Monkeymind: arrived here by chance, depressed almost all my life

[Monkeymind]

I arrived to this website by chance while googling advises about Bupropion tapering off. Stumbled upon this post: https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/877-tips-for-tapering-off-wellbutrin-sr-xr-xl-buproprion/?tab=comments#comment-7534

 

this passage is basically the summary of my last 12 years of antidepressants treatment (I’m 49, being depressed most of my life):

 

Bupropion as an adjunct to antidepressants to counter sexual side effects
Way back in ancient history, around the year 2000, it became apparent these fabulous wonder drugs, the SSRIs, which were supposed to alleviate depression with almost no side effects, had a huge drawback that might slow sales: They caused sexual dysfunction in a high percentage of those who took them.
 
This caused great consternation among the pharmaceutical companies, who went through varying cycles of denying that sexual dysfunction was a frequent consequence of SSRIs, claiming the sexual dysfunction was due to the underlying depression, and searching for pharmaceutical solutions to this adverse effect.
 
It was also observed that bupropion had fewer sexual side effects and that some patients found it sexually stimulating. Seizing the opportunity to preserve their sales, the drug companies initiated campaigns to educate doctors that, in the rare cases where sexual dysfunction was a problem, bupropion might be added to an SSRI to alleviate the problem.
 
It did seem to help some, but its usefulness for this purpose is mostly a product of drug company propaganda. Also, to preserve sales of SSRIs, the drug companies neglected to inform doctors that being an antidepressant itself, Wellbutrin might replace the SSRI, and there was no reason to keep people on two drugs when one drug would do.
 
(Later, when Viagra and Cialis became available, much research and furor was generated to recommend them as adjuncts to SSRIs -- adding yet another profitable drug. Alas, they proved to be ineffective for women.)
 
Bupropion, unfortunately, comes with a few common adverse effects of its own, such as jitteriness, agitation, nervousness, anxiety, fast heartbeat, and sleeplessness. Doctors were advised to add benzodiazepines to the mix for these symptoms. (Later, these symptoms were judged to be possible symptoms of bipolar disorder, indicated the addition of antipsychotics such as Seroquel.)
 
This ushered in the era of the common combination of an SSRI, bupropion, and a benzo (or low-dose Seroquel) for many people complaining of any kind of "depression." As all of these drugs incur physiological dependency, this cocktail is very well represented on this site.

 

 

I’m amazed. Decided to subscribe to the forum right away.

 

my story is very long and quite complicated (like many of us I guess). I will try to talk about it in the coming time.

 

for now, I’m grateful to have found you. I’m exhausted now but I’ll come back soon and try to talk a little bit about my story.

 

I was trying to taper off bupropion and I just discovered that I made a big mistake reading the post above: skipping doses. Being doing that for 1 month, now I feel like ****.

 

thNks again

 

[Gridley]

Welcome, Monkeymind,

 

To give members the best information, we ask them to summarize their medication history in a signature -- drugs, doses, dates, and discontinuations & reinstatements, in the last 12-24 months particularly.

 

Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature.

 

We strongly recommend against skipping doses.  The central nervous system craves stability, and alternate day dosing is very destabilizing, as it amount to a 50% drop in dosage.

At Surviving Antidepressants, it is recommended that a person taper by no more than 10% of their current dose with at least a four week hold in-between decreases.  

 

Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

 

What are your symptoms?

 

Reinstatement of a very small dose of the original drug is the only known way to help alleviate withdrawal syndrome.  The only other alternative is to try and wait out the symptoms and manage as best you can until your central nervous system returns to homeostasis.  Unfortunately no one can give you an exact timeline as to when you will start feeling better and while some do recover relatively easily, for others it can take many months or longer.  Please read:

 

About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms. -- at least the first page of the topic

 

After you have completed your signature, we can suggest a dosage, which will be very small,  to reinstate.  Please do not reinstate without first hearing from us.  Reinstatement of too large a dose can be very destabilizing.

 

We don't recommend a lot of supplements on SA, as many members report being sensitive to them due to our over-reactive nervous systems, but two supplements that we do recommend are magnesium and omega 3 (fish oil). Many people find these to be calming to the nervous system. 

 

Magnesium, nature's calcium channel blocker 

 

Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil) 

 

Please research all supplements first and only add in one at a time and at a low dose in case you do experience problems.

 

 

 

 

 

[Monkeymind]

Hi All,

 

just signed up yesterday, as I promised this is my story... well to cut it short I will stick to the last few years only.

 

Moved to Thailand from Europe following a job proposal and the dream of "changing my life for better" after been chronically depressed most of my live (I'm 49 now). When I moved I was taking (hope to remember accurately):

 

- Wellbutrin XL 300 mg (generic version)

- Sertaline (150 mg)

- Seroquel 25 mg

- Besides, I've been prescribed Cialis 5 mg every other day by my andrologist for my ED problems

 

By hte way, interestingly I just discovered (reading this https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/877-tips-for-tapering-off-wellbutrin-sr-xr-xl-buproprion/?tab=comments#comment-7534) that I had been given a "standard" antidepressant solution, standard for the era I was prescribed (around 2007/08).

 

I moved to Thailand in 2014 and tried to find local version of my meds, I found everything except Wellbutrin, so I had to resort to Quomem SR 150 mg. For the first period I just took the same dosages of all the above meds.

After a while (I don't know exactly how long, maybe 6 months maybe 1 year) I started to halve the Bupropion (Quomem): instead of 2x 150 mg a day I took only 1 per day. I didn't know the difference between XL and SR and it was very difficult to get ahold of my psychiatrist back in Europe. Anyways, apparently I didn't notice any particular worsening of my depression and it helped saving some money and gave me the feeling of having gotten better.

 

After another while I thought I could try a similar thing with the Sertraline and I started reducing by 25 mg (I now see you recommend no more than 10% but at the time I didn't know). It kind of worked and with time I went down to 50 mg per day.

 

Then something very bad happened 1 and a half year ago: I got a chronic disease diagnose and my world fell into pieces. I had to start medications (anti-retroviral) right away for the rest of my life.

 

Skipping forward: trying to reduce the pills burden I first removed the Seroquel 25 mg about 8/10 months ago. I guess it was prescribed for my sleep and in fact I got more difficulties sleeping. I started removing 12.5 mg until I removed it completely over 3/4 months. I decided to accept the sleep issues for the sake of reducing the pills.

 

Then since I didn't feel so bed in the end (or that's the story I was telling myself, I don't know), I started tapering off the remaining Sertraline (50 mg) quote gradually over another 3/4 months: I didn't feel much of a relapse so I kept going, until about 2 or 2 months after completely quitting: then I started to notice a steady decline in my mood and irritability.

 

For some reasons instead of reinstate the Sertraline I kept going on with my declining mood, trying to counteract with psycotherapy (found a therapist and started 1 year ago), self-help, philosophy and a little physical exercise.

 

Last chapter: 1 month ago I decide to taper off Bupriopion and I start skip my dose every other day, so I take 150 mg one day and nothing the next and so on. At this point I start to feel extremely tired and drained, beside my mood plummeting to steady sadness and emotivity.

 

Yesterday, I thought to do some research and stumbled upon the above post: decided to reinstate the skipped dosage of Burpropion and with increasing anxiety decided to reinstate the Setraline and I took a 50 mg dose.

 

This is only the last few years. I'm sorry if this sounds crazy but that's it.

 

I need some some help.

 

Thanks

 

 

[Monkeymind]

Thank you so much! I really need advise, I’m currently living in a country where depression and mental issues in general are still not much considered. Let alone in depth discussions about antidepressants. I resorted to a couple of psychiatrists over time but the discussion had been more philosophical than medical. A sort of priest advice.

I will consult anyways with a psychiatrist before making other decisions but as I said Ireally could help some support.

 

Thanks again 

 

Edited October 2, 2018 by ChessieCat
removed quote

[Monkeymind]

I reinstated the skipped dose of Buproprion and things are a little bit better but mu mood is really gloomy and I have trouble sleeping. What should I do? How can I tell symptoms of real depression from symptoms of withdrawal? What other options (if any) I have to antidepressant considering I've been in talk therapy for decades (usually therapists gave up on me after many years of therapy)?

 

By the way, am I posting this in the right section?

 

Thanks

[ChessieCat]

1 hour ago, Monkeymind said:

am I posting this in the right section?

 

Yes,

 

To help us out please create your drug signature.

• details for last 2 years - dates, ALL drugs, doses
• summary for older than 2 years - just years and drug/s

Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature

 

Is it withdrawal or relapse?  Or something else?

How do I know it's withdrawal and not relapse?

[jozeff]

Hello monkeymind,

 

Just bumped into your story....

 

I'm so sorry you have to go through all of this.

 

You did your homework that's for sure. The pharmaceutical industry is mighty powerful. I'm a chemist and I have worked for several companies a few years doing quality control. 

 

These companies are absolutely horny about their own products. Never ever have I heard about side effects or any negative story let alone WD effects. I worked for the company who produced remeron and that was a miracle drug they told their employees. Later on I worked for Astra zeneca and they are even more convinced about their stuff....

 

You don't hear the real stories of course.

The managers and ceo's are brainwashed to believe everything. One bad word and your out. 

 

They tell/sell the doctors a lot of things and they have to work hard for their money so they are eager to give patients some medication so that a nice bonus can be earned.

 

A doctor told me that they prescribe the same medication ,like for example citalopram, many times because they have built up a lot of experience with these meds and don't want to change meds. I don't know what this experience might be because, once prescribed, they literally never ask you ever again how your meds are working or if you are thinking about taking this stuff the rest of your life.

 

I think some money is involved in this story....

 

The sexual dysfunctionality is another story. I had this for a few years. Pretty nasty when you have a new girlfriend and your madly in love but your sexdrive is zero. The companies admit this but say this might be a problem for a few patients. I never met anyone who's sexdrive was not massively decreased while on ssri's. I know this because my entire family was on these medications for years and years. 

 

I find it hard to tell if symptoms are depression or WD! Your question is very relevant. That's one ofy major issues right now. Is the underlying depression returning and should I updose or is it WD and should I stabilize and taper ......

 

The doctors will tell you it's old symptoms returning, that's almost for sure.

 

You say therapists gave up on you after talking for years. Did you try many of them. I have this experience as well. What they tell me feels like water flowing over my body and when I'm home I'm dry again and can't remember half of it. 

 

Too much talking is sometimes adverse effect. Focussing on the symptoms and problems and talking about it a lot keeps the so alive.

 

Just living an active live and focusing on my family that's what I'm trying to do.

 

I think you definitely are posting in the right section. I hope that some people will join here and give you some good advice about your medication.

 

Good luck with your struggle!

 

 

Cheers

 

Jozeff

 

 

[ChessieCat]

2 hours ago, jozeff said:

Too much talking is sometimes adverse effect. Focussing on the symptoms and problems and talking about it a lot keeps the so alive.

 

jozeff makes a good point here.  Therapy needs to be a combination of dealing with pasts issues and also learning techniques to cope with life now and in the future.

• Non-drug techniques to cope
• Acceptance
• Acceptance and Mindfulness
• Claire Weekes' Method of Recovering from a Sensitized Nervous System
• "Change the channel" -- dealing with cognitive symptoms
• Change cognitive framing - Redirect - Another Way
• Cognitive Behavior Therapy (CBT) for anxiety, depression
• Cognitive Behavior Therapy lessons

[Monkeymind]

On 10/2/2018 at 2:40 AM, Gridley said:

Welcome, Monkeymind,

 

To give members the best information, we ask them to summarize their medication history in a signature -- drugs, doses, dates, and discontinuations & reinstatements, in the last 12-24 months particularly.

 

Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature.

 

We strongly recommend against skipping doses.  The central nervous system craves stability, and alternate day dosing is very destabilizing, as it amount to a 50% drop in dosage.

At Surviving Antidepressants, it is recommended that a person taper by no more than 10% of their current dose with at least a four week hold in-between decreases.  

 

Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

 

What are your symptoms?

 

Reinstatement of a very small dose of the original drug is the only known way to help alleviate withdrawal syndrome.  The only other alternative is to try and wait out the symptoms and manage as best you can until your central nervous system returns to homeostasis.  Unfortunately no one can give you an exact timeline as to when you will start feeling better and while some do recover relatively easily, for others it can take many months or longer.  Please read:

 

About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms. -- at least the first page of the topic

 

After you have completed your signature, we can suggest a dosage, which will be very small,  to reinstate.  Please do not reinstate without first hearing from us.  Reinstatement of too large a dose can be very destabilizing.

 

We don't recommend a lot of supplements on SA, as many members report being sensitive to them due to our over-reactive nervous systems, but two supplements that we do recommend are magnesium and omega 3 (fish oil). Many people find these to be calming to the nervous system. 

 

Magnesium, nature's calcium channel blocker 

 

Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil) 

 

Please research all supplements first and only add in one at a time and at a low dose in case you do experience problems.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Eventually managed to update my signature after restoring the skipped Bupropion dose (I tried talking it every other day last September): included only mental health related meds. As I wrote I'm taking antiretroviral meds about since 1.5 years after a bad dx: I feel ashamed about it and fear stigma to share details: this in turn made necessary to add statins (rosuvastatin) to  limit the cholesterol boost. 

 

I also decided to fire my therapist 3 weeks ago after he suggested out of the blu (and after 1 year of sessions) to resort to ECT as a "last hope". Visited a psychiatrist who suggested to double up the Buproprion and add Trazodone 25 mg, both as anti-depressant and sleep help. I didn't take his advice fearing drug interactions and decided to start to exercise (swimming) on regular weekly basis. Got some minor benefits from it: improved self-image, feeling of taking better care of myself, help sleeping (this is still not enough though, I sleep  hours/night on average).

 

Thanks for your thoughts

[Monkeymind]

Dear Josef,

 

I'm so grateful for your long answer and feel guilty for my late reply: I'm struggling with a very bad situation, that's my excuse. I'll try to add my comments to your thoughts below, in the passages that particularly caught my attention.

 

On 10/16/2018 at 2:36 AM, jozeff said:

 

Hello monkeymind,

 

Just bumped into your story....

 

I'm so sorry you have to go through all of this.

 

You did your homework that's for sure. The pharmaceutical industry is mighty powerful. I'm a chemist and I have worked for several companies a few years doing quality control. 

 

These companies are absolutely horny about their own products. Never ever have I heard about side effects or any negative story let alone WD effects. I worked for the company who produced remeron and that was a miracle drug they told their employees. Later on I worked for Astra zeneca and they are even more convinced about their stuff....

 

You don't hear the real stories of course.

The managers and ceo's are brainwashed to believe everything. One bad word and your out. 

 

They tell/sell the doctors a lot of things and they have to work hard for their money so they are eager to give patients some medication so that a nice bonus can be earned.

 

A doctor told me that they prescribe the same medication ,like for example citalopram, many times because they have built up a lot of experience with these meds and don't want to change meds. I don't know what this experience might be because, once prescribed, they literally never ask you ever again how your meds are working or if you are thinking about taking this stuff the rest of your life.

 

I think some money is involved in this story....

 

To be honest, I'm not a chemist nor a doctor or a meds expert, anyways in my particular case, when I was in a really bad place (quasi-severe depression, "quasi" because I was never officially hospitalized for that), I think actually meds help me somehow to regain at least my mental/physical energy back. I'm talking about the last years when I was working both with talk therapy and meds.
Where I don't agree now though is that the psychiatrist I was working with at some point told me I got everything I could get from talk therapy and suggested me to end that and stay on meds indefinitely. I think that's where I "lost myself" again and what brought me now in a even worst position than before (physical chronic disease): I thought medication was "taking care" of myself, not me. I was convinced my depression was completely physical and I had no power on it in any way than taking meds.

 

 

On 10/16/2018 at 2:36 AM, jozeff said:

 

The sexual dysfunctionality is another story. I had this for a few years. Pretty nasty when you have a new girlfriend and your madly in love but your sexdrive is zero. The companies admit this but say this might be a problem for a few patients. I never met anyone who's sexdrive was not massively decreased while on ssri's. I know this because my entire family was on these medications for years and years. 

 

One of the big reasons pushed me in the depression in the first place was ED: I was only 23 yo and not ready to face such a traumatic event. Besides, I had fallen in (mad) love with a girl and I thought my life had no sense anymore. Eventually I fall into depression with a heap of other physical symptoms (pain, neurological symptoms, tinnitus, severe anxiety) and the girl of course left me after a few years of torment. That was the bottom of the pit. I lost myself, started to numb myself with alcohol and weed (luckily didn't try anything heavier). It took me several years before reaching for talk therapy and, after that seemed not to work it out alone, another several to get on meds.

At the and of this long long process I was, as I said above, dismissed on "indefinite lasting meds therapy": meds had somehow made me function, I had a job and ED meds made me thinking I could have a nearly normal sexual life. I felt almost happy for the first time in decades. I suspect the problem was I considered everything a medication problem, forgetting to work on myself to understand what I really wanted form life, now that I could approach a situation were I may be able to have one back.

Now I feel I'm back at to the start place in a even worst situation and with most of my life behind my back.

 

 

On 10/16/2018 at 2:36 AM, jozeff said:

 

I find it hard to tell if symptoms are depression or WD! Your question is very relevant. That's one ofy major issues right now. Is the underlying depression returning and should I updose or is it WD and should I stabilize and taper ......

 

The doctors will tell you it's old symptoms returning, that's almost for sure.

 

You say therapists gave up on you after talking for years. Did you try many of them. I have this experience as well. What they tell me feels like water flowing over my body and when I'm home I'm dry again and can't remember half of it. 

 

Over the years I tried individual psycoanalysis (brief), group transactional therapy (E.Berne) for 5/6 years, individual psycodynamic therapy for 5/6 years. As I said what seemed to really help me get out of the swamp were meds with therapy. What I think was I big mistake (of my psychiatrist first of all and mine too) was to dismiss me on indefinite meds therapy without considering the need to get out of meds at some point. This leaves you with the feeling that you have a completely physical illness, like hepatitis or diabetes, and that you need meds for the rest of your life. There's nothing else you can do to improve your condition. I think I ended up living in a "limbo", instead of keep working on my "existential malaise"

 

On 10/16/2018 at 2:36 AM, jozeff said:

 

Too much talking is sometimes adverse effect. Focussing on the symptoms and problems and talking about it a lot keeps the so alive.

 

Just living an active live and focusing on my family that's what I'm trying to do.

 

On 10/16/2018 at 2:36 AM, jozeff said:

 

I think you definitely are posting in the right section. I hope that some people will join here and give you some good advice about your medication.

 

Good luck with your struggle!

 

 

Cheers

 

Jozeff

 

 

 

[Monkeymind]

On 10/16/2018 at 4:48 AM, ChessieCat said:

 

jozeff makes a good point here.  Therapy needs to be a combination of dealing with pasts issues and also learning techniques to cope with life now and in the future.

• Non-drug techniques to cope
• Acceptance
• Acceptance and Mindfulness
• Claire Weekes' Method of Recovering from a Sensitized Nervous System
• "Change the channel" -- dealing with cognitive symptoms
• Change cognitive framing - Redirect - Another Way
• Cognitive Behavior Therapy (CBT) for anxiety, depression
• Cognitive Behavior Therapy lessons

 

Yes, good point. What I also recently discovered and opened to me new horizons is ACT (Acceptance and Commitment Therapy). It's an approach that mixes together acceptance, mindfulness and life values discovery. I'm still studying it but I think it's really interesting. Unfortunately though I don't believe in therapists anymore after my experiences with many of them, so I'm reading about it and trying to apply the concepts (when I can).

 

Thanks for the links, I will definitely explore theme.

 

[jozeff]

Hi monkeymind,

 

It's ok. Your reply is great. 

It's a good thing that you are doing some acceptance therapy. It might be true that you have most of your life behind you ( unless you will be 100 some day😙).

But, my mom is 71 and she is exploring new things every day, meeting new people, and loving life although she is divorced, has heart and bone issues.

 

It's also a way of thinking and coping. I'm much more negative to things than my mom or my wife. I tend to see problems in a lot of things. 

My medication makes me more numb but doesn't turn me into a positive person.

 

I also thought the meds would 'take care' of me and that it would be much easier taking them.... Wrong decision. I'm so nb that I don't even learn from my mistakes...just don't care. Next time same problem same mistake..

 

Good luck with your feelings!!

 

 

Jozeff

[Monkeymind]

38 minutes ago, jozeff said:

Hi monkeymind,

 

It's ok. Your reply is great. 

It's a good thing that you are doing some acceptance therapy. It might be true that you have most of your life behind you ( unless you will be 100 some day😙).

But, my mom is 71 and she is exploring new things every day, meeting new people, and loving life although she is divorced, has heart and bone issues.

 

It's also a way of thinking and coping. I'm much more negative to things than my mom or my wife. I tend to see problems in a lot of things. 

My medication makes me more numb but doesn't turn me into a positive person.

 

I also thought the meds would 'take care' of me and that it would be much easier taking them.... Wrong decision. I'm so nb that I don't even learn from my mistakes...just don't care. Next time same problem same mistake..

 

Good luck with your feelings!!

 

 

Jozeff

 

 

Thank you for your encouraging words Jozeff. That helps.

 

Actually I’m going be 50 yo in a few months, so I should feel still “young” by modern standards. The fact is the type of life I 

lived, the  stresses and physical conditions I accumulated over the decades, plus the bad illness I caught (I still can’t forgive myself for that), don’t make me look at the future with optimism.

 

Anyways, now what I’d like to get is to get rid of as much medications I can: some of them are life-savers, so I can’t stop them but  I’d like to try to see if I can get to a point where I may be able to get rid at least of the antidepressants (or at least taking them only for limited periods). What I’m trying now is keeping myself actively involved in my work, physical exercise, philosophy (I like Stoicism) and self help books/therapies study (I know self help it’s not recommend but after so many experiences I don’t trust therapists anymore).

 

Your mum example is inspiring! I couldn’t have my own children but I have two little “adopted” girls (in the country where I live intra-family adoption in common practice), they are my main source of happiness right now, along with swimming, massage and good readings.

 

Take care

[jozeff]

Hi Monkey,

 

How are you doing these days?

 

What kind of self help are you practicing if I may ask?

 

 

Have a nice day!!

 

 

Cheers

 

 

Jozeff

 

[Monkeymind]

Hi Josef,

 

sorry for late answer. My self help practice is:

 

- Regular physical exercise: swimming at least 3 times a week for 30 min

- Studying and trying to apply ACT (Acceptance and Commitment Therapy): acceptance of painful thoughts, defusion from thoughts, mindfulness, acting according to one own life values

- Stoicism philosophy study helped me a lot, it's very "consolatory": I read books, listen to podcasts and "meditate" about Stoicism principles

- I try to do my job with passion and giving it the best I can (as far as possible)

- I spend time with my grand daughter (actually more of a daughter than a grand daughter) and try to make her happy

 

The part I still struggle with is the social relations: I still don't like most of the people I get around me. I tolerate them but I don't want to get involved with them, especially coworkers. Also my marriage is quite "complicated": I still have a good relationship with my wife and we respect each other but we don't have sex since many years (this is my "fault" cause I lack desire for her) and as result I do look for and have occasional sex with other women: I know this is unfair but this is it. After many years we reached a sort of "equilibrium" about sex: we don't talk about it and don't practice it. As I said, it's complicated.

 

M