 2002 -> 2012 : Paxil, 20 mg for anxiety - January 2012 : 1 month withdrawal -> depression, burning sensations in my legs - February 2012 : reinstate 20 mg -> back to normal - January 2014 -> August 2015 : « alternate days » tapering from 20mg to 2,5 mg -> anxiety, back pain and trouble focusing - 4 september 2015 -> panic attack, psychiatric hospital for 1 week, stop Paxil, get Clomipramine, Abilify, Domperidone for 2 weeks, then stop everything - 20 september 2015 : try to reinstate Paxil 20 mg -> permanent tinnitus with only one tablet - Free from paxil since september 2015 ->suffering from permanent side effects : tinnitus, hyperacusis, neuropathic pain, prostatitis, depression, suicidal ideations, akathisia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Emeritus Rhiannon Posted September 10, 2019 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted September 10, 2019 22 hours ago, Hisame said: Hi Rhiannon, It happened to me, not during withdrawal, but when I definitely got rid of paxil. The first three months I had a relapse windows (except for my tinnitus), and then real troubles began. Thanks Hisame. This seems to be a really typical pattern. I'm certain there is a neuro-physiological reason for it. Started on Prozac and Xanax in 1992 for PTSD after an assault. One drug led to more, the usual story. Got sicker and sicker, but believed I needed the drugs for my "underlying disease". Long story...lost everything. Life savings, home, physical and mental health, relationships, friendships, ability to work, everything. Amitryptiline, Prozac, bupropion, buspirone, flurazepam, diazepam, alprazolam, Paxil, citalopram, lamotrigine, gabapentin...probably more I've forgotten. Started multidrug taper in Feb 2010. Doing a very slow microtaper, down to low doses now and feeling SO much better, getting my old personality and my brain back! Able to work full time, have a full social life, and cope with stress better than ever. Not perfect, but much better. After 23 lost years. Big Pharma has a lot to answer for. And "medicine for profit" is just not a great idea. Feb 15 2010: 300 mg Neurontin 200 Lamictal 10 Celexa 0.65 Xanax and 5 mg Ambien Feb 10 2014: 62 Lamictal 1.1 Celexa 0.135 Xanax 1.8 Valium Feb 10 2015: 50 Lamictal 0.875 Celexa 0.11 Xanax 1.5 Valium Feb 15 2016: 47.5 Lamictal 0.75 Celexa 0.0875 Xanax 1.42 Valium 2/12/20 12 0.045 0.007 1 May 2021 7 0.01 0.0037 1 Feb 2022 6 0!!! 0.00167 0.98 2.5 mg Ambien Oct 2022 4.5 mg Lamictal (off Celexa, off Xanax) 0.95 Valium Ambien, 1/4 to 1/2 of a 5 mg tablet I'm not a doctor. Any advice I give is just my civilian opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubbles Posted September 11, 2019 Share Posted September 11, 2019 On 9/10/2019 at 2:56 AM, Rhiannon said: One of those is the 3-6 month "relapse" window with AD withdrawal. I saw something written by him on another site (MIA I think) where he mentioned that window. I see it so commonly on here, I'd say in almost all the uncomplicated AD withdrawal cases we get here (that is, people who have primarily either too-fast-tapered or CT'd just one antidepressant, without a big complex multidrug history). I think it's a phenomenon that really needs to be researched, although I'm definitely not holding my breath that THAT will happen. Basically it seems like a lot of people get through acute WD okay and their symptoms settle down or they just don't have a lot of symptoms, and then somewhere around 3-6 months out they get hit with symptoms that are almost invariably diagnosed as "return of the original condition" and they end up back on ADs. Where people feel fine for a few months and then crash? Yes, I've noticed this mentioned quite a lot, and experienced it. Not sure I ever felt brilliant, but def crashed at some months out. When I tried to raise it as WD, it was dismissed. I'd love to see some research on it. Interesting that Dr Shipko has noticed it also. 2005 St John's Wort / 2006-2012 Lexapro 20mg, 2 failed attempts to stop, tapered over 4.5 months in early 2012 January 2013 started Sertraline, over time worked up to 100mg July 2014 Sertraline dropped from 100mg to 75mg, held for six months, slower tapering until 2019 22 Dec 3.2mg 2020 Sertraline 19 Jan 3.1mg, 26 Jan 3.0mg; 1 Mar 2.9, 7 Mar 2.8, May (some drops here) 24 May 2.5, May 29 2.4, June 21 2.3, June 28 2.2mg, July 4 2.1mg, July 24 (or maybe a bit before) 2mg, early Nov switched to home made suspension; 29 Nov 1.8mg; approx 25 Dec 1.6mg) 2021 Some time in about Jan/Feb realised probably on more like 1.8mg and poss mixing error in making suspension; doses after 10 Feb accurate; 10 Feb 1.6mg; 7 Mar 1.4, continued monthly 10% drops until 1mg, then dropped 0.1mg monthly. May 2022,0.1mg, now dropping 0.01mg per week My thread here at SA: https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/1775-bubbles/page/18/ Current: Sertraline: 0.08mg / Armour Thyroid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Emeritus ChessieCat Posted September 11, 2019 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted September 11, 2019 My drug history is very simple. I was taking citalopram for many years and I think it reached tolerance (from current knowledge). For some reason I decided to cold turkey it. I felt great for at least 2 months. Better than I had felt in a very long time. Then I became bedridden for 2.5 weeks with "flu" but no temperature. I lost 8kgs because I didn't feel like eating. Didn't understand that it was delayed withdrawal (again hindsight). I must have improved a bit from the flu but wasn't feeling good because the psychologist then told me that I needed an AD like a diabetic needs insulin and I was advised to start Pristiq. Thankfully it did cover the withdrawal symptoms, or most of them (I ended up starting 50mg and then ended up on 100mg - and ended up with mild serotonin toxicity). Please DO NOT TAG me - thank you PLEASE NOTE: I am not a medical professional. I provide information and make suggestions. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED: (6 year taper) 0mg Pristiq on 13th November 2021 ADs since ~1992: 25+ years - 1 unknown, Prozac (muscle weakness), Zoloft; citalopram (pooped out) CTed (very sick for 2.5 wks a few months after); Pristiq: 50mg 2012, 100mg beg 2013 (Serotonin Toxicity) Tapering from Oct 2015 - 13 Nov 2021 LAST DOSE 0.0025mg Post 0 updates start here My tapering program My Intro (goes to tapering graph) VIDEO: Antidepressant Withdrawal Syndrome and its Management Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubbles Posted September 11, 2019 Share Posted September 11, 2019 3 hours ago, ChessieCat said: I was taking citalopram for many years and I think it reached tolerance (from current knowledge). For some reason I decided to cold turkey it. I felt great for at least 2 months. Better than I had felt in a very long time. Then I became bedridden for 2.5 weeks with "flu" but no temperature. I lost 8kgs because I didn't feel like eating. Didn't understand that it was delayed withdrawal (again hindsight). I must have improved a bit from the flu but wasn't feeling good because the psychologist then told me that I needed an AD like a diabetic needs insulin and I was advised to start Pristiq. Thankfully it did cover the withdrawal symptoms, or most of them (I ended up starting 50mg and then ended up on 100mg - and ended up with mild serotonin toxicity). The sertraline mostly covered the symptoms, though my symptoms were all anxiety and depression. My symptoms were also complicated by having been off my thyroid meds for a few weeks. It wasn't clever, being off my thyroid meds, and it taught me that thyroid isn't an issue to be taken so cavalierly, regardless of how much I enjoyed not taking any pills for a bit. I still think it was WD, exacerbated by the thyroid issue, but it's actually impossible to know. 2005 St John's Wort / 2006-2012 Lexapro 20mg, 2 failed attempts to stop, tapered over 4.5 months in early 2012 January 2013 started Sertraline, over time worked up to 100mg July 2014 Sertraline dropped from 100mg to 75mg, held for six months, slower tapering until 2019 22 Dec 3.2mg 2020 Sertraline 19 Jan 3.1mg, 26 Jan 3.0mg; 1 Mar 2.9, 7 Mar 2.8, May (some drops here) 24 May 2.5, May 29 2.4, June 21 2.3, June 28 2.2mg, July 4 2.1mg, July 24 (or maybe a bit before) 2mg, early Nov switched to home made suspension; 29 Nov 1.8mg; approx 25 Dec 1.6mg) 2021 Some time in about Jan/Feb realised probably on more like 1.8mg and poss mixing error in making suspension; doses after 10 Feb accurate; 10 Feb 1.6mg; 7 Mar 1.4, continued monthly 10% drops until 1mg, then dropped 0.1mg monthly. May 2022,0.1mg, now dropping 0.01mg per week My thread here at SA: https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/1775-bubbles/page/18/ Current: Sertraline: 0.08mg / Armour Thyroid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armorall Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 I emailed Dr. Shipko today and this is what he said about my "condition". Based on the literature there is no one right direction if you are experiencing withdrawal. It is not possible to know if what you are experiencing is withdrawal, but in general, if withdrawal is not interfering with ability to work and attend to social obligations, it is best to wait it out. 3/21/19 started Bupropion XL 150 mg 3/21/19 started Risperidone 2mg 7/7/19 start Abilify half dose 5 mg. discontinue Risperidone 7/9/19 full dose Abilify 10 mg 7/29/19 discontinued Abilify due to panicky side effects 8/2/19 Began Latuda 20 mg 8/5/19 discontinued Latuda due to similar side effects 8/10/19 discontinued Bupropion after realizing it was causing the insomnia From 8/10/19 no drugs whatsoever Currently taking vitamin C, D, E, a probiotic and fish oil. Message me here if you want: https://www.facebook.com/morra.lal.3/ I've been getting a lot of fake friend requests, so please send a message before friend requesting me, thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Altostrata Posted November 2, 2019 Administrator Share Posted November 2, 2019 Good for you. I think you may be wasting your time here. This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Emeritus Rhiannon Posted November 2, 2019 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted November 2, 2019 18 minutes ago, Armorall said: I emailed Dr. Shipko today and this is what he said about my "condition". Based on the literature there is no one right direction if you are experiencing withdrawal. It is not possible to know if what you are experiencing is withdrawal, but in general, if withdrawal is not interfering with ability to work and attend to social obligations, it is best to wait it out. Honestly if your sig is correct and that's your full history on psych meds, and if withdrawal is "not interfering with ability to work and attend to social obligations," this seems like pretty good advice for your situation. Started on Prozac and Xanax in 1992 for PTSD after an assault. One drug led to more, the usual story. Got sicker and sicker, but believed I needed the drugs for my "underlying disease". Long story...lost everything. Life savings, home, physical and mental health, relationships, friendships, ability to work, everything. Amitryptiline, Prozac, bupropion, buspirone, flurazepam, diazepam, alprazolam, Paxil, citalopram, lamotrigine, gabapentin...probably more I've forgotten. Started multidrug taper in Feb 2010. Doing a very slow microtaper, down to low doses now and feeling SO much better, getting my old personality and my brain back! Able to work full time, have a full social life, and cope with stress better than ever. Not perfect, but much better. After 23 lost years. Big Pharma has a lot to answer for. And "medicine for profit" is just not a great idea. Feb 15 2010: 300 mg Neurontin 200 Lamictal 10 Celexa 0.65 Xanax and 5 mg Ambien Feb 10 2014: 62 Lamictal 1.1 Celexa 0.135 Xanax 1.8 Valium Feb 10 2015: 50 Lamictal 0.875 Celexa 0.11 Xanax 1.5 Valium Feb 15 2016: 47.5 Lamictal 0.75 Celexa 0.0875 Xanax 1.42 Valium 2/12/20 12 0.045 0.007 1 May 2021 7 0.01 0.0037 1 Feb 2022 6 0!!! 0.00167 0.98 2.5 mg Ambien Oct 2022 4.5 mg Lamictal (off Celexa, off Xanax) 0.95 Valium Ambien, 1/4 to 1/2 of a 5 mg tablet I'm not a doctor. Any advice I give is just my civilian opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armorall Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 I'm barely getting by in my work. If my workload changes, I'd be screwed right now. I've been skipping social obligations often, but, yes I'm not housebound or anything. Thanks Rhiannon. 3/21/19 started Bupropion XL 150 mg 3/21/19 started Risperidone 2mg 7/7/19 start Abilify half dose 5 mg. discontinue Risperidone 7/9/19 full dose Abilify 10 mg 7/29/19 discontinued Abilify due to panicky side effects 8/2/19 Began Latuda 20 mg 8/5/19 discontinued Latuda due to similar side effects 8/10/19 discontinued Bupropion after realizing it was causing the insomnia From 8/10/19 no drugs whatsoever Currently taking vitamin C, D, E, a probiotic and fish oil. Message me here if you want: https://www.facebook.com/morra.lal.3/ I've been getting a lot of fake friend requests, so please send a message before friend requesting me, thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armorall Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 13 minutes ago, Altostrata said: Good for you. I think you may be wasting your time here. Meaning, I shouldn't be on the boards so much? 1 3/21/19 started Bupropion XL 150 mg 3/21/19 started Risperidone 2mg 7/7/19 start Abilify half dose 5 mg. discontinue Risperidone 7/9/19 full dose Abilify 10 mg 7/29/19 discontinued Abilify due to panicky side effects 8/2/19 Began Latuda 20 mg 8/5/19 discontinued Latuda due to similar side effects 8/10/19 discontinued Bupropion after realizing it was causing the insomnia From 8/10/19 no drugs whatsoever Currently taking vitamin C, D, E, a probiotic and fish oil. Message me here if you want: https://www.facebook.com/morra.lal.3/ I've been getting a lot of fake friend requests, so please send a message before friend requesting me, thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Altostrata Posted November 2, 2019 Administrator Share Posted November 2, 2019 2 hours ago, Armorall said: if withdrawal is not interfering with ability to work and attend to social obligations If this is so, you've been making a lot of unnecessary fuss. This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armorall Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 2 hours ago, Armorall said: I'm barely getting by in my work. If my workload changes, I'd be screwed right now. I've been skipping social obligations often, but, yes I'm not housebound or anything. Thanks Rhiannon. @Altostrata See above. I am about to start a leave of absence at work as well in a few weeks. I'm only hanging on by a thread right now. 3/21/19 started Bupropion XL 150 mg 3/21/19 started Risperidone 2mg 7/7/19 start Abilify half dose 5 mg. discontinue Risperidone 7/9/19 full dose Abilify 10 mg 7/29/19 discontinued Abilify due to panicky side effects 8/2/19 Began Latuda 20 mg 8/5/19 discontinued Latuda due to similar side effects 8/10/19 discontinued Bupropion after realizing it was causing the insomnia From 8/10/19 no drugs whatsoever Currently taking vitamin C, D, E, a probiotic and fish oil. Message me here if you want: https://www.facebook.com/morra.lal.3/ I've been getting a lot of fake friend requests, so please send a message before friend requesting me, thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PortugueseSea Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 This interview with Dr. Shipko dates from 2021, hope it is helpful, and hopeful, to people: 1 December 2021 - Metoclopramide started. Akathisia symptoms start; Metoclopramide gets changed to PRN, taken 5mg, first every other day, then once every 3 days. March 2022 - Akathisia diagnosed; Metoclopramide stopped; started Propranolol 10mg x twice a day to no effect, Biperiden PRN (0.5mg to 1mg). April 2022 - Started Tandospirone 30mg (10mg 3x day), Quetiapine 25mg (only taken once, immediate adr). Mirtazapine 7.5mg, 10 day window followed. Discontinued Propranolol. May 2022 - Akathisia symptoms continue, Mirtazapine upped to 15mg. 7 day window followed. Tandospirone cut to 2x 10mg. Low dose Depakote for the month; 100 to 200 to 100 to 0. Mirtazapine cut back to 11.75mg (3/4 of a 15mg pill).June 2022 - Mirtazapine updose to 15mg. Tandospirone and Biperiden discontinued. Klonopin started PRN (0.5mg). September 2022 - Akathisia slowly starts improving, WD/ADR normal sets in in mid September. Hold for 4 months.December 2022 - Mirtazapine taper started;March 2023 - Off mirtazapine; no Klonopin for 5 months either! Intro thread: https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/27095-portuguesesea-metoclopramide-akathisia-and-mirtazapine/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts