Ventus: intro

[ChessieCat]

10 hours ago, Ventus said:

Yeah I don't get anxious either but the sensation doesn't go away on its own. Last time I had it it took somewhere between 4 to 6 weeks to fully resolve. So I pause tapering and wait however long it takes  I guess.

 

You are making reductions larger than 10%.  The reduction for the next drop is calculated on the previous dose not the starting dose.  Many members find that the lower their dose gets the slower they need to go, reducing less and/or hold longer.

 

Why taper paper: dose-occupancy curves

[Ventus]

I unfortunately agree. But first I need to stablize before I make the smaller drops. I am thinking of going back to 1mg and waiting however long. Then doing the 10%. 

[Ventus]

1 hour ago, ChessieCat said:

.  The question I would ask myself was:  can I live with this symptom if it continues?

Good point I can live like this for a little while. If it clears up in a month or so I will be good

[Ventus]

Strach that. I can not sleep. And my neck is pulsing so much it feels like I can't breath, I can indeed breath it's just very uncomfortable.  I can't live like this.

[ChessieCat]

2 hours ago, Ventus said:

Strach that. I can not sleep. And my neck is pulsing so much it feels like I can't breath, I can indeed breath it's just very uncomfortable.  I can't live like this.

 

If this has only happened once, then it is not a pattern.

 

It's important to try not to stress about symptoms it only adds more symptoms.  SA strongly encourages members to learn and use Non-drug techniques to cope.

 

From https://www.getselfhelp.co.uk/anxiety-self-help/

 

[Ventus]

It's been happening to various degrees every night since the 3rd. Honestly if it was just an emotional symptom I would be fine.  None of those bother me much. It's the physical pain and not sleeping well that gets me.

[Ventus]

Though I think last night's pain given the time I posted was due to me stupidity combining diphenhydramine and doxylamine to sleep. Not only did it not work too well the heart palpitations  magnified. I guess back to the editables and hope I stopped them long enough so I havent built tolerance 

[Ventus]

Anyway you all were correct and you can say I told you so. I bought a micropipette to help me. Though it goes in .005ml increments so I will have to round. But first I must wait till I am stable

[Ventus]

This  unfortunally feels a lot like back when I did the reinstatement with everything but the insomnia is either gone or hard to notice. The overheating under the covers thing ended late last week. I have been experimenting with various amounts of melatonin both instant and extended release. My best success so far was 5mg instant melatonin 2 hours before bed it was the first time since September that I actually feel asleep normally, unfortunately that was only 3.5 hours of sleep . I am thinking of getting another 30 days of Ambien to help me ride through this since it helped somewhat back then and I was able to just stop taking it with out any issues. Anyway still holding at .9mg and things haven't gotten any worse in the month of holding. 

[ChessieCat]

For Ventus' history:

 

  

3 hours ago, Ventus said:

I am starting to get itching at night again, it's been a year since I felt this. It stops me from sleeping too. I remember it happening and going away before but can't remember how. I think it just stopped after holding for a long while.

 

[Ventus]

In retrospect I wonder if that itching was caused by the new suppliment that I tried. Ashwagandha.  Anyway I don't think I can take too much more of this so in a week or 2 if I don't see sleep improvements I am gonna updose again. Probably to 2mg since that is where I would have been had I done the 10% every month. My question is what are the risks? Nothing bad happened in my reinstatement except i got to tinnitus and for the fact that it took 6 weeks for all the withdrawals to clear up.

 

I would rather stablize at .9mg and just not taper for the rest of the year but I want to know the risk of the updosing option 

[ChessieCat]

You have been on 0.9mg since 8th September so that is one month.  During that time your brain will have made adaptations to that dose (there is no way to know how much adaptation has occurred during that time) and updosing to 2mg might be too much.  If you do decide to updose you could try going up to 1mg.

 

When updosing it is generally better to do it in small increments than to risk taking too much would could possibly make things a lot worse.  There are SA members who have taken too much and then regretted that they didn't stick to the lesser dose.

 

Please see Post #1 of this topic, much of which applies to updosing:

 

About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms

[Ventus]

Cool I guess part 2 of that question.  I was ok on 1mg. 3 weeks of no withdrawal.   But I guess I hadn't fully adjusted down to it? I know you guys don't know for sure but I guess how I am feeling now means even 5 weeks on 1mg wasn't enough to fully adjust. Anyway I do hope that my body is adjusting to the .9mg and the withdrawals cease . Once they do I am gonna take a tapering break.

[Ventus]

Post moved from Stabilizing what does it mean topic.

 

So I  updosed to .9mg from .8mg when I couldn't handle the withdrawals. Some of them went away within a week but after a month on .9mg I feel no better for the one remaining insomnia. I know that my reinstatement took 6 weeks to stabilize and I should have waited but a few days ago I went back to 1mg, the last dose I was comfortable on, Nothing bad has happened in the 3 days, except for a slight increase in the tinnitus but I can handle that, but I know that I need to give it more time. I feel like I had not been giving my body enough time to adjust downward this past year. I am debating going up to 2mg since I was on that one for 2 months and the majority of that time was without any withdrawals.  What do people like me who tapered too quickly but not fully off do? Just wait till I stabilize? I understand it was my foolishness that put me in this position but I am still having trouble wrapping my head around the fact that I had no withdrawals at 1mg only to crash hard when I tried to get under it. At least during my CT things got worse over time. This feels like it went from 0 to 60 in the few days I was on .8

 

 

Edited October 9, 2022 by ChessieCat
added note

[Altostrata]

How much caffeine or alcohol, if any, do you drink? Do you take any other drugs or supplements at night?

 

Rather than reversing your taper of citalopram, why do you not keep doing this?

 

On 10/5/2022 at 9:39 AM, Ventus said:

My best success so far was 5mg instant melatonin 2 hours before bed it was the first time since September that I actually feel asleep normally, unfortunately that was only 3.5 hours of sleep . 

 

We expect improvement to be gradual. It's very possible you'd get several hours of sleep for a week and then gradually more sleep. That's how this works. We do not expect everything to get fixed instantly with a pill.

 

This topic explains proper use of melatonin Melatonin for sleep: Many people find it helpful

You'd take it at nightfall and turn off the lights.

 

Also see 

 

Tips to help sleep -- so many of us have that awful withdrawal insomnia

 

Path to Better Sleep FREE online for everyone from the US Veterans Administration

 

Music for self-care: Calms hyperalertness, anxiety, aids relaxation and sleep

 

White noise devices for sleep

 

Melatonin for sleep: Many people find it helpful

 

TV or computer use in evening can disrupt sleep: Bright light signals the brain that it's daytime

[Ventus]

That only worked once. I tried the next night and it didn't work. I have had 3 windows of sleeping on my own these 30 days.  Oh and strangly when I tried to cut out the morning caffine everything got worse. I could barely move after 2 days without it and had complete brain fog. All of which went away when I drank some caffine. I think I might be addicted to that morning starbucks. I have tried various supplements these 30 days but nothing regular except for magnesium. Those few nights I did sleep on my own were nights I only took melatonin and magnesium.   I have found no pattern to any of this. But I do agree those short windows give me hope.

[Ventus]

Also I got 14 days of ambien.  It's not very effective but it's doing more then it did back during the CT, during the ct ambien would sometimes do nothing and other times get me 2 hours. I got 4 hours one night and 6 the next. I find that so long as I get 6 hours I feel well rested. Hopefully this will hold me over until my body stablizes

[Ventus]

I got another night where I fell asleep on my own but it was unfortunately just 2 hours. I took 5mg instant melatonin, .6mg extended release.  500mg magnesium citrate., 750mg phosphatidyl. An unknown number of grams of glycine until I started getting nausea from all the suppliments.   I might try something similar tonight.  Maybe just magnesium glycinate so I don't feel nausea. I took these 2 hours before bed. I wonder if it would be helpful if I took the extended release melatonin closer to bed.

[Ventus]

Melatonin didn't do much of anything tonight. It gave me that sleepy feeling but no actual well sleep. Though i am itching so much right now I almost wonder if its some kinda antihistamine  withdrawal.  I guess I broke my brain. I don't understand how it can semi work one night and do nothing the next. This has been the case for all of September and October. 

[Ventus]

I have noticed for the past few days I do get a little of the tired feeling later on. Starting to feel it now as I am walking as the sun is setting but I still don't sleep usually. I get this weird mix of itching and heat as the night goes on. It's no longer when I go under the covers but more like triggered by the tiredness.  It seems to trigger closer to when I want to go to bed. And I am pretty dead to the world in the mornings. No spike of awareness or energy. Granted I started just wearing a sleep mask at night just because. 

[Ventus]

I tried just melatonin.  Only 2.6mg and some magnesium glycinate last night. I truly did feel tired expecally as the night worn on but could not sleep. And as I was laying there unable to sleep after 2 hours or so I started to get the night sweats then the tiredness just vanished . I gave up at that point and ate half an editable and slept 6 hours. I really hope soon that I will be able to sleep on my own again. 

[Ventus]

I have a question.  Why is it that high emotional states. Even normal ones worsen withdrawal? Someone accidentally broke my phone and I was livid so it has nothing to do with exaggerated emotions. I went into fight or flight for real and could not sleep even with sleep aids and I was tachycardic for the first time since my cold turkey. The fight or flight has worn off  now that i have a replacement  and I feel much calmer and steadier and a bit more normal then i have in over a month.but I also feel like I just ran a marathon.  

[ChessieCat]

dealing-with-emotional-spirals

 

neuro-emotions

 

 

 

[Ventus]

That's good advice. Luckily the emotions are done for me for now. And I forgave the guy who accidentally tripped me, he didn't mean to do it.

[Ventus]

On recommendation of a friend I have for the past 3 days been taking a suppliment mix called "cortisol manager ". It's a mix of herbs that claim to lower cortisol and assist sleep. I also have been taking magnesium glycinate, gaba, and the milk peptides.  I cut back the melatonin to 1.6mg a night. And I have slept between 4 to 6 hours a night for the past 3. Its been imperfect  sleep with lots of wakeups but its still far more refreshing then the sleep I got on the sleep aids. Since the "cortisol manager" is the main difference I think it might be whats helping. I don't want to take it long term since who knows what other effects the herbs have. But I am gonna for a week or 2. Similar to last year I find it strange that 4 to 6 hours a night is enough but I can feel my strength and focus returning to me. I hope it isn't the herb mix so I can drop them. If I can truly sleep 4 to 6 hours without those herbs then I will calm down and just remain at 1mg for some months till I get even better.

[Ventus]

I have a question that I wonder if you guys know or not. According to my sleep tracker I am getting lots of 1 hour sleeps were I am in light sleep and then deep sleep then wake up. I am unsure if its accurate but I definitely had  a dream during at least one of those hours. Can someone wake up from deep sleep? Is the sleep tracker wrong? I am finding it hard to believe what the sleep tracker is telling me.  I am occasionally getting 2 or so hour long sleeps that show the full sleep cycle so those I do believe are correct. 

[Ventus]

I slept normally yesterday! No supliments at all! But I did run 4.5 miles between  1pm and 2pm so that might have been it. I could not repeat that 2 days in a row so I walked for 3 miles today. Hopefully I sleep again

 

 

[Ventus]

I have a question for you guys. I started to be able to sleep with just melatonin again. I havent been able to replicate that one day of normal sleep unfortunately but I do fall asleep again. Only after an hour or 2 I wake up in sweat and sometimes with my heart racing. I can generally get 1 or 2 more hours after that. But this isn't a cortisol morning we are talking about its midnight or 1am. Can that happen in the middle of the night? My next wakeup after that feels pretty normal. It doesn't always happen and the degree to which it does happen has varied.  

[ChessieCat]

Yes, cortisol spikes can happen at any time of the day.  I sometimes get them at about 2 or 3 am.  I can be lying in bed awake and be very comfortable and then I feel this change in my body; it seems to start in my arms first, or at least that's what I notice.  There might be a connection, for me at least, with what I am thinking about; it seems to coincide with more negative thoughts or when I'm thinking about something that is a bit stressful.

 

Cortisol increases when we are stressed.

[ChessieCat]

Because I understand what it is I try to stay calm and not add more anxiety to it.  I do some calm breathing and try to relax and it does pass.  Sometimes I get sweaty (I can feel it oozing out of my pores and not in areas where you would expect it but different parts of the body), sometimes I feel hot (but not from being too warm in bed as I said I can be comfortable; it's a heat that comes from the inside) and sometimes both.

[ChessieCat]

And I am post menopausal so it is not hot flushes/flashes.

[Ventus]

Hmm I should try and see about my thought pattern then. I don't really have many stressful thoughts except about sleep. I wonder if me stressing about sleep is worsening my sleep.  What I have been doing is getting up breifly. 2 nights ago I fell back to sleep within 10 min. Other nights it's taken much longer. 

[ChessieCat]

22 minutes ago, Ventus said:

I wonder if me stressing about sleep is worsening my sleep. 

 

Quite possibly.  It's called anticipatory anxiety.

 

But it can be a bit of a vicious cycle, general anxiety can cause sleep issues then the sleep issues cause anxiety.

 

I did a search using the term:  anticipatory anxiety worksheet and there are several, which might be the same.  Here is one of them:

 

https://mentalhealthworksheets.com/anticipatory-anxiety-worksheet/

 

A search for:  "anticipatory anxiety" sleep

 

https://www.sleepfoundation.org/mental-health/anxiety-and-sleep

 

https://www.sleep.com/sleep-health/anticipatory-anxiety

[Ventus]

So I am having a bad night tonight. And I can tell you there is zero anxiety.  My body is just warm and wired. It feels more like an automatic thing then anything I have any control over. I have found that lately all the emotional stuff you guys talk about has little bearing for me.  It did earlier on with the wild emotions but that just hasnt happened in months. No neuro emotions no sprials. What I experience is nothing like what I read about in these pages.  It's hard to describe but it feels like my body is rebeling against sleep since the sweating and the uncomfortable warmth only happen when I am under the cover and go away within a few minutes if I take it off. Worst part though is I am tired. Part of my body is droopy eyed and I have that I want to go to sleep feeling but the other part just doesn't let it happen. It's very hard to describe but there is no anxiety.  

[Ventus]

Shortly after I posted this I took an extra 1mg of melatonin and 1 of the Seriphos capsules. Within an hour the bad feeling went away and I sleep for a very choppy 5 hours. Dunno if it was the pills or me but I slept a bit more then I have been

[Ventus]

Anyway I have been wondering something else for a while and am curious if you guys have seen it. You all talk alot about withdrawal hypersensitivity but for the most part I see the exact opposite . Expecally during this time of insomina where things that used to affect me, 1mg of melatonin used to be enough to put me out within an hour, do not anymore.  It feels like I have the opposite of hypersensitivity.  Those super small amounts of things you guys recommend would do absolutely nothing to me. I have to double or triple dose stuff to actually feel anything. I guess I have hyposensenitivity?