Syntaxerror: choosing the life you live

[Syntaxerror]

Hello all,

 

I've been hesitating a lot before posting this message

 

First, sorry about my english, I'm not a native speaker, but I'll try as hard as I can to make myself readable.

 

My country is the first of all to prescribe and sell anti-depressants, you name it, it's France.

 

For the same reason, disinformation is all over the place. I can't get a doctor to tell me: you're feeling like **** because you're trying to withdraw from paxil, and you've been taking it for 3 years now.

 

That's why I'm sor relieved to finally see a site describing all I'm going trough : despair,  suicidal thoughts and so on. 

 

Well, relieved probably isnt the word but, anyway, Im greatfull for the existence of this community.

 

I'll post more about my story if my english doesn't bother you, and if you wanna help me, cause as many of you, Im going through hell these days, and I try really hard not to lose hope.

 

Cheers

[Altostrata]

Welcome, Syntaxerror.

 

You're very humble about your English, to have chosen such a clever screen name.

 

Of course we want to hear from you. Please tell us more.

 

To help us out, follow these instructions Please put your drug and withdrawal history in your signature

[Carmie]

6 hours ago, Syntaxerror said:

Hello all,

 

I've been hesitating a lot before posting this message

 

First, sorry about my english, I'm not a native speaker, but I'll try as hard as I can to make myself readable.

 

My country is the first of all to prescribe and sell anti-depressants, you name it, it's France.

 

For the same reason, disinformation is all over the place. I can't get a doctor to tell me: you're feeling like **** because you're trying to withdraw from paxil, and you've been taking it for 3 years now.

 

That's why I'm sor relieved to finally see a site describing all I'm going trough : despair,  suicidal thoughts and so on. 

 

Well, relieved probably isnt the word but, anyway, Im greatfull for the existence of this community.

 

I'll post more about my story if my english doesn't bother you, and if you wanna help me, cause as many of you, Im going through hell these days, and I try really hard not to lose hope.

 

Cheers

 

Hi Syntaxerror, 

 

Yes, this is a fabulous forum. There is so much conflicting information on the internet and most doctors don’t have a clue about how to taper safely. The information on this site is the best information I’ve read anywhere. 

 

It’s all about tapering really slowly and then holding the tapers for at least a month, maybe longer. You will definitely see lots of people on this site with the same symptoms as yourself.  What I’ve learnt too is that every time I get a new symptom it’s more likely to be withdrawals than anything else. In the past, I used to think I had another health problem but most of the time it was just withdrawals. 

 

You can get all all sorts of symptoms you would think aren’t related to withdrawals. I’ve had jaw pain, toothaches, earaches, a burning mouth for months etc etc.

 

It was good to learn about the windows and waves pattern too. One minute you can be feeling not so bad and the next minute you have severe symptoms again. This goes back and forth all the time. It’s your brain trying to heal. 

 

Your English is fine, keep posting. 

 

Sending hugs🤗

 

 

[Syntaxerror]

Thanks a lot for these replies, and for the hugs. They are more than welcome.

 

I edited my signature. 

 

According to my therapist, I was in depression at age 25 after a chaotic year : my mom had leg cancer (she's fine now and seems in remission), I had a break up and screwed up a year in college.

I had been taking (dumbly) a drug called MDMA (ecstasy) during all my 24,  to forget my troubles 3 times a month.

 

Im pretty sure now that the lasting side effects of this drug (wich mainly targets serotonin, and seems kinda close to AD in its mechanism) had created a mindset wich would have disapeared, had I gave it a few months of recovery. Obviously, I certainly shouldnt have taken a drug targeting the very same receptor.

 

So I was put on escitalopram (LEXAPRO) 15 mg since then. I stopped LEXAPRO early 2018. I tappered the drug very quickly (too quick). I think I havent been the same since.

I asked my doctor to be put on a weaker medication, in order to eventually stop. So he put me on PAXIL (30 mg) five months ago. Wich, as I've learned recently, is even stronger and harder to stop than lexapro...

 

It's been 7 weeks now that I cross tapered PAXIL and PROZAC, and now ten days that I stopped PAXIL totally. Im currently under 40 mg of PROZAC.

 

 

My question is : 

 

Will my withdrawal (wich I very much feel) last very long, knowing I took PAXIL for only a few months ? I read the thread about that "how long will it last" question, but sorry, I need to ask it anyway.

My french psyc told me it wouldnt last more than a week, but again, I'm beginning to think they don't know much ...

 

 

P.S. : I see a lot of horror stories over here. Our psychiatrist in France are crazy enough, but how can you give an antidepressant to a teenager ? This is madness to me.

 

Again, sorry for my english and thanks to the fews who accept to read me  

 

 

 

 

[Altostrata]

Hello, again, Syntaxerror.

 

How do you feel now? What is your daily symptom pattern?  How did you switch to Prozac?

[Syntaxerror]

Hello,

 

I switched to prozac by cross-tapering during 5 weeks.

I went from 30 mg PAXIL to 20 mg PROZAC/20 mg PAXIL for two weeks. Then 30 mg PROZAC/10 mg PAXIL for three weeks. And now 40 mg prozac/0 PAXIL since ten days.

 

Im feeling very weird.

Im pretty well early morning, but around 11 a.m. I get that strange feeling of having my head crushed. My thoughts go dark about anything and for no reason.

I also got nausea (some days) and a very unpleasant feeling to my belly (as if it was carrying a burden, I guess due to anxiety). These feelings remain all day long.

I went to consider 10 - 11 a.m was the time when I took my 30 mg of PAXIL. 

 

Some days, it seems to get better, and the day after Im totally back to it. That's the odd part.

 

 

Thank your again for your help.

[Altostrata]

That is a substantial amount of Prozac. Do you take it at about 10 a.m.?

 

My guess is you're taking too much Prozac. If I were you, I'd reduce to 30mg Prozac, see what that's like for a week. Let us know how you're doing.

 

It can take quite a while for the nervous system to settle down from the shock of withdrawal, perhaps many months. See

 

The Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization 

[Syntaxerror]

Thanks for you reply,

 

I take Prozac around 2 P.M., wich I assume is a bit late.

 

I tried 30 mg Prozac today.

Knowing its very long half-life, how long should I wait till I notice a change ?

 

Also, my condition is somewhat worsening... 

As The Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization explains, assuming that Im going through Paxil withdrawal, week 2 might be worse than week 3 ? Am I correct ?

 

Just so I know Im not getting crazy. 

[Altostrata]

How is your condition worsening? Since early June, it appears you've been taking varying amounts of SSRIs (Paxil and Prozac).

 

What is your daily symptom pattern? Please keep daily notes on paper about your symptoms, when you take your drugs, and their dosages. Use a simple list format with time of day on the left and notation (symptom, drug and dosage) on the right.

[Syntaxerror]

Hello again.

 

I haven't been posting for a while as I was strugling with alcohol addiction. It's been more then a month I stopped drinking, and I'm feeling fine about it.

I wasnt drinking "that much" and I never dit so before nightfall, but I was doing it pretty much everyday. So I couldnt tell which symptom was from the antidepressant, and wich was from alcohol.

 

1/ About this, there's one thing I'd like to discuss. I had a problem with alcohol (partying way too much, wich I guess now was just an excuse to have a drink), but I never felt craving like I did under SSRIs.

Is there any link or study between SSRI and craving/alcohol abuse ?

 

2/ You told me 40 mg is a "substantial amount" of prozac. However I took 15 to 20 mg of lexapro two years before that. Are 40 mg more ? Less ?

 

Anyway I'm going to slowly reduce prozac now. 

One thing I noticed : alcohol made me depressed and fatigued all along. But SSRIs seriously damaged any lust for life.

 

I want that back.

 

 

 

 

[ChessieCat]

9 minutes ago, Syntaxerror said:

Is there any link or study between SSRI and craving/alcohol abuse ?

 

Other members have reported cravings. 

 

A google search brought up these:

 

https://rxisk.org/driven-to-drink-antidepressants-and-cravings-for-alcohol

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23796469

 

14 minutes ago, Syntaxerror said:

You told me 40 mg is a "substantial amount" of prozac. However I took 15 to 20 mg of lexapro two years before that. Are 40 mg more ? Less ?

 

Some drugs are stronger than others.  And different drugs have different effects.

[Syntaxerror]

Hello Chessie,

 

I sure did a lot of a google search (otherwise I wouldnt be asking).

And I precisely found what you're showing me (and a little more, but I'd say a google search can't prove you right, as a question will be always be biased).

I should rephrase my first question : I 'd love to know if SSRI induced craving is here a common topic, or even a topic.

 

About prozac, it doesnt really give me any answer, obviously ^^ But perhaps there is no answer.

[Gridley]

1 hour ago, ChessieCat said:

  2 hours ago, Syntaxerror said:

You told me 40 mg is a "substantial amount" of prozac. However I took 15 to 20 mg of lexapro two years before that. Are 40 mg more ? Less ?

According to this link, 40mg Prozac is equivalent to 18mg Lexapro.  However, as ChessieCat said, different drugs have different effects.

Hayasaka, 2015 Dose equivalents of antidepressants: Evidence ...

[Syntaxerror]

It's been a while and I forgot to thanks Gridley for his reply : when I realized 40 mg of Prozac were about the same as taking a full dose of Lexapro, I began to really consider tapering.

 

I just wanna ask one thing, as I tappered to 30 mg and actually (after a month) felt better :

 

1) Can SSRI's actually make you feel worse in the long run ?

2) Would I feel its effects right now (worsening or helping my condition) if I tooke, let's say... only 20 mg of Prozac once, considering Prozac's long half life ?

[Gridley]

26 minutes ago, Syntaxerror said:

 

1) Can SSRI's actually make you feel worse in the long run ?

2) Would I feel its effects right now (worsening or helping my condition) if I tooke, let's say... only 20 mg of Prozac once, considering Prozac's long half life ?

 

1.  Yes, they can make you feel worse in the long run.  There are few studies on the long-term effects of these drugs (none were done in the approval process), but such powerful drugs are bound to have negative effects not only on the brain but on other systems of the body, all of which are under the control of a central nervous system compromised by long-term drug use.  

 

Also, after long use, psychiatric drugs can "poop-out" on you -- they cease to work.  If you up the dose, that will work for only a little while before you run into poop-out again.  The only thing to do at that point is taper off the drug, but tapering while in poop-out (the technical term is tachyphylaxis) is significantly more difficult than otherwise.

 

2. You might not feel the effect immediately due to Prozac's long half-life.  But dropping down from 30mg to 20mg once is definitely not recommended. All the long half-life will do is delay the time before bad effects from inconsistent dosing hit you.  Varying your dose is like playing ping-pong with your brain.  Your central nervous system craves stability, and inconsistent dosing is very destabilizing.

The rule of 3KIS: Keep it simple. Keep it slow. Keep it stable.

[Syntaxerror]

Thanks Gridley for that (once again) precise and interesting insight,

 

As I reduced Prozac a little from 30 mg, I experienced some emotional blunting (I didn't know emotions could be even more blunt)

 

This is quite paradoxical, as my emotions pretty much went away by taking SSRI's at first. Shouldn't they come back (even in a terrific way) when reducing them ?

 

What can it be ? Is it common ? And is there a pharmalogical reason for it (I read here and there that SSRI's tend to reduce you dopamine level, causing emotional blunting) ?

 

 

One thing I should add to my first post : I used to be a writter in my home country (I wasnt writing in english, obviously ^^).

My emotions are essential to my work, wich is why I came here in the first place : I can't write anything anymore since I took SSRI's, and that's four full years.

I feel like a monkey in a cage. 

[Gridley]

39 minutes ago, Syntaxerror said:

As I reduced Prozac a little from 30 mg, I experienced some emotional blunting (I didn't know emotions could be even more blunt)

 

 

I have had the same experience.  Blunted as my emotions were before I started tapering, they are much more blunted now that I'm tapering.  I recall some members here reporting that as they tapered they began to have flashes of feeling return, so yes that's something that may well happen to you as you taper.  I get these flashes from time to time, seeing a thing of beauty or a feeling a muted surge of affection.  I'm hoping as I reduce my drug burden (I'm on two other drugs beside Lexapro) feelings and perhaps even a bit of joie de vivre will return.

 

I'm a writer too.  I still had enough contact with my feelings while I was on the drugs full-strength to write, but in withdrawal I really have very little creative urge.  But, again, from time to time I'll feel a little spark, so it does get better, but oh so slowly.

 

Emotional blunting is near-universal with SSRI's.  That how they do their job.  

 

 

[Syntaxerror]

On 7/29/2019 at 10:31 PM, Gridley said:

I'm a writer too.  I still had enough contact with my feelings while I was on the drugs full-strength to write, but in withdrawal I really have very little creative urge.  But, again, from time to time I'll feel a little spark, so it does get better, but oh so slowly.

 

Well, I've been questioning the opposition between SSRI's and will, as I've found strenght while tapering them about many other issues (Took me 3 months to go from 40 to 20, and I know this is a bit too quick).

Quote

 

 

 

[Syntaxerror]

However, and it feels weird to me, but tapering Prozac from 40 to 20 didn't help my libido at all.

In fact, I think it made it even worse. I mean, SSRI's have worsened my libido from the very start, so I didn't expect that lowering them wouldn't give me my libido back.

 

Can this be an effect of withdrawal ?

Is that common ?

[Gridley]

34 minutes ago, Syntaxerror said:

Can this be an effect of withdrawal ?

 

Yes, loss of libido is a common withdrawal symptom.

[Syntaxerror]

Hello everyone,

 

It's been a while since my last post. I'm still taking 20 mg of Prozac (tapered from 40 in 4 months or so).

 

My libido didn't ever came back, to say the least. In fact, it seems to improve when I take a few more mg of Prozac (25 instead of 20, for example).

I'm stunned of how long it takes, as I'm on 20 mg since late august.

 

Many others aspects of my life did get better thou : I found back some empathy, I started to be more active and reconnected with my friends (SSRI's truly didn't make me care anymore).

 

To say it all, I'm wondering : is it time to taper again ? Did I went too fast ? Do SSRI's actually do any good for me or is it that my brain did get used to them ?

 

I'm always affraid to forget why I'm doing this, and I guess it would help to know why some of you did taper or stop these drugs. And if they found back a part of their former self in the process.

 

 

[Syntaxerror]

Hello everyone,

 

It's been a while since my last post. I'm still taking 20 mg of Prozac (tapered from 40 in 4 months or so).

 

My libido didn't ever came back, to say the least. In fact, it seems to improve when I take a few more mg of Prozac (25 instead of 20, for example).

I'm stunned of how long it takes, as I'm on 20 mg since late august.

 

Many others aspects of my life did get better thou : I found back some empathy, I started to be more active and reconnected with my friends (SSRI's truly didn't make me care anymore).

 

To say it all, I'm wondering : is it time to taper again ? Did I went too fast ? Do SSRI's actually do any good for me or is it that my brain did get used to them ?

 

I'm always affraid to forget why I'm doing this, and I guess it would help to know why some of you did taper or stop these drugs. And if they found back a part of their former self in the process.

 

 

[Gridley]

32 minutes ago, Syntaxerror said:

To say it all, I'm wondering : is it time to taper again ? Did I went too fast ? Do SSRI's actually do any good for me or is it that my brain did get used to them ?

 

You went a bit too fast.  We recommend tapering no faster than 10% of current dose every four weeks.  Going from 40 to 20 should've taken 6 months.

 

Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

 

How are you feeling?  Do you have withdrawal symptoms?  That information will help us advise you as to when you're ready to taper.

 

What is withdrawal syndrome.

 

Glenmullen’s withdrawal symptom list. 

 

32 minutes ago, Syntaxerror said:

Do SSRI's actually do any good for me or is it that my brain did get used to them ?

 

That's a subject of great debate.  Some tests have shown that SSRI's don't do much better, if any better, than the placebo effect in terms of benefit.  You definitely have gotten used to them and your brain needs them now to avoid withdrawal symptoms.  That's the purpose of the slow 10% taper--to wean your brain from needing them.

 

32 minutes ago, Syntaxerror said:

why I'm doing this

 

These drugs were not intended or tested for long-term use.  I wanted to be drug-free and feel things again.  I have noticed as I get to the low doses of Lexapro that my sense of humor is returning.

Edited December 15, 2019 by Gridley

[Syntaxerror]

Thanks Gridley, you found the good words. I needed this.

 

On 12/15/2019 at 9:30 PM, Gridley said:

These drugs were not intended or tested for long-term use.  I wanted to be drug-free and feel things again.  I have noticed as I get to the low doses of Lexapro that my sense of humor is returning.

 

Feeling things again has become some kind of a dream. And I do miss my sense of humor, I haven't had a good laugh basically since I'm on SSRI's, and it's been about 5 years now. 

 

It's really hard to say what's coming from withdrawal and what is not, as I have been on theses things for years. Plus, as you know, Prozac has a long half-life. So I won't feel the withdrawal before 2 or 3 days after any reduction.

Sometimes I regret that switch from lexapro to Prozac, as with lexapro I could know for sure (and almost right away) it was my taper that made me feel this way.

 

Basically, my daily symptoms are :

- mild rebound of depression

- total loss of libido

- anxiety

- fatigue

 

These symptoms improve any time I take a higher dose (25 to 30 mg instead of 20).

Thou taking a higher dose also provokes lack of interest and emotional blunting, wich is the reason why I tried stopping these drugs in the first place.

 

Should I go back to... let's say 25 mg ? Could some suplements help me ?

 

Again, sorry for my french ^^

 

Edit : to say it all, my taper also made me find more interest in my life, my friends, my relationship. But it seems so slow and so hard.

 

 

 

[Gridley]

1 hour ago, Syntaxerror said:

Basically, my daily symptoms are :

- mild rebound of depression

- total loss of libido

- anxiety

- fatigue

 

These symptoms improve any time I take a higher dose (25 to 30 mg instead of 20).

Thou taking a higher dose also provokes lack of interest and emotional blunting, wich is the reason why I tried stopping these drugs in the first place.

 

Should I go back to... let's say 25 mg ? Could some suplements help me ?

 

 

Those are normal and typical withdrawal symptoms.

 

Regarding taking a higher dose sometimes (you mentioned going up sometime to 25 to 30mg instead of 20mg) , it is better to stay on the same 20mg dose all the time.  You central nervous system does better on a stable consistent dose.  The exceptions to this are (1) when you taper lower and (2) if you you need a one-time very small updose which would become your new regular dose.  If you are doing more or less ok (as you seem to be from what you wrote), I would stay where you are at 20 and wouldn't updose to 25mg.  The only time you should updose is when you are having some real withdrawal problems.

 

We don't recommend a lot of supplements on SA, as many members report being sensitive to them due to our over-reactive nervous systems, but two supplements that we do recommend are magnesium and omega 3 (fish oil). Many people find these to be calming to the nervous system. 

 

Magnesium, nature's calcium channel blocker  (magnesium glycinate is good for anxiety)

 

Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil) (also calming)

 

Add in one at a time and at a low dose in case you do experience problems.

 

[Syntaxerror]

Thanks a lot for you reply, 

 

I'll stay at 20 mg then, and wait for my brain to get used to it. My withdrawal symptoms aren't as bad as they were, indeed.

I'm concerned by their duration though, but I guess it's a really slow process...

 

I'll give a try to magnesium ! However, vitamin b6 is frequently (pratically always) added to magnesium in France. 

Do you know wether B6 or B complex interact in any way with serotoninergic withdrawal ? Should I look for a pure magnesium solution ?

[Gridley]

43 minutes ago, Syntaxerror said:

Do you know wether B6 or B complex interact in any way with serotoninergic withdrawal ? Should I look for a pure magnesium solution ?

 

Many people in withdrawal find B vitamins and B complex too activating (stimulating).

 

Hypersensitive to B Vitamin or B-Complex  

 

It would be better if you can find pure magnesium.  Otherwise, you're defeating the purpose of the magnesium (which is to help calm you) by taking it with something that's going to overstimulate you.

 

 

[Syntaxerror]

Thanks for you reply,

 

I found pure magnesium, and it does help a bit.

 

What about cafein ? I used to drink a lot of coffee while working. Now, it seems like cafein gets me way too anxious. 

 

Could this be related to my taper ?

[Erell]

Hi, 

 

Cafein can trigger anxierty, so if i were you I would try to stop it. You may need to tapper it. How many do you drink every day?

 

 

[Syntaxerror]

Thanks, I'll notice it !

 

What about alcohol ? How do people usually feel like while consuming alcohol when they're in SSRI's withdrawal ?

[Erell]

We strongly advise To avoid alcohol during WD : it Will make things harder for your CNS, and we often notice that alcohol triggers symptoms

🙃

[Syntaxerror]

Thanks !

 

Also, why do I feel like SSRI's make me dumber (just like I may feel under other substances like alcohol) ? Is this common ?

[Syntaxerror]

New question, I hope someone will take that bottle in the sea.

 

Is it a common thing to experience a "high" in the first few days after tapering Prozac ? And some time after that the withdrawal begins ?

 

I tapered from 15 to 10 mg a month ago, and it took maybe 2 weeks before I get worse.

 

 

[Gridley]

36 minutes ago, Syntaxerror said:

I tapered from 15 to 10 mg a month ago, and it took maybe 2 weeks before I get worse.

 

Prozac has the longest half life (meaning that it stays in your system) of any SSRI.  That means there's a delay before the reduced dose(s) are felt.

[Syntaxerror]

22 hours ago, Gridley said:

Prozac has the longest half life (meaning that it stays in your system) of any SSRI.  That means there's a delay before the reduced dose(s) are felt.

Sure, I read about that too. Prozac has about 5/6 days half-life, and around a full month to be out of body.

 

My question really was about that "high" occuring everytime I taper. Did anyone experience this before ?

[Gridley]

8 minutes ago, Syntaxerror said:

 

My question really was about that "high" occuring everytime I tapper. Is this common ?

I haven't heard of it but there's a lot we don't know about these drugs.  Maybe your body is happy to be on less and less of this poison.