Ethan: first benzos, now Remeron

[Ethan]

Hi All, I am a transplant from benzobuddies, I had to give in in benzo withdrawal and Remron literally saved my life; a year later and I am almost ready to start tapering remeron. Looking for all the help I can Get.

[Altostrata]

Welcome, Ethan.

 

You're probably familiar with the general idea of tapering. Here's the methodology we recommend:

 

Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

 

Tips for tapering off Remeron (mirtazapine)

 

Tapering Remeron too fast often results in rebound insomnia. You won't want this. Please let us know how you're doing.

[Ethan]

Hi all,

 

I'm a long time Benzo + Alcohol user; I got on a stomach medication (Librax) with a light benzo (Librium) daily for a couple of years and that set up a horrible withdrawal, it took about 18 months to start to feel normal.

 

Over a year ago I started Remeron 15mg, this drug literally saved my life during withdrawal from benzos; now that I am feeling better I'd like to come off Remeron becuase of the weight gain, and in my mind I am blaming it for muscle weakness and poping joints that started around the 3rd month and seem to be getting worse; also my energy levels keep going down.

 

I gained 25 extra pounds and I've lost most of them doing a keto diet, but I imagine it's mosly water and lean body mass as my waist size is very stubborn on this drug, even with the weight loss its always hard to move my upper body around the bed and couch, and the popping drives me nuts. In the gym I can do everything and I go every day with a bodybuilding routine, there I have seen improvements is stamina, just not strength.

 

In experimenting I've learned that I am hyper-sensitive to Remeron as it's the only drug I have in my system, a benzo withdrawal coach helped me see that the cleaner you are the harder it is. I know even the difference between brands of generics and I've gotten to a point where I have to have an exact brand.

 

I optimistically tried to halve the dose a few months back and that backfired the same day, last week I tried to do a 15% drop and that was great the first day but horrible after the second day, I tried coming up to 10% cut as standard but I assume it wasn't enough to undo my bouts from the last days. Yesterday I went back to 100% and feel like a human again. I am looking to get support and leave a trail for those who come after with the same, and make it a bit easier for them.

[Ethan]

I am quite intrigued and want to try the Brassmonkey Slide Method, I how long should would you wait to start after a filed attempt?

[Altostrata]

Hello, Ethan. Good to hear you're feeling better from benzo withdrawal.

 

Since the Brassmonkey Slide is a micro-taper, you can give it a try any time. As you are still healing from benzo withdrawal, you might want to slide very s...l...o...w...l...y.

 

Please let us know how you're doing.

[Ethan]

It seems Remeron stopped working, I could have guessed it by my super sensitivity to the brand of generics. Now I am stuck at a place where I am as bad as before I started taking it and if I try to taper I get hit even worse. Biggest issues are dizziness and my working memory is shot.

 

Sorry to be a drag, but to the mods and experienced people, what can I do??? 

[Gridley]

35 minutes ago, Ethan said:

if I try to taper I get hit even worse.

What percentage did you drop?  Was it from 15mg?

[Ethan]

Yes, from 15mg; first I tried 20%, then I tried 10% to quickly, then I waited a few days until I felt OK and just filed the pill a bit, it really didn't even register on the scale.

 

Now I am at the 15mg but I can't stabilize or have a couple of days when I feel OK.

 

 

[Gridley]

1 hour ago, Ethan said:

 

Now I am at the 15mg but I can't stabilize or have a couple of days when I feel OK.

I suggest you hold at 15mg and make no changes until you stabilize.  Jumping around in dose has destabilized your system.  "Stabilize" means a steady state of feeling not great but with no big swings in symptoms.

 

Then, once you've stabilized, which can take some months, you could do a modified Brassmonkey slide taper.  The normal Brassmonkey taper consists of four equal equal weekly 2 1/2% tapers off current dose, followed by a two-week hold.  Since you said when you try to taper you get hit with symptoms, you could modify the taper the four 1% cuts instead of 2 1/2% to see how you tolerate that. 

The Brassmonkey Slide Method of Micro-tapering

[Ethan]

Thank you Gridley,

 

Today I am in a state of panic  worse than I've ever been; my skin is crawling and I am shaking. I've tried taking a 7.5mg rescue dose of Remeron but really don't know what to do. Has anybody ha this happen? What did you end up doing? I am scared I am going to have to go back on benzos, I've been in withdrawal 2 years now and don't want to loos all the work I've done.

[Gridley]

25 minutes ago, Ethan said:

I've been in withdrawal 2 years now and don't want to loos all the work I've done.

Ethan, I'm sorry you're feeling so bad.  

 

Try and remain as calm as possible and not to panic.  It's important to learn and use Non-drug techniques to cope

 

Audio:  First Aid for Panic (4 minutes)
 

CBT Course:  An Introductory Self-Help Course in Cognitive Behaviour Therapy
 

Audio:  How to Recover from Anxiety - Dr Claire Weekes
 

VIDEO:  Peace from Nervous Suffering - Claire Weekes (1 hour) (http://sendvid.com/vgquc1dg)
_____________

Anxiety Stuff - all kinds of stuff about anxiety attacks and things that help …

 

10 minute Restorative Yoga for Relaxation | Up the wall

[Ethan]

Thank you Gridley, I really appreciate your replies, more than you know.

 

I ended up taking a rescue dose of 7.5mm Remeron and that made my dizzy but brought me down to a bearable situation, today I am still in it but I can take it.

 

I will dive into those links. Thanks again!!

[Ethan]

I made it through and yesterday was a better day, now I have the tough task of going to my psychiatrist and getting a emergency plan or a med adjustment.

 

I've been thinking about how with benzos you can crossover to valium and then taper that, is this something that can be done with ADs?

 

I was also thinking if there is some magical test that can be done, lyme, gene mutation, thyroid? I'm probably in denial but there has to be a way to reduce the suffering, I can't believe the human brain can be this irrational without some major imbalance to it...

[Ethan]

My psychiatrist wants me to add Vrylar or Viibryd to Remeron, I really don't want to take any more drugs and get further from sobriety, I hate feeling chemically altered and now I feel drunk and drugged all the time.

 

I spoke to Baylissa also, but it was quite the difficult call, as I know she has all the experience to help but now she won't say anything at all for fear of another lawsuit. She did mention to ask @Altostrata for help with my taper when I am ready. If you read this I could really use your advice; I'm backed into a corner and no lifeline to use.

[Altostrata]

On 7/27/2019 at 9:31 AM, Ethan said:

It seems Remeron stopped working, I could have guessed it by my super sensitivity to the brand of generics. Now I am stuck at a place where I am as bad as before I started taking it and if I try to taper I get hit even worse. Biggest issues are dizziness and my working memory is shot.

 

Sorry to be a drag, but to the mods and experienced people, what can I do??? 

 

Ethan, what happened just prior to this? Did you change the Remeron dosage? From what to what?

 

Exactly how did Remeron "stop working"? Were you taking it for sleep?

 

On 8/1/2019 at 6:58 AM, Ethan said:

I made it through and yesterday was a better day, now I have the tough task of going to my psychiatrist and getting a emergency plan or a med adjustment.

 

I've been thinking about how with benzos you can crossover to valium and then taper that, is this something that can be done with ADs?

 

I was also thinking if there is some magical test that can be done, lyme, gene mutation, thyroid? I'm probably in denial but there has to be a way to reduce the suffering, I can't believe the human brain can be this irrational without some major imbalance to it...

 

Since you added Remeron (still not clear how much you were taking), this indicates your symptoms were from Remeron withdrawal.

 

There is no crossover for Remeron, people taper it directly. If you are taking it for sleep, you might get rebound insomnia when you lower the dose. The solution is to taper it very gradually so you don't lose sleep.

 

There is no test to identify the cause of withdrawal problems. The cause is your entire body has adapted to this psychoactive drug and it's having trouble re-adapting when you lower the dosage. There is no major imbalance. This is an adverse drug effect.

 

4 hours ago, Ethan said:

My psychiatrist wants me to add Vrylar or Viibryd to Remeron, I really don't want to take any more drugs and get further from sobriety, I hate feeling chemically altered and now I feel drunk and drugged all the time.

 

I spoke to Baylissa also, but it was quite the difficult call, as I know she has all the experience to help but now she won't say anything at all for fear of another lawsuit. She did mention to ask @Altostrata for help with my taper when I am ready. If you read this I could really use your advice; I'm backed into a corner and no lifeline to use.

 

If I were you, I would not add another drug for Remeron withdrawal. In my opinion, that is a cockamamie drug cocktail your psychiatrist suggested, and if he made it to me, I would find someone with common sense instead of an inclination to prescribe fringy antidepressants.

 

On the other hand, if you feel you need drug treatment for depression, take whatever you think you need. We don't prescribe drugs or treat depression here. We counsel people about tapering.

[Ethan]

Thank you so much for your reply @Altostrata I've always taken 15mg of Remeron since I started it, It was to help benzo withdrawal an let me sleep.

 

35 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Ethan, what happened just prior to this? Did you change the Remeron dosage? From what to what?

 

Exactly how did Remeron "stop working"? Were you taking it for sleep?

 

Yes, I changed the dose from my usual 15mg to about 13mg for only 3 days

Remeron was helping bring me down from a hard benzo withdrawal, by now I am 19 months out from that.

 

My question is if it's normal to have the constant drunk-drugged feeling when you reach tolerance (I imagine that's whats going on) or after a failed taper attempt?

 

How long do people usually take to stabilize? I understand nobody knows, but just asking as ball park statistic of the majority.

 

I'm Just trying to find the best course of action that will help my odds of stabilizing and tapering successfully. I guess that would literally be:

 

53 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

We counsel people about tapering.

 

And I am very thankful for that help.

[Altostrata]

1 hour ago, Ethan said:

My question is if it's normal to have the constant drunk-drugged feeling when you reach tolerance (I imagine that's whats going on) or after a failed taper attempt? 

 

What constant drunk-drugged feeling? When did this start?

 

You seem to be in a fragile state because of your earlier withdrawals. Your vulnerable nervous system was upset by the recent Remeron change (greater than the 10% we recommend). It will take some time to settle down. You got rebound insomnia. I don't know what you mean by tolerance.

[Ethan]

4 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

What constant drunk-drugged feeling? When did this start?

 

A feeling like I'm dizzy, very dizzy like I'm Drunk and de-realization. The slightest stress/movement gets me in that state; only when I'm lying in bed staring at the ceiling meditating can I feel sober.

It Started Tuesday.

 

5 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

I don't know what you mean by tolerance.

 

That I reached the point where my 15mg is like taking nothing at all.

 

6 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

It will take some time to settle down.

 

Thank you again @Altostrata I really appreciate your feedback.

[Altostrata]

23 hours ago, Ethan said:

It Started Tuesday.

 

This is probably related to your decrease about a week ago. It can take time to stabilize after reinstatement. See The Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

[Ethan]

It has been another month in this experience, last time I was here I was in a dark place; what I did to get out of it is start eating a lot of carbs, it seems that Remeron isn't too happy when you are trying to loose weight, plus I am pretty sure I am it tolerance withdrawal.

 

As of now I stabilized my weight and am now back in the mix again, I have gained 10 pounds in the last month but it was well worth it to have a couple of normal weeks. I just can't keep doing it or I will end up in one of those 600 pound life series, I am already a bit chunky.

 

As of now the biggest thing is that the slightest feeling of seeing some light distortion that I think may not be real throws me in a horror state, or some loud noise can do it too; the feeling that I forgot something is even worse. I think it's that I am in fight or flight that I may start to hallucinate or have some serious health issue.

 

My conscious self knows that I am a blessed person, but there is something underneath that is freaking out; it seems it has always been like this, if you have any experience with this please comment.