ndmaar Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 I'm starting this topic on behalf of my friend. I've already pasted her story in my thread, so just copying. A tragic story. She has heavy OCD. She's uneducated in psychiatry and was relying on doctors. She was taking different psych meds on and off for like 10 years. This year she had a course of ECT. After that she was taking mirtazapine 45mg, paroxetine 20mg and risperidone 1mg for approximately 1,5 months. But she can't remember what meds she was taking prior to that, maybe partly to ECT, partly to other reasons. She stopped all of her tablets and attempted suicide on November 28th by strangling herself, it was unsuccessfull, severe nosebleed started and she was forced to stop. She went to psych ward herself. There they were giving her only paroxetine, after a week she went home and didn't take any meds. Interestingly, after a suicide attempt she felt a relief of her OCD symptoms and was feeling much better for nearly two weeks. Today she had a major breakdown, was feeling awful, worse than before suicide attempt. I believe that it is a WD. Is there something that can be done? Does she have to reinstate all the 3 meds she was taking earlier or only antidepressants or ...? A problem is - she is very suicidal again. It will be hard to convince her to wait for some time to stabilise, not to mention starting taper and so on. Thank you for any advice and input. I'm sorry to bring on such a sad topic. Feb2012-Nov2012 - flupentixol 1mg Nov2012-Jun2013 - amisulpride 50mg for 1mo, seroquel 300mg for 1mo, olanzapine 10mg for 4mo Jun 2013: CT olanzapine Jul 2013 - Oct 2013: mirtazapine 30mg Nov 2013: 4 week taper down to 0.1mg Nov 2013 - Feb 2014 - 0.1mg Feb 2014: updosed to 1mg March 2014 - now: updosed to 5mg and holding 25 years old Link to comment
Moderator Emeritus mammaP Posted December 11, 2013 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted December 11, 2013 The poor girl! Please tell her that this WILL pass. I was EXTREMELY suicidal on paroxetine, for me it was the worst thing ever. I made several attempts so can understand exactly how she is feeling. I also had ECT and many other drugs too, but I am here now and doing well. I can only tell you how things were for me, and what I feel would have helped me at the time. I needed TLC and was given drugs. I needed to grieve for my husband and was given ECT. My head is telling me to advise you to take her to hospital, my heart is screaming 'don't go there'. She is in pain, if she can cry, let her cry, it is healing. Hold her hand. Could she talk to a counsellor? The samaritans? Talking to someone on the phone helped me sometimes, and would give you a break. You need to take care of yourself too. Alto or one of the others with more knowledge of the drugs in question will be along to advse what to do with the meds. I wish I could make it all better, I can feel her pain and yours seeing her like this. **I am not a medical professional, if in doubt please consult a doctor with withdrawal knowledge. Different drugs occasionally (mostly benzos) 1976 - 1981 (no problem) 1993 - 2002 in and out of hospital. every type of drug + ECT. Staring with seroxat 2002 effexor. Tapered March 2012 to March 2013, ending with 5 beads. Withdrawal April 2013 . Reinstated 5 beads reduced to 4 beads May 2013 Restarted taper Nov 2013 OFF EFFEXOR Feb 2015 Tapered atenolol and omeprazole Dec 2013 - May 2014 Tapering tramadol, Feb 2015 100mg , March 2015 50mg July 2017 30mg. May 15 2018 25mg Taking fish oil, magnesium, B12, folic acid, bilberry eyebright for eye pressure. My story http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/4199-hello-mammap-checking-in/page-33 Lesson learned, slow down taper at lower doses. Taper no more than 10% of CURRENT dose if possible Link to comment
Moderator Emeritus mammaP Posted December 12, 2013 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted December 12, 2013 Hi Nagaqueen, how are things today? I hope she is a little more settled. I am so glad she has you, you remind me of my very very dear friend who held my hand when I was where your friend is right now. This morning she sent a txt inviting me to lunch and I am going to find something beautiful to take for her. Someone else will be along, the staff are from different parts of the world so some will be sleeping now. Hugs from MammaP **I am not a medical professional, if in doubt please consult a doctor with withdrawal knowledge. Different drugs occasionally (mostly benzos) 1976 - 1981 (no problem) 1993 - 2002 in and out of hospital. every type of drug + ECT. Staring with seroxat 2002 effexor. Tapered March 2012 to March 2013, ending with 5 beads. Withdrawal April 2013 . Reinstated 5 beads reduced to 4 beads May 2013 Restarted taper Nov 2013 OFF EFFEXOR Feb 2015 Tapered atenolol and omeprazole Dec 2013 - May 2014 Tapering tramadol, Feb 2015 100mg , March 2015 50mg July 2017 30mg. May 15 2018 25mg Taking fish oil, magnesium, B12, folic acid, bilberry eyebright for eye pressure. My story http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/4199-hello-mammap-checking-in/page-33 Lesson learned, slow down taper at lower doses. Taper no more than 10% of CURRENT dose if possible Link to comment
Sweetcreature Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 So sorry you are going through this ndmaar, MammaP is right, you must also look after yourself, you are a very good friend to even take the time to go on a forum to get advice. Are you in the UK? MammaP, just wanted to mention that I agree with you about the head versus heart thing about the hospital...a few days ago I too was suicidal and was asking my own mother to take me to hospital and am so so so glad she did not....instead she reassured me over and over and over...and told me 'Sweetcreature, this is a wave...' maybe that is what your friend needs ndmaar? Just my thoughts too on the Samaritans, if you are indeed UK based ndmaar - I am not so sure about how helpful they really are...(not meaning to disagree with you MammaP!) I myself have been on the phone to them twice in that last six weeks when feeling hopelessly suicidal and frightened out of my wits, they were very good at the listening part but seem to have NO knowledge on the effects of psychiatric drugs on some individuals..I found that I got a very 'blanket' response each time, and was told that depression was a brain disease (despite the ladies being very kind and lovely that is..) I reckon they are fed the same lines by their training providers as the rest of us have been about 'mental health' and as well meaning as they are they are they will likely point your friend towards hospital...but, then maybe that is the right place for her... I also called the Samaritans once PRIOR to SSRI's and one of the questions I was asked was 'have you been to your doctor?' (Something that at the age of 24 I had not considered...my usual way of dealing with low moods was to go jogging, shopping and eat chocolate which I had stopped doing, interestingly...) Now I'm not blaming that person - I of course need to take responsibility for my own choices, but just saying...in a way it could have been ONE of the seeds that was sown into my already fragile mind at that time, and reinforced the idea that the good doc would know what to do.....sorry to ramble. Oh Mdmaar, I feel for you and wish you and your friend well, SC x May 2001 - age 24 given 20 mg seroxat. Tried to reduce myself after a year. Told by GP to take on alternate days and I would be fine. FAIL. Assumed 'wrong time' due to university stress and that my 'depression' must be worse than I thought.Increased dose to 30 mg December 2002. Tried the same technique as before to reduce- made it down to a quarter tablet but couldn't stand symptoms, had a sneaking suspicion that it was due to tablets but never considered dependency - 'depression is a diseased brain after all' (is what I was told) Continued until October 2010 - tried to CT and managed to last five months - assumed the depression was really bad but had no understanding of the reason for awful anxiety. Ran back to GP started Prozac- went crazy thought I was going to die. Stopped Prozac after two weeks.April 2010 Started sertraline. Stablished but felt numbed.September 2010 Asked for seroxat again. Upped my dose to 30 after three weeks. Felt hyper, caffeinated, but functional. Glad to be over what I thought was 'depression'..Realised it is the meds, want to be free at last - July 2012 started 10% taper from original dose and took supplements. Took suppliments sporadically and despite the temptation the taper, wanted it 'over with'. Taper took exactly six months and 10 days.Reductions were as follows:First 2 weeks- 27 mgNext 2- 24mgNext 2- 21 mgNext 2- 18mgNext 2 15 mgNext 2 12 mg (held for four weeks due to house move from London back to Ireland)Next 2 weeks- 9 mgNext 2 weeks- 6 mgNext 2- weeks 3 mgNext 2 weeks 1.5 mg (held for 5 weeks as scared)10th February 2013 Jumped to zeroWithin 3 weeks sadness, led to anxiety. Restarted suppliments - helped a bit. Stressful move to London. A lot of fatigue and DEEP emotions. Crying LOTS. Took suppliments on and off, moved back to Ireland after being back in London for only eight weeks as felt too sad and unsettled. No suppliments when moved back. Unhappy at being back, scared I wouldn't ever find happiness - deep deep sadness, anger, STUPIDLY went back to doctor and decided I must just be a 'depressive'. Given Citalopram/Celexa 20mg. Took it for seven days, changed my mind, decided to be 'strong' and put it behind me. (No particularly adverse effects that I recall, save for day 5 having inner vibrations in arms and legs) Still had pack of tablets however and every time emotions got hard felt I had to 'go back onto tablets'. I did this from July until November. (On them off them on them off them) ........ Started to get body vibrations and told myself it was 'anxiety' and I was 'giving myself panic attacks. I continued to cry as I 'started' the tablets again and again - not wanting to go back there but not sure what else to do. More vibrations - but didn't make the connection that I had a compromised CNS - thought it was anxiety....chest started to pound in Sept, vibrations continued...lost weight, became anxious, sleep was awful and I tried a variety of remedies to replace the tablets and calm my anxiety and lift my mood. I think they made things worse. (These included, St.Johns Wort, Rescue Remedy, Homeopathic treatments, Chinese herbs, Passiflora, and suppliments from the online company who state they are experts in assisting people get off meds) Also did the following: Talking therapy Human Givens Therapy Homeopathy Narcotics Anonymous October 23rd took Citalopram (20mg) for 12 days - no relief November 6th Started Seroxat 10 mg (to be safe) stupidly upped to 20 the next day. Stayed on 20 for 18 days, no relief, stopped for two days suddenly, relief came - short lived, vibrations and torture came after 72 hours. Suicidal for days. Upped to 30 thinking it would improved. Even more suicidal. Dropped to 20 again (December 9th) not suicidal, but not better. Started liquid 28th December reduced to 18 mg in effort to reduce and stabilise. Don't know where to go from here. Living with parents who are supportive beyond words. Sweetcreature Link to comment
Moderator Emeritus mammaP Posted December 12, 2013 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted December 12, 2013 The samaritans are volunteers who know would not be trained to advise on meds and TBH if it were me BEFORE I learned the hard way. I would suggest the doctor too! You are right SC, they usually won't have a clue about meds or withdrawal. I think though, that in a crisis it can be helpful. Being so far down in the pit and alone with a bottle of pills in your hand, just a human voice on the phone can be the difference between swallowing the lot or putting them back in the cupboard! I hope you are both ok, Other options in the UK. http://www.breathingspacescotland.co.uk/bspace/CCC_FirstPage.jsp Freephone numbers http://llttf.com/ Has a panic button you can click for online help. **I am not a medical professional, if in doubt please consult a doctor with withdrawal knowledge. Different drugs occasionally (mostly benzos) 1976 - 1981 (no problem) 1993 - 2002 in and out of hospital. every type of drug + ECT. Staring with seroxat 2002 effexor. Tapered March 2012 to March 2013, ending with 5 beads. Withdrawal April 2013 . Reinstated 5 beads reduced to 4 beads May 2013 Restarted taper Nov 2013 OFF EFFEXOR Feb 2015 Tapered atenolol and omeprazole Dec 2013 - May 2014 Tapering tramadol, Feb 2015 100mg , March 2015 50mg July 2017 30mg. May 15 2018 25mg Taking fish oil, magnesium, B12, folic acid, bilberry eyebright for eye pressure. My story http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/4199-hello-mammap-checking-in/page-33 Lesson learned, slow down taper at lower doses. Taper no more than 10% of CURRENT dose if possible Link to comment
ndmaar Posted December 12, 2013 Author Share Posted December 12, 2013 She's been a bit better today, but not much, but yesterday she said she nearly went crazy how bad it was. mammaP, she's thanking you for warm words, understanding and concern. Your message really seemed to help her. It's sweet that you are going to meet your dear friend again. We're totally not in UK, but rather than in Ukraine. So, it seems samaritans are not an option, and I doubt they could have helped her. The same goes for hospital. It's not like only a wave, she's been suicidal for a long time already, and now she's taking drastic measures. But I believe there is hope. She felt much better for the last two weeks, so it proves that she can recover. Feb2012-Nov2012 - flupentixol 1mg Nov2012-Jun2013 - amisulpride 50mg for 1mo, seroquel 300mg for 1mo, olanzapine 10mg for 4mo Jun 2013: CT olanzapine Jul 2013 - Oct 2013: mirtazapine 30mg Nov 2013: 4 week taper down to 0.1mg Nov 2013 - Feb 2014 - 0.1mg Feb 2014: updosed to 1mg March 2014 - now: updosed to 5mg and holding 25 years old Link to comment
Moderator Emeritus mammaP Posted December 12, 2013 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted December 12, 2013 I am glad she is feeling a little better. I totally understand her not wanting to go to hospital, she's been through such a lot. If she can just hold on, each day, or even each hour, this will pass. She is obviously very sensitive to medication and it is only because of my own experience with paroxetine that I don't advise to reinstate, I know that it was that drug which made me suicidal but we are all different. Alto may disagree with me, she is the expert and I would trust her knowledge over mine! Many of us just cannot tolerate psychotropic drugs yet they are given to us one after another. Nagaqueen has had all those, plus withdrawals plus ECT so there is no wonder she is in crisis. I would not go to hospital or take anyone I love there unless it was a real life or death situation, and I couldn't physically keep them safe! IT WILL GET BETTER. I had a lovely lunch with my friend and I bought her some very special hand made chocolates to say thank you for being YOU 20 years ago, she held my hand and loved me like you are with your friend. I'm sure in 20 years time she will be thanking you too. **I am not a medical professional, if in doubt please consult a doctor with withdrawal knowledge. Different drugs occasionally (mostly benzos) 1976 - 1981 (no problem) 1993 - 2002 in and out of hospital. every type of drug + ECT. Staring with seroxat 2002 effexor. Tapered March 2012 to March 2013, ending with 5 beads. Withdrawal April 2013 . Reinstated 5 beads reduced to 4 beads May 2013 Restarted taper Nov 2013 OFF EFFEXOR Feb 2015 Tapered atenolol and omeprazole Dec 2013 - May 2014 Tapering tramadol, Feb 2015 100mg , March 2015 50mg July 2017 30mg. May 15 2018 25mg Taking fish oil, magnesium, B12, folic acid, bilberry eyebright for eye pressure. My story http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/4199-hello-mammap-checking-in/page-33 Lesson learned, slow down taper at lower doses. Taper no more than 10% of CURRENT dose if possible Link to comment
Administrator Altostrata Posted December 12, 2013 Administrator Share Posted December 12, 2013 ndmaar, you are a true friend trying to get help for your friend.It's very difficult to answer your questions. My guess is your friend has a history of going on and off psych drugs, probably with inadequate tapering on the advice of her doctors. So all of her recent history might be complicated by adverse reactions to drugs and withdrawal syndrome. She isn't here to give us the details. There they were giving her only paroxetine, after a week she went home and didn't take any meds. Interestingly, after a suicide attempt she felt a relief of her OCD symptoms and was feeling much better for nearly two weeks. Today she had a major breakdown, was feeling awful, worse than before suicide attempt. I believe that it is a WD. Did she feel better when she was taking paroxetine? It sounds like she might have withdrawal symptoms after quitting it. This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted. Link to comment
ndmaar Posted December 13, 2013 Author Share Posted December 13, 2013 My guess is your friend has a history of going on and off psych drugs, probably with inadequate tapering on the advice of her doctors. So all of her recent history might be complicated by adverse reactions to drugs and withdrawal syndrome. She isn't here to give us the details. Altostrata, yes it's exactly like that. And unfortunately, she can't give me much more details as well. And she is worse again today and taking alcohol. Did she feel better when she was taking paroxetine? It sounds like she might have withdrawal symptoms after quitting it. She got better the day after suicide attempt and felt like that throught the next week in the psych ward. Then on the December 6 she got out and it was the last day she took paroxetine in the morning. Two days later she already started to feel a bit worse, and on the December 11 it became totally bad. So it really could be paroxetine. I think as a first measure will try to get her back on paroxetine today. Feb2012-Nov2012 - flupentixol 1mg Nov2012-Jun2013 - amisulpride 50mg for 1mo, seroquel 300mg for 1mo, olanzapine 10mg for 4mo Jun 2013: CT olanzapine Jul 2013 - Oct 2013: mirtazapine 30mg Nov 2013: 4 week taper down to 0.1mg Nov 2013 - Feb 2014 - 0.1mg Feb 2014: updosed to 1mg March 2014 - now: updosed to 5mg and holding 25 years old Link to comment
Administrator Altostrata Posted December 13, 2013 Administrator Share Posted December 13, 2013 Drinking alcohol complicates symptoms immensely. If she goes back on paroxetine, you might suggest half a dose. A lot of times, this is enough to stop withdrawal symptoms. This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted. Link to comment
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