BillDz Need help to stabilize my diazepam intake and start tapering

[BillDz]

Hello ;

Excuse my English. It's not my first language.

 

I am new to this forum and need your help to stabilize my dose of diazepam before starting the withdrawal process. Indeed, I was on a benzo in tablets called Lysanxia (long half-life) and I recently asked my doctor to prescribe me diazepam (in drops, it is more practical to use). I used an equivalence chart and today I end up with 23 drops of diazepam in the morning and 14 in the evening. I didn't do any progressive crossovers. The doctor decided that it was not necessary. It's been 4 days since I made the switch but I have new symptoms (tachycardia all day, shortness of breath, nausea and anxiety).

 

I specify that I was not really stable with the old molecule (Lysanxia-Prazepam) before making the switch to diazepam.

 

I'm afraid I'm diazepam intolerant because it's the only option I have to do a slow and gradual withdrawal. 

 

Could someone please help me stabilize my dose?

 

THANKS.

[Altostrata]

Welcome, @BillDz

 

On 7/24/2023 at 5:56 AM, BillDz said:

I specify that I was not really stable with the old molecule (Lysanxia-Prazepam) before making the switch to diazepam.

 

 

If you have developed these new symptoms after a switch to diazepam, if I were you, I'd go back t prazepam. Will your prescriber continue your prescription?

 

These conversions from one benzo to another often have to be done gradually, not all at once, or you can get withdrawal from the first benzo while waiting for the second to take effect. @Shep @Frogie please confer.

 

To help us out, follow these instructions Please summarize your drug and withdrawal history in your signature You may need to use a computer to do this.

[BillDz]

8 hours ago, Altostrata said:

Welcome, @BillDz

Thanks @Altostrata

 

If you have developed these new symptoms after a switch to diazepam, if I were you, I'd go back t prazepam. Will your prescriber continue your prescription?

I don't want to go back to Prazepam because there is no liquid version. Prazepam is not soluble in water. Impossible to do a gradual decrease. It is only available in 10 Mg tablets

 

These conversions from one benzo to another often have to be done gradually, not all at once, or you can get withdrawal from the first benzo while waiting for the second to take effect. @Shep @Frogie please confer.

 

To help us out, follow these instructions Please summarize your drug and withdrawal history in your signature You may need to use a computer to do this. Done

[Shep]

3 hours ago, BillDz said:

I don't want to go back to Prazepam because there is no liquid version. Prazepam is not soluble in water. Impossible to do a gradual decrease. It is only available in 10 Mg tablets

 

Welcome to Surviving Antidepressants, Bill. 

 

Please note you can do a slow taper off a tablet, so if possible, I agree with Altostrata that it would be best to go back to prazepam. To decrease a tablet, you can use a scale. Please see:

 

Using a scale to weigh and measure doses

 

The best way to reduce is by 10% or less per month, based on the prior month's dose (not the originally prescribed dose):

 

Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

 

Please post your thoughts on returning to prazepam. If your current doctor won't continue to prescribe it, is there another doctor in your area who will? If you're able to make the crossover back within the next week, that would be best. These types of changes are best done within 1 or 2 weeks because then your nervous system starts to adapt to the new benzo, while at the same time, you're going into withdrawal from the previous benzo, which may or may not be covered by the new benzo. 

[Frogie]

I agree with @Shep and @Altostrata. It would be est to go back to prazepam. Since you did this such a short period ago.

 

 

[BillDz]

Thank you @Altostrata @Frogie @Shep

 

What if I try to gradually reintroduce the Prazepam by decreasing the diazepam. I stabilize prazepam withdrawal symptoms and then gradually increase diazepam over a few weeks using Ashton's method. Maybe there will be fewer symptoms this time around. Or is it dangerous to do it this way?
I say that because I want to taper using a liquid solution. It is more precise and only diazepam is available in this form. I already tried to decrease prazepam using water but it didn't work. The tablet is not soluble. Using a precision balance? it can't work because the active molecule is not proportionally distributed in the tablet (10 Mg tablet)

[Shep]

6 hours ago, BillDz said:

What if I try to gradually reintroduce the Prazepam by decreasing the diazepam. I stabilize prazepam withdrawal symptoms and then gradually increase diazepam over a few weeks using Ashton's method. Maybe there will be fewer symptoms this time around. Or is it dangerous to do it this way?

 

Switching back and forth like this could lead to kindling your nervous system. Kindling is trauma to the nervous system. 

 

Hypersensitivity and Kindling

 

If you decide to go back to prazepam and you're able to stabilize, I'm not sure I'd go back to diazepam. That adds an additional risk. 

 

6 hours ago, BillDz said:

Using a precision balance? it can't work because the active molecule is not proportionally distributed in the tablet (10 Mg tablet)

 

Please note this post by moderator Brassmonkey (who's an expert at using a scale) from the Using a scale thread:

 

On 3/29/2019 at 1:41 AM, brassmonkey said:

The way the tablets are manufactured the ai is very evenly distributed in the filler. So when you crush them out is still evenly distributed in the powder. If there is a coating on the tablet it could throw the mix off by a miniscule amount. 

 

Many people find using a scale to work very well for these drugs. 

 

So it's not necessary to go on diazepam solely for the reason of thinking you must use a liquid formula. 

 

Either way is fine, but do be careful that you're not jumping around from benzo to benzo. Pick one that you feel you can stabilize on. 

[Terry]

@BillDz  I've been tapering alprazolam (Xanax) for 20 months making a dilution from a tablet.  I use a small measure of vodka to dissolve it and water to make the dilution I need.  So far, it has worked fine.  The commercial liquid contains polyethylene glycol, which can have some ill effects.

Best wishes for a smooth taper.

Terry

[Terry]

@brassmonkey How are you feeling?  I hope the breathing problem is starting to resolve. If you don't feel up to answering my questions,that's OK, they're not urgent.

 

Perhaps I shouldn't ask, but whatever happened to the End-Game taper?  I used it for tapering off sertraline in 2021, and would like to use it again for my alprazolam taper.  I'm just not sure at what point to start.  Should it work for a benzo the same way as an AD? 

[BillDz]

On 7/30/2023 at 11:27 PM, Shep said:

 

Switching back and forth like this could lead to kindling your nervous system. Kindling is trauma to the nervous system. 

 

Hypersensitivity and Kindling

 

If you decide to go back to prazepam and you're able to stabilize, I'm not sure I'd go back to diazepam. That adds an additional risk. 

 

 

Please note this post by moderator Brassmonkey (who's an expert at using a scale) from the Using a scale thread:

 

 

Many people find using a scale to work very well for these drugs. 

 

So it's not necessary to go on diazepam solely for the reason of thinking you must use a liquid formula. 

 

Either way is fine, but do be careful that you're not jumping around from benzo to benzo. Pick one that you feel you can stabilize on. 

I went back to prazepam. I can't take diazepam anymore. you think i'm at risk of seizure even though both have the same metabolite *nordiazepam*? I start to panic. what should i do now please?

[brassmonkey]

I'm still pretty rough but seeing some small improvements. More tests this afternoon.

 

Managing the Endgame Taper - Tapering - Surviving Antidepressants

 

It had a rewrite a few years ago, so I had to change the name. It's written for ADs, but should work for benzos too.

[Terry]

@brassmonkey Thank you for posting this. Hope your tests today result in a positive outcome for your health.

[BillDz]

On 7/28/2023 at 11:12 AM, Shep said:

 

Welcome to Surviving Antidepressants, Bill. 

 

Please note you can do a slow taper off a tablet, so if possible, I agree with Altostrata that it would be best to go back to prazepam. To decrease a tablet, you can use a scale. Please see:

 

Using a scale to weigh and measure doses

 

The best way to reduce is by 10% or less per month, based on the prior month's dose (not the originally prescribed dose):

 

Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

 

Please post your thoughts on returning to prazepam. If your current doctor won't continue to prescribe it, is there another doctor in your area who will? If you're able to make the crossover back within the next week, that would be best. These types of changes are best done within 1 or 2 weeks because then your nervous system starts to adapt to the new benzo, while at the same time, you're going into withdrawal from the previous benzo, which may or may not be covered by the new benzo. 

@Shep

 

Day 2 after reverting to prazepam   flu like symptoms + insomnia + headache +anxiety.  Fatigue and shortness of breath decreased, a little less for tachycardia.  I hope this diazepam didn't do a lot of damage to me. 

 

[Shep]

13 hours ago, BillDz said:

I went back to prazepam. I can't take diazepam anymore. you think i'm at risk of seizure even though both have the same metabolite *nordiazepam*? I start to panic. what should i do now please?

 

Do you have a seizure disorder? Is that why you starting taking benzos? If you don't have a seizure disorder, seizures are extremely rare from coming off these drugs while doing a taper. Seizures are a concern for a cold turkey, but you're still on a benzo. And diazepam has a really long half life (up to 200 hours which is 8 days), so a lot of that drug is still in your system and will be for a long time. It takes about 1400 hours (58 days) for diazepam to completely leave your system depending on how quickly you metabolize it. You can track this yourself in a drug half-life calculator:

 

Drug Half-Life Calculator

 

 

2 hours ago, BillDz said:

Day 2 after reverting to prazepam   flu like symptoms + insomnia + headache +anxiety.  Fatigue and shortness of breath decreased, a little less for tachycardia.  I hope this diazepam didn't do a lot of damage to me. 

 

Please note it can take about 4 days for the nervous system to register a change and a week or more to adjust. 

 

Are the flu like symptoms, insomnia, headache, and anxiety all new symptoms? Did you have any of these symptoms when you were on prazepam before switching to diazepam? 

 

[BillDz]

2 hours ago, Shep said:

Quote

Do you have a seizure disorder? Is that why you starting taking benzos? If you don't have a seizure disorder, seizures are extremely rare from coming off these drugs while doing a taper. Seizures are a concern for a cold turkey, but you're still on a benzo. And diazepam has a really long half life (up to 200 hours which is 8 days), so a lot of that drug is still in your system and will be for a long time. It takes about 1400 hours (58 days) for diazepam to completely leave your system depending on how quickly you metabolize it. You can track this yourself in a drug half-life calculator:

 

Drug Half-Life Calculator

 

I don't. Prescribed benzo and an AD for panic attacks.

 

Quote

Please note it can take about 4 days for the nervous system to register a change and a week or more to adjust. 

 

Are the flu like symptoms, insomnia, headache, and anxiety all new symptoms? Did you have any of these symptoms when you were on prazepam before switching to diazepam?

 

Before switching to diazepam, I had mild insomnia and mild anxiety maye due to my AD cold-turkey last year. Now I'm in a constant state of agitation. I slept only 2 hours today. I was awakened by a strong tachycardia. Can't fall asleep again. 

I hope I haven't developed a dependance to this poison.

 

 

@Shep Can I use some beta blockers to calm down the tachycardia ? 

 

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by BillDz

[BillDz]

@Shep @Terry @Altostrata I have a serious erectile dysfunction since the first day I took diazepam. Is it reversible?

[Shep]

23 hours ago, BillDz said:

 

 

@Shep Can I use some beta blockers to calm down the tachycardia ? 

 

 

 

On 8/2/2023 at 2:36 AM, BillDz said:

Fatigue and shortness of breath decreased, a little less for tachycardia.

 

Why would you want to add more drugs when you reported that the tachycardia was "a little less"? 

 

Do you have a heart condition? Something that's unrelated to withdrawal? Or is this solely a withdrawal issue? If that symptom is decreasing, I wouldn't add in more drugs, especially if you don't have a pre-existing heart issue.

 

If this is a symptom that you think is unrelated to withdrawal, please get checked out by a doctor to rule out any problems. 

 

20 hours ago, BillDz said:

@Shep @Terry @Altostrata I have a serious erectile dysfunction since the first day I took diazepam. Is it reversible?

 

That sounds like a side effect, which is not uncommon for these drugs. Yes, these types of symptoms improve with time. 

[BillDz]

@Shep 

Thank you very much for your advice. am I at risk of being dependent on diazepam now even though i used it for not even 10 days? 

 

I went back to my Prazepam but noticed a very high level of anxiety, high heart rate. Do I have to come back on diazepam ?

[Shep]

@BillDz It's best to look at your OVERALL symptom pattern. I would not continue switching from one benzo to another because it takes time for your nervous system to even out. Like I wrote earlier in your thread, diazepam has a very long half life of up to 200 hours (8 days), so it's still in your system. Some of your symptoms are likely side effects, in addition to withdrawal. As you noted in your signature: "Serious Adverse reaction to diazepam."

 

Please add the date to your signature for this part:

 

Quote

Went back on Prazepam (Benzo) : 15 mg/Day

 

A direct link to your signature is here:

 

Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature

 

[BillDz]

Ok. Thank you @Shep

[BillDz]

Hello @Shep

 

Since stopping paroxetine, I'm suffering from throat tightness and insomnia. When I tried to wean myself off benzodiazepines, things got a little worse. Am I in tolerance with benzos? If not, when can I begin a second attempt at benzo withdrawal? Can I use pills and a liquid solution of the same molecule (prazepam) at the same time ?

 

🙏

[Shep]

19 hours ago, BillDz said:

Since stopping paroxetine, I'm suffering from throat tightness and insomnia.

 

Those are common symptoms of SSRI and benzo withdrawal. You came off paroxetine in November 2022. Have any of those symptoms resolved or decreased in intensity? It may be hard to tell since you also are dealing with benzos. 

 

19 hours ago, BillDz said:

When I tried to wean myself off benzodiazepines, things got a little worse. Am I in tolerance with benzos?

 

 

Yes, you may have developed tolerance to benzos. You've been on them long enough. And you may also be dealing with kindling, as noted earlier in your thread. 

 

19 hours ago, BillDz said:

Can I use pills and a liquid solution of the same molecule (prazepam) at the same time ?

 

Yes. Some people like to take part of their dose in tablet and part in liquid and use the liquid part to make their reductions. 

 

I'm not sure this answers your question, though. Are you talking about combining prazepam pills with another type of benzo liquid formula that has the same metabolite as prazepam but is a different benzo? 

 

 

[BillDz]

On 9/9/2023 at 11:51 AM, Shep said:

es. Some people like to take part of their dose in tablet and part in liquid and use the liquid part to make their reductions. 

 

I'm not sure this answers your question, though. Are you talking about combining prazepam pills with another type of benzo liquid formula that has the same metabolite as prazepam but is a different benzo?

 

No. I rather combine the tablets with the liquid formula of the same benzo (prazepam). 

 

The problem is that my throat tightness symptom is becoming more and more debilitating, especially when I drive. Sometimes it triggers spectacular panic attacks when I feel like I can no longer swallow or breathe. I also feel weird and scary sensations in my tongue (my tongue is completely white).
I'm not sure if I should stop benzo withdrawal while waiting for the symptoms to stabilize. I believe my CNS is very destabilized due to stopping paroxetine Cold Turkey and the various changes on benzos.
Any advice please.

[BillDz]

@Shep @Altostrata @brassmonkey

 

Can you please take a look at the previous post?

[Altostrata]

If you are taking a benzo to control symptoms from paroxetine withdrawal, why are you decreasing the benzo?

 

You have been taking a benzo daily since at May 2003. You have been physiologically dependent on benzos for 20 years.

[BillDz]

Symptoms after stopping the antidepressant were not disabling. That’s why I thought it was time to start weaning off the benzo. Since then, things have gotten worse. I have stopped weaning for the moment while waiting for stabilization. The symptom that bothers me the most is this constant feeling of strangulation and suffocation. sleep has improved a little.

[LotusRising]

@BillDz

 

When did you last make a reduction? Are you still on 15mg of prazepam? Could you update your signature please, if there are any changes.

 

3 hours ago, BillDz said:

I have stopped weaning for the moment while waiting for stabilization

 

This sounds like a good idea. In reading through your thread, it looks like the throat symptom was getting better and then started to get worse when you started tapering the benzo? If this is the case, you are likely making things worse by continuing to reduce. Are you experiencing any other symptoms?

 

You might want to read through these links:

 

Stability

 

Keep it simple, slow and stable

 

The Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

[BillDz]

@LotusRising

 

On 11/10/2023 at 6:10 PM, LotusRising said:

When did you last make a reduction? Are you still on 15mg of prazepam? Could you update your signature please, if there are any changes.

 

The symptoms became so debilitating that I increased my dose to 20 mg.

 

On 11/10/2023 at 6:10 PM, LotusRising said:

 

This sounds like a good idea. In reading through your thread, it looks like the throat symptom was getting better and then started to get worse when you started tapering the benzo? If this is the case, you are likely making things worse by continuing to reduce. Are you experiencing any other symptoms?

 

Certainly, I am encountering additional symptoms such as disrupted sleep, neck pain, nausea, a recurrence of agoraphobia and panic attacks, and an unexplained fear—particularly upon waking up and while driving. Furthermore, I am also experiencing peculiar sensations in my jaw and tongue.

[LotusRising]

@BillDz

 

When did you updose? You have what looks like Jan 10, 2023 - did you mean Nov 10? How are you doing now?

[BillDz]

15 minutes ago, LotusRising said:

@BillDz

 

When did you updose? You have what looks like Jan 10, 2023 - did you mean Nov 10? How are you doing now?

 

I updosed on October 1, 2023. I'm not feeling very well. My worst symptom is this choking feeling and pain in my throat. I don't know if and when things will get back to normal so that I can begin my withdrawal from the benzo. Going to work is becoming more and more difficult.

[LotusRising]

That was a large updose - did any symptoms get worse/better?

 

I don't know if it's reassuring at all, but I experienced the same symptom periodically and the intensity has decreased substantially over time. Distraction was key for me, and I also found that chewing gum or sucking on candies helped because it forced me to swallow more often, which I found reassuring.

[BillDz]

16 hours ago, LotusRising said:

That was a large updose - did any symptoms get worse/better?

 

Yes, I sleep a little better. Panic attacks are less common.

16 hours ago, LotusRising said:

That was a large updose - did any symptoms get worse/better?

 

I don't know if it's reassuring at all, but I experienced the same symptom periodically and the intensity has decreased substantially over time

 

Can you please describe in detail what you felt in your throat and tongue? How long did it take for this symptom to start to improve?

[LotusRising]

1 hour ago, BillDz said:

Can you please describe in detail what you felt in your throat and tongue? How long did it take for this symptom to start to improve?

My throat feels like it's closing, but I can still swallow. The sensation is of pressure and it actually moves all over my body - the throat is just one area. The only thing I've noticed on my tongue is a slight burning/tingling sensation. I don't think it would help you to know how long it lasted for me, as we're all so different. I can tell you though, that it happens rarely now and for shorter periods of time.

[BillDz]

I do not understand anything anymore. I feel like the benzo I'm taking is no longer having any effect on me.

I am becoming more and more anxious and depressed. Many physical symptoms, the latest being irritable bowel syndrome.

Panic attacks become more violent and last longer.

Could benzos be the cause of my problems?

[LotusRising]

@BillDz

 

You've made numerous changes to your benzo for a number months, so stabilizing on the benzo could take time. You also updosed recently when you were already destabilized, which doesn't always work for some people. Unfortunately, with each increase, tolerance is always a possibility. 

 

When did you start becoming more anxious and depressed?

 

On 11/14/2023 at 5:39 AM, BillDz said:

Yes, I sleep a little better. Panic attacks are less common.

 

When did panic attacks become worse? You said this ^ just recently.

 

Yes, the "IBS" symptoms could be related to the benzo. People are diagnosed with all sorts of illnesses/conditions, which resolve after they stop taking the drug. 

[BillDz]

38 minutes ago, LotusRising said:

@BillDz

 

You've made numerous changes to your benzo for a number months, so stabilizing on the benzo could take time. You also updosed recently when you were already destabilized, which doesn't always work for some people. Unfortunately, with each increase, tolerance is always a possibility. 

 

When did you start becoming more anxious and depressed?

 

It's been a few days. Winter weather increases my anxiety and depression to the point where I'm afraid to leave the house.

39 minutes ago, LotusRising said:

When did panic attacks become worse? You said this ^ just recently.

 

It's more of a feeling of fear and permanent agitation, especially when I'm driving the car, with a worsening of physical symptoms (throat closing).