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Mindingme1: Benzo taper hit wall, kindled?


Mindingme1

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Kindled

Benzo taper

Trying to taper last .099 clonazepam. Usage, 2007-2013 2-3 mg clonazepam. Suffered terribly during this time and was medically mismanaged. Began first taper from 2mg in Oct, 2013 and was tapered to quickly and failed a cross over to Valium. Sat on 30 mg Valium for 3 months (was advised to see if Valium would "build up" in my system) until side effects were intolerable (suicidal), then switched back to 2 mg. clonazepam in March, 2014. I've since learned by genetic testing I do not metabolize Valium.

 

Tapered 10% every 2 weeks and began experiencing windows in March, 2015; then hit wall in May, 2015 at .40. Since then, been struggling. Many holds and only cut when able. Tried switching to daily taper and it made things worse. Been holding at .099 since March, 2016.

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I'm new to this forum and realize I just posted my signature in my introductory post. My cognition is greatly suffering due to benzo withdrawal.

 

I'm struggling trying to taper the last .099 of Klonipin. As you can see by my signature, I've had a tough taper and it began with no direction. I did experience windows over a year ago, but they closed. I will hold at .099 until I feel able to reduce a small amount. Every tiny cut feels like a cold turkey and reminds me how I felt during the botched crossover.

 

I've tried small dosage adjustments in order to stabilize some which helps a little. I'm wondering if others were able to taper successfully after a botched cross over because right now I feel hopeless about it.

Trying to taper last .099 clonazepam. Usage, 2007-2013 2-3 mg clonazepam. Suffered terribly during this time and was medically mismanaged. Began first taper from 2mg in Oct, 2013 and was tapered to quickly and failed a cross over to Valium. Sat on 30 mg Valium for 3 months (was advised to see if Valium would "build up" in my system) until side effects were intolerable (suicidal), then switched back to 2 mg. clonazepam in March, 2014. I've since learned by genetic testing I do not metabolize Valium.

 

Tapered 10% every 2 weeks and began experiencing windows in March, 2015; then hit wall in May, 2015 at .40. Since then, been struggling. Many holds and only cut when able. Tried switching to daily taper and it made things worse. Been holding at .099 since March, 2016.

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I am really puzzled by this kindling notion.  I have read and read about it, and it just seems counter-intuitive to me.  It seems like the longer one's brain has to heal, the easier it should be to start tapering again.  I am interested in others' perspectives here...kindling sure sounds like holding until one feels stable enough to taper again to me.

 

Grace

  • amitriptyline from 1980-2002,
  • intermittent  use of benzos over 2 decades prior to 2002
  • 2002-2010 Klonopin 1-2 mg., ambien 10--20, mg, remeron 4 mg. and  trileptal 300 mg
  • 2011 Stopped ambien and crossed over to valium 17.5 mg. (updosing 2.5 mg. to cover ambien C/T )
  • tapered valium w/ long holds to 12.74 mg. from a high of approximately 20-30 mg/day
  • 2015-2023 tapered trileptal to 98 mg.  had to completely stop tapering due to multiple chronic, serious health issues
  • currently 2024 still on 98 mg. trileptal and 4 mg. remeron
  •   Currently on benzo hold as I have to cross-over from brand-name valium to generic diazepam.   The diazepam is way weaker and brought on severe acute w/d
  • Current dose of diazepam is 7.9 and valium is 6.6.  I had to up-dose the total valium/diazepam from 12.74 to 14.5 where I have stayed since June 2023.  I am crossing over to generic at a somewhat tolerable rate of .3mg/month after about 2 months of trial/error w/ updosing.  I am not currently tapering; will continue to cross over. 

 

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I've been puzzled by the kindling notion, too. Frankly, I wasn't too concerned about it recently. I was under the impression kindling occurs when one goes off and on benzos and heals after each time making each discontinuation more challenging, if that makes sense. I never healed; I've been just trying for 2.6 years. Holding makes sense to me. I can't imagine tapering through this. I don't think it is wise to cut through intolerable symptoms.

Trying to taper last .099 clonazepam. Usage, 2007-2013 2-3 mg clonazepam. Suffered terribly during this time and was medically mismanaged. Began first taper from 2mg in Oct, 2013 and was tapered to quickly and failed a cross over to Valium. Sat on 30 mg Valium for 3 months (was advised to see if Valium would "build up" in my system) until side effects were intolerable (suicidal), then switched back to 2 mg. clonazepam in March, 2014. I've since learned by genetic testing I do not metabolize Valium.

 

Tapered 10% every 2 weeks and began experiencing windows in March, 2015; then hit wall in May, 2015 at .40. Since then, been struggling. Many holds and only cut when able. Tried switching to daily taper and it made things worse. Been holding at .099 since March, 2016.

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Well, I've been trying for 7 years, but on 2 other drugs as well, so it makes tapering more difficult and complicated.

 

Holding until you feel stable enough to continue just makes sense. Otherwise, there is an "accumulation effect" of cuts, that I believe, causes the "hitting the wall" problem.

 

If kindling is really what is going on with me, well then, I guess I may as well stop trying. I won't though. I just make a new plan every time I seem to need to change something to go on. I am currently in that situation right now, not knowing in which direction to go.

 

If there is real "science" behind kindling, I haven't found enough to convince me.

 

Grace

  • amitriptyline from 1980-2002,
  • intermittent  use of benzos over 2 decades prior to 2002
  • 2002-2010 Klonopin 1-2 mg., ambien 10--20, mg, remeron 4 mg. and  trileptal 300 mg
  • 2011 Stopped ambien and crossed over to valium 17.5 mg. (updosing 2.5 mg. to cover ambien C/T )
  • tapered valium w/ long holds to 12.74 mg. from a high of approximately 20-30 mg/day
  • 2015-2023 tapered trileptal to 98 mg.  had to completely stop tapering due to multiple chronic, serious health issues
  • currently 2024 still on 98 mg. trileptal and 4 mg. remeron
  •   Currently on benzo hold as I have to cross-over from brand-name valium to generic diazepam.   The diazepam is way weaker and brought on severe acute w/d
  • Current dose of diazepam is 7.9 and valium is 6.6.  I had to up-dose the total valium/diazepam from 12.74 to 14.5 where I have stayed since June 2023.  I am crossing over to generic at a somewhat tolerable rate of .3mg/month after about 2 months of trial/error w/ updosing.  I am not currently tapering; will continue to cross over. 

 

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Yep, every tiny cut feels like a cold turkey and I have almost 13 mg. in me!

 

Grace

  • amitriptyline from 1980-2002,
  • intermittent  use of benzos over 2 decades prior to 2002
  • 2002-2010 Klonopin 1-2 mg., ambien 10--20, mg, remeron 4 mg. and  trileptal 300 mg
  • 2011 Stopped ambien and crossed over to valium 17.5 mg. (updosing 2.5 mg. to cover ambien C/T )
  • tapered valium w/ long holds to 12.74 mg. from a high of approximately 20-30 mg/day
  • 2015-2023 tapered trileptal to 98 mg.  had to completely stop tapering due to multiple chronic, serious health issues
  • currently 2024 still on 98 mg. trileptal and 4 mg. remeron
  •   Currently on benzo hold as I have to cross-over from brand-name valium to generic diazepam.   The diazepam is way weaker and brought on severe acute w/d
  • Current dose of diazepam is 7.9 and valium is 6.6.  I had to up-dose the total valium/diazepam from 12.74 to 14.5 where I have stayed since June 2023.  I am crossing over to generic at a somewhat tolerable rate of .3mg/month after about 2 months of trial/error w/ updosing.  I am not currently tapering; will continue to cross over. 

 

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  • Moderator Emeritus

Hello Mindingme,

 

It sounds like you've done a really good job of realising how important it is to hold when you need to.  I am in doing something similar in my own taper (of efexor), waiting to find more stable ground before reducing again.

 

Your fortnightly 10% cuts were faster than our recommendation of 10% monthly reductions.  What is the longest hold you have done over the last year? 

 

Are you taking any supplements?  Many people find Fish oil and Magnesium useful during withdrawal.  Others, especially B vitamins, can be too activating.  Too much exercise can also ramp up symptoms, along with caffeine and alcohol. 

 

It's good to have you here.  I hope you find some info and support to help you through this last phase of your taper.

Welcome to SA,

Karen

2010  Fluoxetine 20mg.  2011  Escitalopram 20mg.  2013 Tapered badly and destabilised CNS.  Effexor 150mg. 

2015 Begin using info at SurvivingAntidepressants.  Cut 10% - bad w/d 2 months, held 1 month. 

Micro-tapering: four weekly 0.4% cuts, hold 4 weeks (struggling with symptoms).

8 month hold.

2017 Micro-tapering: four weekly 1% cuts, hold 4 weeks (symptoms almost non-existent).

2020 Still micro-tapering. Just over 2/3 of the way off effexor. Minimal symptoms, - and sleeping well.
Supplements: Fish oil, vitamin C, iron, oat-straw tea, nettle tea.

2023 Now on 7 micro-beads of Effexor. Minimal symptoms but much more time needed between drops.

 'The possibility of renewal exists so long as life exists.'  Dr Gabor Mate.

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Hi Karen and SavingGrace,

 

Thank you for the wonderful welcome and helpful replies.

 

Karen, good question regarding holds. I held for about 2.5 months last summer; several weeks during the holidays, and most recently I've been holding since the end of March. I really do believe the Ashton rate is too fast for many and the cuts certainly caught up with me last spring. I don't fear holding, I really don't want to be a mess when I jump. I really hope that holding will help prevent the severe post withdrawal symptoms.

 

I do take fish oil supplements and cal/magnesium, along with a daily vitamin.

 

Hope that helps answer your questions. I very much appreciate your help.

Trying to taper last .099 clonazepam. Usage, 2007-2013 2-3 mg clonazepam. Suffered terribly during this time and was medically mismanaged. Began first taper from 2mg in Oct, 2013 and was tapered to quickly and failed a cross over to Valium. Sat on 30 mg Valium for 3 months (was advised to see if Valium would "build up" in my system) until side effects were intolerable (suicidal), then switched back to 2 mg. clonazepam in March, 2014. I've since learned by genetic testing I do not metabolize Valium.

 

Tapered 10% every 2 weeks and began experiencing windows in March, 2015; then hit wall in May, 2015 at .40. Since then, been struggling. Many holds and only cut when able. Tried switching to daily taper and it made things worse. Been holding at .099 since March, 2016.

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  • Moderator Emeritus

Then I think you are on track to keep holding for the time being.  I'm currently at four months in my hold, with a vague notion of going to about 6 months to see what level of stabilisation I can achieve.  I'm making myself do it cause I want to know down the track that at least I've given a long hold a good chance. 

 

For info on taking calcium and magnesium together, see this thread:  http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1300-magnesium-natures-calcium-channel-blocker/#entry13712, particularly this post by Alto:  http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/35-calcium/?p=14425

2010  Fluoxetine 20mg.  2011  Escitalopram 20mg.  2013 Tapered badly and destabilised CNS.  Effexor 150mg. 

2015 Begin using info at SurvivingAntidepressants.  Cut 10% - bad w/d 2 months, held 1 month. 

Micro-tapering: four weekly 0.4% cuts, hold 4 weeks (struggling with symptoms).

8 month hold.

2017 Micro-tapering: four weekly 1% cuts, hold 4 weeks (symptoms almost non-existent).

2020 Still micro-tapering. Just over 2/3 of the way off effexor. Minimal symptoms, - and sleeping well.
Supplements: Fish oil, vitamin C, iron, oat-straw tea, nettle tea.

2023 Now on 7 micro-beads of Effexor. Minimal symptoms but much more time needed between drops.

 'The possibility of renewal exists so long as life exists.'  Dr Gabor Mate.

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Thank you Karen. I'll look at Alto's thread regarding cal/mag. Wishing you well with the long hold.

Trying to taper last .099 clonazepam. Usage, 2007-2013 2-3 mg clonazepam. Suffered terribly during this time and was medically mismanaged. Began first taper from 2mg in Oct, 2013 and was tapered to quickly and failed a cross over to Valium. Sat on 30 mg Valium for 3 months (was advised to see if Valium would "build up" in my system) until side effects were intolerable (suicidal), then switched back to 2 mg. clonazepam in March, 2014. I've since learned by genetic testing I do not metabolize Valium.

 

Tapered 10% every 2 weeks and began experiencing windows in March, 2015; then hit wall in May, 2015 at .40. Since then, been struggling. Many holds and only cut when able. Tried switching to daily taper and it made things worse. Been holding at .099 since March, 2016.

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