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Are psych drugs stored In body fat or tissues for years? Released by exercise?


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Posted (edited)

. Research done nearly 50 years ago showed that although drugs get out of the bloodstream quickly, they leave traces behind in the fatty tissues. These drug residues can stay in the fat cells for years and are released little by little into the rest of the body – even though the person stopped taking the drugs. As the drug residues are released, they create physical and mental cravings for the drugs and can even cause full-blown symptoms to come back. With LSD, these are known as ‘flashbacks.’. It also causes the person to be in a continual state of stress.

Edited by Altostrata
clarified topic title

Started Seroxat(Paxil) for panic attacks in 1997 stopped the drug in 2005 tapered over 3 months ( doctors advice)

Suffered severe and protracted withdrawl ever since.

No other medication taken.

  • Administrator
Posted

I don't believe that's what's happening with antidepressant withdrawal syndrome, squirrel. The stress of withdrawal scrambles our nervous systems.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

Posted

The doctor of a friend of mine said that as well. Might be an interesting point, though it would not explain why I, for example, still have waves and windows 22 months out from only 4 pills. The rest of those pills should be long gone, I guess.

End of 2008: Remeron 15mg for around 2 months. Unorthodox taper, no problems.
End of August 2009: Lexapro 10mg for only 4 days. Panic attack after 3 pills. Severe gastro problems in the morning for 3 days after last pill. 2 weeks later strong w/d symptoms set in.

Acute WD lasted around 3.5 years. I am feeling much better today, 5.5 years out, but still have some symptoms left.

  • Administrator
Posted

Sorry, guys, this is another one of those old husband's tales that you might even hear from doctors. Hidden poisoning is a prominent theme in alternative medicine, leading to all kinds of purification rituals.

 

This must make sense to a very ancient part of the human psyche.

 

However, those cleansing rituals are stressful and usually not good for our over-sensitive nervous systems.

 

The point of tapering is steady, gradual reduction, right? Even if there were residue in your tissues, it would have cushioned your withdrawal, not added to it.

 

You're not being poisoned by tiny amounts of drug buried in your body. Withdrawal occurs because of the absence of a drug, not because of its presence.

 

LSD flashbacks are caused by similar destabilization of the nervous system. LSD is a serotonergic, see Adverse Reactions to Psychedelic Drugs A Review of the Literature, Strassman, 1984.

:

 

"...Serotonergic 5-HT systems especially in the mid

brain raphe nuclei, or neurons projecting from those

nuclei have classically been implicated as the primary

source of psychedelics’ effects. They

seem to preferentially inhibit serotonergic cell firing

via binding to cell-body or dendritic 5-HT receptors

and seem to spare postsynaptic receptors, although

this is controversial. As serotonin is primarily an

inhibitory neurotransmitter, inhibition of these cells

by LSD would allow the next neuron in the chain to

be freed from inhibition...."

 

 

Please do not post this kind of speculation without referring to authoritative sources. Google and you shall find.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

  • 1 year later...
  • Moderator Emeritus
Posted

While not wanting to highjack Marmite's thread, I did want to find out more about whether or not this is true:

 

I'm glad that you will be consulting with David Healy and believe he will best explain that the half-life of these drugs is irrelevant. The drug remains in and is slowly released from tissue and fat for years, I believe. Nobody really knows the many complex ways these drugs impact the entire body.

I wondered about the storage of ADs in body fat too. I wondered if weight loss speeded up withdrawal from the drug in my case, as I lost a lot of weight quickly with the anxiety of being in hospital.

 

My cardiologist said that when they worked on cadavers in med. school they found ADs stored all over the body many years after the patient had stopped ingesting them. Makes you wonder doesn't it?

I hope that all this means is that minute amounts are excreted until the drug is completely gone. The idea that I'll have antidepressants in my body for years to come is terrifying.

Psychotropic drug history: Pristiq 50 mg. (mid-September 2010 through February 2011), Remeron (mid-September 2010 through January 2011), Lexapro 10 mg. (mid-February 2011 through mid-December 2011), Lorazepam (Ativan) 1 mg. as needed mid-September 2010 through early March 2012

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Hanlon's Razor


Introduction: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1588-introducing-jemima/

 

Success Story: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/6263-success-jemima-survives-lexapro-and-dr-dickhead-too/

Please note that I am not a medical professional and my advice is based on personal experience, reading, and anecdotal information posted by other sufferers.

 

Posted

YES! I've been wondering about this as well. Great to see a topic about it.

Have been on Seroquel XR from 2008. Dosages have fluctuated quite a bit. Rough guess: I've been on 250-300-350-400-450-500 mg from 2009-summer 2012. Started tapering july 2012 with cuts of 50 mg. By then I had been on 450 mg for a while. October 2012: 200 mg. Due to flu-like WD reinstated to 250 mg nov 12th.

Posted

Maybe this explains why withdrawal can be delayed? The drug stored in fat can keep you propped up for a while, but once it started to fall withdrawal kicks in?

2003-2011: Paroxetine,Citalopram,Effexor; Aug/Sept 2011: Effexor to Mirtazapine; Oct 2011: C/T Mirtazapine back to Effexor; Nov/Dec 2011: Fast Tapered Effexor - w/d hell; Feb 2012: Reinstated Effexor 37.5mg; June 2012: Dropped to 35.6mg; Jan 2016: Propranolol 2.5mg per day for general anxiety; Feb 2016: Finasteride 0.25mg per week to slow hair loss; 18th May - 8th June 2019: Started Vyvanse 7.5mg and increased by 7.5mg weekly to 30mg (lowest “therapeutic” dose for adults).; 21st June 2019 - 12th July: Cross tapered from venlafaxine brand Rodomel to Efexor (1/4 > 1/2 > 3/4 weekly before ditching Rodomel); 13th July 2019: Cut Vyvanse dose to 15mg; 15th July 2019: Akathisia returned after years of being free; 16th July 2019: Went back up to Vyvanse 30mg

Supplements: Omega-3, Vitamin D, Zinc, Phosphatidylserine 

Posted

When I was sorting through some info for Dr Healy the other day, I came across a download I had printed off, probably 5 years ago by Pam Armstrong called "Back to Life - The Great Escape from Transquiliser Addiction, SSRIs and Sleeping "Z drug" Pills". I referred to it when I was withdrawing.

 

Pam works (worked) for the Council for Information on Transquilisers and Anti-depressants (CITA)....I had never heard of them at the time, but she spoke to me and was working in Liverpool in the UK at the time in support groups, spreading the word about slow withdrawl and addiction. She is a nurse, teacher and pyschology graduate and produced the download based on information provide by other "informed" professionals at the time who she names as : David Healy, Shirley Trickett, Charles Medawar, Dr Peter Breggin and Dr. Ann Blake Tracy.

 

In the download, she also states that anti-depressants have been found in bodies long after ingestion ceased.

 

I don't know if they remain active or whether they are stored somehow...

 

I no longer have the web address for the download, but reading the advice again I wish I had followed it more closely.

 

x

5 yrs on Escitalopram 10mg, 2 week taper resulting in serious protracted w/d

 

Posted

There have been postmortem studies done showing distribution of drug in tissue, blood, bile, etc. I'm not certain how long drugs stay after discontinuing and I suspect it is different for every person depending on many factors. I think this would hold true for most any drugs or environmental toxins that are fat-soluble and stored in tissue.

 

This is probably why various methods of detoxing exacerbate withdrawal symptoms.

Pristiq tapered over 8 months ending Spring 2011 after 18 years of polydrugging that began w/Zoloft for fatigue/general malaise (not mood). CURRENT: 1mg Klonopin qhs (SSRI bruxism), 75mg trazodone qhs, various hormonesLitigation for 11 years for Work-related injury, settled 2004. Involuntary medical retirement in 2001 (age 39). 2012 - brain MRI showing diffuse, chronic cerebrovascular damage/demyelination possibly vasculitis/cerebritis. Dx w/autoimmune polyendocrine failure.<p>2013 - Dx w/CNS Sjogren's Lupus (FANA antibodies first appeared in 1997 but missed by doc).

Posted

I don't choose to think that this is significant, true or not.

 

Mercury is held in the body for years and so are many other undesirables. So far as I understand these foreign substances are, sequestered and if undisturbed, held in moreorless in a harmless stasis.

 

We probably all have freon in our bodies from our car air conditioners too. I'm not losing sleep over it. Actually, it's 11am and I haven;t got any sleep yet ... so maybe?

"Well my ship's been split to splinters and it's sinking fast
I'm drowning in the poison, got no future, got no past
But my heart is not weary, it's light and it's free
I've got nothing but affection for all those who sailed with me.

Everybody's moving, if they ain't already there
Everybody's got to move somewhere
Stick with me baby, stick with me anyhow
Things should start to get interesting right about now."

- Zimmerman

Posted

I don't choose to think that this is significant, true or not.

 

Mercury is held in the body for years and so are many other undesirables. So far as I understand these foreign substances are, sequestered and if undisturbed, held in moreorless in a harmless stasis.

 

We probably all have freon in our bodies from our car air conditioners too. I'm not losing sleep over it. Actually, it's 11am and I haven;t got any sleep yet ... so maybe?

 

Exactly.

Pristiq tapered over 8 months ending Spring 2011 after 18 years of polydrugging that began w/Zoloft for fatigue/general malaise (not mood). CURRENT: 1mg Klonopin qhs (SSRI bruxism), 75mg trazodone qhs, various hormonesLitigation for 11 years for Work-related injury, settled 2004. Involuntary medical retirement in 2001 (age 39). 2012 - brain MRI showing diffuse, chronic cerebrovascular damage/demyelination possibly vasculitis/cerebritis. Dx w/autoimmune polyendocrine failure.<p>2013 - Dx w/CNS Sjogren's Lupus (FANA antibodies first appeared in 1997 but missed by doc).

  • Administrator
Posted

Don't worry about drugs stored in body fat. This probably isn't any more true for antidepressants than any other drug, and has nothing to do with your symptoms.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

  • Administrator
Posted

When I started researching alkaline diets I learned that the body will store acid waste in fat stores to prevent the acid from causing the body's blood pH to go too acidic. The body's blood has a very narrow range between 7.35 and 7.45 on the pH scale that it has to maintain ... otherwise we die.

 

The body protects itself from excessive acid by storing acid waste in fat stores where it cannot affect the blood's pH. The system can only release this acid waste when enough alkalizing substances are present in the body to buffer the acid as it is excreted from the body through respiration, sweat or urine. When a body is in a state of acidosis (excess acid state) it use minerals to neutralize acid in order to remove it from the system ... it takes calcium from the body's stores (bones) in order to eliminate excess acid.

 

The way I dealt with this was to eat an 80% alkaline diet for 6 months and I dropped about 5 pounds of additional fat. I maintain a 65% alkaline diet now that I have gotten a lot of the stored acid waste out of my system.

 

I could give you the reference for this information, but unfortunately I don't remember which of 4 books I read this in - could have been The Ultimate pH Solution, Michelle Schoffro Cook, DNM, DAc; The Acid Alkaline Food Guide, Dr. Susan E. Brown & Larry Trivieri, Jr.; The pH Balance Diet, Bhart Vyas & Suzanne Le Quesne or The Acid-Alkaline Diet for Optimum Health, Christopher Vasey, N.D.

 

Why is this relevant to this discussion? Because I think we can infer from this that if antidepressants are stored in fat cells they are not affecting the system while they are stored in fat. The body stores toxin in fat to prevent damage to the system. I do think that when we start to release this fat it is possible for the toxins to have an effect, but it is probably short-lived because the body only releases the toxins when it has a way to eliminate them from the body.

 

In conclusion, I believe ADs are stored in fat cells and they have no affect there. I think that when we lose weight there may be a slight affect as the toxins are eliminated from the system, but I don't think that this really contributes to withdrawal symptoms.

 

FWIW, this is my quasi-scientific opinion.

 

Karma

2007 @ 375 mg Effexor - 11/29/2011 - 43.75 mg Effexor (regular) & .625 mg Xanax

200 mg Gabapentin 2/27/21 - 194.5 mg, 5/28/21 - 183 mg, 8/2/21 - 170 mg, 11/28/21 - 150 mg, 4/19/22 - 122 mg; 8//7/22 - 100 mg; 12/17 - 75mg; 8/17 - 45 mg; 10/16 40 mg; 7/31/24 16.25
Xanax taper: 3/11/12 - 0.9375 mg, 3/25/12 - 0.875 mg, 4/6/12 - 0.8125 mg, 4/18/12 - 0.75 ; 10/16 40mg;

1/16 0.6875 mg; at some point 0.625 mg
Effexor taper: 1/29/12 - 40.625 mg, 4/29/12 - 39.875 mg, 5/11/12 - Switched to liquid Effexor, 5/25/12 - 38 mg, 7/6/12 - 35 mg, 8/17/12 - 32 mg, 9/14/12 - 30 mg, 10/19/12 - 28 mg, 11/9/12 - 26 mg, 11/30/12 - 24 mg, 01/14/13 - 22 mg. 02/25/13 - 20.8 mg, 03/18/13 - 19.2 mg, 4/15/13 - 17.6 mg, 8/10/13 - 16.4 mg, 9/7/13 - 15.2 mg, 10/19/13 - 14 mg, 1/15/14 - 13.2 mg, 3/1/2014 - 12.6 mg, 5/4/14 - 12 mg, 8/1/14 - 11.4 mg, 8/29/14 - 10.8 mg; 10/14/14 - 10.2 mg; 12/15/14 - 10 mg, 1/11/15 - 9.5 mg, 2/8/15 - 9 mg, 3/21/15 - 8.5 mg, 5/1/15 - 8 mg, 6/9/15 - 7.5 mg, 7/8/15 - 7 mg, 8/22/15 - 6.5 mg, 10/4/15 - 6 mg; 1/1/16 - 5.6 mg; 2/6/16 - 5.2 mg; 4/9 - 4.8 mg; 7/7 4.5 mg; 10/7 4.25 mg; 11/4 4.0 mg; 11/25 3.8 mg; 4/24 3.6 mg; 5/27 3.4 mg; 7/8 3.2 mg ... 10/18 2.8 mg; 1/18 2.6 mg; 4/7 2.4 mg; 5/26 2.15mg; 8/18 1.85 mg; 10/7 1.7 mg; 12/1 1.45 mg; 3/2 1.2 mg; 5/4 0.90 mg; 6/1 0.80 mg; 6/22 0.65 mg; 08/03 0.50 mg, 08/10 0.45 mg, 10/05 0.325 mg, 11/23 0.2 mg, 12/14 0.15 mg, 12/21 0.125 mg, 02/28 0.03125 mg, 2/15 0.015625 mg, 2/29/20 0.00 mg - OFF Effexor


I am not a medical professional - this is not medical advice. My suggestions are based on personal experience, reading, observation and anecdotal information posted by other sufferers

  • 4 months later...
Posted

Very Interesting:
 
http://www.seroxatusergroup.org.uk/Dangers%20of%20Tapering%20off%20an%20SSRI.pdf
 
Protracted Withdrawal is the time period that begins once one has finished tapering off an SSRI - they are no longer ingesting the drug but it is stored in the body’s fat cells as SSRIs are fat- soluble drugs. We have no way of knowing when this condition ends because many are known to experience "drug pockets" where the drug which has been stored in the body, releases - due to exercise, weight loss, sweating, or a number of other reasons including the body's own nature to expel that which is unnatural and toxic. This appears to be a reason that these drugs can be so difficult to taper off.
 
Additionally, there is seemingly no research available on the subject of SSRIs being fat-soluble drugs, [see right for description]. It seems that psychotropic drugs are fat soluble in order for them to pass through the blood-brain barrier.
 
What we know is that most street-drugs [ie: heroin and cocaine] are water-soluble. Hence, one can go in to a Detox Center and be taken off these drugs in a matter of a few days. This is NOT possible with an SSRI because the drug stores in the fat and takes months to release out of the body.
There is also speculation that SSRIs disable the body from being able to work properly and need time to heal. Since there is no research on this, we can only suggest that SSRIs "affect multiple systems throughout the body. The body has to reawaken functions that it had not used for a long time, and also it has to tone down certain functions that had been increased to compensate for the medication's dampening effects. All of these adjustments have their own timeline, can be "protracted," and are connected to the progress of withdrawal over time."[3]
Protracted Withdrawal can be extremely dangerous if one is not properly prepared, often leading the one in withdrawal to have to go back on the SSRI to stabilize and typically, it is at a higher dose than before coming off the drug.
This is the reason that NOT ONE facility exists in this country [or any other countries] for one to go and detox off of an SSRI. It would take too long. There would be no 28-day stay... 28-days
would be just the beginning for a taper off an SSRI...
[3] Dr. Alice W. Lee-Bloem, MD, www.holisticpsychiatrist.com

2005-2008: Effexor; 1/2008 Tapered 3 months, then quit. 7/2008-2009 Reinstated Effexor (crying spells at start of new job.)
2009-3/2013: Switched to Pristiq 50 mg then 100 mg
3/2013: Switched to Lexapro 10mg. Cut down to 5 mg. CT for 2 weeks then reinstated for 6 weeks
8/2013-8/2014: Tapering Lexapro (Lots of withdrawal symptoms)
11/2014 -8/2015: Developed severe insomnia and uncontrollable daily crying spells
12/2014-6/2015: Tried Ambien, Klonopin, Ativan, Lunesta, Sonata, Trazadone, Seroquel, Rameron, Gabapentin - Developed Anxiety disorder, PTSD, and Psychogenic Myoclonus
7/2015-1/2016: Reinstated Lexapro 2 mg (mild improvement, but crying spells still present)

1/2016-5/2017: Lexapro 5 mg ( helped a lot, but poor stress tolerance & depressive episodes)

5/20/2017 - Raised dose to Lexapro 10 mg due to lingering depression(Total of 2 failed tapers & severe PAWS)

9/11/2018 - Present: Still on 10 mg Lexapro and mostly recovered.(Anxiety still triggers Myoclonus.)

10/7/2022 - 20 mg Lexapro (brand only) Plus occasional Klonopin for anxiety and Ambien for insomnia.

 

  • Administrator
Posted

This argument makes no sense at all. Withdrawal syndrome comes from the ABSENCE of a drug, not its presence.

 

If a drug is stored in fat, it would slowly be metabolized, which, like tapering, would cushion withdrawal, not initiate it.

 

Fat solubility or water solubility of the drug is not relevant to withdrawal syndrome.

 

This is yet another bit of misinformation about withdrawal syndrome that seems to get recirculated constantly. While Dr. Lee-Bloem may be commended for making an effort to understand withdrawal syndrome, her reasoning regarding this is questionable.

 

She is correct, however, in that the effects of the drugs tend to dysregulate neurological and endocrinological processes -- and this is highly relevant to withdrawal syndrome.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

  • 8 months later...
Posted

This PDF thats attached is from the Trafford Tranquilizer Group.  There's one statement they made which made me curious.  They said SSRIs are not only stored in the brain, but in fat cells.  Here's another quote about while tapering from the PDF that has me curious:

 

"You need to learn to pace yourself because every time you do too much
work, fat in the body breaks down and releases more of the drug it has been storing
into your blood stream. The day after, you will suffer an unplanned reduction."

 

 

Anyone hear of this?

 

SSRI-Withdrawal.pdf

On Venlafaxine XR 75mg > 20 years, because a general MD decided to try these new "calming pills" taken from his sample closet because my pulse was a little high since I get nervous going to the doctor.

 

June 2010 - Cold turkey

September 2010 - Sudden onset of EXTREME anxiety, constant terror and fear that got marginally better at night.  I had no idea what or why this was; had no idea it was the quitting of Effexor. 

December 2010 - reinstated 75mgs Effexor XR, felt no better months later

January 2011 - Began 5% taper every month

2012 - Anxiety began improving by had many windows and waves

January 2014 - Fell back into sudden onset of same anxiety, fear as in 2010; realized I was tapering too quickly.  I was not allowing withdrawal effects to dissipate before another taper.  Began 2% taper every 6 to 8 months

2016 - Fear, anxiety began to wane

2017, 18 & 19 - Constant Fear & anxiety stopped, just occasional minor bouts that lasted 3 days or so

December 2020 - Now at ~31mgs Effexor XR, 5mgs Crestor 

November 2022 - Added 6% minoxidil and 0.3% finasteride topical. Used for a year. Got systemic side effects. Quit 11/19/2023. Also intermittently used 10 to 20mgs propanolol for adrenaline surges/pvcs. Stopped them also on 11/19/2023.

 
 
Posted

I don't think that's true about fat...but it is true that exercising too hard can exacerbate symptoms...they're just getting a bit creative about why  ;)

 

I still get that reaction from too much exercise...and i"m more than 4 years out...nothing stored in my fat at this point! 

Everything Matters: Beyond Meds 

https://beyondmeds.com/

withdrawn from a cocktail of 6 psychiatric drugs that included every class of psych drug.
 

  • Moderator Emeritus
Posted

It may be stored in fat but not logical for it to be released like that. I don't think we need to worry about the amount that's stored in fat.

 

I should have plenty stored in the 30 lbs I've put on, lol, but I'm not at all concerned about it being released, later. I just hope it falls off along with the fat once I'm off the Risperidone.

Posted

toxins in general are stored in fat...and rapid weight loss actually exacerbated my symptoms when I stopped eating at one point...it just doesn't work as simply as they suggest. 

Everything Matters: Beyond Meds 

https://beyondmeds.com/

withdrawn from a cocktail of 6 psychiatric drugs that included every class of psych drug.
 

Posted

I've heard of people doing intensive sauna detox re-experiencing drug effects from meds or rec drugs taken years before. Also Lyme patients frquenently talk about antibiotic herx effects after doing big detoxes like liver flushes, and of course after taking lots of abx. I don't know that this effect, toxins in fat, is an explanation for the symptoms that are experienced on this board but the principle is pretty widely reported. The scientologists might say something about this too, I don'r know what they say. While I don't take thier theology seriously, they are more experienced than anyone else in the world practically in intense sauna detox, see the 911 workers detox stories and attendant controversy.

"Well my ship's been split to splinters and it's sinking fast
I'm drowning in the poison, got no future, got no past
But my heart is not weary, it's light and it's free
I've got nothing but affection for all those who sailed with me.

Everybody's moving, if they ain't already there
Everybody's got to move somewhere
Stick with me baby, stick with me anyhow
Things should start to get interesting right about now."

- Zimmerman

  • Moderator Emeritus
Posted

I don't know, but unless I see some hard data I'm not going to believe it's a robust effect--that is, the release of stored drugs from fat. For one thing, I think it's highly likely that if our bodies do store drugs in our fat cells what they're storing is the metabolites of the drug--not likely it's going to stay in there in unaltered form. I just don't think it's likely to be that simple. Overworking and overexhausting oneself does appear to be a problem in withdrawal, I'm just skeptical that's the reason.

 

I did skim the PDF though and it doesn't sound too bad. At least they're not saying anything dangerously off base, and what they're saying is more truthful and helpful than what most doctors' offices will say, so that's something. 

Started on Prozac and Xanax in 1992 for PTSD after an assault. One drug led to more, the usual story. Got sicker and sicker, but believed I needed the drugs for my "underlying disease". Long story...lost everything. Life savings, home, physical and mental health, relationships, friendships, ability to work, everything. Amitryptiline, Prozac, bupropion, buspirone, flurazepam, diazepam, alprazolam, Paxil, citalopram, lamotrigine, gabapentin...probably more I've forgotten. 

Started multidrug taper in Feb 2010.  Doing a very slow microtaper, down to low doses now and feeling SO much better, getting my old personality and my brain back! Able to work full time, have a full social life, and cope with stress better than ever. Not perfect, but much better. After 23 lost years. Big Pharma has a lot to answer for. And "medicine for profit" is just not a great idea.

 

Feb 15 2010:  300 mg Neurontin  200 Lamictal   10 Celexa      0.65 Xanax   and 5 mg Ambien 

Feb 10 2014:   62 Lamictal    1.1 Celexa         0.135 Xanax    1.8 Valium

Feb 10 2015:   50 Lamictal      0.875 Celexa    0.11 Xanax      1.5 Valium

Feb 15 2016:   47.5 Lamictal   0.75 Celexa      0.0875 Xanax    1.42 Valium    

2/12/20             12                       0.045               0.007                   1 

May 2021            7                       0.01                  0.0037                1

Feb 2022            6                      0!!!                     0.00167               0.98                2.5 mg Ambien

Oct 2022       4.5 mg Lamictal    (off Celexa, off Xanax)   0.95 Valium    Ambien, 1/4 to 1/2 of a 5 mg tablet 

 

I'm not a doctor. Any advice I give is just my civilian opinion.

Posted

I couldn't guess whether it's a metabolite of a drug or not. As I understand the idea the toxins stored would be metabolic waste as much as anything.

 

Would it need to be a metabolite to experience the effect of the drug? Because people who use the sauna treatments claim that they re-experience drugs they've abused in their lifetime. People doing heavy sauna detox can be pretty unconventional and most of the anecdotes are around LSD flashbacks.

 

I come across this quote searching for sauna detox therapy LSD:


            Supervision during a sauna therapy program is helpful. The presence of an attendant or friend close by is also most helpful if you have any type of health condition.

            Removing drugs from tissue storage may cause flashbacks or temporary drug effects, the same as when you took the drug.  If you have used LSD or other psychotropic drugs, have an attendant near by, as a few have experienced flashbacks or even full-blown LSD trips.  In addition, follow the basic safety procedures below:

 

 

I am not a believer in fat cell detox causing the withdrawal syndromes that people here are experiencing and I never heard of this group in the original post. I think it's pretty unlikely that overexertion worsening symptoms is from fat cell detox, I agree. I don't think the detox proponents think exercise induced sweating is effective as a detox anyway but that araeboic -sweating is more psyhiologically a heat valve.

 

I think though that I've seen a lot of testimony about sweating and detox generally. Again, not in regarcds to people who are sick from psychiatry.

I don't know, but unless I see some hard data I'm not going to believe it's a robust effect--that is, the release of stored drugs from fat. For one thing, I think it's highly likely that if our bodies do store drugs in our fat cells what they're storing is the metabolites of the drug--not likely it's going to stay in there in unaltered form. I just don't think it's likely to be that simple. Overworking and overexhausting oneself does appear to be a problem in withdrawal, I'm just skeptical that's the reason.

 

"Well my ship's been split to splinters and it's sinking fast
I'm drowning in the poison, got no future, got no past
But my heart is not weary, it's light and it's free
I've got nothing but affection for all those who sailed with me.

Everybody's moving, if they ain't already there
Everybody's got to move somewhere
Stick with me baby, stick with me anyhow
Things should start to get interesting right about now."

- Zimmerman

  • Moderator Emeritus
Posted

Sorry, I don't know much about sauna detox or the whole detox paradigm in general. I can't understand why sauna conditions would metabolize fat stores, seems like it would do the opposite. I've heard so many claims over the years about detox that don't really make sense, so I tend to be skeptical. 

 

Sauna is excellent for helping eliminate water-soluble waste and toxins though. My exhusband used it as an adjunct when he was on kidney dialysis. And the liver does attach non-water-soluble stuff to proteins that make it soluble in water, so maybe something is happening with that, I don't know.  I doubt that complexes that large would be able to be eliminated through the skin. But I'm just speculating.

 

It's not something I've really looked into.

Started on Prozac and Xanax in 1992 for PTSD after an assault. One drug led to more, the usual story. Got sicker and sicker, but believed I needed the drugs for my "underlying disease". Long story...lost everything. Life savings, home, physical and mental health, relationships, friendships, ability to work, everything. Amitryptiline, Prozac, bupropion, buspirone, flurazepam, diazepam, alprazolam, Paxil, citalopram, lamotrigine, gabapentin...probably more I've forgotten. 

Started multidrug taper in Feb 2010.  Doing a very slow microtaper, down to low doses now and feeling SO much better, getting my old personality and my brain back! Able to work full time, have a full social life, and cope with stress better than ever. Not perfect, but much better. After 23 lost years. Big Pharma has a lot to answer for. And "medicine for profit" is just not a great idea.

 

Feb 15 2010:  300 mg Neurontin  200 Lamictal   10 Celexa      0.65 Xanax   and 5 mg Ambien 

Feb 10 2014:   62 Lamictal    1.1 Celexa         0.135 Xanax    1.8 Valium

Feb 10 2015:   50 Lamictal      0.875 Celexa    0.11 Xanax      1.5 Valium

Feb 15 2016:   47.5 Lamictal   0.75 Celexa      0.0875 Xanax    1.42 Valium    

2/12/20             12                       0.045               0.007                   1 

May 2021            7                       0.01                  0.0037                1

Feb 2022            6                      0!!!                     0.00167               0.98                2.5 mg Ambien

Oct 2022       4.5 mg Lamictal    (off Celexa, off Xanax)   0.95 Valium    Ambien, 1/4 to 1/2 of a 5 mg tablet 

 

I'm not a doctor. Any advice I give is just my civilian opinion.

Posted

I tend not to be skeptical out of self interested hope. Sauna is one of the few methods of removing ochratoxin and other mycotoxin that I can find success stories online. So I want to believe the method works so that I may be able to use it to save my quality of life in the future. So believing it can, in theorry, detox products of psychiatric drugs is appealing to me as an idea.

"Well my ship's been split to splinters and it's sinking fast
I'm drowning in the poison, got no future, got no past
But my heart is not weary, it's light and it's free
I've got nothing but affection for all those who sailed with me.

Everybody's moving, if they ain't already there
Everybody's got to move somewhere
Stick with me baby, stick with me anyhow
Things should start to get interesting right about now."

- Zimmerman

  • Administrator
Posted

Whether drugs are stored in fat or not has no bearing at all on withdrawal. If drugs are stored in fat, their slow release would assist a taper; that is, they would be gradually metabolized and excreted. Rushing them out of the body to "detox" makes absolutely no sense if you're trying to taper.

 

Some people say saunas make them feel better, calm them down, and help them sleep. This probably has nothing to do with any detoxing in a sauna, it most likely is activation of the parasympathetic nervous system.

 

HOWEVER, many people with withdrawal syndrome have heat sensitivity, so I suggest going carefully with saunas or any heat therapy.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

  • 3 weeks later...
Posted

I have been off all medication for nearly a couple of years now.

 

Every so often I experience depression and anxiety symptoms for up to a couple of weeks, but this only happens a day or so after I haven't eaten enough or if I do sit-ups.

 

I have read that alot of drugs/antidepressants are lipophilic (stored in fat) which leads me to believe that every time I exercise or don't eat enough the fat gets burned/used and the drugs get released, causing the symptoms.

 

I can rule out diet/food as I very very rarely eat any processed food and know what to avoid (msg, aspartame, artificial colours, etc...)

Posted

Hi techdude101,

 

Professionals advocating that theory have never provided any serious proof of this.

 

Depression and anxiety can result from a million things that have nothing to do with withdrawal.   Then again, if you tapered too quickly, you could be experiencing symptoms that may seems like they are correlated with events but aren't.

 

CS

Drug cocktail 1995 - 2010
Started taper of Adderall, Wellbutrin XL, Remeron, and Doxepin in 2006
Finished taper on June 10, 2010

Temazepam on a PRN basis approximately twice a month - 2014 to 2016

Beginning in 2017 - Consumption increased to about two times per week

April 2017 - Increased to taking it full time for insomnia

Posted

I don't think I tapered too quickly as I didn't experience any major withdrawal symptoms.

 

It seems too reproducible to be caused by anything else.

 

For example, if I have been stable for a couple of weeks (at least) then do about 30 sit-ups (15 + 15) the chance of symptoms re-appearing the next day are >=90%. I also notice I get the old sedated feeling, as if I had taken amitriptyline the night before.

 

When I say stable, I mean the mood is good, no anxiety and good concentration (able to study maths).

 

Over about 10 years I have been on: prozac, cymbalta, amitriptyline, cymbalta + valium, cymbalta + seroquel, mirtazapine, cymbalta + mirtazapine, cymbalta + lyrica, cymbalta + agomelatine, cymbalta + amitriptyline.

 

I stopped all medication nearly 2 years ago (2 years in october 2014).

The reason I was able to stop taking prescription medication is I changed my diet and started taking vitamins and minerals.

 

I'm curious if anyone else has experienced something similar.

Posted

I was able to excersize yesterday after a long time, and it triggered my hypersomnia (excessive sleeping). I suspect that it's a side effect of the drugs.

 

It's exciting to find someone who's doing it with diet and vitamins-minerals, I'm doing it the same way! I will write you a PM. 

in 2002- 0,5 tablet cipramil for half a year, ended it uneventfully. in 2006 - citalopram for half a year, ended in horrific state, ditched the drugs CT. 2007-2008 not feeling well but drug free. in 2008 prozac 20mg + quetiapine 25mg. 2009 tried to stop, ended up in hole after couple of months, started zoloft. 2009-2011 zoloft 50mg. went to 25mg in 2011 summer, it resulted in half a year horrible suffering. reinstated, changed drugs, nothing happened. by 2012 beginning suddenly felt great and CT meds. after 4 months came suddenly most horrible human suffering that's possible. was started on prozac and questiapine. started tapering slowly, GFCF diet and Hardy Nutritionals vitamins in 2013 summer. 

current medications: 1) fluoxetine and quetiapine since Aug 2012; 2) Daily Essential Nutrients by Hardy Nutritionals 7 capsules / since May 2013 + omega3; 3) Gluten-free-casein-free diet since june 2013

Started withdrawing slowly since april 2013. Mostly around 10% cuts. 

April'13 - March'14: fluoxetine 40mg -> 19,5mg; quetiapine 50mg -> 40mg
April'14-March'15: fluoxetine 19,5mg -> 14,4mg; quetiapine 40mg -> 22mg

April'15-March'16: fluoxetine 14,4mg -> 7,4mg; quetiapine 22mg -> 15mg

April'16-March'17: fluoxetine 7,4mg -> 5,0mg; quetiapine 15mg -> 7,25mg

April'17-March'18: fluoxetine 5,0mg -> 4,0mg; quetiapine 7,25mg -> 0 (as of 1st Feb 2018)!!!!

April´18-March´19: fluoxetine 4,0mg - > 2,3mg. Jumped off fluoxetine 1,4mg due to pregnancy in July 2019. Oct 2019 severe withdrawal syndrome started.

Took mistakenly a complex for hormonal support that included pregnenolone dec2019-april2020. Stopped it april 2020 and immediately severe akathisia started. Have had life threatening akathisia since, 100% disabled, suicidal, very hard to hold on. 

 

  • Administrator
Posted

I doubt very much that, if drugs are still stored in your tissues, the tiny amount that might be released under any circumstances would cause those symptoms.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

Posted

Dieting 'could lead to positive drug tests'

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2009/08/11/dieting-could-lead-positive-drug-tests

 

"Accumulation of drugs in tissues or body compartments can prolong drug action because the tissues release the accumulated drug as plasma drug concentration decreases. For example, thiopental is highly lipid soluble, rapidly enters the brain after a single IV injection, and has a marked and rapid anesthetic effect; the effect ends within a few minutes as the drug is redistributed to more slowly perfused fatty tissues. Thiopental is then slowly released from fat storage, maintaining subanesthetic plasma levels. These levels may become significant if doses of thiopental are repeated, causing large amounts to be stored in fat. Thus, storage in fat initially shortens the drug's effect but then prolongs it."

 

Source: http://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/clinical_pharmacology/pharmacokinetics/drug_distribution_to_tissues.html

 

 

I wonder if a combination of drugs/antidepressants getting released from fat cells could have an additive effect as well.

  • Administrator
Posted

How exactly would the release of antidepressant residue from fat tissues cause depression or anxiety?

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

Posted

Most antidepressants can/do make depression worse. Have a look at the detailed side effects.

Amitriptyline:

  • mental depression or anxiety

Source: http://www.drugs.com/sfx/amitriptyline-side-effects.html

 Duloxetine:

Completed suicide, mania, manic switching, mood swings

 

Source:http://www.drugs.com/sfx/cymbalta-side-effects.html

 

http://psychcentral.com/news/2011/12/09/some-people-feel-worse-on-antidepressants-like-cymbalta/32430.html

 

I would encourage anyone who reads this to do their own research.

Also watch out for bias.

"Drug studies financed by pharmaceutical companies frequently show positive results in favour of the sponsor."

Source: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/05/100507092335.htm

The same applies to health or nutrition companies or websites.

  • Administrator
Posted

Yes, depression and anxiety can be a side effect of antidepressants at usual dosages.

 

If an antidepressant is stored in fat, how much do you think would be released by an hour of exercise? A microgram? Smaller than a microgram?

 

How much do you think is stored in your body?

 

I truly, truly do not think this is a consideration in experiencing post-discontinuation syndrome.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

Posted

As I mentioned previously, some combinations of drugs can have an additive effect.

Cymbalta + 1

Amitriptyline +1

 

Cymbalta + amitriptyline = depression and anxiety x 2

 

Additive effect of rimonabant and citalopram on extracellular serotonin levels monitored with in vivo microdialysis in rat brain

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0014299913002616

 

I don't know how much actually gets stored in fat, but according to the link I posted previously "Dieting 'could lead to positive drug tests'", enough is stored to have an effect.

The scientific study also says that the stress hormone can increase the speed of release of the drug.

Exercise + stress = more antidepressants being released

 

I would like to know how much of a drug gets stored in the body. I haven't found any formulas yet.

If anyone has any information or links I would appreciate it.

 

Ideally, any argument should be backed up by research.

  • Moderator Emeritus
Posted

First let me say: it's your body, and your life, so if your hypothesis makes sense to you, go for it, especially if it's helpful to you.

 

However, this forum has a hard-won, hard-defended reputation for sound science, and I'm protective of it, so for the sake of anyone else reading this I would like to point out that this discussion is pure speculation.  None of the citations given contain evidence that supports your hypothesis.

 

The studies on THC released from fat (the only science in the "dieting/drug tests" article) were done over a very short term, in mice, and the effect faded within days. Nothing about "years later." Even in the one human who claims to have had elevated THC after losing 8.8 pounds of fat in a very short time (not after doing 30 situps)--in his case he claimed it had been "months," and there are no direct quotes from him, and the article is just a popular news piece. And his case was not proven, it's just his claim (I haven't smoked pot in months, honest, it must be from losing all that weight! Not that he's lying, just that it's impossible to prove he's not.)

 

I'm not trying to put you down in any way. It's an intriguing line of inquiry and I'm the last person to stifle inquiry. I just know how poor science education is in the US and how vulnerable people in withdrawal are, and I want to make sure that people who read this thread understand its purely speculative nature. The subject of drugs stored in fat comes up here from time to time and it's already confusing enough to people as it is.

 

I myself would need a lot of surprising evidence to believe that significant enough quantities of active, unmetabolized pharmaceutical drugs are stored in body tissues for years after ingestion to have any kind of noticeable effect when finally released, especially from the amount of fat that would need to be burned to do 30 situps (looks like 4.8 calories per minute)--presuming you had been fasting for hours at the time and continued to fast for hours afterward, so that all the energy would have to come from stored fat.

 

(http://www.ask.com/question/how-many-calories-are-burnt-doing-situps)

 

It just doesn't sound very probable to me. Rather to the contrary. 

Started on Prozac and Xanax in 1992 for PTSD after an assault. One drug led to more, the usual story. Got sicker and sicker, but believed I needed the drugs for my "underlying disease". Long story...lost everything. Life savings, home, physical and mental health, relationships, friendships, ability to work, everything. Amitryptiline, Prozac, bupropion, buspirone, flurazepam, diazepam, alprazolam, Paxil, citalopram, lamotrigine, gabapentin...probably more I've forgotten. 

Started multidrug taper in Feb 2010.  Doing a very slow microtaper, down to low doses now and feeling SO much better, getting my old personality and my brain back! Able to work full time, have a full social life, and cope with stress better than ever. Not perfect, but much better. After 23 lost years. Big Pharma has a lot to answer for. And "medicine for profit" is just not a great idea.

 

Feb 15 2010:  300 mg Neurontin  200 Lamictal   10 Celexa      0.65 Xanax   and 5 mg Ambien 

Feb 10 2014:   62 Lamictal    1.1 Celexa         0.135 Xanax    1.8 Valium

Feb 10 2015:   50 Lamictal      0.875 Celexa    0.11 Xanax      1.5 Valium

Feb 15 2016:   47.5 Lamictal   0.75 Celexa      0.0875 Xanax    1.42 Valium    

2/12/20             12                       0.045               0.007                   1 

May 2021            7                       0.01                  0.0037                1

Feb 2022            6                      0!!!                     0.00167               0.98                2.5 mg Ambien

Oct 2022       4.5 mg Lamictal    (off Celexa, off Xanax)   0.95 Valium    Ambien, 1/4 to 1/2 of a 5 mg tablet 

 

I'm not a doctor. Any advice I give is just my civilian opinion.

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