Arian: insomnia that keeps coming back

[Arian]

Hello dear people,

 

I found this site only few days ago and am overwhelmed with all of the usefull new informations so I have some questions to help me find solution for this circle that I am stuck in for 4 years now.

 

First time when I ended up on antidepressant was after a long period od very stresfull life, I was at the dead end. My body could not take it anymore and I started waking up im the middle od the night (panic attack). After few nights with almost no sleep, I was completely unfunctional. I starter taking fluvoxamin after a whole month not sleeping, got better after 4-5 more months and stopped with it during few weeks. After that I was very good (maye a bit too good) for 6 months when my problem started again - waking up from sleep. There was some stress but not as much as the first time. I figured out that I am again going to have many sleepless nigths so this time I instantly took fluvoxamin to help me start sleeping. After one month, I was still not sleeping. Then my phy gave me another one, no help again. Third one didn't help either. After 3 months not sleeping, I got clozapin. I started sleeping instantly, was better soon and stop on my phy suggestion with it after 3 months during few weeks (with no problems that I recall). Then I was again very very good for another 6 months. But after the 6 month period the same thing started - waking up as soon as I fell asleep. I was so desperate having to go throug this new hell once again and convenced that this was going to happen to the rest of my life. I didn't want medicine now and after 3 months not sleeping my work concentration got so bad that I was of no use for anyone anymore. I decided to end it all and took a whole pack od trintellix at once. I had an adverse reaction on it and ended up in phy hospital where I got lorazepan and venlafaxin xl. I took lorazepam for 5 months and venlafaxin for 8 months, got better, stopped using them again during only few weeks. After stoping venlafaxin, I had "hyper/mania" for next 6 months and after 6 month crashed again - the same sleep problems started again. But this time I got 5 different medicines which I will leave for now.

 

1. My first question is - how can I know are these second, third and fourth sleep issues relapses or withdrawal because of going of medicines too fast?

2. Also- why I started waiking up after as much as 6 months each time?

 

Each time after start od these sleep problems, I had so called "severe anxious-depressive disorder". It was like living in hell. Each minute seemed long as a year...

 

The second part of my story is even worse. Phy said that i had "mania" because of the venlafaxin, gave me a suspision for "bipolar" and 5 different meds, one of them antipsyhotic. I was very reluctant with starting this therapy, fought another opinion but that phy also reccomended the similar coctail. I didn't know what to do, my whole life was falling apart, I cried and agreed to start taking them. I so wish that I have found this forum earlier.... One of these medicines was aripripazol (the worst one if you ask me), another was escitalopram, third was lorazepam and I forgot another 2, something to stabilize my mood and one more. Both of those I stopped taking very soon, not more than a month. So, 3 are left. My sleep didn't improve all the time that I was on aripripazol so finnaly after 6 months on it my phy changet it for sulpirid.  I started sleeping but also god milk in my breasts so after a month, I stopped with sulpirid and she suggested quetiapine. Then I said - enough, I am not taking that one! Now I was on only 2 - lorazepam (5 mg) and escitalopram (20 mg). This was at february this year. I changed phy and the new one wants to put me of those medications if I can live without them. She suggested 10 mg of escitalopram insted od 20 mg 2 weeks ago. And 2.5 mg of lorazepam insted of 5 mg, but i switced to only one and a half tablet (which is 3.75 mg). And then I found out about all of wd issues and tapering and lie about chemical imbalanse and neurological damage to the brain.... I found out also that it is not reccomended to taper 2 medicines at the same time, first antidep, then benzo. So my questions are what to do next. I want to taper of the rest of the medicines but am worried about not sleeping again, I don't think that I can handle one more period of that hell.  My questions are:

 

3. Am I maybe now in wd because of stopping aripripazol before 4 months? After that I started to cry at least once a week almost with no control, it is not over yet.

4. I understand why tapering is important, but can't imagine taking these drugs for 2-3 years or more because I am not myself on them, I am different person, little or no emotions for anyone, no interest for anything, like I gave up from my life and just counting one miserable day after another. I can't work properly, cooking seems so hard and complicated, I don't have much capacity for my own children, making myself walk once a day ih like climbing on Everest. Would you maybe suggest a faster tapering and now exactly?

5. Last week I was sick and had back pain at the same time. Is this due to taking smaller amounths of both drugs or just a coincidence?

 

6. And the biggest question is, what if I stop sleeping again? I don't want to end up on some phy medicine again after going through such trouble of tapering them. But if I don't sleep, that makes me even more non-functional than everything else.

 

I started taking omega 3 (krill oil).

 

One important thing to mention is that I live without half of my small intestine for many years now so absorption of nutrients as well as medicines is a big question for everybody....

 

Please help me if you can, I so want to be completely functional mum for my children as i once used to be.

 

Thank you very much for all of your work!

[Onmyway]

Hi @Arian, 

welcome to SA and sorry you are going through all of this. It is impossible to tell whether the issues you experienced before were due to withdrawal (very likely given how you describe them) or whether they were a reaction to stresses in your environment. Many psychiatric issues resolve on their own after a few months if left untreated. But in general research shows that ADs are no better than placebo on average. The thing about you having bipolar is BS - these drugs are activating and the 'hypomania' that you experience is a side effect of the drugs rather than a disorder that you have. This is documented well  - look up Anatomy of an Epidemic by Robert Whitaker (or the Madinamerica website)

 

What to do right now: 

Given your multiple cocktails and starts and stops of drugs I think we should proceed very carefully coming off of these drugs. We would recommend tapering at no more than 10% every 4 weeks (you could also do the Brassmonkey slide) and we would advise that you start with escitalopram first. It is possible that tapering will impact your sleep so we want to leave the lorazepam in place.

 

How are you feeling with your recent cuts? If your symptoms are bad you can increase your doses back to the previous ones and taper slowly. 

If you are doing ok, you can stay on the current dose and power through but not change anything for a good 4-5 months. Your brain needs time to adjust. If you decide to updose, you may want to go to 15mg of escitalopram and the full dose or close to full dose of lorazepam depending on your current symptoms. Even though tapering takes a long time, it minimizes the withdrawal effects and as you come down the numbness and lack of interest in life would improve. You don't want to replace those with withdrawal symptoms, trust me. 

 

You might want to add magnesium as many here find it calming and if your sleep gets disrupted you can try using melatonin (some people find it very helpful). 

 

OMW

 

 

[Arian]

First of all, thank you for answering this fast and for existing. Your suggestions mean a lot to me since no one around me understands about this withdrawal problem at the moment. 

So, I forgot to mention that each time insomnia, anxiety and depression came back, it was more awful than the last time although stress in my life was not bigger and some biggest problems were resolved by then. First time I wanted to be around my family, the second time I was feeling fine only near kids and the third time I hid even from them. I became very sensitive to noises, bright lights... Maybe because of that we may be more sure it was a withdrawal and not just relapse?

First time (before taking medicines), I wasn't sleeping for a month. I tried many things including melatonin but nothing helped with the sleep issue and I was in such a bad place at the end of that period that I didn't know what else to do so I agreed to take drugs. I started sleeping two weeks after that. This is why I am so worried about insomnia coming back. I never wanted to start taking these drugs in the first place and now even more knowing what they do to the brain and how hard it is to get free from them.

Second time I took antidepressants as soon as insomnia started but they didn't help at all, not even after 3 months.

Third time when it all started again, I waited for 3 months before starting taking drugs but I just couldn't start sleeping no matter what I tried. At the end of this period I was so desperate knowing that antidepressants didn't help me the second time. I fear that I am not going to start sleeping ever again.

And next year when my doctor suggested that I might have "bipolar" and put me on so many drugs, I thought that my life was finished. I felt terrible reading about what "bipolar" is, I still wasn't sleeping because of azolar (aripiprazole). This lasted for 6 months. I thought that I was going crazy, not believing myself at all at that point. After stopping azolar and then sulpirid after one more month, both cold turkey, I was finally sleeping but then crying started on a regular basis, I would cry my eyes out and just felt even more equasted after that. I still cry like this. There are only 4 months since stopping antipsychotics. So it is hard for me to answer how am I feeling now after reductions when I am this bad for so many months in a row. I might be a bit more bad now but it's hard to catch it since I was already at the bottom. Two things started after the reductions - neck/back pain and cold-like symptoms. I don't know if these are because of reductions or not but both are better now. 

Good thing is that I can still sleep a lot (10-16 hours depending on that days responsibilities) but I wake up tired even after 16 hours in bed. I have very low energy, am very slow in everything I do (like a snail), even talking with my family makes me tired very soon, I don't feel pleasure in doing anything except sleeping, I am quite forgetful, my brain is like in fog...

The hardest part of the day is getting up. I am like a zobmi whenever I wake up.

But it's a big relief that I don't have "bipolar". Now I have some hope to be myself once again even if it took me a few years to get there. Diagnosis of potential "bipolar" seems to me as hell for the rest of my life...

@Onmyway So, waiting for 4-5 months is the best option for now?

I am already worried about being on lorsilan (benzo) for so long (10 months now) and fear that staying on it for at least 2 more years (after tapering first escitalopram) will do much more damage to my brain and health. Is there any alternative that might be fine and not induce more withdrawal symptoms like tapering lorsilan a little bit as well?

[Onmyway]

Hi @Arian, 

on the one hand you seem to be on too high a dose of lorazepam if you are so sluggish and sleep that much. Usually escitalopram is activating but it some cases it can have a paradoxical reaction, the problem is that since you haven't taken it on a clean slate we can't know if the escitalopram also contributes to the sluggishness. It is also hard to know what is withdrawal and what is the current drugs as withdrawal can also cause fatigue. In either case given that you lowered your doses quite substantially a couple of weeks ago and given how you already seem hypersensitive to the drug changes (each introduction made you feel bad), I'd still advise waiting for at least a month so we can evaluate your symptoms. It is not ideal to be on these drugs, I agree with you, but the reason we are all here is because withdrawal can be so much worse. I tried to quit 4 years ago and given my sensitivities will need at least another two years to get off of the tiny dose that I am on. I have accepted that unfortunately. We have no other choice

OMW

[Arian]

Yes, I understand it, thanks for explaining. I will waith and see how things are going for at least a month and then post again so that you can reevaluate my symptoms. All we need now is a lot of patience, I feel lucky to finally have solution even if it lasts for months or years. 

 

I was reading a bit the book you mentioned (Anatomy of an Epidemic), it is so sad to hear about how some people ended up because of these drugs.

 

Just one more question if anyone knows something about this: where are these drugs absorbed? In the stomach or small intestines or both?

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

 

[Onmyway]

Hi @Arian, 

I am sorry I missed that question earlier - you had asked about it - I don't know much about it. There is one paper that I could find on the topic - 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25450472/

 

I don't think it would matter while you are lowering your dose proportionally (by 10%, or 2.5% etc.) as it would also lower proportionally. I think you will be OK. I know someone here who is missing part of their colon and did not have issues but don't know anyone with small intestine issues. 

 

OMW

[Arian]

Hi @Onmyway,

 

thank you for your last answer. I also don't know anyone with partial small intestines, but it's function is different than the function od the colon. So, I always wonder am I getting all the nutrients that I am supposed to and similar things regarding apsorption... I receantly read somewhere that 90% of our serotonine is produced in out gut, I don't know what to think about that regarding me not having half of small intestines... If someone knows more about this gut connection, please share.

 

I do have another easier question.   Because of shortage of lorsilan, doctor now prescribed me temelor. They are both lorazepam but from different producers. Should I expect some problems with this switch? Many batches of lorsilan were very receantly removed from farmacies here because of some mistake in them.

 

My neck and back pain are almost gone now, similar as cold. But I had a few bad days of repetitive anxious thoughts about all this new informations, asking myself if I will have enough strength for the tapering process... Fearing what should I do if my insomnia worsenes again since I am not functional after only 2 days of that waking up all the time. I feel that it would be clever to have some idea in advance about what to do if it starts happening again so that I can react fast enough. Melatinon didn't help me in the past to stay asleep but maybe I didn't know how to use it...

[Arian]

@Onmyway @Altostrata 

 

It's been a month since I lowered escitalopram for the first time. I don't have back pain nor cold anymore, I now think that they were not related with lowering the doses. I am still sluggish, slow, very low motivated for anything, sleeping if possible at least 14 hours (best in the morning), brain foggish. Some days I am more anxious, some less (same as before reductions) so it might be just drug effects. I think that I am stable as someone can be on these drugs. What do you suggest to do now, can I try lowering the escilatopram a bit?

 

Another question, sorry if I am boring with this one. If I leave lorazepam on the current dose for at least 2 more years which is (if I figured out correctly?) time needed to get off from the first drug, won't it make much more damage and induce much more physical depence after almost 3 years on it? Now I am taking it for almost 1 year so I kind of hope that it might be easier to get of it sooner that later? Last time I stopped taking it fairly easily using GABA supplement, iz might be just a coincidence but it worked somehow. That time I was on it for 3-4 months. After quitting with it, I continued sleeping.

 

About escilatopram, I know that it acts on me in a sedating way because I take it in the morning around 9 a.m. and fall asleep even better during the next 5-6 hours. So, both od these drugs have similar effect on me. And the reason why I ended up on such a high doses for both od them was during taking aripriprazol that used to wake me up all the time. As soon as I stopped taking it, I was sleeping again and a lot. So, I probably don't need such high doses anymore when sleep is regarded? What are my options now so not to trigger withdrawal symptoms but also not to let these drugs make even more damage and dependance?

 

I just so eagerly want to be better as soon as possible so that I am more usefull to my kids and mum who is taking care of all of us for such a long time already.

 

Thank you very very much in advance!

[Altostrata]

What times o'clock do you take your drugs, with their dosages?

 

16 hours ago, Arian said:

won't it make much more damage and induce much more physical depence after almost 3 years on it? Now I am taking it for almost 1 year so I kind of hope that it might be easier to get of it sooner that later?

 

No, physical dependence on the benzo is already well established. Please don't worry about it.

[Arian]

Ok, then it's not of any difference. I'll try not to worry about it, can't promise knowing now what they do. Thanks. I asked few times my ex psy about the limit od no more than 4 weeks for lorazepam last year when I was not so long on it. She only replied "so what!".

 

I take:

9:30 a.m. 10 mg escitalopram

9:30 p.m. 3.75 mg lorazepam

 

Thanks for the advice in advance.

[Altostrata]

How long have you been taking your drugs on this schedule?

 

On 5/3/2023 at 12:09 AM, Arian said:

About escilatopram, I know that it acts on me in a sedating way because I take it in the morning around 9 a.m. and fall asleep even better during the next 5-6 hours.

 

What is your sleep schedule? 

 

How do you feel before taking escitalopram at 9 a.m.? Did you ever take it in the evening? 

[Arian]

I have been taking drugs on this schedule for 11 months. One month ago I reduced the doses for both of them (before reading about withdrawal and tapering). Escitalopram from 20 mg and lorazepam from 5 mg.

 

My sleep schedule is terrible. Most of the days, I fall asleep around 3 or 5 a.m., wake up only to take the escitalopram at 9:30 a.m. and continue sleeping till 2 or 4 p.m. Sometimes I fall asleep earlier but the next day I am back to above schedule. Lorazepam doesn't help me fall asleep for many months now but if I skip it, I can't fall asleep even longer (till 7 a.m.). I have always slept best in the morning but this is too much even for me.

 

 I am sleeping before taking escitalopram im the morning so I feel best as possible, the rest od the day when I am awake is hell. I have never tried taking it in the evening but my doctor told me to stop taking it some 6 months ago (cold turkey) and then my sleep quickly worsened to waiting up every hour or not sleeping at all so she put me back on it after not more than a week.

[Altostrata]

If I were you, I'd gradually move the escitalopram dose later by an hour each day until you are taking it in the evening.

 

Afterward, the lorazepam is not helping, you might consider very gradually tapering the dose -- paradoxically, a lower dose might be more effective than a higher dose. Then you might be able to taper the escitalopram.

[Arian]

Thank you very much for this wise advice, I'll try like that, it sounds promissing.

 

Just one more question so that I can understand what happened to me. I was looking but couldn't find it on SA. Is it known why some people have mania or hypermania after stopping with antidepressant, is there at least some theory about mechanism behind this? Thanks!

[Altostrata]

4 hours ago, Arian said:

Is it known why some people have mania or hypermania after stopping with antidepressant, is there at least some theory about mechanism behind this?

 

Not that I know of. Withdrawal mania or hypomania is well-documented.

[Arian]

Just leting you know that I managed to move escitalopram to the evening so I fall asleep much earlier then before, not later than midnight. But the last two days have been quite hard, I had even less energy than usually and usually I am around zero. Can this be because of the change with escitalopram? I am now taking both medicines in the evening.

[Altostrata]

What times o'clock do you take your drugs, with their dosages?

[Arian]

9:30 p.m. 10 mg escitalopram and 3.75 lorazepam

[Altostrata]

For what reason were you prescribed lorazepam? It doesn't appear you needed it for sleep.

 

It's very possible that lorazepam has played a large role in your daytime lethargy all along. I would consider tapering it further. @Shep will you kindly consult?

 

 

[Arian]

I was prescriped lorazepam for terrible insomnia, waking all the time and not sleeping more than maybe a hour a night when all mini sleeps add together. Also, I was at that time taking azolar which worsened my sleep even more so lorazepam was not of big use almost from the start, maybe first few weeks only. But later when I tried not taking it, I couldn't fall at sleep at all nor stay asleep long. I am going to try to taper it first as you suggested. I found a naturopath in the meantime who has some ideas how to make benzo tapering easier, especially sleep related. Because I had 3 periods in the last few years when I wasn't sleeping for 1-3 months, each time everything was worse than the last time. I just can't go through that once again, it's just too hard since I have not recovered from any of it yet. It's been acumulating for many years now, two big operations, loosing half of small intestines 12 years ago, stress about my kids health, stress about divorce, now stress because my ex still makes problems regarding kids... It's much more stress than time of recovering so the first is winning at this moment. And these medicines add their damage to my already superstimulated brain. The main problem is that stress makes me wake up all the time and not sleep well even when asleep so I get in a very bad state after only a few days of not sleeping. From that it all goes downhill. If insomnia isn't my starting reaction to too much stress, I would have never agreed to take these drugs. Regular medicines (not psy) have already done so much bad things to my health in the past that I avoid them whenever possible. For many years after loosing half of small intestines, I was quite alright if I ate a good nutrient diet and avoided any chemicals. But all that stress was too much for my organism and this fast and long lasting insomnias took me of garde. Natural remedies that I tried were of no use and I felt like I have no other choice...

[Shep]

17 hours ago, Arian said:

9:30 p.m. 10 mg escitalopram and 3.75 lorazepam

 

Arian, there's a "moderate" drug interaction with these two drugs. Please see:

 

Drug Interaction Report: lorazepam and escitalopram

 

If you feel that you're experiencing this interaction, you could separate the two drugs by two hours. 

 

On 4/14/2023 at 6:49 PM, Arian said:

One important thing to mention is that I live without half of my small intestine for many years now so absorption of nutrients as well as medicines is a big question for everybody....

 

Have you been to a holistic or functional doctor to have tests done to see if you have any nutrient deficiencies? 

 

How is your diet? Are you able to heat healthy meals and snacks? That may be difficult when you're sleeping so much and feel exhausted. 

 

11 hours ago, Arian said:

I found a naturopath in the meantime who has some ideas how to make benzo tapering easier, especially sleep related.

 

Please be careful. There are some naturopaths who are great but many of them will advise a fast taper and suggest supplements that target GABA and other neurotransmitters. We would advise tapering no faster than 10% a month off the prior month's dose (not the originally prescribed dose). 

 

Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

 

Are you able to get a prescription for a liquid formulation of lorazepam? That's the easiest way to taper.

 

 

[Arian]

Thank you, @Shep.

 

I know about that interaction, I saw the link somewhere and checked the interaction od these two medicines but didn't know what to do about it. I will try taking them 2 hours apart to see if it helps.

 

My dreaming is very strange last days. It's like not been fully asleep but also not been awake. I am aware that I dream. So, nevertheless how many hours I sleep, I still wake up tired.

 

I have been now and there to some holistic doctors that are near me but none od them knew what to do with my case except give me a few supplements for a while. I most probably have nutrient deficiencies but it's not possible to test all of it where I live. Only some, but it takes too much time to wait at hospitals and get results for each. So I even took at one point liberty to take some supplements and herb teas on my own and that helped me get off medicines but after 6 months I was in a bad place again so I think that any naturopath is better than doing it like that. They have more knowledge and experience than me since they worked with more people and spent more time learning about the remedies and all that.

 

Regarding diet, I was on a very clean and nutrient one during 8 years after loosing half of my small intestines and I was better than anyone excepted but I spent a lot od time cooking. It was better than spending time in hospital waitingrooms and not being well or eating 8 times a day and still feel hungry. But when all the stress acumulated, good diet was not enough anymore and I was not able to keep up with it. So, I eat best as I can now but it's not as strict as once when I was able to prepare it all on my own.

 

This naturopath is also advising 10% taper or less if it is too fast for you, he knows about benzos problem and has helped many people get of the phy medicines. But that part you have to do on your own as I understand it depending on waves and symptoms. What I like about this guy is that he is very transparent, explaining im details why he suggests this or that. I got many pages from him with explanations regarding diet, supplements, exercises and some other things that can help with sleep issues that I am still reading. My only concern is will I be able to implement it all or at least most of it in this condition. I have some help but it is still much to do on a daily bases... 

 

As I see it, anything that I manage to implement from his suggestions can only help, it is all natural. And I don't have much better option. I can choose from this or getting of the drugs without help from these remedies which can only be harder and longer. I might at least try to give my brain some needed nutrients to help it in the process of regeneration. Only logical to me is that you can't build the house without the bricks. That's why I am willing to be an experimental bunny and see how it goes. Also, I can't be in a much worse condition than I am now.

 

I will let you know how it all goes if it can be of any help to others.

 

I will ask about the liquid lorazepam, thanks for reminding me about that.

[Shep]

Here is a thread that may be helpful if you decide to bring in supplements, herbs, etc. Doing so one at a time -- and not when you're making drug reductions -- is important. One change at a time is a good rule to go by. Please see:

 

The rule of 3KIS: Keep it simple. Keep it slow. Keep it stable.

[Arian]

Thanks for the link, I read it. The plan is to introduce the natural supplements first and gradually and when they are all introduced than start with tapering lorazepam so that brain has what is needed to rebuild. He also warned me about this:

 

"When people introduce these essential nutrients, what can happen is that biological systems that were under-functioning due to a lack of the nutrient suddenly begin to fire-up into action when the deficiency is eliminated. Occasionally this will cause what we call a healing-crisis or healing aggravation, this can take various forms from headaches to spots on the skin is the body detoxifies, unfortunately all too often a healing reaction will temporarily aggravate the very symptoms you’re trying to treat.

 

Let me just be absolutely clear that none of the supplements in this prescription will cause any further damage to your brain, any worsening of symptoms is not a worsening of the health of your brain, it’s not further damage it’s just a temporary wave of symptoms caused by under-functioning systems in the brain firing up. In a benzo-affected brain the lack of GABA inhibition can make this experience very unpleasant and even scary, but remember eliminating deficiencies is an essential process to go through. Do not confuse a healing reaction with a harmful effect, these remedies are only stimulating healing in your brain.

 

What we can do is introduce the supplements gradually, starting with a very low dose and increasing the dosage every few days, a reverse taper. The other thing we can do is include from an early stage supplements that have calming and anti-inflammatory effects to help control and avoid a healing reaction."

 

I hope it will work. I know from before that people tend to react like this when they are changing diet (eliminating gluten for example) or introducing probiotics. I went through that with my son when he had intestinal dysbiosis. Every time when we gave him a bit bigger dose of that probiotic, he had worsening of his symptoms for a few days (eczemas and diarrhea). It took us 6 months to come to the therapeutic dose of only 3 spoons and then reactions stopped and his symptoms got much better. So, I only need to have a lot of patience again.

[Shep]

@Arian The only two supplements that we've seen reliably help many people are fish oil and magnesium. We don't recommend a lot of supplements, as many members report their nervous systems are simply too fragile to handle them. However, magnesium and fish oil tend to be calming to the nervous system and many people report they do help. Please only add in one supplement at a time and at a small dose. For more, please see:

 

 King of supplements: Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil)

 

Magnesium, nature's calcium channel blocker

 

 

Unfortunately, we aren't going to be able to assist you in tapering lorazepam while you are introducing multiple supplements such as what your prescriber is offering. This is beyond what an online peer support site can provide. Please work carefully with your prescriber to manage your taper. One concept I will point out is the importance of only introducing one supplement at a time and at a low dose. This thread explains why:

 

The rule of 3KIS: Keep it simple. Keep it slow. Keep it stable.

 

You may also want to keep a drug / supplement and symptoms journal. Here is how to do this:

 

Keep a drug and symptoms journal

 

Again, adding in these kinds of supplements to manage a benzo taper is not something we can assist you with, but I would encourage you to read these links and see if they are useful tools in navigating your journey off this drug. 

 

[jipavl]

On 5/23/2023 at 6:55 PM, Arian said:

As I see it, anything that I manage to implement from his suggestions can only help, it is all natural.

Be careful with supplements. If a supplement is to have any effect at all, it has to contain an active ingredient, being natural or not. And some of these ingredients can be problematic. It is better to do your own research before taking anything. Just because a supplement is proclaimed to be "natural" does not mean it is harmless.

 

Some of the supplements act on GABA receptors, which can be problematic, since you are already on a benzo. For example, it was once recommended to me to use magnolia bark. I found that it's active ingredient - magnolol, works on GABA receptors.

[Arian]

@jipavl, did you investigate how exactly does magnolia bark work on GABA receptors? Maybe it isn't in the same way that benzos do. There are some natural remedies that stimulate the brain to manufacture GABA by itself. Not all natural remedies even bind to the receptor site, they can make effects through completely different mechanisms otherthan binding to the receptor site and even supstances that do attach to the receptor site do not nesesarilly do it in the same way as benzos. Beznos so rapidly and aggresively cause desensitisation of the synapses, I think that it's a mistake to think that all natural remedies will do anything like that.

 

Opinion from my naturopath that I think one also has to be aware of:

"There is a particularly unfortunate phenomenon I have been observing for the last few years which is the combination of anxiety spectrum disorders and the Internet especially forums and chat rooms where people with anxiety share their worries with other people that are anxious and hypervigilant about threats, and it just takes one person to write a convincing argument that let’s say a herbal agonist could work like benzo and then other people with anxiety will repeat and copy and repeat and copy it until it’s all over the Internet which makes it seem like it’s more important because everyone seems to be saying it, and then it appears to be a factual truth and the whole thing is created or driven by the anxious psychology."

 

For example vitamin B12:

"I’ve seen people say don’t take B12 if you are on a benzo withdrawal I took it and it revs you up making the anxiety worse, but you shouldn’t take B12 on its own and for another person in another context B12 being one of the methylating vitamins could calm down inflammation and assist their individual healing process especially if they have the MTHFR gene mutation. "

[Onmyway]

@Arianseems like your naturopath is talking out off their a££ also throwing in a MTHFR mutation in the mix a common naturopath buzzword. B- vitamins do tend to rev people up in withdrawal and unless someone is deficient or is vegan/ vegetarian and doesn't get enough in their diet there is no need to take it as a supplement. Most common MTHFR gene mutations lower absorption of folate by less than 20% - if i were you I'd ask to see your naturopath's qualifications at this time. A deficiency in b12 is very easy to measure and if you have absorption issues you'd get it as an injecting. You may want to search for #naturopath# here to see how some of these can go very wrong especially after people have spent tons of money on naturopaths. They don't understand withdrawal any better than psychiatry. 

 

If you trust your naturopath,  by all means,  please keep working with them.  We hope you find healing there.  We will not be able to help you if their advice causes you issues. We will also not argue his advice with you any more. 

 

Good luck.

Omw

Edited May 26, 2023 by Onmyway

[Arian]

I also thought previously that lack of folate is only related with this genetic mutation but I found these explanations:

 

"MTHFR stands for methylenetetrahydrofolate reductase. It is a genetic mutation, and approximately 30% of the population worldwide has it. The mutation affects the ability of the body to turn vitamin B12 and folate into forms the body can utilize."

 

"Imbalances in folate-methylation metabolism have received a lot of interest as more people learn about the MTHFR gene mutation but folate is only one part of the complex interconnected methylation metabolic system and there are several other nutrients required to run the system including B12. "

 

I don't have a half of small intestines so my absorption of nutrients is compromised for sure.

 

Best regards and thanks for all the help.

[Arian]

Is it possible to get drug induced psychosis when geting off small dose of lorazepam or geting off escitalopram? I did a mistake in lowering both of them and after only few days got something like mania or psychosis or mix of too, I am not even sure now what it actualy was.