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What is happening in your brain?


Altostrata

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6 hours ago, Altostrata said:

The dysregulation caused by psychiatric drug withdrawal affects all the systems in the body.

 

 

This is a common symptom of dyautonomia or dysregulation of the autonomic nervous system. Your improvement is typical of withdrawal-related dysautonomia.

Thanks for your reply. I.m going to look this term up with much interest. Can.t wait for your med normal screening either. I had a quick look at dysautonomia and it showed me another example of how poor drs knowledge is, at the dr earlier this year i spoke of bp type symptoms since stopping effexor (almost 3 years ago at that point), it was put down to anxiety or me imagining it. No surprise to you i.m sure.

Edited by Gussy
Added something.

Gussy

On effexor for at least 11 years. Last few years going through ivf treatment dose has ranged from 150-200mg. Mainly 150 though. Tapered from about 175mg mid jan 2017 to zero mid april 2017. 2&1/2 months of straight hell. Getting there now though.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 7/28/2020 at 3:33 AM, Altostrata said:

The dysregulation caused by psychiatric drug withdrawal affects all the systems in the body.

 

 

This is a common symptom of dyautonomia or dysregulation of the autonomic nervous system. Your improvement is typical of withdrawal-related dysautonomia.

Thanks for your reply again, it sounds like many things that happen could come down to this? Things like twitching muscles, muscle pains, nerves going crazy in parts of about body etc? I've heard many talk about racing heartbeats, I think it already explaines the sensitivities to stimulus? Do you agree with this? Funny thing, I've got Metallica going very loud in my car and it's still gets to me but not like it used to. Having it mess up my emotions a little bit and sometimes make tears come out isn.t going to stop me anymore. Thanks again, Gus.

Gussy

On effexor for at least 11 years. Last few years going through ivf treatment dose has ranged from 150-200mg. Mainly 150 though. Tapered from about 175mg mid jan 2017 to zero mid april 2017. 2&1/2 months of straight hell. Getting there now though.

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Yes, the autonomic nervous system regulates many things, including blood pressure, heart rate, temperature regulation, muscle tension.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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  • 9 months later...

thank you for this @Altostrata 🙏 

2021:  started celexa 10mg feb 2nd 

feb 25th took my last 10g; feb 26th 5mg; feb 27th 5mg; feb 28th 2021 cold turkey 

currently taking mag

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  • 11 months later...
  • Moderator Emeritus
1 hour ago, rebeccaannxo said:

Does all the information on this thread apply to adverse reactions as well? 

 

immediate-adverse-reactions-to-an-antidepressant-or-within-a-few-doses-how-long-for-recovery

 

But I only took it for a Week - immediate adverse reaction

 

Alto posted this to another member recently:

  

On 5/13/2022 at 8:25 AM, Altostrata said:

These people, who are tagged "immediate ADR", have symptoms that are like protracted withdrawal syndrome but they don't have withdrawal syndrome, they have similar symptoms because their nervous systems were upset by taking the drug. Their recovery is slow, with frustrating waves and windows, like people with withdrawal syndrome. Since they had a serious ADR to an antidepressant, they probably should not consider reinstatement.

 

 

* NO LONGER ACTIVE on SA *

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED:  (6 year taper)      0mg Pristiq  on 13th November 2021

ADs since ~1992:  25+ years - 1 unknown, Prozac (muscle weakness), Zoloft; citalopram (pooped out) CTed (very sick for 2.5 wks a few months after); Pristiq:  50mg 2012, 100mg beg 2013 (Serotonin Toxicity)  Tapering from Oct 2015 - 13 Nov 2021   LAST DOSE 0.0025mg

Post 0 updates start here    My tapering program     My Intro (goes to tapering graph)

 VIDEO:   Antidepressant Withdrawal Syndrome and its Management

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  • 3 months later...
On 12/26/2015 at 2:37 PM, Altostrata said:

Similarly, other things can help "confuse" nerves:
-Heat
-Cold

 

Perhaps a weird question, but could something like this not just help us cope, but instead accelerate our brain healing? 

Like, a cold shower or wim hof like polar dip or something. I know a lot of regular people like these methods for mental wellness, but I wonder if that would apply to someone going through antidepressant withdrawals as well. Or is time just the name of the game here? 

 

I know we have a lack of studies/evidence for WDs but if anyone has any guesses or personal experiences I would love to hear. 

- Prozac (Fluoxetine) 40 mg, beginning 2010 - quit February 2022
- Wellbutrin (Bupropion) 300 mg, beginning 2016 - quit February 2022
- Severe withdrawal symptoms begin July 2022
- Reinstated Prozac (Fluoxetine) 10 mg August 2022
 
 
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13 minutes ago, kikkirimo009 said:

 

Perhaps a weird question, but could something like this not just help us cope, but instead accelerate our brain healing? 

Like, a cold shower or wim hof like polar dip or something. I know a lot of regular people like these methods for mental wellness, but I wonder if that would apply to someone going through antidepressant withdrawals as well. Or is time just the name of the game here? 

 

I know we have a lack of studies/evidence for WDs but if anyone has any guesses or personal experiences I would love to hear. 

 

Some SA members find cold water swimming/showers helpful.

* NO LONGER ACTIVE on SA *

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED:  (6 year taper)      0mg Pristiq  on 13th November 2021

ADs since ~1992:  25+ years - 1 unknown, Prozac (muscle weakness), Zoloft; citalopram (pooped out) CTed (very sick for 2.5 wks a few months after); Pristiq:  50mg 2012, 100mg beg 2013 (Serotonin Toxicity)  Tapering from Oct 2015 - 13 Nov 2021   LAST DOSE 0.0025mg

Post 0 updates start here    My tapering program     My Intro (goes to tapering graph)

 VIDEO:   Antidepressant Withdrawal Syndrome and its Management

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  • 3 months later...

I have been doing some research on healing the hypothalamus and found 2 articles that may be helpful along with links which describe what the hypothalamus is responsible for in the human body. Once you understand the basic functions of the hypothalamus it is very easy to see why all of the psych meds as well as street drugs and other meds which muck around with neurotransmitter levels and neurotransmitter function used in other branches of medicine can be so disruptive to the mind and body. Even things like Benadryl and Dramamine taken on a daily basis can wreak havoc. I have read that during the first 6-8 weeks most of these disruptive drugs tend to take your brain and body in one direction but after 6-8 weeks the process halts and then reverses itself and heads back in the opposite direction and eventually goes on to cause dysfunction because the ability of the brain to maintain homeostasis is compromised and the reactions you end up with become more severe and unpredictable over time especially with higher doses. The good news is that I have read in several places that researchers are finding that the hypothalamus is one of the areas of the brain that can actually undergo regeneration over time and damage to the hypothalamus can be repaired if you give your brain and body the right conditions under which it can heal. This is evidenced in the slow and steady healing I am seeing in my charts I keep at home. The recommendations in the posted articles pretty closely resemble what many members have found useful through trial and error and may or may not work for you. These included exercise, Omega-3's (Fish Oil), and stress reduction. There are specific nutrients, micro nutrients, and foods listed in these links that may be helpful and some are on the food list that I posted earlier on my personal thread. Personally I feel like focusing on foods which contain the necessary nutrients over supplementation is the way to go but we are all different as are our tolerances to different foods and supplements.

 

In doing all of this reading it makes me wonder if testing for hypothalamus function (dysfunction) over time may be a way to gauge healing progress and if some of the treatments for hypothalamus damage may offer relief and that perhaps this may be a direction to go in the ongoing research on what to do about managing withdrawal and PAWS. This is just a thought and not a recommendation.

 

 

What is they hypothalamus and what is it's function?

 

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/22566-hypothalamus

 

https://www.webmd.com/brain/what-to-know-about-hypothalamus

 

Ways to help the hypothalamus heal.

 

https://www.livestrong.com/article/426199-how-to-reset-the-hypothalamus-for-weight-loss/

 

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/upstream-healing-tips-for-a-healthy-hypothalamus_b_591b8b5ee4b021dd5a828fcd

Current Psychiatric Medications

  1. Paxil 10mg daily (a.m.) 2017 - Present
  2. Carbamazepine IR  182 mg twice daily (364mg Daily) 2011 - Present (Currently Tapering)

Past Psychiatric Medications From 1994 to August 2021   Seroquel (in Recovery since August 2021 final dose 6.25mg), Depakote, Lithium, Risperidone, Xanax, Lamotrigene, Olanzapine, Lorazepam, Welbutrin, Trazodone, Oxazepam, Gabapentin, Abilify, Topiramate, Prazosin, Ambien (See Attached Spreadsheet And Seroquel Tapering And WIthdrawal Summary)

Current Non Psychiatric Medications Levothyroxine 88mcg (a.m.)-Vitamin D3 1000 IU (p.m.)-Fexofenadine 180 mg twice daily -Clonidine 0.1 mg (p.m.)-Azelastine / Ipratropium / Nasacort Nasal Spray

Other - Fish Oil Twice Daily-Multi-Vitamin (a.m.)-Vitamin C 1000mg Daily (a.m.)-Saline Nasal Spray-Salsalate 750mg twice daily PRN, Diclofenac Gel on affected joint PRN-Magnesium Citrate 250mg twice daily, Betaine HCL & Digestine Enzymes With Meals

Quitting Seroquel_A Vacation In Hell_Redacted.pdf

Other Documents https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/26099-feralcatman-recovering-from-seroquel/?do=findComment&comment=633907

 

 

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What an excellent thread with some excellent posts. I needed to read this today.

Age 16 (1995 - 2000) -Paroxetine
Age 21 (2000-2004) - Effexor 37.5mg
Age 24 (2004-2012) - Lexapro (70mg), Xanax minimum 2mg Xanax a day
About 32 (2012-2017?) - Every mood stabiliser under the sun (not at the same time) and minimum 2mg Xanax a day; occasional amisulpride 
About 35 (2017-current) - Lurasidone 80 mg, quickly titrated down to 40mg, Pristiq (50 mg), minimum of 2mg Xanax a day
About 41 (2020) Switched from Xanax to clonazepam and started tapering at 0.125 mg each reduction, tapered off Pristiq with a cross taper at the end, low dose of dextroamphetamine.
Age 42 (2021) Tried to taper off Lurasidone three times. Quick taper from 40mg to 0 mg over a couple of months the first time. Reinstated at 20mg. Tried twice more to taper from 20 mg to 0 mg dropping by 5 mg each reduction (about every 2 weeks).
Age 42-43 (April 2022) 20mg-18mg; May 18mg-16mg; June 16-14mg; September 14-12mg; September 12-14mg reinstated. February 2023 - hiccup with brand change, Back to Apotek brand and switch to homemade suspension.

Age 44 (August 2023 -restarted clonazepam taper). Start dose 0.375mg. 1/9/2023 - 0.365mg; 1/10/2023 - 0.324mg; 1/11/2023 - 0.264mg; 1/12/2023 - 0.25 mg (holding); 1/2/2024 - 0.232mg; 1/3/2024 - 0.221mg; 1/4/2024 - 0.205mg;

Health regimen: walks, hot/cold showers, ice baths, breathwork, mostly healthy diet, therapy...... Open to ideas! Supplements: Milk Kefir, Mag, Omega 3, CBD/THC.

 

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I can’t believe I’ve only just read that first post after being a member here for a while.

 

Amazing stuff, thank you.

Oct 2018 - Jun 2020: 10 mg per day generic Escitalopram in pill form.

Jul 2020 - Aug 2020: Switched to 9 mg per day of Cipralex drops to aid tapering.

Sep 2020 - Oct 2020: Taper to 8 mg.

Nov 2020 - Dec 2020: Taper to 7 mg.

Jan 2021 - Feb 2021: Taper to 6 mg.

Mar 2021 - Apr 2021: Taper to 5 mg.

May 2021 - Jun 2021: Taper to 4 mg.

Jul 2021 - Sep 2021: Taper to 3 mg.

Sep 2021 - Jan 2022: Taper to 2 mg.

Jan 2022: Stopped taking altogether.

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  • 5 months later...
On 12/26/2015 at 8:37 PM, Altostrata said:



« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 03:19:54 pm by [buddie] »


Hi! Thanks for your research and sharing info!
Are there any correlations between gluten-sensitivity and having agoraphobia, and other phobias/problems due to overstimulated amygdala? I stumbled upn this https://neuroendoimmune.wordpress.com/2014/06/03/is-gluten-making-you-overstimulated/
 

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20 hours ago, lillo9546 said:


Hi! Thanks for your research and sharing info!
Are there any correlations between gluten-sensitivity and having agoraphobia, and other phobias/problems due to overstimulated amygdala? I stumbled upn this https://neuroendoimmune.wordpress.com/2014/06/03/is-gluten-making-you-overstimulated/

 

Not that I know of. The Web is full of these theories.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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WOW, great post and info. I had to read things 2 or 3 times and the common sense approach helps along with makes some things easier to understand! Thanks for this!

2004 Interveinal Diazepam when needed

2004-2020 100mg Zoloft and .5mg Clonazepam day

March 2020  Zoloft 250mg/day, had reaction, dropped back down 100mg/day

June 2020 Buspar 10mg 3 times a day, Escitalopram 40mg/day, Gabapentin 400mg/day, Divalproex 750mg/day, Clonazepam .5mg/day

2021 Changes , no more Gabapentin, no more Divalproex, no more Buspar 

2022  Duloxetine 30mg/day, Clonazepam .5mg/day

2022  Venlafaxine 37.5 mg/day then 75mg/day, Clonazepam .5mg/day

2022 No more Venlafaxine=Abruptly taken off by Doctor

October 2022 , Hospitalized and put back on Venlafaxine then moved back to Duloxetine 30mg/day, Clonazepam .5mg/day

Jan 2023 too many medication changes

February 2023 Prozac 5mg/day to taper off of Duloxetine then  Prozac 2.5mg/day

Now  NO SSRI,  Clonazepam .5mg/day and Suffering

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On 12/26/2015 at 7:37 PM, Altostrata said:

This explanation of withdrawal syndrome -- in this case, benzodiazepine withdrawal syndrome -- is a post from BenzoBuddies used by the permission of the author, who wishes to remain anonymous.

 

After 4 years off, she has mostly recovered except for some vision problems (as she describes below) and is fully functional.

 

The domino effect of neurotransmitter dysregulation she describes here regarding GABA and glutamate also applies generally to all the other neurotransmitters affected by psychiatric drugs. They are all necessary, working in harmony, like an orchestra. Dysregulate one, and the others tend to get dysregulated, too.

What is happening in your brain?

October 03, 2012, 09:08:49 pm
 
This will hopefully be an encouraging email to make you feel SAFE and ENCOURAGED.

As some of you may know, my degrees are in speech-language pathology (B.A and M.S.)
As part of my Masters study, a big portion of my classes were in neuroanatomy and physiology.
I learned firsthand how to look at a person who had just undergone a stroke or brain injury and read the symptoms, the radiology reports, the doctor's notes,  and based on those symptoms, to form an image in my mind of what was affected in the brain injury - as well as how to formulate a treatment plan to help that person rehabilitate. For a therapist in a hospital, it is much more than "speech and language". It is about reteaching how to swallow, eat,  rebuilding memory, rebuilding concentation and attention, rebuilding focus, rebuilding executive functioning skills (planning and acting on a plan) -[...] much ANYTHING that is involved in "thinking" that helps you get OUT of a coma, OUT of a hospital, and back to [...], work, and school. 

I had NO idea I would ever personally undergo a brain injury.  But insomuch as I have now indeed endured one, I often laid there in waves and attempted to "analyze and decipher" what was happening in my brain as I healed. I thought you all might like to read this. It gives potential answers to all the "WHY?" questions we have about what is happening to us mentally.

First of all, a TRUTH to accept is that WE HEAL.  I have seen people emerge from comas who cannot remember who they are - HEAL.
They can't remember how to walk (we do).
They can't write their names (we can).
They cannot tell you the year or the president (I was SO bad I was unsure of this at times, but generally, I was oriented to this).
They often cannot remember family members (we can -our D/R can be hideous, but we remember them).
THEY have to work through many hours of therapy to heal. But most of them do - and from TRAUMATIC PHYSICAL brain trauma that can tear tissue and tear nerves.
We have none of that. We don't have to undergo therapy. We simply have to wait.

Most of us, me included, didn't expect the temporary "brain injury" we got when jumping off benzos.
But I [...] starting to realize through my own experience and my educational background, that there is a PURPOSE in every symptom we have.  I have had months and months to analyze what is likely going on in the brain at a gross level - and I want to attempt to explain certain symptoms in a way that we can visualize - so that they are less "scary" and more "telling" of the healing that is happening.

First off - let's start with GABA and Glutamate. Most of you may know how this works by this point. But for those that don't, we have a huge nervous system of millions of nerves (neurons).  They don't "touch" each other. They are separated by a tiny space in between. However, they communicate via chemicals. The 2 MAIN chemicals in the entire nervous system are the BIG GUNS.  They are GABA and Glutamate. They are BOTH at work at ALL times in the CNS.  It isn't like one is working and then the other is working. They are BOTH ALWAYS working in tandem to control every aspect of movement, sensation  - everything. They take the incoming information and appropriately pass it along - they "trim up" the information appropriately so that we can process it.  They are like the steel structure of a building.  The entire building needs a steel structure to stand. 

GABA is inihibitory.  If a nerve releases GABA - it is to Inhibit function - this could be to "slow it down" or it could be to "limit the sensory input" so that we can process it.  In the same way, GABA might be released to help "steady" your hand while doing something like painting a very detailed painting.  GABA "shores up" movements to make them more fluid.   That's just in a nutshell. Of COURSE it does a lot more than this, but the idea is that GABA is present in the ENTIRE CNS and ALWAYS working to balance every sensation, movement, etc.

Likewise, Glutamate is the balance to GABA. It is the "excitatory" transmitter. It fires to speed things up - to initiate action - to make things "go".  There's a lot more to it, but Glutamate is kinda the opposite of GABA.   

BOTH are required to work at all times.  Neurons are ALL ALWAYS firing off GABA and Glutamate on a endless cycle all throughout the nervous system. It's quite amazing really.

What does a benzo do?  If a person is anxious - they may be so stressed that they cannot overcome a very traumatic event or anxious situation.  If a doctor prescribes a benzo - the benzo comes in and sorta "holds the door open" for ALL the GABA in the system to FLOOD into the nerves - even when that is not what the nerves would actually want to occur. The immediate effect is that EVERYTHING ni the body SLOWS DOWN and is inhibited. This might be helpful during surgery, for anesthesia, for a seizure disorder.  Yes - the benzo - by definition - will act on GABA and "slow everything down".  And yes - the net effect of this is that a person may feel drowsy, calm, less anxious... everything is being inhibited.    And in general, taking a benzo for "one day"  is okay. When the benzo is gone, the body just reverts back to regular operation.
HOWEVER, if a person takes a benzo day after day,  while indeed the person feels less anxious, the body begins to realize that it cannot DO the things it needs to do in this very slowed-down neuron state. It cannot make hormones. It cannot create enzymes. It cannot digest correctly. It cannot keep a heart going efficiently. It cannot get enough oxygen- and on and on. The body NEEDS to run at "normal" speed - not this "inhibited speed" all slowed down. 
But what can the body do? It cannot "remove the benzo" from the system. The only choice the body has to maintain a regular speed is to do two things ..  It can TURN OFF it's own GABA receptors - thereby rendering those benzos unable to affect the GABA in the system. And it can grow MORE excitatory Glutamate receptors to counteract the slow-down.  And that's kinda exactly what happens....

Only - this isn't true balance either.  The body does the best it can - but over time, things begin to suffer.  The body cannot make enough serotonin in this state. Or dopamine. Some things get made in excess - and other things do not get made enough!  During this time, a person may not be aware this is all going on. He may not be able to perceive any difference. But ONE day - the person may wake up sad - or not sleeping well - or unable to remember things fully - or his vision doesn't look right....and it becomes apparent the person has "hit tolerance".  The body is taking the same amount of drug -but try as it might, it just cannot overcome what has occured. It can take weeks, months or years to hit tolerance. Some people do and some don't before [...] to get off benzos.  (I did. - it took me 9 months to hit tolerance.  But it was fast.  Once I hit it, I could notsleep more than 6 hours on all that klonopin AND Ambien! I couldn't remember things last week. I was crying all the time... something was wrong.)

The process to reverse this takes a while.  GABA receptors have to UPregulate and effectively "reopen" or "grow back".  Glutamate receptors must DOWNregulate, or effectively "turn off" or "prune back".  And IN this mix, all the smaller monoamines (neurotransmitters like serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine) must somehow find a way to synthesize in the mix.  Through weeks and months the body is rebuildling millions of neurons, and changing pathways, rebuilding GABA, downregulating Glutamate, rebuilding serotonin, rebuilding dopamine, rebuilding norepinephrine.  And ALL the enzymes and hormones that need to be made are attempting to be made while this is going on.  Basically- you have a building where the MAJOR steel structures are [...] to be rebuilt at different times - ALL while people are coming and going in the building and attempting to work.

It would be like if the World Trade Center Towers hadn't completely fallen - but had crumbled inside in different places.. Imagine if you were [...] to rebuild the tower - WHILE people were coming and going and [...] to work in the building!  You'd have to set up a temporary elevator - but when you needed to fix part of that area, you'd have to tear down that elevator and set up a temporary elevator somewhere else. And so on. You'd have to build, work around, then tear down, then build again, then work around, then build... ALL while people are coming and going, ALL while the furniture is being replaced, ALL while the walls are getting repainted... ALL while [...] is going on INSIDE the building. No doubt it would be chaotic. That is EXACTLY what is happening with windows and waves.  The windows are where the body has "got it right" for a day or so - but then the building shifts and the brain works on something else - and it's chaos again while another temporary pathway is set up to reroute function until repairs are made. 
And just like the Twin Towers- it's possible - but the building is a major effort -and it takes a good year or more sometimes. http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/Smileys/standard/smiley.gif
(Now look at the new Tower that stands at Ground Zero!  It's taller, [...], and a symbol of freedom.  JUST like you will be!  http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/Smileys/standard/thumbsup.gif)

So - okay - what is happening in that chaos?  What parts of the brain are responsible for these symptoms? 

Now, I don't "know" the following based on research, because not enough research has been done yet  - but based on my studies in neuroanatomy and my own withdrawal experiences, here is how I have analyzed what is "happening" during wave symptoms. Remember, I have had to look at radiology reports of brain damage and estimate what a patient might present with - so this is very similar. Instead of a radiology report showing me what has been damaged, I'm using my own brain symptoms to surmise what is going on....

Let me first list brain structures and their functions. This will help you understand where things happen in the brain and when symptoms occur, what may be happening.

BRAIN STRUCTURES
amygdala  - This is the FEAR center in the brain. It's a tiny part in the middle of your brain. Fear is protective and it's GREAT if you need to assess something that is dangerous and to ACT  - like if a rabid dog were chasing you. - but it's hard in recoveyr when it's all you feel for months! But the FEAR is not truly in your MIND. It's in your BRAIN.  There is too much glutamate acting here in the amygdala and not enough GABA. So the nerves are firing off in the fear center when nothing scary is really there in your environment.  It is normal for that to happen given the circumstance physiologically. But it feels awful, doesn't it?  I know.  But it's just a brain structure. This can account for fear, agoraphobia, fear of water, fear of anything.  It's not that you're really "scared" of the moon - it's that you're in almost constant fear because this brain structure is healing. The glutamate is pruning back. The GABA receptors are opening back up.  It may or may not continue for awhile. It will abate. Then come back. But eventually, the brain will get it right.  http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/Smileys/standard/smiley.gif

Hippocampus - This is the "memory" center of the brain. It ties in old memories to emotions.  The same thing is happening here that is happening in the amygdala with GABA and Glutamate. So - voila. You get intrusive memories from ALL times in your [...].  It's wild and wicked and wooly. But it can't hurt you. And if you can learn to visualize this as what is happening - then you can learn to be objective and realize it's normal.  And like the amygdala - it will come and go and frustrate you, but it will go away when the physiology is restored.

Hypothalamus This is the structure that is responsible for regulating body temperature. In early withdrawal, my body temperature would drop to 96 degrees in waves! Then 3 hours later, it would return to normal. I'd literally freeze in terror in bed for hours.  I [...] sure it is more complicated that JUST the hypothalamus, but I could picture this part of my brain retuning and restructuring, and it was less scary that way.

The following structures in the brain are part of the "gray matter" or the "cortex "and what we consider to be the "higher brain"- the thinking and processing parts.

Frontal Lobe This is the part of the brain behind the front of the skull. It is responsible for planning things. For making decisions. For inhibiting emotions appropriately.  It is the part of the brain you need if you want to make a sandwich and need to get out the ingredients and actually make the sandwich. I have seen people with brain injury be able to TELL you how to make a sandwich - but when they are standing there in front of all the ingredients, they cannot actually move to act to make it! They have frontal lobe damage. They can TELL someone how to make it. But they cannot themselves initiate doing it! As you can imagine, with therapy, and time to heal, this goes away. And we are a lot like this - but it goes away for us, too.  I could not organize my children't toys just 4 months ago.  Not a simple room of toys. I didn't know where to start and I literally could not mentally do it. I imagine this is partly why.  No frontal lobe GABA. http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/Smileys/standard/smiley.gif And too much Glutamate.   But now, check out this post I"m typing.  Obviously that changed. http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/Smileys/standard/smiley.gif
This calms down and these things come back.

Occipital Lobe This is the vision center. t's at the back of your skull.   In recovery, my nerves have been all wacked here. I see things as too bright - possible due to this lobe - and/or the actual visual nerves in the eyes.  But no doubt people "see things" that aren't there.  Vision is distorted. Things go blurry.  Colors are totally off.Brightness is off.  There are a hundred symptoms possible in vision alone!  But again - it's a matter of time.

Vestibular System This is the system of semi-circular canals in the inner ear that are responsible for making you feel balanced in space.  When this is "off" or damaged temporarily, you feel dizzy. Oh man, was I dizzy. Early off - I felt like I lived in a funhouse.  Over time, a combination of this vestibular system and my damaged visual system made things look like they were "leaning". To this day, one eye sees things "correctly" and the other eye sees things as SLIGHTLY leaning. And it's not that the eye itself is seeing them that way.  The healing vestibular system is working WITH the eye to "tell" the brain that that object looks like it is "moving left-wards" or "leaning". But it isn't.  In waves, this can happen bad - and then be GONE - poof - in a window. This is just the vestibular system healing. It's gotten WAY better.

Temporal Lobe  These lobes are on the side of your brain on each side near your ear. It makes up the whole left and ride side of your brain.  This is where auditory information is processed, including hearnig itself, but also the "Meaning" of what we are hearing, as well as part of speech and language, emotion, and buncha other stuff.  In early recovery, someone was talking to me and I couldn't tell you what they said past the first sentence.  My auditory processing was ALL messed up.  I couldn't picture what a person was saying to me in real time - and by the time I caught up to them, I was lost and they were talking about something else! Also - When I was laying there in bed, I could "hear" things that weren't there in the noise of my box fan. I'd hear the fan blowing -but I also "heard" like sickening circus music. I believe this is because there is noise coming into my ear - but my brain cannot adequately "prune" what it is hearing at differnet frequecies because there is not enough GABA to inhibit it to create something meaninful.  There was all this "noise" and my brain was just firing off glutamate.  So instead of actually "processing" the noise - it was firing off ideas about what it was hearing - and they were ALL wrong.  I would be hearing what sounded like circus music - and at the same time, my poor brain was looking through my hippocampus to find all the memories I ever had of being at the circus - and then I'm reliving those memories- and at the same time, my amygdala is getting fired upon - so I'm in fear. So I'm a quivering mess of a person laying in the bed hearing and seeing things and remembering times in my childhood and scared to pieces.  Seriously? Yes - I felt crazy. But not in my MIND.  It was my BRAIN.  It's the BRAIN.  And it's normal. The structures in the brain are "obligated" to work this way.

That brings me to my next point... WHY do all of us in benzo recovery have generally the same symptoms? Well - it may make you feel calmer to realize that our brain structures are NOT broken. They are doing EXACTLY what they are supposed to do under the circumstances.  And all of our perceptions of what we are seeing, feeling, hearing- are normal because the parts of our brains that are firing off are doing so because a) They [...] DO work. B) They work just as they were intended to. c) They are actually healing as all this firing is going on. 

Why the depression and anxiety? It's so complicated, but this WHOLE system is interdependent. At that SAME time as ALL this stuff is going on, the entire body is [...] to heal in every place GABA and Glutamate naturally act (uh - and that would be - EVERYWHERE).
The intestines, stomach, eye balls, skin, toenails - seriously - where do we NOT have nerves? 
Anything we didn't have as a pre-existing condition is fair game for being affected by the recovery that takes place. 
This includes the body's own ability to make serotonin that is required to feel "balanced" and "happy". And you guessed it. This is not being made very efficiently in a building that is under major construction. So - you may get a day or so of feeling good - and then - boom - that's gone until you can make enough serotonin.
Oh - and by the way - serotonin HELPS TELL THE NERVES WHEN TO RELEASE GABA AND GLUTAMATE! Ha!
So on top of needing GABA to make serotonin, you need serotonin to regulate the release of GABA into the system! 
How much more interconnected can you get?  God - it's a wonder it knows how to heal at all!  But it does!  Amazing to me, really.

This is just some limited information to give an idea of what is going on in neurophysiology.  Obviously this is very cursory and not super detailed. But there is a bigger point here than "what parts of the brain are affected". 
The point REALLY is - IF  YOU KNOW that symptoms are tied to parts of a NORMAL brain under reconstruction, then you can begin to rest a little more easy in your mind that under the circumstances, the symptoms themselves are a GOOD sign. 
Without intrusive memories - as awful as they are - especially when mixed with fear - but without them, your memory itself would not heal.  It IS healing - and when you are having intrusives, try to think of it that way.  Tap your finger to your temple and say to yourself, "I know what this is. This is my hippocampus healing! Ha!" Because it IS.  And if it were NOT healing, you would not be having those symptoms.  ANY part of the brain or body that needs to heal is going to "experience" something in the form of symptoms - and you are going to notice that. But it is part of  process that is inevitably returning to the balance that it could not achieve while we were [...] putting those pills in our mouths.  (And if you're tapering, this is [...] happening - just likely with less trauma than with what happened to me when I cold-turkeyed.)

So - when you have symptoms - know that symptoms themselves are a way for you to know that healing is taking place.

And finally - realize that the DRUG is GONE.  This is withdrawal - yes - okay -we call it withdrawal -  but it's really "recovery".
The benzos are gone. The "evil drug" is no longer there.  The symptoms that are left are not the "enemy". That's our brains doing the EXACT right thing. What's happening to our brain at this point is not the "benzo beast" http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/Smileys/standard/smiley.gif It's OUR BRAIN recovering.
Not to degrade anyone who calls it the benzo beast http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/Smileys/standard/smiley.gif - I get that. But just so you know - you're not really fighting a beast.
You don't even need to fight it.  Just wait it out. All that reconstruction is happening on your building.
And soon - the frame will be back standing, [...] than before. The furniture will be inside. The elevators will go all the way up to the top again.  http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/Smileys/standard/laugh.gif And the people can come and go and work like a well-oiled machine. 
Don't feel you need to fight the recontruction. It's just healing. And all that is happening to us is a sign of that.

Hope this helps somebody a little - or maybe a family member. 

And if you ARE a family member, please realize that those of us in recovery are no more in control of how we feel or what we experience than people who have undergone brain trauma in a car accident. Please be patient with us, because our brains are healing and we are in the process of reconstruction - and our function is temporarily enabled, then disabled, then enabled, then disabled again.  And that is totally normal and expected.  We can no more help that than a person can "want" to wake up out of a coma. It happens when the brain is able - and not out of sheer will.  But it does happen. So please stand by us and say loving things and reassure us every day. Notice our improvements and tell us what they are.  Encourage us when we feel good.  And when we don't, just hold us and hug us and tell us it will be okay.  Anything you would say or do for a family member that had had a car accident and a brain injury - please do that for us.  And be patient... we are getting there.

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/Smileys/standard/smiley.gif[...]


ADDENDUM

 I got a great PM from a buddy asking "What about the physical symptoms of pain?" - and think it deserves some theoretical attention.

I want to take some time to add some theories about PAIN and physical symptoms such as burning, akathisia, and tingling, prickling, and things that happen during recovery of this nature.

I will also add this as an addendum to the original post on page 1.

First off, let it be said that I can only "theorize" as to this, - I [...] not a doctor.  But I DO think logical theories are helpful because they give us a story and mindful logic to cope with in the MEANTIME as we are going through this.

So these are multiple sources of information that I'm tying together - some are from nerve regeneration, and some are from what we know about "how the brain works".  And some or ALL of this is likely going on when it comes to pain and skin/muscle sensations:

First off - I think a good quote comes from a Plastic Surgery practice that has published things on "nerve regeneration after injury". 

The quote follows:

"The usual events associated with normal nerve regeneration can be painful. As the regenerating ends of the nerve, called sprouts, travel, they make contact with each other and with structural proteins. The neural impulses generated by this activity may be interpreted by your brain as pain. It should be expected that for the time period associated with nerve regeneration there may be pain sufficient to need therapy and/or pain medication. Just understanding that this is expected to occur, and is "good pain'; or pain for a good reason, is enough to help many people adjust to its presence.  This condition is not just one of pain, but is associated with over activity of the sympathetic nervous system, so that the area of pain is a different color, like pink or purple, and is usually a different temperature, like cooler, than the surrounding non-painful skin."  http://www.riversongplasticsurgery.com/pdfs/nerve_injury_nerve_reconstruction_recovery.pdf

Well- this article isn't talking about "benzo - related nerve damage. It's talking about nerve damage caused by physical trauma of crushing, cutting, or compressing nerves. But what can we glean from it nonetheless?

We can assume that if the sympathetic nervous system is involved in the presence of pain related to healing nerves - AND IT IS- that it is also NORMAL for us to have pain as we are undergoing healing.

When I was in earliest recovery, I would often get out of the shower and have pink spots all over my feet and my abdomen. At first they were bright pink for about 2 months - and then they faded out and I don't have them anymore.  I have no idea what they were - but they were NOT there 12 days prior to my rapid taper - and then they showed up.  The spots weren't symmetrical - they followed no pattern, but they were alway in the same place on my skin.  And only after getting out of the shower.  It is easy to see how the nervous system could be involved in skin redness, irritation, and weird feelings associated with recovery.

Likewise, throughout recovery, I've had and continue to have cooling, burning, prickling and occasional stabbing sensations. I've had it feel like my skin was "wet" when there was no water on it.  Again, though. This is all normal - and like the quote says above.."Just understanding that this is expected to occur, and is "good pain'; or pain for a good reason, is enough to help many people adjust to its presence."  It doesn't make the pain FEEL any better in the moment, but it does help us not to become anxious about it. It's normal.  And it's a sign of healing.

What about akathisia?
Well  - from the reading, the exact cause of akathisia is not 100% conclusive, but it seems to be related to dopaminergic and/or noradrenergic activity in the brain  (dopamine and norepinephrine or noradrenaline as it is also called). These are just neurotransmitters - and it doesn't look (to me) to be exactly conclusive WHY this happens - but akathisia can happen after the use of many psychoactive drugs- not just benzos - and likely because anything that alters brain chemistry can alter dopemine and norepinephrine. So - okay. That makes sense.  We all took "brain altering" drugs - and now some of us have akathisia.  Guess what?  It seems [...] normal!  It's not fun. But it's normal.  And it can come and go and then go away eventually.  For me, I didn't get akathisia at all until month 8. It was a surprise.  It was intense and awful. But it passed in a few weeks. Since then, I have had it off and on - but not to that degree.  And now - it's mostly just annoying.  Something as simple as a good hard cry in the bathtub can COMPLETELY remove it at times.  And other times, I just have to wait for a wave to pass. But all in all, from all this information - it's normal. And the fact that it's coming and going and I'm getting hit here and there - it's a sign that the wheels are turning up there in the noggin - and things are shifting and attempting to rebalance.  So if we can keep that quote in mind - it's normal - and while the sensation itself is very uncomfortable - if not painful - it can be regarded as a "good pain" if we are able to recognize that our feeling it means we have a brain and nerves that are regaining their abilities to function.

Likewise, as a scab heals over a wound, the new skin formin underneath can become "itchy". Why does this occur? Why does a scab itch?

"The itch of a healing wound is caused by the growth of new cells underneath the old scab. New skin cells would be growing underneath, and as they form a new layer of skin, then the scab becomes more tightly stretched over this zone of activity. This can make it feel itchy. The itch sensation for burn survivors may be a tingling feeling caused by nerves re-growing, or from dry skin caused by the lack of natural oil production since oil glands may have been damaged or destroyed by the burn. As the nerves grow and start to receive and send messages, they may create that itchy feeling. The skin in this area will be a lot less thick than everywhere else, so these new nerve cells will be under a lot more pressure. Itching is a sign of healing." (Mayo Clinic)

As we can surmise, the umpteen bajillion sensation we have going on are not 100% conclusive in their origins....HOWEVER...
There IS a trend.

From what it seems like from all the reading...
NERVE REGENERATION CAN CAUSE UNPLEASANT SENSATIONS. As counterintuitive as it is,  HEALING CAN FEEL LIKE HURT. http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/Smileys/standard/smiley.gif
But it's NOT further hurt or damage. It's the REVERSAL of damage. 

Um  - yeah - okay. Great - but what do I DO about it.

[...] much the things that I have discovered that help through this healing are to "CONFUSE" the nerves as much as possible, IF possible. 
What? Confuse the nerves?

You know how you get a cut or an insect bite and you immediately press on it to make it feel less painful? What you are doing when you press or squeeze the area is "desensitizing' the entire skin region of the cut by applying pressure to ALL the nerves in the area. That way, the ONE sensation of pain from the cut isn't the only thing your brain is feeling.  The pressure from pushing down on  ALL the nerves in the area helps to send multiple sensation to the brain to "counteract" the pain sensation.  And it works.
Similarly, other things can help "confuse" nerves:
-Heat
-Cold
-[...] Pressure
- Massage
-creams like "Icy Hot" with menthol

All of these things have helped me cope in recovery.

Let me take it one by one:

Heat: I took and [...] take hot baths almost every day. In the peak of akathisia, I lived in the tub. http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/Smileys/standard/smiley.gif  As hot as I could stand it really helped me. All the heat was "overregistering" in my brain and I was unable to feel the akathisia as much when in the tub. It was confusing the nerve signal and it was temporary relief.  I hated those days. But I got through them.  Likewise, a heating pad for pain was my friend a lot of the time. 

-Cold -  I used a cold washcloth on burning skin - and on my face and hands - and kept dipping it in ice water and applying it.  This is an easy one, but it helped. I had a wave with 3 days of "fireface" last month and all I could do was apply the washcloth, lay there and think about how "this is healing" and keep going. But the wave passed.

[...] Pressure  I use a 15 pound weighted blanket to sleep. I have for YEARS. I ordered it online. It has many pockets with little plastic balls equally distributed to create a very heavy blanket that creates "[...] pressure". This kind of pressure is calming for anyone's nervous system. Occupational Therapists use it for children with autism, but people with anxiety can benefit from sleeping with one. And in recovery, I was glad to have it.  I used it often together with a heating pad.  It took the edge off just long enough. 

Massage This one CAN be helpful - but sometimes not.  I used to ask my husband just to "press down" on my head or my legs.  Just press there. Don't rub.  My skin hurt too much to rub, but the [...] pressure from pressing was helpful. Other times, the actual massage was a help for sore muscles.  I was too agoraphobic to schedule a REAL massage. LOL. But just this help from my family was nice to have.

Creams You're going to laugh, but there was a day that I put Vick's VapoRub on my face because my face was so HOT!  I figured if this is safe for my baby's skin, it's probably okay to try it on my face.  It worked! Oh man - my face felt SO good all day.  I used that for a few days until the wave passed.  I have also tried "Icy Hot" on my back when it was sore.  Things like this work on the same principal to "confuse the nerves".  If your nerves are too busy feeling the heat/cool of menthol, they cannot simultaneously feel "pain". So for a short time, the pain is not "felt" even though the "soreness" is technically [...] there.

All of these are ways I have coped.  I'm sure there are others you guys have used!! http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/Smileys/standard/smiley.gif

The broad idea here is that
1) Healing is happening.
2) The sensations that feel like injury are NOT injury. They are the CORRECTION of nerve injury.  They just "fire off" as they heal.
3) We can use some things to cope.
4) It's going away in time.

I know this is not a "fix" to the feelings.  There is nothing anyone could say to me while I was IN pain that made the PAIN better.  All I could do was cope and cry and try to get through it.  But knowing it's normal and that I'm not getting worse; I'm [...] - is always something I benefit from knowing. 

I [...] get these symptoms - and I'll be SOOOOOO glad when they are gone.

Thanks to the Benzo Buddy that brought this up.  http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/Smileys/standard/wink.gif

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/Smileys/standard/smiley.gif[...]



« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 03:19:54 pm by [buddie] »

Thank you so much Alto. I have also looked at an interview with yourself on U tube which I found insightful. 😊

Started 10mg escitalopram March 2016 and stopped CT Feb 2017.

Started 10mg citalopram May 2019

Swapped with mirtazapine mid June 2019 used for a week and then switched to Escitalopram 5mg at the end of July 2019, increased gradually to 10mg in September, 15mg in October and 20mg in January 2020. Tapered down to 15mg in April. 10mg in June then a week tapering to 5mg and then stopped CT. 
Resumed escitalopram in November 2020 at 5mg, increased to 10mg in February 2021, tapered down to 5mg in May 2021 and tapered down to 2.5 in the space of a week in September 2021. Resumed escitalopram at the end of December 2022 at 5mg, increased it to 10mg in March 2023 then tapered down to 5mg in June and down to 2.5mg in July. Started escitalopram 5mg beginning of December 2023 then stopped after 4 days. Took amytryptamine for 2 days then restarted escitalopram at 5mg, after two weeks increased it to 7.5mg, kept it for 1 week then 10mg for 1 week but two many side effects so went back to 5mg. Beginning of January 2023 stopped escitalopram for 1 day then 2.5mg for the next day. Developed  discontinuation symptoms reinstated it at 2.5 for 1 week and 1.5 for the following week then stopped. I’m currently experiencing withdrawal symptoms.

 

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  • 10 months later...

This is one of my favorite posts I found here. It brings so much comfort to be able to read through and understand a bit more about what's happening in our brain, i've shared excerpts of it with some supportive family members. Always helpful to remind myself when i recognize I'm in a wave, this is my brain healing, this is what we want. 

20mg citalopram - 11/2010 ~ 2014 (prescribed for panic attacks)
20mg escitalopram (Can't remember why i changed meds) - 2014 - 3/2020 

10mg citalopram - 3/2020

5mg citalopram - 4/2020
Withdrawal from 4/2020-7/2020

Reinstated with 50 mg Sertraline - 7/2020 - 6/2023
25 mg Sertraline taper and micro dosing Psilocybin - 7/2023
12.5mg Sertraline taper every other day and micro dosing Psilocybin - 8/2023
0 mg Sertraline and micro dosing Psilocybin - 9/2023
Micro dosing ~125mg Psilocybin off and on July 2023-January 2024

Withdrawals began in early November 2023// Found SA in January 2024
Attempting Reinstatement: 1 mg Zoloft liquid solution 2/22/2024 - present

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  • 2 months later...
On 9/17/2023 at 8:51 PM, Rosetta said:

I wrote this to someone today:
 

I understand why it matters so much to you WHY what is happening is happening.  I was obsessed with how and why my waves happened, what had happened in my brain to create the torture, and trying to figure out a way to control it.  Whether it was simply an OCD type reaction to my predicament or my natural personality, I read as much as I could and thought about the issue non-stop.  My brain did not reason very well, did not retain information very well, and the recurrent anxiety attacks made it very hard to think.
 

My understanding is that sometimes there may be a change in the brain that does not cause too much turbulence on the surface — where the symptoms show.  Maybe you feel worse, but it’s manageable.  Then, the healing brain makes a change that is quite consequential or possibly, several changes intersect, and wham! Suddenly, you are feeling much, much worse.  That is what seemed to be happening to me.  Whether the change was more significant or the result of the change was more intense, there were some waves that were devastating.  Many, many people report this phenomenon.  Because this pattern is different than most other types of healing (and because mental symptoms are often significant components), we are very distressed by the fact that we are feeling worse.

 

Personally, I think it’s likely to be the case that several changes intersect or pile up to make a particularly bad wave.  The reason I think this is because when someone is tapering, and they reduce the drug dose too soon after a previous reduction, they may feel stronger symptoms that would not have occurred if they had waited longer between reductions.  The only control the person has over how fast the brain is making changes is the timing of the dose reductions and the amount of the reductions.  


As cold turkeys 🦃, we have no control.  As adverse reaction people, we have no control.  The brain is doing its thing, and we are along for the ride.  Changes happen when the brain makes them.  They pile up or happen too fast, and it’s truly awful😞.   There are probably not too many natural substances that could put us in this type of danger.  Our bodies were never designed/never evolved to handle this situation.  They are carrying out a systematic repair procedure that is inadequate to provide a smooth or less rocky transition to normal brain function.  
 

The best analogy to what is happening to us is the healing of traumatic brain injury.  If you read the possible consequences of TBI, you will see a lot of similarities.  Of course, for us, the good news is that no structures have been destroyed permanently, but the trajectory of healing is very similar and just as frustrating and scary.  The neuroplasticity is the saving grace for both conditions. ductions.  The only control the person has over how fast the brain is making changes is the timing of the dose reductions and the amount of the reductions.

 

1996-2018 - misc. polypharmacy, incl. SSRIs, SNRIs, neuroleptics, lithium, benzos, stimulants, antihistamines, etc. (approx. 30+ drugs)

2012-2018 - 10mg lexapro/escitalopram (20mg?)    Jan. 2018 - 10mg -> 5mg, then from 5mg -> 2.5mg, then 0mg  -->  July 2018 - 0mg

2017(?)-2020 - vyvanse/lisdexamfetamine 60-70mg    2020-2021 - 70mg down to 0mg  -->  July 2021 - 0mg

March-April 2021 - vortioxetine 5-10mg (approx. 7 weeks total; CT)  -->  April 28th, 2021 - 0mg

August 2021 - 2mg melatonin   August 1, 2022 - 1mg melatonin   March 31, 2023 - 0mg melatonin

2024 supplements update: electrolyte blend in water sipped throughout the day; 1 tsp cod liver oil blend (incl. vit. A+D+E) w/ breakfast; calcium; vitamin C+zinc

 

Courage is fear that has said its prayers.  - Karle Wilson Baker

love and justice are not two. without inner change, there can be no outer change; without collective change, no change matters.  - Rev. angel Kyodo williams

Holding multiple truths. Knowing that everyone has their own accurate view of the way things are.  - text on homemade banner at Afiya house

 

I am not a medical professional; this is not medical advice. 

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