Finn: Hello

[mammaP]

Rooting for you Finn, hope it is ok. 

[Finn]

Thanks for the well wishes. I see my psychiatrist again on the 6th of Jan so I'll probably know then.

 

I think the Prozac I've been taking to offset Effexor has made my jaw clentch/ hurt, which is quite annoying. I might stop it. It's been two weeks, and it should take two weeks to taper itself so maybe that's enough. Probably not. My mind is mush, and I'm so unmotivated and apathetic so right now, nothing really sounds overly good or bad. I feel like a jerk saying this, but I almost wish I had some brain condition that would kill me so I wouldn't have to deal with this **** anymore.

[btdt]

I made a post here that I don't see now what is with that?

[Finn]

I didn't actually get to see my doctor because my appointment was cancelled due to horrendous weather. I would call to reschedule, but I don't want to until I know my insurance will pay. Their not paying might be an issue because the claim was denied, but it may just have been submitted to the wrong place. I would like to know the results, but I also have the images on disk so I can take it to another doctor who could read it, if it came down to that.

 

I've been taking the 10mg of Prozac for 3/4 weeks now, which means it has also been that long since I last took Effexor. The Prozac must have made quitting Effexor tolerable. I still get periods of jitteriness, headaches, etc, so I'm not symptom-free by any means, but I can function waaaaaay better than had I stopped Effexor without adding Prozac. What's the length of time one takes Prozac in this scenario? I'm sort of horrified to stop since it seems to be the only thing between me and bad withdrawal (like I had experienced), but I also know it is only a matter of time before Prozac makes me blunted like the other medications did.

[Lexy]

As I recall you jumped off at 22mg on effexor. I'm sure others will advise you better than I. However have you thought about doing the liquid Prozac to taper slowly?

[Narcissus]

Hi, Finn.

In this thread on the prozac switch Alto a Dr. Mark Foster, who advises tapering for 4-8 weeks (immediately?) after you drop the first medication.  

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1463-the-prozac-switch-or-bridging-with-prozac/#entry13616

 

But again, in my opinion these kinds of guidelines aren't nearly as valuable as carefully monitoring yourself.  From the way the switch is discussed in that thread, you're sort of "tricking" your brain to accept the prozac in place of the original drug.  This suggests to me that you'd want to be very careful when tapering the prozac, as according the "tire change" theory your body's dependence on the initial drug will have just switched over to the prozac.  The prozac should be gentler because of the shorter half life, but you still have a dependence that's been built up over a long perod of time.  But this is all speculative.  Just be careful!

[Altostrata]

I'd give it another month at least to allow your nervous system to stabilize before reducing Prozac.

[Needmylifeback]

Finn... I just caught up on your intro.... So bear with me

 

*people keep asking why you worked so hard to taper and then Abruptly dropped down... Didn't your pdoc not refill your effexor bc her solution was to put you on wellbutrin?! And you opted to not add more drugs?

 

I think that was a good move.... Unless you could continue receiving effexor to work with..... Where I live getting a second opinion or even going to a different hospital only results in deep mistrust and suspicion towards you for changing drs (I tried bc the dr at the ER close to me suffered humiliation and professional chastisement over his malpractice type behavior with his treatment my youngest child... So when I showed up violently ill and on the verge of a stroke he ordered the Exact same test - that he demanded my daughter reroute and come to HIS hospital to have run - on me even though it was irrelevant to my condition. It was his chance to get back at me for getting him in trouble... Except I never did any of that!! I was too busy keeping my child alive. It was the EMTs who filed everything against him and turned over the tape of his hysterical ranting threats against me to his bosses at the hospital and to the city councils. So when I was weak and sick he ran the exact same expensive test... gave me two lortab and sent me home in CHF and on the verge of a stroke).... this is WHY I went to a different ER after not getting any real help for several years at my local hospital .... But doing so only raised suspicion and left my care being dictated by the spurned lunatic I was trying to escape. It's an inbred mess where I live!! And switching drs only guarantees no one will look at your case with fresh eyes! So I would have done the same.... Rather than ask a dr to refill effexor when that dr has said I don't need to taper.

 

But I am glad you were able to go back to her and have her work with you to lessen your w/d symptoms

 

*many times liver enzymes that are too high may not be high enough to risk liver failure but will still be high enough to cause symptoms and problems ... Just FYI.

 

*I had never had headaches until my first at 19yo. Still they were never a big deal. Then during my fifth pregnancy I began having migraines. And some study proved they were tied to my periods. I only had migraines when I had periods... Then it was the week before and the week I menstruated. So they did put me on BC pills and it helped enormously!!

 

*I also take several of the things you take ... While I don't recall any specific issues with coming off effexor.... I am juggling the screaming pain only inside my skull, have woken up covered in black bruises indicating internal bleeding, and have struggled with the meds damaging my liver and now struggling with how to get off one to calm my liver back down.

 

Mainly, I wanted to tell you that I was placed on these meds (and did a dozen MRIs) for reasons other than depressive episodes or anxiety.... And these category of drugs STILL have wreaked havoc on me... Giving me anxiety and depression!! Which I didn't have before. Don't make any judgements about where you or your brain are while you are in flux.... These meds are causing me symptoms others describe as the types of feelings that had them take the meds in the first place except I never felt any of those things until after they put me on the drugs!! Going on them, having them impact our biochemistry, trying to safely taper off them, and redefining life after these drugs ..... It is all a state of transition and change that does not represent who we are or who we will always be!!!

 

Just don't make any permanent decisions based on temporary circumstance.

 

I am certain the impact these meds have on us are very real and very discouraging. But it isn't forever. It's a transitional phase until we can restabilize after having been deeply affected by these meds. None of this is permanent. We have every reason to believe the insanity we feel inside our heads is induced by the meds themselves since patients w/o any underlying issues related to anxiety or depression still experience this same madness while on and when trying to get off this category of medications.

 

If a medication caused our tongue to swell, we would rightly discontinue the drug!! We would not decide that our tongue was forever after impaired and cut it out! the same is true for our brains. We have every reason to hope that our remarkable bodies can and will repair the damage these meds have caused.

[btdt]

I'd give it another month at least to allow your nervous system to stabilize before reducing Prozac.

another month would put her at 7-8 wks off effexor 

the timeline I had for flu symptoms going off effexor was 6-7 wks was really ok till then but I did cold turkey off a higher dose just wonder if that is a good timeline... this is just my story and I know others have different timelines 

I am surprised a reduction in prozac starts so quickly but I do trust Alto to know her stuff as somebody said she did a study of it with a doctor.  Still am surprised by it. 

[Altostrata]

I didn't actually get to see my doctor because my appointment was cancelled due to horrendous weather. I would call to reschedule, but I don't want to until I know my insurance will pay. Their not paying might be an issue because the claim was denied, but it may just have been submitted to the wrong place. I would like to know the results, but I also have the images on disk so I can take it to another doctor who could read it, if it came down to that.

 

I've been taking the 10mg of Prozac for 3/4 weeks now, which means it has also been that long since I last took Effexor. The Prozac must have made quitting Effexor tolerable. I still get periods of jitteriness, headaches, etc, so I'm not symptom-free by any means, but I can function waaaaaay better than had I stopped Effexor without adding Prozac. What's the length of time one takes Prozac in this scenario? I'm sort of horrified to stop since it seems to be the only thing between me and bad withdrawal (like I had experienced), but I also know it is only a matter of time before Prozac makes me blunted like the other medications did.

 

Going by the symptoms Finn is reporting here, my guess is she will benefit from a longer time of dosage stability on the Prozac.

[Finn]

I worry that it is impossible for me to know what symtpom is caused by Effexor withdrawal and what might be a side effect of Prozac. Like I am starting to feel quite apathetic, withdrawn and blunted again--not that I ever didn't, but I do have brief periods where I feel slightly better emotionally than I do now. What if at this point Prozac is making these feelings worse. I agree and thus will follow the advise that I should stabilize. I rescheduled my appointment for the end of the month, which only matters because I must wait until I see the doctor to get the mri results. My doctor is of no real help with withdrawal; remember I was the one who suggested the Prozac in the first place so she wouldn't know about timing. Her advise is to wait it out.

[Altostrata]

It's a very long shot that the MRI will show anything significant.

[Finn]

It's a very long shot that the MRI will show anything significant.

 

But that is good. Ultimately, why would I want something to be noticably abnormal?

 

So, I know I said I was going to stay taking the 10mg of Prozac for about another month, but I was getting antsy from the flatness so I have been not taking it for a few days to see what happens. Mostly I just feel impatient and irritatable if I go more than a day without taking the next dose. I should probably taper down from Prozac...But the Prozac is waaaay more annoying to reduce in dose than the Effexor was.

[Altostrata]

It is a very bad idea to simply quit Prozac. Please reinstate and taper. It's not that difficult. See http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/759-tips-for-tapering-off-prozac-fluoxetine/

[Finn]

I didn't just quit. I was taking it every second or third day. But I dumped out like a third of the capsule's content before taking it this morning. That counts as tapering--although not very precisely.

[Finn]

No I don't know if that's a good idea. I think Prozac is making me very hostile, irritatable, angry, etc and taking away any concern I have for feeling or acting in such a way.

[Altostrata]

Please take a third of a capsule every day consistently for a month, then decrease slowly.

[Finn]

It's more like half a capsule. I'm just pouring it out, pretty inaccurate but efficient.

 

With Effexor, a lot of the symptoms of decreasing were physical--like headaches, dizziness, but with decreasing Prozac, it is definitely more emotional. Like I said a post up, I'm irritiable, easily annoyed and angered. I have motions when I sink into apathy and depression, but mostly, I'm just really sensitive so all my frustrations and insecurities are easily triggered. I've been trying to deal with it by telling myself it will pass, that this isn't me.

[Altostrata]

Rather than estimating, I highly recommend you make a liquid so you can more accurately measure your dosage. This is important. See http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/759-tips-for-tapering-off-prozac-fluoxetine/

[Finn]

Honestly, I don't know if I should take this as a sign or what. My appointment which was scheduled back in Jan. was cancelled due to snow/ cold. I had rescheduled it for tomorrow night, and guess what, it was cancelled again, due to snow. So, I'm like, do I reschedule or not. I never got the results of that MRI, and since I took it, I should get the results, but I don't really want to make another appointment because their office is usually booked well in advance, and I know my work schedule in advance, and my insurance only paid half of the cost for my last appointment leaving me to pay $75 dollars, which seems like a lot just to have her tell me that my MRI was fine (probably). Since I have the results of the MRI on disc, I'm thinking of finding another doctor who could read the scan images but who wouldn't cost as much because my medical coverage is better than my mental health coverage. Dunno what to do here...

 

Tapering-wise...I don't know, I seem to fluctuate. I am hanging at around 3mg now. Some days I have headaches, usually I have irritability and feel hyper-vigilant and anxious. As per the norm, I'm still flat. Mostly, the irritability bothers me because it scares me how I will respond if something triggers me when I'm feelings more irritable. I'm afraid of being out of control, I guess.

 

But on a positive side, I found a therapist who my insurance will pay for and that I like, so I'll be working with her. I informed her about my awful experience with antidepressants and how some of my current issues are affected by that and not just emotional disturbances.

[Finn]

Ugh, just to show how easily changeable I am--last week, I was fine, but this week, I feel like it is the end of the world for me and I simply cannot take one more moment. Maybe withdrawing is making me raw, maybe I just need to deal with everything I haven't been dealing with or maybe I really am hopeless cuz I can't exist with this crushing restlessness, uncertainty and feeling so vulnerable. \rantover

[Petunia]

I'm glad you found a therapist, that's good news.  If you are struggling with withdrawal symptoms, maybe you need to slow down your taper and make sure you are accurate with dosage.  As the dosage gets lower, many people find that symptoms start to increase and slowing down makes them more tolerable again.

 

I hope you have a better week.

[tezza]

Hi Finn,

 

I'm sorry you seem to be doing the roller coaster ride. It's awful, I know, but I really do think you'd benefit by making the liquid and taking a 'consistent' and 'accurately' measured dose.

 

Feel better soon!

[Finn]

Earlier today, I felt quite awful but seeing my therapist took the edge off the intensity of my feelings. It is sort of nice to reminded that my mental state isn't fixed but can change through positive interactions/ thinking about things differently.

 

Dang, I am ever dizzy, though.

[Altostrata]

Sympathetic company is soothing.

[Finn]

A week ago Monday, I went from the 3mg I'd been taking to none. There's been symptoms, but it isn't always that unbearable. I've been extremely self-aware, having trouble concentrating/ my mind seems to not understand or process things right (I had the same cognitive problem when I quit Effexor before switching to Prozac). I'm really impatient and easily upset. Mostly, it comes in bursts. I've hopeful it will get better with time since this was a low dose I stopped from.

[Altostrata]

Finn, I wish you had been more gradual in your final reductions. That 3mg represented 30% of your Prozac dose.

 

I hope all goes well for you.

[Finn]

When I was tapering the powder was getting everywhere...*whinewhine* I think it is the fact that I went from any dose to no dose that is causing the problem now.

 

It takes around two weeks for Prozac to completely eliminate itself from your system, right, so it is safe to assume that I might start getting the worst of withdrawal after being off for around two weeks?

[Meimeiquest]

My first psychiatric drug was Prozac. I stopped over a month, WD started at 6 weeks out (and I reinstated, it was over 20 years ago and I was clueless). I got off with no distress...over three years. If you go back on, remember it comes in a liquid.

[Finn]

I think my nervous system is so sensitive, WD symptoms come right away and/ or very soon after a change, even with Prozac. This past week has been really bad. When I mentioned I hadn't been doing so well over the weekend, a co-worker said they noticed I wasn't doing so well. So that's reassuring (not!). But I've worked 7 days straight, and my well-being is always worsened by the cyclical dip in estrogen. Dunno what to do except sleep as much as I can. I feel like my mind is dead...

[mammaP]

Sounds like you need a bit of TLC Finn, along with a bit of R&R. I hope

you can get some time off soon and have some me time to recharge your batteries.

Overwork does make things worse without a doubt!

[Finn]

I finally am off today! I'm planning on going to the gym and trying to relax. I say trying because it is very difficult to not constantly be on edge. I also haven't been able to see that therapist I started seeing because of my schedule the last three weeks. I don't mind working so much because it keeps my mind off other things and keeps me busy while I am feeling this awful. If I can't focus or think straight, I'd rather spend my time earning money than being restless and bored. Plus the thing that is sort of keeping me going is thinking that if I have enough money, I'll be able to move on to do stuff that makes me feel fulfilled again.

[Finn]

No real changes...just an update: I've been quite tired and really depressed. But like whenever I have to get up for work at 6am, I don't get anywhere near enough sleep so that could be to blame for the tiredness, but I've been so tired, I think either withdrawal or something else is worsening it. I don't have any insomnia, just fatigue--is that a thing?

[mammaP]

Sounds like it is withdrawal Finn, It's almost 4 weeks since you stopped the prozac  and

tapered quite quickly so I think if I were you I'd consider reinstating a tiny amount of prozac

to settle the withdrawal symptoms. Maybe just 1mg will help., it is available in a liquid and 

is quite cheap. It would be so much easier and more accurate than splitting capsules! 

[Lexy]

I hope u have open windows soon.

[Finn]

*sigh* I'm feeling weird, and it is quite worrisome. I'm always on edge as if I'm on the look out for something that is going to hurt me, like anxiety, except I'm also reading anxiously into situations that are neutral. I'm say I'm suspicious, but it is more like an amorphous, yet troubling observation. Before I went on the first antidepressant, it was symptoms of what is considered OCD that were really bothering me. I was obsessed with the notion that I was going crazy--like I read everything that happened to me as a sign that I was losing my mind. On the drugs, OCD didn't bother me nearly as much, but now the intrusive thoughts and obsessive, fear driven thought patterns are back.

 

I know it isn't helped by withdrawal, but this also to be my "natural" state. Before the medication, my life was a disaster, and while on it and trying to come off, the things that were upsetting me have only gotten worse. I feel trapped and disempowered, and being powerless and trapped are my biggest triggers. If I hadn't mentioned, I have a history of marginalization and (repeated) trauma. I am scared, and when I get panicky, I lose reason, which is what happens to me so often. What do I do? There isn't anyone in my life who is supportive and that can guide me to a safer place.

 

This got off track, but I'm just trying to say that whether it is from withdrawal or my emotional distress, I feel like the world is collapsing in on me, and I feel like I can never get out of this.