Angel9058 Mirtazapine (Remeron) troubles

[Angel7366]

Just a thought but when I CTed off citalopram I didnt feel any major withdrawal until 5 months after...I noticed you came off effexor in october..it could well be that you are feeling some withdrawal from the effexor and its not the remeron?

 

I don't know!

[Altostrata]

Yes, it probably is a culmination of previous drug effects that has made Angel hypersensitive to mirtazapine and dosage changes.

 

All you can do is work with this hypersensitivity.

[Iggy131313]

looking at your history honey, you had your panic attack in early 2011 after a few months of being off the effexor...was the effexor reinstated straight away and the benzos added also?

 

it would make sense that around the same timeframe you are feeling the w/d from the effexor once again, however you seem to be doing GREAT! I know it may not seem like it to you, but your doing really well, hold onto hope, listen to alto she knows ALOT.

 

thinking of you. x

[Angel7366]

I had a really bad day symptom wise today. But I couldn't believe it - I had a full evening window where everything lifted and I felt for the first time like pre-AD problems.

 

It will probably close tomorrow

 

Is this a sign that I may be beginning to stabilise?

 

Thanks

[dalsaan]

Yes that's a good sign. Try to remain fairly neutral about what may or may not happen. Investing in negative thoughts is an investment in worry and this is not good for your nervous system.

[Angel7366]

Thanks for the advice Dalsaan. It's just that I don't really know how you are supposed to feel if you are starting to stabilise.

[basildev]

Hi Angel,

 

I'm glad you experienced a window. These windows give us a little glimpse as to how our CNS is struggling to attain homeostasis.

 

It's a good sign. Remember that when you're in a wave, one of the most debilitating symptoms is the feeling that it will never get better.

 

If I were you, I'd copy this sentence and stick it somewhere you can see it every day.

[Angel7366]

Thanks so much for the encouragement. It means a lot. You have no idea how often I revisit my page to regain strength when things are at their worst.

[Angel7366]

Urgh! 3 weeks of RI. I spoke too soon on Iggy's thread. This morning was pretty good but this afternoon full of waves and I'm sitting in the airport waiting to take a flight feeling like cr.*#%p!

 

Just posting this on my thread for future reference.

[Meimeiquest]

Thinking of you, you've come so far! I 've had 2 truly awful flights in my life...one with an out-of-control child (long story), one in withdrawal. They lasted forever, but the plane landed both times. Trust it will for you too

[basildev]

Hang in there Angel

 

this too shall pass.

[Angel7366]

Well I made it!

 

But now I have another symptom - the most debilitating of them all - hopelessness and fear. I just can't shake it. I wish I could cry but I just don't seem to be able to.

 

I have read the Neurofear section and it has freaked me out even more! I just want to be able to live my life as I know it in spite of withdrawals and eventual tapering if I stabilise.

 

Any tips for remaining positive?

 

Mods please move this thread if it is in the wrong section?

[Angel7366]

It's been a terrible depressive wave. Now I've got the shivers. I am still obviously in acute withdrawal. Has anyone else had these symptoms?

[Angel7366]

I'm seeing a therapist tomorrow for help in dealing with the Mirt withdrawals. He also wants me to see his partner who does detox

 

Does anyone know what detox means In this context, if it's safe and whether it helps?

 

Thanks.

[basildev]

Hi Angel,

 

All of the symptoms you've described are common and to be expected in withdrawal.

 

I'm not sure what your therapist has in mind but if he's thinking you should 'detox' from your medication by quitting and then riding out the symptoms, then he doesn't understand withdrawal from psychoactive medications.

 

It's not a matter of just riding it out until the drug completely leaves your body as it is with some other drugs - as you already know, these medications make changes to the brain and this isn't going to be fixed with a detox.

 

If he wants you to talk to his partner to get emotional support/therapy then that's great - I say go for it. But be wary of making significant changes to your dosage at this stage. Your CNS needs consistency.

 

I'm so sorry Angel, you really are struggling and the only thing you can do right now is accept that this is where you are and be as present as you can with the symptoms as they arise and pass away.

 

Incredibly difficult I know - I'm trying to do this myself and I'm not always successful at it.

 

I hope you feel better soon. xx

[Angel7366]

Thanks so much Basildev. I can always count on your support and reassurance even though I must drive everyone nuts and am especially grateful since you are struggling too. I hope it passes quickly. The depressive wave was the pits and very frightening to feel so out of control.

 

I think one of my problems is, as Alto says, worrying and I need to learn to be more accepting and relaxed. I am hoping the therapist may help me with this.

 

Thanks also got your comments on the detox. No I definitely won't let him pull me off the medicine.

[Angel7366]

I do think my reinstatement is working. I am having better days amongst some severe moments. I am also finding therapy useful. They have armed me with lots of motivational stuff. Yesterday they got me to do a coffee enema to clear out my liver of toxins and that really helped. Today I had a wonderful detoxifying massage. So all good there.

 

However! In the past week I have started getting really bad insomnia it is as if the Mirtazapine is blocking off my sleep receptors and I cannot sleep at all. In fact I am lying awake in the middle of the night wearing this. I have tried Benadryl and Melatonin. They did not help. Last night I took a desperation Zopiclone and did manage to sleep but I don't want to make it a habit.

 

For those further down the line Is it likely my sleep will return at least partially? This is really distressing.

 

Thanks.

 

Angel

[Jemima]

I do think my reinstatement is working. I am having better days amongst some severe moments. I am also finding therapy useful. They have armed me with lots of motivational stuff. Yesterday they got me to do a coffee enema to clear out my liver of toxins and that really helped. Today I had a wonderful detoxifying massage. So all good there.

 

However! In the past week I have started getting really bad insomnia it is as if the Mirtazapine is blocking off my sleep receptors and I cannot sleep at all. In fact I am lying awake in the middle of the night wearing this. I have tried Benadryl and Melatonin. They did not help. Last night I took a desperation Zopiclone and did manage to sleep but I don't want to make it a habit.

 

What happens with Remeron, which is an extremely strong antihistamine, is that it eventually has a paradoxical effect. Instead of making a person sleepy it makes them hyper, or at least, overstimulated. Definitely do not take Benadryl to cope with this as it is also an antihistamine which can have a paradoxical effect.

 

For those further down the line Is it likely my sleep will return at least partially? This is really distressing.

At some point your sleep will go back to normal, although I can't give you a timeframe for when that will happen. Remeron is a very, very nasty drug. In the meantime, be sure to keep your bedroom as dark as possible and wear a sleep mask. It seems that being sensitized to antidepressants also makes for havoc with cortisol, the hormone which tells us when to wake, and any little bit of light can keep a person awake. Those two simple techniques helped me immensely in early withdrawal when I was able to sleep only every 36 to 48 hours. And once I was able to sleep, other withdrawal symptoms began to heal.

 

The following topic has some very helpful links regarding ways to cope with sleep problems:

 

Important Topics About Symptoms

[Angel7366]

Thank you for that Jemima.

[basildev]

Hey Angel,

 

I'm sorry you're struggling with sleeping. We should have a midnight insomniac's party!

 

Regarding this:

 

Yesterday they got me to do a coffee enema to clear out my liver of toxins and that really helped. Today I had a wonderful detoxifying massage. So all good there.

Please do try to steer clear of any kind of 'detox' treatment if you can. This can play absolute havoc with your CNS while in withdrawal and I wouldn't be surprised if these treatments contributed to your insomnia.

 

But...you will get better. Just remember, try to keep things consistent and don't introduce any new treatments unless you're sure they won't be stimulating to your nervous system.

 

I'm really glad you're having talk therapy and that it's going well.

[Angel7366]

Hi Basildev

 

Still awake. It's 5.30 am and not even a nano-second of sleep.

 

I didn't think the treatments may have affected me. I have been having total insomnia prior to the treatments though but I will take your advice and steer clear, you are right.

 

A buddy on another site is reducing her 7.5 mg Mirt over 3.5 months with the Back to Life programme. It essentially misses doses over that time. I don't know if this system is good or not but she seems to be doing well and a lot of people seem to get off this way. I am really envious. Sometimes I wish perhaps I would have continued with the cold turkey and got it over and done with. I wasn't sleeping then but I'm not sleeping now anyway.

[basildev]

I understand your frustration Angel

 

But your friend's physiology is completely different to yours so it's like comparing apples with pears.

 

And I think you already know that skipping doses is a really bad idea.

 

The detox probably didn't have any effect but you can't be too careful.

 

A couple of things I do to help my insomnia:

 

1) Never monitor time. It's frustrating and adds to your insomnia;

2) If I'm not asleep within half an hour I get up and do something. When I feel sleepy again I go back to bed.

 

The second thing has really helped me to avoid benzos. In the past if I hadn't gotten to sleep by 2AM I panicked and took a benzo. Now I just get up, go into my office and do something for half an hour or so.

[Angel7366]

Thanks Basildev but have you ever had complete insomnia?

 

This drug I am on forces the sleep mechanism open so no matter what you do you cannot sleep.

 

Honestly I am sorely tempted by the taper I mentioned. What awaits me at the end may be preferable to insomnia I look likely to get over the next couple of years. I have seen others at lower doses suffering very badly with insomnia.

[basildev]

Hi Angel,

 

you're right my situation is far different to yours in that I've never had complete insomnia.

 

So my suggestions might not work for someone in your situation.

 

But looking at your history you have 2 things at play - first, discontinuing Effexor and second, CT Remeron. Plus you have a long and complicated withdrawal history.

 

How long have you been holding on the 6.5 mg?

 

You only really introduced a stable dose of Remeron recently, so I'm not at all surprised you're getting these symptoms.

 

I believe you are experiencing a wave and I know it's discouraging. But it will get better.

 

I do not believe that choosing the alternate dose taper method is going to make things any easier for you.

[Angel7366]

I've been on 6.5 mg for almost a month. I hope that in another month I will be able to do my 10% drop.

 

Am not sure if the insomnia is a wave and will pass because from what I have read it is often something that plagues Mirt taperers throughout their taper.

 

Thanks a lot for your advice.

[Angel7366]

Since I am having so much trouble with the Mirtazapine insomnia what are your thoughts on my switching to another AD such as Amitrypline? Would this make it easier for me?

[strawberry17]

Hi Angel, I know insomnia is B***** miserable, I've had patches of it myself, lying awake all night feeling totally alert, but, I think switching to another drug would be a bad idea and would set you back again, your nervous system won't know if it's coming or going. Incidentally I was prescribed Amytriptyline by my doctor a few months ago for withdrawal insomnia, I did try the odd tablet but it did nothing for me anyway apart from giving me a horrible hangover the next day and I gave myself a talking to and decided it was a bad plan anyway.

[Angel7366]

Yes thanks Strawberry. I kind of suspected that and you are right. Having a bit of a desperate day with insomnia and akasthasia but have given myself a positive self- talk, got dressed and gone out. Tough times!

[Altostrata]

A COFFEE enema for someone who's having trouble sleeping?

 

Whoever recommended that to you has no common sense at all.

 

It could very well be that shot of caffeine is responsible for the bad time you're having now.

[Angel7366]

Yes that probably was a stupid idea and I didn't think! However I'd been having the total insomnia for a couple of days prior to that but the enema probably didn't help.

[Altostrata]

When you introduce a factor like that, it's hard to tell what will help.

 

I suppose you might reduce Remeron by a tiny amount, say .25mg, and see if it makes any difference.

[Angel7366]

Thanks for rhe advice Alto.

 

I just checked online re coffee enemas. Found some disturbing stuff about it. Why did I not do this before duh ! Re sleep disturbances - it did say it might have an effect if done after 5pm and I did mine in the morning. And, as I said, I have been having sleep problems in the past few days. Am still not on top form or anywhere near w/d wise. The physical symptoms have improved to a certain extent but now I am being hit with emotional ones plus this insomnia.

 

Re reducing to avoid insomnia - would this tiny decrease not destabilise me further?

[Altostrata]

Caffeine has a very long half-life, possibly days.

....

Re reducing to avoid insomnia - would this tiny decrease not destabilise me further?

 

That is the problem. What's causing the insomnia? We don't know because of the other factors. I suggested a tiny decrease because if the insomnia improves, it indicates that the Remeron is contributing, and is less likely to be destabilizing. Remeron has a noradrenergic component that can keep you awake.

[Angel7366]

Ok thank you Alto. Will try the decrease tonight

[Angel7366]

I look like a recovering heroin addict - really. Is it even possible to feel this ill from a CT?

[SaltedGingkoNuts]

I look like a recovering heroin addict - really. Is it even possible to feel this ill from a CT?

 

 

Yes. And I hear it's even easier to kick heroin . . .

 

Gee, thanks, Doc!

 

-Hang in There!!!

 

-Salted