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The Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization


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I find myself waking around 5am also, Bluebird. I used to love mornings. I was always a relatively early riser. I loved being awake before my wife and kids and just relaxing with some reading. Now mornings are a trial for me. 1 of the things I do is try to float through my anxiety instead of fight it. It's the Claire Weekes approach. 

 

Read more here: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/10964-the-dr-claire-weekes-method-of-recovering-from-a-sensitized-nervous-system/

 

And breath!

 

SJ

Main thread: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/14472-shakeyjerr-say-hello/

History: Prozac & Lithium from 1999 to 2003. Ended up back on after 4 months because taking a beta-blocker caused immediate depression (just 2 doses - turned out I didn't even need it; I had no other withdrawal symptoms - I might have ended up med and withdrawal-free otherwise :(). - Switched to Effexor (75mg 3/day) and Seroquel (50mg 3/day) in 2010. - Did a self-taper during 2016. - Developed Discontinuation Syndrome 02/17.

Supplements: Magnesium-Glycinate 400mg split into 4 100mg doses throughout the day. Vitamin C 500mg - once per day. Fish Oil 1360 mg (950 mg Active Omega-3) - twice per day.

I'm not a doctor. I use the internet, experience, and trial & error. Seek medical advice if necessary.

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I can fully confirm the describes waves and windows pattern. Luckily I documented a few month going into WD and when I feel

horroble again and tend to think that this will never end and never gets any better I read some

of my old logs ans can defenitely see an overall improvement. Still I get very frustrated from

time to time when symptoms worsen and I get this feeling of losing so mich time and "wasting" so many years with this very upsetting circumstances. I am about 1,5 years off drugs now. My windows became longer, but my waves are also still quite long-lasting. After going into WS I felt abaolutely horrible for about 6-8 months straight with only hours or days of uplifting. then I had a longer window for 3 months since then its more wavy again and I am sort of desperately waiting for my next window. What I find most upsetting is the total intolerance to ANY sort of stress- be it physical exercise, work or private/family issues. The smalles issues are like huuuuge rocks in my way and I am always hoping that nothing major stressful will soon cross my way. I know no two persons and healing time is the same but among those who have been in longterm protracted withdrawal - does this get sort of significantly better after 3-5 years of waves/windows? or do you aaaaaalways have to walk like on egg shells?

2005-2006: Cipralex 5 mg

2009-2010: Cipralex 5 mg

2012-2015: Cipralex 5mg, 10mg 

tapered 10mg-7.5mg-5mg-2,5-0 (I always waited for a few weeks on the current dosage until I felt stable. Steps were too big I realized too late)

Completely drug free since August 2015

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Thanks guys,

I wish there was a way to get the cortisol out of my system! I hate this.

I also get tingling in my legs and I'm pretty shaky in the morning. I used to love to sleep...sometimes nine hours a night.

Hi Nena59, I'm glad to talk to someone how has came off long term Prozac. I am 10mtha off now and have awful anxiety and tingling, I wake at 5am every morning with crippling anxiety. I would like to start my med again to get rid of this but my system has became so sensitised that I can't tolerate even a tiny dose. Please keep me up to date on how you cope and any methods for the anxiety. I'm having acupuncture which is keeping me health but not helping anxiety. I had reflexology on Fri and was really ill with flu type aches and pain yesterday but that has gone today. Take care. xx

 

Hey Blue bird,

I have a new counselor and he gets all this! He even explained to me how the brain is trying to heal!

Anyway, he got me involved in mediation. There is a free and awesome course called palousemindfullness.com. I have had pretty bad anxiety and after doing this for 5 weeks I think it has helped. I can breathe through the worse most of the time and bring myself out of it. I hope this helps.

Oct 2016. 20 years fluoxetine (20 mg) and bupropion (400 mg). Ceased fluoxetine without taper and bupropion after 4 wk taper. Initial extreme fatigue resolved into moderate fatigue and depression with occasional brain zaps and tingling skin.
Oct 2017. Anhedonia, 90% of my day. Occasional anxiety. Milder brain zaps. In past two weeks, 3 window days and 11 wave days.
May 2019. Anhedonia, infrequent anxiety, mild brain zaps. Sleeping 6 hours nightly after lifetime of 8 hours. Typical daily pattern is wave until late afternoon, window until bedtime. Occasional full day windows.
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I can fully confirm the describes waves and windows pattern. Luckily I documented a few month going into WD and when I feel

horroble again and tend to think that this will never end and never gets any better I read some

of my old logs ans can defenitely see an overall improvement. Still I get very frustrated from

time to time when symptoms worsen and I get this feeling of losing so mich time and "wasting" so many years with this very upsetting circumstances. I am about 1,5 years off drugs now. My windows became longer, but my waves are also still quite long-lasting. After going into WS I felt abaolutely horrible for about 6-8 months straight with only hours or days of uplifting. then I had a longer window for 3 months since then its more wavy again and I am sort of desperately waiting for my next window. What I find most upsetting is the total intolerance to ANY sort of stress- be it physical exercise, work or private/family issues. The smalles issues are like huuuuge rocks in my way and I am always hoping that nothing major stressful will soon cross my way. I know no two persons and healing time is the same but among those who have been in longterm protracted withdrawal - does this get sort of significantly better after 3-5 years of waves/windows? or do you aaaaaalways have to walk like on egg shells?

Pepita,

I am the same way. I have been waving a lot lately. I'm not as bad or good as in the recent past, I'm more not getting the highs and lows. I get into a window, weak, but a window just the same and something that should be a little stressful comes up and wham, a drop in mood and anxiety. I feel like I should be in a mattress filled room. I'm off for 7 months.

Oct 2016. 20 years fluoxetine (20 mg) and bupropion (400 mg). Ceased fluoxetine without taper and bupropion after 4 wk taper. Initial extreme fatigue resolved into moderate fatigue and depression with occasional brain zaps and tingling skin.
Oct 2017. Anhedonia, 90% of my day. Occasional anxiety. Milder brain zaps. In past two weeks, 3 window days and 11 wave days.
May 2019. Anhedonia, infrequent anxiety, mild brain zaps. Sleeping 6 hours nightly after lifetime of 8 hours. Typical daily pattern is wave until late afternoon, window until bedtime. Occasional full day windows.
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Hi Nena59, I tried to quote but somehow I always end up quoting everything, including my original Text that you quoted so I am going to stick with @Nena for now:D
wow 20 years of medication (what is it SSRI?) ..that is really a very long time. Off 7 months, congratulations! Even if it feels really horrible - I came to the conclusion that it´s still better if you´re not poisoning your system any more.
I just wished that the healing process would be easier. And more consistent. A few weeks ago I even went to so some freelance work in another office (another than my own where I can luckily work from most of the time)...and now I feel like being back on ground zero.
I mostly stay very positive but DAMN THIS SUCKS! Had to be said once :))

2005-2006: Cipralex 5 mg

2009-2010: Cipralex 5 mg

2012-2015: Cipralex 5mg, 10mg 

tapered 10mg-7.5mg-5mg-2,5-0 (I always waited for a few weeks on the current dosage until I felt stable. Steps were too big I realized too late)

Completely drug free since August 2015

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Hi Nena59, I tried to quote but somehow I always end up quoting everything, including my original Text that you quoted so I am going to stick with @Nena for now:D

wow 20 years of medication (what is it SSRI?) ..that is really a very long time. Off 7 months, congratulations! Even if it feels really horrible - I came to the conclusion that it´s still better if you´re not poisoning your system any more.

I just wished that the healing process would be easier. And more consistent. A few weeks ago I even went to so some freelance work in another office (another than my own where I can luckily work from most of the time)...and now I feel like being back on ground zero.

I mostly stay very positive but DAMN THIS SUCKS! Had to be said once :))

Pepita, 

So sorry you are not well now.

I took prozac and wellbrutrin. I don't think that I ever really needed them either. I was going through a really tough time in my life and I just needed to ride it out, but I took what I thought was the easy way out. I knew other people that took anti-depressants at the time and just figured that they were safe.

I am really trying to stay positive, thanks for the reminder. :D

Oct 2016. 20 years fluoxetine (20 mg) and bupropion (400 mg). Ceased fluoxetine without taper and bupropion after 4 wk taper. Initial extreme fatigue resolved into moderate fatigue and depression with occasional brain zaps and tingling skin.
Oct 2017. Anhedonia, 90% of my day. Occasional anxiety. Milder brain zaps. In past two weeks, 3 window days and 11 wave days.
May 2019. Anhedonia, infrequent anxiety, mild brain zaps. Sleeping 6 hours nightly after lifetime of 8 hours. Typical daily pattern is wave until late afternoon, window until bedtime. Occasional full day windows.
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@Nena - same here... I was going through a rough time, both personally and professionally. And it was hard- but nothing, not even close to the hell of withdrawal. Also Inwas inteoduced to SSRI at the age of 18 by a GP after a 10 minutes talk- due to mild panic attacks (which didn't hinder me at my studies), so I sort of was used to dealing with mental issues with medication. This wave came on so strong because my 13 year old cat was diagnosed with a huge tumor and will probably die rather sooner than later. This is a sad situation of course but the way this is hitting me is very very "withdrawal-style" :( and it reminds me of how far I'm still away from being 100% healed.

2005-2006: Cipralex 5 mg

2009-2010: Cipralex 5 mg

2012-2015: Cipralex 5mg, 10mg 

tapered 10mg-7.5mg-5mg-2,5-0 (I always waited for a few weeks on the current dosage until I felt stable. Steps were too big I realized too late)

Completely drug free since August 2015

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'm co confused about windows and waves. Are windows when you feel healed or when symptoms aren't as bad as the waves? I'm trying to figure out if I've experienced any windows. I know exactly what the waves are, just curious about the definition of windows. I have not experienced a time yet when I feel healed but I've had a few short experiences when the symptoms aren't as bad as they normally are. I might have already asked about this but my memory is awful. Any input is greatly appreciated.

Trazodone 100mg stopped November 2016

Lamictal 200mg stopped November 2016

Celexa 40mg stopped 12-01-16

Abilify 10mg stopped 12-01-16

Wellbutrin XL stopped 6-14-18

I have been on some type of meds for @ least 15 years.

GOD BLESS! 🙏

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Jennifer,

Windows happen when you feel better for a time...almost back to normal. I have a hard time with them sometimes, I'm afraid they will go away! Waves are 2/3 of my day lately. I feel anxious sometimes, depressed sometimes, low energy, sad :(. I am just so tired of this! I read the success stories when i get too down. You will get better! Your brain is healing right now!

Nena

Oct 2016. 20 years fluoxetine (20 mg) and bupropion (400 mg). Ceased fluoxetine without taper and bupropion after 4 wk taper. Initial extreme fatigue resolved into moderate fatigue and depression with occasional brain zaps and tingling skin.
Oct 2017. Anhedonia, 90% of my day. Occasional anxiety. Milder brain zaps. In past two weeks, 3 window days and 11 wave days.
May 2019. Anhedonia, infrequent anxiety, mild brain zaps. Sleeping 6 hours nightly after lifetime of 8 hours. Typical daily pattern is wave until late afternoon, window until bedtime. Occasional full day windows.
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  • 2 weeks later...

Learning how to protect your nervous system from abrasive people is a good skill to learn and will serve you well in the long run.Being pushed to take care of ourselves is, I guess you could say, one of the benefits of this awful condition.

You hit the nail on the head there. We just have no other option than to take matters in our own hands. After all the drug ain't doing it anymore.

 

I definitely escaped my imagined disney-like world by direct confrontation with my suffering. The only problem is that I'm so sensitive in this wd process that I tend to overreact or overprotect. In some situations when I perhaps mistakenly feel offended I'm one of these abrasive people towards others, and that's not who I want to be. That knife between my teeth is really wearing me out.

 

But I get better at distrusting my own mind's interpretations. Unfortunately it's only after creating a fire that I find the waterhose.

Took my first SSRI sipralexa/lexapro/escitalopram in 2007 for depression. In 2010 the doctor switched me to paroxetine/seroxat/paxil for anxiety.

My paroxetine story from then on:

 

2010-15 from 10mg up to 20mg

jan 2016 30mg

may 2016 0mg cold turkey (don't!)

dec 2016 symptoms: anxiety, tremor (could barely stand)

jan 2017 reinstated at 7.5mg to taper in steps of 10%

...

Dose changes from may 2017 to now: 

5.0/4.7/4.4/4.0/3.7/3.5/3.3/3.1mg

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On 2017-5-29 at 7:50 PM, miT said:

You hit the nail on the head there. We just have no other option than to take matters in our own hands. After all the drug ain't doing it anymore.

 

I definitely escaped my imagined disney-like world by direct confrontation with my suffering. The only problem is that I'm so sensitive in this wd process that I tend to overreact or overprotect. In some situations when I perhaps mistakenly feel offended I'm one of these abrasive people towards others, and that's not who I want to be. That knife between my teeth is really wearing me out.

 

But I get better at distrusting my own mind's interpretations. Unfortunately it's only after creating a fire that I find the waterhose.

This is so true for myself also mit I'm getting much better at looking out for the demon in my head

Alcohol free since February 2015 

1MG diazepam

4.5MG PROZAC.

 

 

 

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I have come to learn that in part some of these bad moods ect call them what you want demond in your head ect melt downs... for me are caused by sensitivities to things in the environment.  I would never have suspected such a thing and would never have guessed that the same things that can put me in bed tired could also cause an extreme mood change cognitive issues ect ect ect....

 

if you know me you know I have been limping along for 10 years and suffering drug reactions food intolerances since going cold turkey... doctor assisted... long and old story...

 

for years I would have blood pressure spikes ... swollen red eyes .... dizzy spells... so many things... 

 

At one point during this process I avoided having a shower as I lost my stability in the shower yet I could not join the dots I just went backwards in  my healing after a shower... I was dirty... I thought it was the water the heat the cold the wet... everything the exertion on my nervous system by temp changes... so many things just plain old broken by wd... 

 

It was the saop... the chlorine in the water.... who knows what else.  

 

I was reacting badly to soap and did not figure it out until I got really really sick... I have since been diagnosed with multiple chemical sensitivity and have come to know more. 

 

I have had a melt down mentally emotionally from febreeze... wood being cut for construction... perfume... you name it the list seems to be endless. 

Avoiding these things is no easy task but is supposedly part of how one could heal from this curse. 

 

I have learned I can have a horrid reaction to a chemical that I cannot smell... scent free products for me are still dangerous. 

 

Difficult as it may be to sort out this is one idea I bet nobody has thought of.... before you have a melt down what did you eat... what was in your air.. were pesticides sprayed in your area?  

 

Putting a carbon filter in your home and finding products that don't set you off could make a big difference and may actually help your healing.  

 

For me I can only use nature clean soap and shampoo (unscented)... no I have not stock in the company and buy it at Loblaws no stock

there either...no fabtic softener or bleach...no tooth paste no deoderant... the list in endless of things I can't use or be around. 

If I am around a person who just had their hair dyed I will get sick... have a melt down... ect the list of types of reactions is almost as endless.... there is a thread on here about this if you want to read more.

 

changing or stopping products could make a difference in your healing....

one of these threads I can't recall which 

 

Hypersensitivity ... MCS video - In the media - Surviving Antidepressants

survivingantidepressants.org › Current events › In the media
  1.  
Jun 9, 2015 - your 18 x more likely to have MCS .... http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/33/5/971.full .... http://www.anapsid.org/cnd/mcs/bastienmcs.html ...

TILT Includes fibro and multiple chemical sensitivity - In the media ...

survivingantidepressants.org › Current events › In the media
  1.  
Feb 16, 2016 - 22 posts - ‎3 authors
So fibro pain mood for me was mostly pain pain pain... mcs... well self ...... Published: August 13, 2013; http://dx.doi.org/10...al.pone.0073708.

Chemical Sensitivity - Surviving Antidepressants

survivingantidepressants.org › Support › Symptoms and self-care
  1.  
  2.  
Aug 19, 2013 - 33 posts - ‎17 authors
http://www.ewg.org/g...e=1&per_page=15 ... Some of us have this MCS I found this bit defining and describing what is going down when we are ...

Limbic Kindling -- Hardwiring the brain for hypersensitivity - In the ...

survivingantidepressants.org › Current events › In the media
  1.  
  2.  
Apr 18, 2014 - Republished text on Healthrising [dot] org: Limbic Kindling ..... http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/11355-tilt-includes-fibro- ... Multiple Chemical Sensitivity (MCS) is a Limbic System condition brought on by .

WARNING THIS WILL BE LONG
Had a car accident in 85
Codeine was the pain med when I was release from hosp continuous use till 89
Given PROZAC by a specialist to help with nerve pain in my leg 89-90 not sure which year
Was not told a thing about it being a psych med thought it was a pain killer no info about psych side effects I went nuts had hallucinations. As I had a head injury and was diagnosed with a concussion in 85 I was sent to a head injury clinic in 1990 five years after the accident. I don't think they knew I had been on prozac I did not think it a big deal and never did finish the bottle of pills. I had tests of course lots of them. Was put into a pain clinic and given amitriptyline which stopped the withdrawal but had many side effects. But I could sleep something I had not done in a very long time the pain lessened. My mother got cancer in 94 they switched my meds to Zoloft to help deal with this pressure as I was her main care giver she died in 96. I stopped zoloft in 96 had withdrawal was put on paxil went nutty quit it ct put on resperidol quit it ct had withdrawal was put on Effexor... 2years later celexa was added 20mg then increased to 40mg huge personality change went wild. Did too fast taper off Celexa 05 as I felt unwell for a long time prior... quit Effexor 150mg ct 07 found ****** 8 months into withdrawal learned some things was banned from there in 08 have kept learning since. there is really not enough room here to put my history but I have a lot of opinions about a lot of things especially any of the drugs mentioned above.
One thing I would like to add here is this tidbit ALL OPIATES INCREASE SEROTONIN it is not a huge jump to being in chronic pain to being put on an ssri/snri and opiates will affect your antidepressants and your thinking.

As I do not update much I will put my quit date Nov. 17 2007 I quit Effexor cold turkey. 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1096-introducing-myself-btdt/

There is a crack in everything ..That's how the light gets in :)

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wooooow that sounds horrendous! And since you've adapdet your lifestyle as far as possible to all these allergy- demands ... you are significantly feeling better?

Edited by scallywag
deleted quote of immediately previous post

2005-2006: Cipralex 5 mg

2009-2010: Cipralex 5 mg

2012-2015: Cipralex 5mg, 10mg 

tapered 10mg-7.5mg-5mg-2,5-0 (I always waited for a few weeks on the current dosage until I felt stable. Steps were too big I realized too late)

Completely drug free since August 2015

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On 8/11/2016 at 8:12 PM, RockSie said:

Yes zando. There was a time where my windows and waves switched per minute.

 

This is good to hear. I cycle up and down so quickly and erratically, it's hard to distinguish between windows and waves. I can feel perfectly okay one minute, then drown the next. Symptoms move in and out, increase and decrease. Sometimes it's one day up, the next day down. It's so exhausting. 

Paxil/Seroxat/paroxetine 10 mg for over 20 years

Several failed attempts at quitting

Slow tapering since June 2016 using liquid paroxetine

Presently stabilising at 0,15 ml (0,3 mg) because of the worst withdrawal so far

June 2017: tried tapering further to 0,1 ml (0,2 mg) but that backfired badly. Stabilising again at 0,15 ml.

July 15, 2017: down to 0

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Hi everyone:) Recently I found a very representative sketch of the WD path to recovery;) Hope it makes you smile as well

2017-06-06-PHOTO-00000315.jpg

2005-2006: Cipralex 5 mg

2009-2010: Cipralex 5 mg

2012-2015: Cipralex 5mg, 10mg 

tapered 10mg-7.5mg-5mg-2,5-0 (I always waited for a few weeks on the current dosage until I felt stable. Steps were too big I realized too late)

Completely drug free since August 2015

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  • 2 weeks later...

hahaha yes that's what it's like!!!

 

it sucks not being able to plan but then, in regular non WD life, this can be true a lot of the time as well

 

thanks for posting that!

  • pysch med history: 1974 @ age 18 to Oct 2017 (approx 43 yrs total)
  •  Drug list: stelazine, haldol, elavil, lithium, zoloft, celexa, lexapro(doses as high as 40mgs), klonopin, ambien, seroquel(high doses), depakote, zyprexa, lamictal- plus brief trials of dozens of other psych meds over the years
  • started lexapro 2002, dose varied from 20mgs to 40mgs. I tried to get off it several times. WD symptoms were mistaken for "relapse". 
  •  2013 too fast taper down to 5mg but WD forced me back to 20mgs
  •  June of 2105, tapered again too rapidly to 2.5mgs by Dec 2015. Found SA, held at 2.5 mgs til May 2016 when I foolishly "jumped off". Crashed in Sept, reinstated at 0.3mgs in Oct. 2106
  • Tapered off to zero by  Oct. 2017 Doing very well
  • Nov. 2018 feel 95% healed, current age 63 
  • Jan. 2020 feel 100% healed, peaceful and content 
  • Aug  2022 ❤️ loving life ❤️ 
 
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How many of you fear a wave ending? Man i do.

Gussy

On effexor for at least 11 years. Last few years going through ivf treatment dose has ranged from 150-200mg. Mainly 150 though. Tapered from about 175mg mid jan 2017 to zero mid april 2017. 2&1/2 months of straight hell. Getting there now though.

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hmmmm medium? of course I don't want a window to end but as I've experienced a few windows/waves by now I also know that the waves come to an end... but yes, I'd rather feel good than miserable

2005-2006: Cipralex 5 mg

2009-2010: Cipralex 5 mg

2012-2015: Cipralex 5mg, 10mg 

tapered 10mg-7.5mg-5mg-2,5-0 (I always waited for a few weeks on the current dosage until I felt stable. Steps were too big I realized too late)

Completely drug free since August 2015

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I get that. Waves can have the appearance of being predictable and consistent, which is reassuring. When we start to enter a window it can be hard to trust it as they so often are shorter than waves, or in some cases so overwhelming as to be frightening. I realize that one of my biggest problems is having a fear of transitions. Maybe that's a common them in withdrawal for a subset of sufferers. Perhaps it's the hallmark of anxious people, to be more troubled by the transition from one to the other, in any direction, and to find any change difficult. 

 

I am in a window right now and I can feel the urge to just buy into denial and believe that this time the window is forever and I won't ever go through a bad wave again, only small, mild ones. Accepting that a wave will happen again is what gives me peace of mind, just as I must also accept that windows will happen to. Beyond that is the fact that for many people the cycle simply ends: we heal and can probably afford to forget all this every happened! :P

2012: 2 weeks of paroxetine, I cannot recall the dose. Strong side effects, stopped cold turkey, had intense, horrible withdrawal thereafter

2012 to 2016: Fluoxetine 40mg daily, sometimes 20mg daily, a couple of bad tapers under doctor's advisement, increasingly bad withdrawal symptoms with each major dose change

Oct 2016 to June 2017: 10-month reinstatement of 20mg fluoxetine daily to stabilize. A very difficult period but withdrawal gradually improved

July 2017: At 20mg (100%), started a linear tapering regimen using water titration (20mg fluoxetine into 300ml of water).

June 2019: Currently at 0.200mg (1.00%). I have many symptoms, most I attribute to fluoxetine, some to withdrawal, and the rest to hypothyroidism. Continuing to reduce anyway.

July 2019: Jumped from 0.066mg (0.33%) to 0.000mg (0.00%); I'm now free of the poison.

 

My introduction thread: https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/14226-kittygiggles-generic-prozac-fluoxetine-stabilization/

 

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I'm so sorry, stupid me i meant to say "fear a window ending".

Gussy

On effexor for at least 11 years. Last few years going through ivf treatment dose has ranged from 150-200mg. Mainly 150 though. Tapered from about 175mg mid jan 2017 to zero mid april 2017. 2&1/2 months of straight hell. Getting there now though.

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Thanks, Kittygiggles, for your wonderful insight. I think you're exactly right. The waves are one thing, the transitions quite another. The cycle from window to wave is just heartbreaking.

 

But my sense is that sometimes the windows are almost too good to be true. Sometimes they don't even feel like normal life, but as a kind of enhanced existence, as wondrous, magical life. Maybe that's simply because of sheer relief, but maybe there's something unreal about some windows as well. Perhaps the point is not so much that the waves in time  disappear to make way for one ongoing window, but rather that the waves and windows sort of integrate into regular imperfect existence. 

 

 

Paxil/Seroxat/paroxetine 10 mg for over 20 years

Several failed attempts at quitting

Slow tapering since June 2016 using liquid paroxetine

Presently stabilising at 0,15 ml (0,3 mg) because of the worst withdrawal so far

June 2017: tried tapering further to 0,1 ml (0,2 mg) but that backfired badly. Stabilising again at 0,15 ml.

July 15, 2017: down to 0

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2 minutes ago, Mourad said:

Thanks, Kittygiggles, for your wonderful insight. I think you're exactly right. The waves are one thing, the transitions quite another. The cycle from window to wave is just heartbreaking.

 

But my sense is that sometimes the windows are almost too good to be true. Sometimes they don't even feel like normal life, but as a kind of enhanced existence, as wondrous, magical life. Maybe that's simply because of sheer relief, but maybe there's something unreal about some windows as well. Perhaps the point is not so much that the waves in time  disappear to make way for one ongoing window, but rather that the waves and windows sort of integrate into regular imperfect existence. 

 

 

 I think that´s really right on point! I think so too, real life is a kind of balance between windows and waves and it will all even out in time!

 

2005-2006: Cipralex 5 mg

2009-2010: Cipralex 5 mg

2012-2015: Cipralex 5mg, 10mg 

tapered 10mg-7.5mg-5mg-2,5-0 (I always waited for a few weeks on the current dosage until I felt stable. Steps were too big I realized too late)

Completely drug free since August 2015

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  • 2 weeks later...

Thanks for all the great help here explaining about windows and waves. Alongside withdrawal from Mirt and contraceptives, I had gynaecological surgery 4 weeks ago. I have to remember to pace myself physically, emotionally, mentally. 

I have bookmarked this thread on my phone's home screen and put two new wallpapers on it to remind me: a Hokusai Japanese wave print and a Tiffany stained glass window. _20170801_094817.JPG.3f477e0c10e095dc22f76caca10c990d.JPG

Tsunami_by_hokusai_19th_century.jpg

January 2021: Cut Venlafaxine XR by 9% to 125mg; holding Lorazepam at 1.25 mg.

October 2020: Reduced Venlafaxine XR to 137.5 mg while keeping Lorazepam at 1.25 mg.

August 2020:  Made a 16% reduction in Lorazepam at psychiatrist's recommendation (1.25 mg) while holding Venlafaxine at 150 mg.

March 2019 - March 2020: Venlafaxine  XR tapered from  337.5 mg  to 150 mg (60% reduction), while continuing 1.5 mg Lorazepam.

March 2016 - January 2019: Mirtazapine taptered to 0, while continuing on 1.5 mg Lorazepam and 375 mg Venlafaxine XR.

Feb. 2015: 7.5 mg Mirtazapine + 1.5 mg Lorazepam + 375 mg Venlafaxine.

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

This is a very interesting and new way to appreciate what I go through. I am new at tapering..my last tapers were simply cold turkeys I had no idea what I was doing. Now that I have just one pill of lithium there have been moments where I feel lucid and "better" or symptom free...I guess these are windows. But most of the time it's expected to have waves or unexpected reactions. Any doctor would claim Im being bipolar but knowing that this will fade is very uplifting to know. Im wondering if once I am off all drugs for good how much time would it be to be completely normal? Will excercise and binging on healthy food be a plus that accelerates healing?  Also the neurotoxicity of lithium caused a constant emotionless perception pf life and I get excited just by thinking about how life would be once I started having lapses of emotion....this is a sign of break through for me. 

Hi. New signature...Sept 4

I am currently on 450 mgs of lithium and I take it three times a day after meals. I take 1 mg of klonopin as well before sleep. Im not changing or tapering for atleast 2 months. 

I cold turkeyed respirodone that I took between April and June due to psychosis. Having signs of involuntary movement or signs of tardive dis. every afternoon since I tapered lithium..

 

 

 

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Can I ask that when tapering how do you know to do your next drop in dose if your still getting windows and waves of withdrawal from your last drop. ?

1995 started Paxil 20mg slowly increasing to 50mg until 2014

-2014 I decided to tapper myself not knowing how too and crashed , DR added 50mg Seraquel

-2015 tried tapering again and crashed

Seroquel Taper

2/11/16 43mg  1/09/17  37.5mg  10/03/10 36.25mg. 17/3/19 35mg 26/3/19 33.75mg  4/4/19 32.5mg  21/4/19 30mg

16/7/19 28.75mg  5/8/19 27.5mg. 19/8/19 25mg   4/8/20 23mg 18/8/20 22.5mg  12/10/20 18.25mg  10/1/21 15mg  3/8/21 UPDOSE 16mg

Paxil Taper

2/11/16 40mg 12/10/17 37mg  28/10/17 36mg  10/1/18. 35mg  24/05/18 33mg  28/8/18 31mg 16/12/18 30mg 20/10/19 29mg  17/11/19 28mg 7/1/20  27mg 12/2/20  26mg 7/3 /20 25mg  11/4/20 24mg 4/5/20 23mg  5/6/20 22mg 23/6/20 21mg 15/7/20 20mg

Untitled.rtf

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Hi Cheeky,

I didn't taper properly. I didn't see this site until I was off of the drugs for a long time. I could have reinstated, but I didn't want to. My doctor advised a taper that was too quick and I suffered. Sorry I can't be more helpful. After a year, I am better...not back to normal though.

We have to just stay strong and know that we will get better. You will! Keep reading this site!

Nena

 

Oct 2016. 20 years fluoxetine (20 mg) and bupropion (400 mg). Ceased fluoxetine without taper and bupropion after 4 wk taper. Initial extreme fatigue resolved into moderate fatigue and depression with occasional brain zaps and tingling skin.
Oct 2017. Anhedonia, 90% of my day. Occasional anxiety. Milder brain zaps. In past two weeks, 3 window days and 11 wave days.
May 2019. Anhedonia, infrequent anxiety, mild brain zaps. Sleeping 6 hours nightly after lifetime of 8 hours. Typical daily pattern is wave until late afternoon, window until bedtime. Occasional full day windows.
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Hi Cheeky,

This is my opinion only. I will not move on to another taper until I am not getting any waves.  It has to be all windows before I move on.  But that is based on my history and what I have learned works for me. I up-dosed after a C.T.  and never want to go through that again. I am now doing a cautious taper.  I am sure others on the site have different experiences.

RS

HISTORY

Feb. 2016 to June 2016  - Was on 150mg Zoloft. 

Quit Zoloft (Sertraline) June  2016,  reinstated 50mg of Zoloft July 2016.  From July 2016  to October 2016 went from 50 mg down 2.3 mg. I up-dosed in November 2016 to 12.5 mg. Held there until January 2017 when I started a much slower taper.

STARTING SENSIBLE  ZOLOFT TAPERING USING GUIDELINES FROM THIS SITE

Dec. 10 2016  - switched to Liquid Zoloft (Sertraline) @ 12.5 mg.   Jan. 4, 2020 1.875 mg (6.3%). Jan. 25, 2020 1.75 mgFeb. 29, 2020 1.625mg (7.10%).  Apr. 4, 2020 1.5 mg.  May 9, 2020 1.375 mg.  June 6, 2020 1.25 mg. (9.10%).  July 4, 2020 1.125 mg. (10%).  August 15, 2020 1.0 mg.  Oct 24, 2020 .875 mg.  Nov. 28, 2020 .75mgJan 16, 2021 .685mg (8.7%).  Feb 13, 2021 .62mg. March 12, 2021 .56mg.  May 1, 2021 .375mg.  May 29, 2021 .25mg. June 26, 2021 .0125mg. July 25, 2021 .065mg. August 22, 2021 .048mg.  October 2, 2021 .043mg.  October 10, 2021 .038mg.  October 23, 2021 .035mg.  October 30, 2021 .032mg.  Nov. 13, 2021 .030 mg.  Dec 4, 2021 .0285 mg.  Dec 11, 2021 .0265 mg. Dec 18, 2021 .0246 mg. Dec 25, 2021 .023mg. Jan 1, 2022. 0 mg. OFF COMPLETELY

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  • Moderator Emeritus
2 hours ago, Cheeky said:

Can I ask that when tapering how do you know to do your next drop in dose if your still getting windows and waves of withdrawal from your last drop. ?

 

See these topics:

 

Stabilising After a Reduction - What Does That Mean?

Withdrawal Normal Description

 VIDEO:   Antidepressant Withdrawal Syndrome and its Management

 

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED:    (6 year taper)      0mg Pristiq      on 13th November 2021

Woohoo!!!  Finally off Pristiq    Post 0 updates start here

ADs since ~1992:  25+ years - 1 unknown, Prozac (muscle weakness), Zoloft; citalopram (pooped out) CTed (very sick for 2.5 wks a few months after); Pristiq:  50mg 2012, 100mg beg 2013 (Serotonin Toxicity)  Tapering from Oct 2015 - 13 Nov 2021   LAST DOSE 0.0025mg

My full tapering program     My Intro (goes to my tapering graph)    My website

PLEASE NOTE:  I am not a medical professional.  I provide information and make suggestions.  Please DO NOT TAG me - thank you.

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  • 2 months later...

The waves and windows , thank you for this. It explains exactly how I feel. For many yearsI have been thinking I might be Bi polar!

 

Started on this merry-go-round of antidepressants in 1995 after getting a diagnosis of Post Natal Depression : Been on Prozac, Effexor, Lexapro, Celexa, Sertraline, Mirtazapine, Mostly fast taper except Sertraline CT'd.

Recent history: Prozac 20mgs then upped to 40mgs  Nov 2014- Mid August 2017  Taper : 20mgs daily for 14 days : 20mgs every other day for 14 days  20mgs every third day for 9 days- Jumped off  on 25th Setember 2017. Mirtazapine 30mgs for 1day ( 18th Sep 2017) Mirtazapine 15mgs (19th Sept - 18th Oct 2017)Mirtazapine 30 mgs   (19th Oct - 4th Nov 2017)   Cold Turkey.  Reinstated Prozac 20mgs 5th November 2017. Reinstated Mirtazapine 2mls  10th November 2017.

Prozac 10mgs from 21 January 2018. Zero Mirtazapine 31 December 2017

All other drugs:  Following a sudden onset of Autoimmune Arthritis : Prednisone 30mgs daily, March 2014- Sept 2014- slow taper. Methotrexte 15 mgs weekly May 2014- Sept 2107. swapped for Sulfasazaline 1000mgs daily Oct 2017 continuing. Folic Acid 5mgs weekly May 2014. until 2 Feb 2018 

Current drugs. 1500mgs Sulfasazaline 2 feb 2018.  Fish Oil 600mgs daily. Magnesium 250mg daily. Prozac 10mgs daily  

  April 2018.. 1000 mgs Sulfasazaline, Prozac 9 mgs, Magnesium 250 mgs 

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once I knew I was in wirhdrawal I smiled at doctors suggesting I was bipolar:)))I am in (a hopefully my last) window for 7 months. now and not just a so- so, I am really feeling good:) hang in there, it's going to be alraight!

2005-2006: Cipralex 5 mg

2009-2010: Cipralex 5 mg

2012-2015: Cipralex 5mg, 10mg 

tapered 10mg-7.5mg-5mg-2,5-0 (I always waited for a few weeks on the current dosage until I felt stable. Steps were too big I realized too late)

Completely drug free since August 2015

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 5/30/2017 at 12:20 PM, miT said:

I definitely escaped my imagined disney-like world by direct confrontation with my suffering. The only problem is that I'm so sensitive in this wd process that I tend to overreact or overprotect

 

Same here . But I feel bad about it. It was my world for motivation where I was doing things and I could have done a lot. In this world I am helpless with my abilities taken and I had no plans for it.

08/13 - 01/14
Olanzapine, petril MD (Clonazepam ), Dicorate ER (divalproex). Soza 10 (Zolpidem)

02/14 - 05/14
Flunil ​20mg , Divaa OD 250 mg(divalproex), Amisulpride 50mg (1-0-2), zolfresh 5 mg , Quetiapine
05/14 - 08/14 Venlafaxine 75 xr ( 1-0-1), zapiz 0.25
10/14 Zaptra 12.5mg , Oxetol xr 150mg (0-0-1)
11/14 - 08/15
Paris CR 25 (paroxetine) , Oxetol xr 600 mg (0-0-1), nitrest 5mg , Quetiapine for a month.
09/15-11 Venlafaxine XR 75 ( 1-0-1), Mirtazipine 15, Respiredal 0.5, Lamitor 25, zillion 10.
12/15-02/16 Off Meds (C.T)

03/16-Mid April Sertraline, Aripropazole, Quetiapine, Etizolam.

After that : CT and on OTC supplements (Roadback), now on Ayurveda
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  • 1 month later...
  • Moderator

I was listening to excellent talks by Jeff Foster:

 

Jeff Foster - Deepest Acceptance - 1 hour talk

 

If you like it, there's also a part 2:

 

Jeff Foster - Deepest Acceptance - Part 2

 

He talks about how we are the ocean.  The traumas and difficulties we experience are not something to be fought - they are a part of us.  The waves are just a part of us, but we endure.  The waves come and go, and each moment is different - sometimes painful and turbulent, sometimes calm, but in each moment - we are still the ocean.  There is nothing - absolutely nothing - that waves our ocean which can disturb the deep.

I'm not as eloquent as he is, so I recommend listening to his talk.

Also - I've been posting this around, but it applies here.  It was done for an eating disorders recovery group - but it's too good not to share:

 

 

 

"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.


The tedious thread (my intro):  JanCarol ☼ Reboxetine first, then Lithium

The happy thread (my success story):  JanCarol - Undiagnosed  Off all bipolar drugs

My own blog:  https://shamanexplorations.com/shamans-blog/

 

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!

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Anyone any thoughts about rapid wave/window patterns? I have gone from them lasting days to now lasting hours. From normal to horrendous, several times a day.

Current daily meds. Citalopram 2.5mg morning. Diazapam 1.5mg evening, Propanalol 40mg split 4x10mg throughout day.

 

Recent meds. Fluoxetine 20mg began 24th Nov 2017, CT on 4th December on medical advice due to bad Akathisia. Citalopram 10mg began on 13th Dec 2017, tapered to 2.5mg by 20th Dec 2017 on medical advice. Diazapam 2mg began on 6th Dec 2017 cut to 1.5 mg on 26th Dec. Propanalol 40mg began on 13th Dec. Zopiclone 3.75 mg began 13th December, used maybe 5 times then quit.

 

Previous history. Tricyclics, Fluoxetine or Citalopram for periods of 6mo to 2yrs over last 25 years. Probably 5 yrs in total. No significant ill effects.

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I just had a quick question that I was hoping someone might be able to answer. Is it common to have more than one acute wave when you're going through withdrawal? I had an acute wave after my initial C/T and then I had a terrible acute wave at the beginning of November, and now I feel like I'm starting to go into another one. Is this common in withdrawal? Is it unusual to have more than one severe wave?

  1. Started Wellbutrin 75 mg IR the end of 2015.
  2. Tried quitting cold turkey in June 30th- July 3rd 2017.
  3. Had severe withdrawals.
  4. Was placed on Wellbutrin 100mg SR so I could taper without withdrawal.
  5. Stabilized on 100mg SR for most of the month of July.
  6. Started tapering on July 17th,  2017.
  7. Completed taper on August 8th, 2017.
  8. Currently experiencing severe withdrawal.
  • Symptoms- Currently experiencing anhedonia, depersonalization/derealization, concentration/memory issues, chronic congestion, chronic dry eyes, dry skin, dislocated TMJ joint from teeth grinding during C/T withdrawal, waves of depression, anxiety, nausea, morning cortisol spikes, insomnia, agitation, food sensitivities, no tolerance for caffeine and chronic fatigue, burning muscle pain in upper and lower back and occasional tinninitus.
  • Supplements- Omega-3 fish oil supplement twice daily, 100 mg of magnesium once daily. 
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I ask this because my last wave included a lot of suicidal depression, and I feel like I'm starting to feel that way again. Can someone please give me some feedback? Should I expect a wave that is just as bad or worse than my previous acute wave? 

  1. Started Wellbutrin 75 mg IR the end of 2015.
  2. Tried quitting cold turkey in June 30th- July 3rd 2017.
  3. Had severe withdrawals.
  4. Was placed on Wellbutrin 100mg SR so I could taper without withdrawal.
  5. Stabilized on 100mg SR for most of the month of July.
  6. Started tapering on July 17th,  2017.
  7. Completed taper on August 8th, 2017.
  8. Currently experiencing severe withdrawal.
  • Symptoms- Currently experiencing anhedonia, depersonalization/derealization, concentration/memory issues, chronic congestion, chronic dry eyes, dry skin, dislocated TMJ joint from teeth grinding during C/T withdrawal, waves of depression, anxiety, nausea, morning cortisol spikes, insomnia, agitation, food sensitivities, no tolerance for caffeine and chronic fatigue, burning muscle pain in upper and lower back and occasional tinninitus.
  • Supplements- Omega-3 fish oil supplement twice daily, 100 mg of magnesium once daily. 
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Hi H well done on being drug free ,a mod would know more ,but I think I'm qualified being a member that's in protracted withdrawl ,I don't think theres anything unusual about going into another wave ,this process isn't linear ,it can be all over the place ,I suppose we just have to learn from each experience and get our toolkit together and ready for the next wave ,so many things can set us off into a wave .its best to learn what these stresses are and when your hit with the wave deal with it as best you can and be careful  being around triggers or places that make the wave worse .

we can also turn ourselves into a knot with worrying when the next one hits but watch out for this and try and relax as best you can and remember you will get through the wave as you did the last time and be ok .

Alcohol free since February 2015 

1MG diazepam

4.5MG PROZAC.

 

 

 

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  • ChessieCat changed the title to Do strong emotions cause waves or are they caused by waves?
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