reachingforthestars Posted October 29, 2016 Posted October 29, 2016 Daisy, Your experience when on citalopram was likely due to adverse effects from the medication. How can you know that what Daisy experienced was likely this or that? Serotonin syndrome or wd syndrome cannot be measured but it doesn't mean they don't exist. Noticing the difference between adverse effects or serotonin toxicity also is hard. Maybe an adverse reaction and serotonin syndrome are the same thing? How can you tell the likeliness of what Daisy experienced? Do you have some statistics? Counterpoints: Serotonin syndrome is an adverse effect from the medication. How does the neurologist know what it was -- 4 months after the last dose of citalopram? I had to check the word "an adverse effect". I confused an adverse effect with side effect. It sounded to me that you were saying that Daisy did not likely had serotonin syndrome at all. My point is how can we make difference through internet between an adverse reaction or serotonin syndrome in her case? But now I understand that you only meant that what ever Cindy had it is very difficult to diagnose. I agree. Yes, neurologist cannot know anything about these drugs 100% like no one can. Serotonin syndrome is only diagnosed clinically from symptoms and no labs can measure it( if I have understood correctly). So basically I don't think it is impossible to neurologist to make a diagnosis only by listening symptoms afterwards. Of course it isn't 100% but I guess serotonin syndrome diagnose cannot anyway be 100% sure. Still I believe from my own experience that many neurologist seem to know little bit better about psych meds than most psychiatrists. Once again since my clumsy English: I thought at first that scallywag meant that Daisy likely had some other kind of adverse reaction but not serotonin syndrome. I think it is impossible for us(members and mods) to make difference or likeliness between an adverse reaction(not including serotonin syndrome) and serotonin syndrome in Daisys case (or in general). Now that I know better an adverse effect/reaction is an umbrella term and serotonin syndrome is a hyponym, right? Citalopram 40mg from 2003-2015 Jan 2015 started tapering first dropped to 35mg, Feb 30mg, March 25mg, April 20mg, May 17,5mg, June 15mg, July 12,5mg, Aug 12,5mg, Sep 0mg for 5 days because of stomac flu and after I raised to 7,5mg. All the symptoms of acute WD shaking, diarrhea, vomiting, barely could walk ect. Still didn't realize that it wasn't only stomac flu but I was also going through WD. Oct 2,5mg and crashed again badly and quickly raised to 4mg. It was then when I knew my symptoms were due to WD. Then in November after a month holding on 4mg raised to 5mg due to muscle weakness and had a VERY BAD reaction to reinstatement: akathisia(lasted for one or two weeks), insomnia, anhedonia... Drop quicly back to 4mg, Dec 3mg Jan 2016 2,6mg( in the middle of Jan after I had been on 2,6mg for a week I tried to updose to 2,8mg and immediately had bad reaction to it: akathisia for a day, andehonia got worse. The next day dropped back to 2,6mg), Feb 2,4mg( a new symptom PGAD lasted 24/7 for 2 months after that on and off), March 2,4mg, April 2,3mg, May 2,2mg, June 2,1mg, July 2,0mg( Pgad almost nonexisting, sleeping pretty good, still some anhedonia but there has been a lot of gradual progress), Aug 1,97mg-1,89mg, Sep 1,88mg-1,49mg, Oct 1,48mg- 1,70mg, Nov 0,65mg- current dose 0,5mg
Survivor1 Posted February 5, 2018 Posted February 5, 2018 I wanted to make this post as a source of general information about Serotonin Syndrome (SS), because it caused me such distress despite being on minuscule doses of certain drugs. Without going into detail, at one point I was on 50 mg trazodone, 2.4 mg mirtazepine, and 0.5 mg seroquel. As soon as I added the mirtazepine, I developed acute jerking, twitches, and alerting sensations. I suspected SS, but rallied on because I was able to sleep (also my doctor did not think it was SS due to the small doses of drugs I was on). After a while the torturous sxs forced me to d/c mirtazepine. SS sxs reduced by 50% and I knew I was on to something. At this point I was on 50 trazodone and only 0.5 seroquel. Yet the SS sxs were very strong (jerking, twitches, alerting sensations, sweating, tachycardia); the worst was insomnia at 2 hours sleep per night. I then decided to stop seroquel and within 3 days, all SS were gone. What is surprising is how little of the seroquel (along with the trazodone), was enough to bring on SS. SS is activated by one particular serotonin receptor subunit: 5HT2A. Many drugs and even supplements bind to this receptor. These include the usual SSRI's, SNRI's, TCA's etc. But also includes hydroxizine (the active ingredient in Benadryl), atypical antipsychotics, some antimalarial drugs, some antiretrovirals, and a few Parkinson's drugs. Even more surprising are the implication of OTC's like some cough medicines, and supplements such as 5HTP and even melatonin in SS, due to their affinity at this receptor. (I have seen many on this forum talk about the activation effect of Benadryl and melatonin.) Two things can cause SS: Too high a dose of one serotonergic drug, or even tiny doses of two or more such drugs. The latter is more insidious as one does not think of small doses of drugs to be the offending cause. In my case, I suffered with it for 14 months. Finally I am free of it. Everytime I see someone on this forum on two or more drugs that are serotonergic, and who complain of twitching, anxiety and the like, after dosing, I cringe. My doctor did not think it was SS because of the low doses of med that I was on. And I have a feeling that because many professionals don't realize the possibility of these drugs interactions that SS goes undiagnosed. And sadly, more drugs are added to alleviate the "side" effects, leading to even worse symptoms. I hope this post bring some clarity and attention to this issue. PAST Gabapentin: about 6 months in 2015, 300-900 mg, cold turkeyed Sept 2015 (at same time dc'd Klonopin) Klonopin: June 2014- Sept 2015; 1mg tapered over 6 mths, dc'd at 0.25mg, withdrawal hellish (perhaps because of concurrent dc of gabapentin) Mirtazepine: Jumped off at 2.4 mg. (stable in 8 months). Seroquel: June 14 - July 24, 2016, 25 mg alternate nights; smaller doses for shorter periods. Total use about 3 months Lamictal: March 19, 2018 - 1 mg; March 23 - 1.25 mg; April 6 - 2mg. Discontinued at 2 mgJuly 1, 2018 due to Steven Johnson Syndrome. CURRENT Supplements: Vit D, turmeric Naturethroid: 65 mcg for hypothyroidism Trazodone: Oct 2015 - June 2016; 75 mg tapered over 2 mths, intense w/d after 3 weeks. Reinstatement: 07/25/16 - 25 mg; updosed 08/03/16 - 50 mg; 10/01/16- 62mg; 03/24/17 dropped to 50 mg (stable in 2.5 months) Current psych meds: Trazodone 50 mg
FeralUrban Posted February 5, 2018 Posted February 5, 2018 I had serotonin syndrome from Venlafaxine plus Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation and sumatriptan. Went undiagnosed for 5 months with crippling toxicity. Explitives! 2002 to 2016 Venlafaxine ER 225mg. 2013 TMS treatments triggered nerve pain in face, arm, back. 2016 TMS round ending Feb 1 Central Nerve Pain and and sub-acute serotonin toxicity compounded by Imitrex. April-June tapered over 3 months from 225 to 0. Reinstated 6/20/16 21.5 nonER 2x day. 7/7/16-37.5mg; 7/17/16-36.6; 7/22/16-33.75; 8/22/16 32.6mg, 9/11/16-28.9mg, 9/25/16-25mg, 12/3/16-19.4mg, 12/18/16-18.5 holding. OTHER DAILY PHARMACEUTICALS: *Oxcarbazepine 150 mg 2x/day since mid 2015, *Naproxen 220mg 3x/day as an antidepressant and for pain since 2012, *Levothyrozine 75mcg since 2008 (hypothyroid), *Levothyronine 5 mpg 2x/day since 2012 (hypothyroid) *montelukast SOD 10 mg for asthma since 2014, Advair 250/50 2x daily, [DX 11/16 Felodopine 5mg since 2006,DX combivent 8/1/16]. *MEDICAL MARIJUANA for neuropathic pain:CBD oil 25 mg 3-4 x day, THC tincture a few drops: 1/4 tsp 0-3x/day, vaporize CBD for breakthrough pain, CBD concentrate for severe pain. PRN MEDS *Valium 5 mg PRN up to 4/day for muscle spasms, usually 1-2 x/ day. *Low dose Ketamine nasal spray for severe pain, and also finding 1 dose calms bad WD quickly. HERBAL TINCTURES: burdock, lobelia, turmeric, white willow. CURRENT SUPPLEMENTS: *Methylated B vitamins, *Vitamin D 5000 iu, Alpha Lipoid Acid, Neti pot. [DX 6/13/16 promethazine suppository + 2 OTC Benadryl for severe pain N Acetyl Cytine for asthma. 1992-2002, over 20 different psych meds. 2012-2016 Eliminated 7 meds 1 at a time DX Plaquenil DX Spironolactone DX Lunesta, DX Ativan, + others
Administrator Altostrata Posted April 27, 2018 Administrator Posted April 27, 2018 https://www.uspharmacist.com/article/drug-induced-serotonin-syndrome Drug-Induced Serotonin Syndrome Charles H. Brown, MS Pharm, RPh, CACPProfessor Emeritus of Clinical Pharmacy Purdue University College of Pharmacy West Lafayette, Indiana US Pharm. 2010;35(11):HS-16-HS-21. A potentially lethal condition, serotonin syndrome (SS) is caused most often when certain antidepressant agents are taken concurrently with other drugs that modulate synaptic serotonin levels.1,2 When patients take two or more antidepressants from different pharmacologic classes, drug-drug interactions may occur; these interactions may lead to potentially severe serotonin toxicity, or SS. This syndrome was first described during the 1960s in studies of monotherapy and combination therapy with antidepressant medications. In a review of suspected SS cases from physician office-based practices, inpatient hospital visits, and emergency room visits, the Toxic Exposure Surveillance System found that selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) caused significant toxic effects in more than 8,000 people, leading to more than 100 deaths.2.... The incidence of adverse drug reports with SSRIs has continued to increase as more serotonergic drugs have become available.4,5 The true incidences of SS and associated morbidity are likely unknown. Also, SS may be underdiagnosed. Some reasons for this are that SSRIs are not the only contributing class of drugs; SS symptoms can range from mild to severe and may be nonspecific; diagnostic criteria vary; and some clinicians are unfamiliar with the condition. It has been suggested that more than 85% of physicians are unaware of the existence of SS or of which drugs or drug combinations are capable of causing it.5 In addition, mild SS symptoms may be ignored or not attributed to drug therapy. Polymedicine is pandemic in our society, and the incidence of SS may be on the rise. A wide variety of medications have the potential to elevate serotonin levels in the body. When these agents are combined, the risk of SS increases. Causative Agents SS may occur when central and peripheral serotonin receptors are overstimulated through the action of antidepressant medications or drugs of abuse.4 Both drug factors and patient factors can contribute to the toxicity of SSRIs in some individuals. Drug classes implicated include antimigraine agents; triptans (e.g., sumatriptan); antidepressants (e.g., SSRIs, serotonin norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors [SNRIs], buspirone, tricyclic antidepressants, monoamine oxidase inhibitors [MAOIs]); antipsychotics; anticonvulsants; antiparkinsonian agents; analgesics (e.g., meperidine, tramadol); OTC products (e.g., cough and cold medication containing dextromethorphan); herbal products (e.g., St. John's wort [Hypericum perforatum]; and the antibiotic linezolid.6-13 Mild SS episodes have been reported when St. John's wort or triptans have been used concurrently with SSRIs, SNRIs, or tricyclic antidepressants (e.g., amitriptyline). More severe SS episodes have been reported with the use of an MAOI with other serotonergic drugs (e.g., SSRIs, SNRIs).14,15 .... SS typically occurs when a patient takes two or more drugs that elevate serotonin levels through different mechanisms, but the syndrome can occur with the use of individual agents.16 Mechanisms that cause SS include increased serotonin production, inhibition of serotonin reuptake, inhibition of serotonin metabolism, increased serotonin release, and stimulation of serotonin receptors.16 Certain drugs may affect serotonin levels through more than one mechanism. Mechanisms of action and their causative agent(s) include the following: Increased Serotonin Production: One substance that increases serotonin production is the dietary supplement L-tryptophan. This serotonin precursor has been implicated in SS.4,17,18 Inhibition of Serotonin Reuptake: Drugs that inhibit serotonin reuptake include chlorpheniramine; cyclobenzaprine; dextromethorphan (e.g., Robitussin DM); meperidine; methadone; pentazocine; sibutramine; SSRIs (e.g., citalopram, escitalopram, fluoxetine, fluvoxamine, paroxetine, sertraline, venlafaxine); St. John's wort; tramadol; trazodone; and tricyclic antidepressants (e.g., clomipramine, imipramine). Clomipramine and imipramine have relatively high serotonergic activity compared with amitriptyline, which inhibits serotonin reuptake to a lesser degree.4,5,16,18-21 Inhibition of Serotonin Metabolism by MAO: This category includes isocarboxazid, linezolid, methylene blue, phenelzine, selegiline, and tranylcypromine.4,17-19,22,23 Increased Serotonin Release: Some drugs that increase serotonin release are dextromethorphan, meperidine, methadone, methylenedioxymethamphetamine (also known as MDMA or ecstasy), and mirtazapine.4,19,21,24 Stimulation of Serotonin Receptors: Drugs that stimulate serotonin receptors include buspirone; dihydroergotamine; lithium; lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD); meperidine; metoclopramide; and triptans (e.g, sumatriptan).4,19,24,25 SS also can occur when the metabolism and elimination of a serotonergic drug are altered; e.g., some SSRIs inhibit the metabolism of tramadol by CYP2D6 inhibition and may increase serotonergic activity.26 Clinical Signs and Symptoms Clinical symptoms of SS typically develop within 2 hours of an increase in dose or the addition of a serotonergic drug.19,27 About 67% of affected patients present with symptoms within 6 hours of medication initiation, change in dose, or overdose. Approximately 75% of affected patients experience symptoms within 24 hours.4,28 The clinician must be proactive to identify early symptoms of SS--e.g., cognitive changes--when they occur. Confusion about symptoms may be responsible for the difficulty in assessing the actual incidence of SS.24 Agitation is a cardinal symptom of SS, and it occurs to some degree with most SSRIs.27 .... A triad of clinical features characterize SS: 1) cognitive or mental-status changes (e.g., agitation, confusion, delirium, hallucinations, hyperactivity, hypervigilance, hypomania, pressured speech); 2) neuromuscular abnormalities (clonus [spontaneous, inducible, or ocular], hyperreflexia, increased muscle tone and spasms, restlessness, rhabdomyolysis, rigidity, shivering, tremor); and 3) autonomic hyperactivity symptoms (diaphoresis, diarrhea, fever, flushing, hypotension or hypertension, increased bowel sounds, mydriasis, increased respiratory rate, tachycardia, tearing).4,17,29,30 Mild SS may have a more subacute or even chronic presentation. In such cases, symptoms might be dismissed by clinicians or not attributed to the medication.4 A patient who presents with rapidly increasing temperature and muscle rigidity should probably be considered a medical emergency, as progression to multiorgan failure can occur within hours.27 Two serotonergic drugs do not need to be administered concurrently to cause SS; the syndrome can occur up to 6 weeks after discontinuation of just one such drug with a long-acting dosage form, like fluoxetine (Prozac, Sarafem) or an MAOI (e.g., isocarboxazid, phenelzine).17 Concurrent use of medications that interact with serotonergic drugs, thereby resulting in inhibition of the CYP450 metabolic pathway, can also contribute to SS.31 In this regard, caution should be observed when a patient is taking an SSRI in addition to a CYP2D6 inhibitor or a CYP3A4 inhibitor: SSRIs are extensively metabolized in the liver by these isozymes, and some patients lack the capacity to metabolize certain drugs. One of the key enzymes involved in adverse drug reactions--the CYP2D6 system--has a high degree of genetic polymorphism.32 A study reported on four elderly patients who apparently developed SS as a result of an interaction between tramadol and mirtazapine.33 These patients presented with auditory and visual hallucinations, myoclonus, hypertension, and behavioral changes. Tramadol is reported to be subject to genetic polymorphism, and about 7% of white patients are poor metabolizers of drugs metabolized by CYP2D6.34,35 Consequently, these patients would have higher serum levels of tramadol and would be at increased risk for SS if a second serotonergic agent were added to the drug regimen.34 Treatment In general, treatment of SS first involves discontinuing the offending drug(s) and providing the patient with supportive care. Many mild-to-moderate SS cases are self-limiting and usually resolve within 24 to 72 hours.19 Resolution of more severe cases will likely take much longer. In such cases, supportive care, drug discontinuation, and administration of medication (e.g., diazepam 5 mg IV to reduce hypertonicity and neurologic excitability) may be sufficient to resolve mild symptoms.2,13,36 Patients with severe symptoms may need sedation, paralyzation, and intubation. Administration of drugs with serotonin antagonist properties, such as cyproheptadine and chlorpromazine, has been utilized in a few patients.4,16,18 Cyproheptadine 4 mg orally is the most widely used antidote for SS.36 Although increased body temperature is common in patients with severe SS, antipyretic therapy usually is not recommended. This is because the fever that occurs with SS is caused by excessive muscular activity, not a change in the hypothalamic temperature set point.2 .... This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted.
Fightingawar Posted May 17, 2018 Posted May 17, 2018 Well my story is that my heart rate and blood pressure went sky high and I had hyperactive reflexes the ER doctor diagnosed me with Serotonin Syndrome I was taking Clomprimine with no changes and no add on serotonin medication I had been on it for 2 years. Well they abruptly stopped the clomprimine and here I am 10 weeks later in severe withdrawals. They have wanted to start me on a low dose of a different antidepressant but I am terrified can I stil take antidepressants with out it coming back? Did I even have it in the first place? If I don’t reinstate something how will I get through this especially with my anxiety so high I can do barely anything? My psychiatrist is like the rest of them she doesn’t have a clue bless her heart. I’m so lost as to what to do because I don’t want to keep suffering but I have kind of developed like PTSD from all of this. I just want to heal but to me it’s hard with no direction 😔 Ativan- Currently taking 3.17 mg 6x a day for 4 years currently doing a liquid taper Anafranil- 125 mg was on for 2 years, 2016-March 2018 off only in 2 weeks my last dose was March 6 Metoprolol-50mg twice daily for 2008-now Prilosec-40mg once daily 2013-now Singular-10mg once daily 2013-now Magnesium-300mg 6 months
Fightingawar Posted May 17, 2018 Posted May 17, 2018 So I just got off Skype with Dr. Ken Gilman and he said he is 100% certain I did not have serotonin syndrome, and according to him it is very difficult to get it. Seemed like I nice guy but definitely didn’t agree with me as far as withdrawals go 🤦🏼♀️ Ativan- Currently taking 3.17 mg 6x a day for 4 years currently doing a liquid taper Anafranil- 125 mg was on for 2 years, 2016-March 2018 off only in 2 weeks my last dose was March 6 Metoprolol-50mg twice daily for 2008-now Prilosec-40mg once daily 2013-now Singular-10mg once daily 2013-now Magnesium-300mg 6 months
Administrator Altostrata Posted May 17, 2018 Administrator Posted May 17, 2018 Fightingawar, did you read our discussion about this in your Intro topic? It is unlikely you had serotonin syndrome. As we discussed, most likely something changed that caused you not to properly metabolize the clomipramine. Your symptoms are more like excessive serotonin (toxicity). Please read recent posts in your Intro topic and answer the questions I put there. Doctors are not clear about what serotonin syndrome is and quite frequently misdiagnose it, because they don't understand how one can take too high a dose of an antidepressant and suffer adverse effects short of serotonin syndrome. Very few physicans know a bean about withdrawal syndrome. This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted.
Fightingawar Posted May 17, 2018 Posted May 17, 2018 I know but I needed to make sure because that’s very serious, but I still don’t know if I should reinstate everyone says it’s been 10 weeks that I should just keep going if I knew there was light soon I would just keep fighting. Ativan- Currently taking 3.17 mg 6x a day for 4 years currently doing a liquid taper Anafranil- 125 mg was on for 2 years, 2016-March 2018 off only in 2 weeks my last dose was March 6 Metoprolol-50mg twice daily for 2008-now Prilosec-40mg once daily 2013-now Singular-10mg once daily 2013-now Magnesium-300mg 6 months
Administrator Altostrata Posted May 18, 2018 Administrator Posted May 18, 2018 3 hours ago, Fightingawar said: everyone says it’s been 10 weeks that I should just keep going Everyone's been saying that? I don't think so. I and the mods have been putting a lot of effort into trying to figure out a reinstatement for you in your Introductions topic. This topic is going off-track. Please put further questions or updates in your Introductions topic. This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted.
Dee12h Posted April 8 Posted April 8 On 10/5/2016 at 2:23 AM, reachingforthestars said: Here's a story of drug toxicity: https://www.madinamerica.com/2016/10/pills-steal-generations-lives/ The question is how do we know one is having toxic reaction to psyche drug? I was on 40mg Citalopram without side effects for 12 years but last autumn when I came down to 4mg and updosed to 5mg I had similar symptoms of serotonin syndrome. Could it be possible that my receptors have become so sensitized that they just take all in like they have lost the ability to regulate SSRI or serotonin the way they used to and that's why I ended up on toxic levels of serotonin? Could it be the reason why so many have had a bad reaction to updosing or reinstatement after long hold or being off of the drug for long time? This is my question. From what I understand, the receptors upregulate when reducing our dosage (in order to get more, since they’re used to having more), just like they downregulate when we start meds or up the dose. If they upregulate too much or too rapidly, it seems it could cause these symptoms. I just went up from .06 to .07 mg lex, and am feeling all these “too much serotonin” symptoms (although of course not full blown ST). It’s very uncomfortable. This upregulating is why I wonder if too slow a taper could make it worse for some people. (I also don’t get, if only 5-10% of my receptors are affected by changes at this dose range, why I feel just like I did the day I started my 2nd round of lex in college & took 10mg. 🤷🏻♀️🤷🏻♀️) May 2019 started lexapro 2.5 mg; 2020 went to every other day; 2021 beginning of Mar, tried to stop but had insomnia; Mar 30, 2021 reinstated 1.25 ev other day, WD symptoms, not enough April 19, 2021 started liquid, .85 mg/day; May 1, 2021 .8 mg, May 6 .75 mg; June 6 .7 mg, June 20 .65mg, June 30 .6mg, Jul 24 .55 mg, Oct 17 .5 mg, Dec 5- .45 mg; Jan 26, 2022- 4mg, April 18- .375 ; April 24- .35; April 29- .3; Jun 12- .25 mg; Jun 28- .2 lex; Sept- .15 mg, Nov .1- long hold, never got better June ‘23- PPPD started 🙁, Jun- .09, Jul- .08, Oct- .07, Dec- .06, Jan ‘24- .05! Played around with my dose since Feb & became very unstable w/ extreme acute WD symptoms. Holding @ .06 since May 13. Taking Magnesium, melatonin, & electrolytes
RyanL3w Posted September 7 Posted September 7 On 7/9/2012 at 12:38 AM, dalsaan said: Dr Gillman has interesting things to say about Mirtazapine. He argues that it has no effect on seratonin/noradrenalin and that the data supporting its use as a AD is false. He basically said there is no data supporting seratonin toxicity for Mirtazapine in high doses and therefore the proposed mechanism of action is B***hit. On this basis, any beneficial outcomes are probably the result of the antihistamine effects on sleep - more sleep, feel better than you did before. Thanks for your poitn re Mirtzapine, really interesting read. As im on Sertraline and Mirtzapine at least gives me some hope i wont get Serotnin syndrome. https://www.psychotropical.com/mirtazapine-a-paradigm-of-mediocre-science/ 1. 25/8/11 - Prescribed 25mg Sertraline for generalised anxiety (mainly revolving around obsessive need to go to the toilet). 2. 4/10/11 - 50mg Sertraline (circa 3 years) 3. 23/1/15 - 100mg Sertraline (circa 4 years) 4. Oct 19 - 125mg Sertraline 5. 5/6/22 - Taper 125mg to 0 Mg Ends April 24 6. July 24 to now - Sertraline 25mg, Mirtazapine 15mg (Sertraline 13 years and counting, Mirtazapine 3 months and counting)
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