Basildev - Tapering off SSRIs

[basildev]

Thanks Jemima,

 

I had a little nap this afternoon actually.

 

Even before tapering I have needed 10 hours sleep to function for many years now, which is why I decided to come off the meds in the first place.

 

I think it's pretty odd to need that much sleep. I even had a sleep test which showed no significant problems other than grinding my teeth.

 

I feel blessed that I actually CAN sleep reading all the horror withdrawal stories, including yours.

 

Thanks for your help:)

[strawberry17]

Don't complain about the sleep! most of us here WISH we could sleep 10 hours or even 6-8 hours conistently every night

[basildev]

I hear ya:)

[basildev]

Hi everyone,

 

Thought I'd provide an update about my progress and subsequent setback.

 

Since I have switched to decaf on December, I have had no noticeable withdrawal symptoms to speak of. Everything was going along swimmingly - until something happened the Friday before last.

 

Something very disturbing happened with my business and had me in catastrophising mode for nearly a week. During that time I slept fitfully and woke early in the morning 4AM, unable to get back to sleep. This was understandable as I was highly anxious - that is to say, it was situational anxiety.

 

Anyway that all got sorted out last Thursday - and after a week of bad sleep I was looking forward to things getting back to normal and getting a good night's sleep.

 

Only it didn't happen - each night I fall asleep fine, get up to go to the toilet a couple of times during the night (normal for me) but when I wake at 4AM I can't get back to sleep!

 

Even though I'm not anxious any more (I feel fine except for the comparitive lack of sleep) I just can't seem to shake this problem. I'm wondering if the withdrawal has finally caught up with me. So I've updosed to 12mg.

 

I'm really at a loss as to what's going on!

 

It's like I've hit a switch and my sleep cycle has been permanently damaged:)

[peggy]

Hi Basil, what dose were you on before you updosed to 12mg? Sometimes a 'neuro response' is an indication that we have gone too far too fast - by neuro response, I mean our reaction to a situation is far greater than is warranted. I know that feeling.

 

I hope you settle quickly, Basil

[Altostrata]

Don't beat yourself up because you updosed 0.5mg! I hope you get a good result. Please let us know.

[basildev]

Hey Peggy,

 

I was on 11 mg. Was just about to drop to 10mg.

 

Had I done that, it would have meant a drop to half dose in 4 months. That works out to 25% per month which is probably too high. Maybe I got a bit cocky.

 

So are you saying that my 'neuro-response' is to become a little bit obsessed with my sleeping pattern and as a result create a self-fulfilling prophecy? I can't work out whether it's a physiological issue or a mind-over-matter issue. But sure enough each day I wake at the same time, unable to go back to sleep.

[basildev]

Alto,

 

thanks for your words of support. Maybe I was going too fast anyway. I've heard that the wd symptoms can kind of catch up to you around the 5 month mark.

 

It's been 4 months for me. Do you think it's a withdrawal symptom I'm experiencing or have I just talked myself into waking up each morning at this time?

[Altostrata]

I can't imagine how you could talk yourself into waking up at 4 a.m.

 

The 4 a.m. wake time is very common when we are sensitized by withdrawal. It must be the beginning of the morning cortisol cycle, and the sky is just getting lighter then. Is your bedroom darkened with blackout shades, etc.?

[basildev]

It's not pitch black but certainly dark enough.

 

At 4AM it's dark outside. Well at least if I know it's withdrawal I can always go up a dose.

 

Alto, I tried your idea of taking 25mg of L-argitine before bed and 12.5mg on waking at 4AM but it made no difference.

 

Do you think increasing the dose might help?

 

I'm also going to get some melatonin. Almost impossible to get it here in Aus. The only site I could find that would ship to Aus was Dr. Mercola's which contains 1.5mg per dose. Not ideal but the best I could do.

[Altostrata]

Your body can sense any little amount of light. Are you using a sleep mask?

 

No, I wouldn't increase the arginine. I was taking less than a milligram, a tiny smidgen! Less might be better.

[basildev]

no but I think it might me time to invest in one.

[basildev]

Hi everyone,

 

I'm deeply ashamed to tell you that after nearly 2 weeks of awful insomnia, I updosed to the full 20mg.

 

I just couldn't take it any more. I chickened out and I know I should have tried to be patient but my whole world literally crumbles when I'm sleep deprived and I got so scared that I'll never sleep properly again.

 

Had a crap sleep last night and now I'm scared I'll never stabilise. (serves me right for being so cocky).

 

Its been 4 months since I started tapering. The insomnia was the only debilitating symptom I had in that whole time.

 

Anyway I'm not proud of this post and am only posting so you can have this experience as part of your research.

 

Sorry I let the team down (and myself)(:

[peggy]

Aw Bas, please don't be ashamed - i have been there and done EXACTLY the same thing. Even last week when i updosed i went from 14 to 18mg when i could have probably just gone to 16mg. Although the first time i updosed i went up to 75!!! - I think it takes a while to get confidence that a little updose will work. I have been reducing for 18months now and have had to go up 3 times in that period - usually about every 6 months it catches up with me. I am learning to take it slow. Take some time to stabilise and then go again a little more slowly.

[basildev]

Thanks Peg:)

 

It means a lot to know I'm not the only one

 

I'm just really worried that, since I've been tapering for 4 months and even though I've gone back to my original dose it's 'too late' and I'll never regain my old sleeping patterns.

 

Does updosing work the same way as reinstatement - that it doesn't work after a window of time?

 

That's what I'm scared of.

[Narcissus]

Almost all of us here have had to updose at some point or another. Sometimes it's the most logical thing to do. It does sometimes feel like a failure, but it shouldn't. Hang in there.

[basildev]

thanks pgd:)

[peggy]

Basil, I am sure your sleeping will settle quickly...try not to allow those thoughts to have validity - they are only thoughts

[basildev]

thanks

[dalsaan]

I have always had to updose when my insomnia has been extreme. It is the only thing I can do. I try to keep the updose small but I empathize with the desperation of sleep deprivation. There is a reason they use it as a technique of torture.

 

Sometimes my ipdoses have worked straight away, sometimes it's taken a while and sometimes the improvement hasn't been great but enough

 

I doubt you would be hard on me or anyone else that has done the same thing. Treat yourself with the same kindness and understanding. The benefits of your decision may be gradual rather than coming in one hit but I'm sure they will come

 

Take care

 

Dalsaan

[Jemima]

Please do get a sleep mask and use it faithfully. You'd be surpised at how very little light it takes to awaken a person, especially at the same time cortisol reaches its peak in our bodies.

 

I've been having trouble with my sleep for the past few months, waking at around 4:30 AM and unable to go back to sleep. I thought I was over the morning cortisol problem months ago so it took a while to dawn on me that it might be reoccurring. I started using the mask again and now I can sleep until seven or so with no problem. I also started using Phosphatidyl-Serine, 100 mg. at lunch and dinner as a "backup", but I really think the mask is doing the heavy lifting. (I will probably discontinue the supplement as soon as I run out, since it's quite expensive).

 

The sleep mask is such a cheap and easy solution, it's really worth a try.

[Altostrata]

I have high hopes for the glycine I've started to take when I wake in the wee hours. So far, so good, for a couple of nights.

[basildev]

Thanks Dalsaan.

 

I feel a little less like a total loser now:)Day 3 of taking the full dose now and still no relief.

 

Jemima, thanks for your input - I have ordered a sleep mask and it is on its way as we speak. But even if I do manage to keep the light out I ALWAYS wake up at least twice a night to go to the toilet. I think it's my bladder that wakes me up truthfully. I've also ordered 'Seriphos' (PS) but it comes in 1000mg caps - I guess I should start small.

 

Alto - I'll have a look at glycene. So far I have 3 remedies on their way to me - melatonin, seriphos and lactium.

 

Think I'll start with the melatonin before bed and lactium when I wake up.

 

Thanks for your help and support everyone

[peggy]

Hi there Basil

 

Try to be patient - an updose for me would take a few weeks to have a full effect - i would get snippets of relief earlier than that but the 'ah, I'm better now' was usually 4 weeks.

 

Sending some sleepytime vibes for you tonight

[basildev]

thank you soooo much xx

[tezza]

Hi Basil,

 

Same for me as with Peggy, it took me a few weeks to notice any big improvement.

 

May you feel much better soon!

 

Love,

Tezza

[basildev]

Thank you Tezza x

[peggy]

how are you doing basil?

[strawberry17]

Hi Basildev

I've only just caught up with your thread again, I hope you're NOT still beating yourself up about the reinstatement. Many of us here have had to reinstate and start again at one time or another. It always took me a few weeks to get back on an even keel again, hopefully you're seeing some improvement now, has the sleep mask arrived?

strawberry

[basildev]

Hey Strawberry,

 

thanks for your kind words:)

 

The sleep mask did arrive, I tried it for one night but it was pretty uncomfortable (because I'm a stomach sleeper).

 

It didn't stop me waking early so I've stopped using it. Currently I'm taking 1mg melatonin and just took about 1 gram of glycine last night when I woke at 2.30AM and it only took me an hour to get back to sleep.

 

Some nights are better than others.

 

I'm not beating myself up Stawb, but I'm really going to think long and hard as to whether I want to taper again. To me, nothing (and I mean NOTHING) is more important than sleep.

 

I see all these posts from you guys who are getting 0-4 hours per night sleep and have been doing this for many ears. This is just something I really don't think I could handle. It's bad enough for a couple of weeks, I just can't imagine doing it for years on end.

 

At the end of the day, I have to weigh up the dangers of staying on the meds versus the potential dangers of coming off them and potentially never sleeping properly again. Right now it's about a 50/50 thing for me.

 

So that's where I'm at right now.

 

Thanks for caring:)

[Meimeiquest]

Hi Basil,

 

I haven't read your whole thread, but your report of waking twice in the night triggered me. I thought I was doing that because I wasn't sleeping well, but it was from sleep apnea. Low oxygen levels can make you urinate. Changed my world! Just a thought. Best, Meimeiquest

[peggy]

Basil, you are still in that 'just updosed' fragile state where all you want is to feel stable again - that will pass and I am sure you will want to begin tapering again. Sometimes we have to learn the hard way how our bodies handle the withdrawal and find our ideal taper amount. You may have to updose again in the future, but your confidence in your own body will grow.

[basildev]

Hi Meim,

 

thanks for your suggestion.

 

I've already had myself tested for apnnoea - all clear.

 

Peggy - thanks. Yes, I am in a fragile state. I certainly won't be thinking about tapering any time soon.

 

thanks:)

[tezza]

Hi basil,

 

It seems like when we start having those waking spells, it causes us to become obsessed about sleeping. It seems it did in my case and from reading stories of others on here, I think it's very common.

 

I know that doesn't make it any easier to accept but try not to let it get you way down. You will stabilize....you will sleep again.

 

Hugs

[Gardner]

Basil

did you go and have a sleep study done in lab to rule out your sleep apnea? I was diagnosed 16 years ago and after moving here, I sure did notice terrible fatigue and nite awaking with snoring until I got the new machine and mask adjusted.

Judy

[dalsaan]

Hi basil

 

You could try some experimentation with the glycine- 1grm 30 mins before bed and then again if you wake

 

Also and this is really hard, don't concentrate on falling asleep, concentrate on relaxing as much as possible. Then if you don't sleep, you have relaxed and relaxing does increase your chances of dropping off

 

Keep in touch with how it's going

 

Dalsaan