Simon: Introduction

[LoveandLight]

So sorry that you felt so bad you felt this is the only way out.

 

But I am so impressed by how you have communicated with your doctor! It is very inspiring and maybe things will start to change in regards to psychiatric drugging and doctors doing more than just blindly writing prescriptions.

 

My doctor is going along with everything I ask..she knows what dose I'm on and how I want to go about things. This is encouraging in one way, as I feel that I have some control back at long last but also frightening and discouraging in another as the willingness for the doctor to 'follow my lead' reinforces how little they actually know.

[Frustrated]

I think you are lucky your doctor is open minded to some extent Joannad.  Mine patronizes me and snickers and shakes his head.  He treats me like I am a stupid crazy woman thinking the meds are causing issues with my son and I.  He really thinks he knows what he is talking about.  IDIOT!  Simon I am sorry you continue to have such issues.  My thoughts are with you.  Prayers too.

[simon]

My computer hasn't been connecting to the internet for the last couple of days, hence not making any replies. Many thanks Joannad, F and Jan.

Yes my GP does seem genuinely determined to eventually bring down this drug burden to one. At least at that point  I may be able to take a breath of fresh air.,and take stock.

But stability is the name of the game now. Ive just gone onto150 Ven (feels like heresy saying that on this site.) Doesn't actually feel very different at present,except that I managed to watch most of a film on TV  last night, so I guess my concentration is being affected just a tiny bit. I thought I was feeling very 'wired', yesterday (1st day on the full dose) and that I was in for a sleepless night. But I got a full night in thankfully. Cant concentrate enough to read though , so the days are very long and monotonous at present!

My thinking is very shallow and I get feelings  of panic when I cant recall often the simplest thing (things I know that I know). it all feels so permanent, like brain damage but guess ive been here before and got out of it.

Still got 'suicidal ideation' as the psychs would say, that's to say a sort of crazy bottom line, that if things get so bad..... many of you will know what I mean.

Family-wise, unless I can come to some more permanent feeling of healing I don't think we can go on living together. When I am like this I put far to much pressure on spouse and its not fair. We go round in circles about causes and cures and it doesn't get anywhere in the end. The truth probably lies somewhere in between  on the one hand ,blaming the drugs and on the other, needing the drugs because of some kind of deficiency.

I can say with certainty though, that over the last 7 years on this cocktail my mental powers have diminished alarmingly. This in turn effects my self image, confidence, social relations, and work. Whats weird though, is that during those 7 years I tend to be in denial about whats happening in these areas, not admitting to myself that things are going downhill. I sort of choose to ignore it, to pretend that all is well when it isn't. (I understand what Breggin means by 'spell binding'.

Im glad Joannad that you have your GP on board and I know what you mean by the slight unease at sensing the lack of knowledge from the 'professional'. I sensed this from the psych I saw, who in effect came up with about 4 solutions during 2 consultations. Its a change of attitude rather than necessarily a change of science I think. But im sure there are exceptions to the rule. My daughter was telling me that her doctor shows patients how to make liquid solutions, and provide syringes for doing gradual tapers off drugs.

[dalsaan]

'needing the drugs because of some kind of deficiency'

 

That's your heresy, science doesn't even believe this now and it has always been a convenient/highly profitable 'truth' for prescribers.

 

It's your choice what you believe, no point me engaging with it

 

All the best

 

Dalsaan

[simon]

The point im making Dalsaan is that's the rift between my spouse and me. Im not saying that's what I believe. Im with you and the others on this forum. I totally take the point that there never was a chemical imbalance that needed to be put right.

Im not expecting encouragement for the step ive taken, but would rather not be pushed further into the mud by comments like this.

For better or for worse I now have to live with the decision ive taken as a means to an end. I'm hoping this will only be a temporary measure.

Simon

[simon]

Dalsaan, I get the feeling that you feel the need to reiterate the point about not updosing or changing drugs, as a warning to others using the site.

What you need to realize is that everyone has their breaking point and you cant possibly know what others go through in this battle to get well.

I took the decision and I now have to live with it for better or for worse.

If you prefer me to not post on this site for fear of putting others off, then tell me. From what ive gathered so far, I am free to log my journey through this nightmare. Im not suggesting to anyone else that they do the same , far from it. But I would still like to have the freedom here to explain and to get a few thoughts over from this bruised brain of mine.

I admire your own resolve to stay on course and that of so many others here.

Simon

[dalsaan]

Simon

 

The point I challenged was the construction of antidepressants a remedy to some kind of deficiency. That feeds into the chemical imbalance theory which is what got many of us here in the first place, it's what some doctors still use to explain withdrawals when people reduce or stop medication and it's how many AD users still understand their issues. It's also totally discredited

 

Touting that is actually listed under the things that will get you banned. I didn't want to say that to you because I am still happy for you to post here but your thread is public so I challenged that point. I believe I did it respectfully. I understand you are struggling and have reacted to what I said so I apologise. I can't engage with your choices but I do wish you all the best.

 

Dalsaan

[simon]

Yes, I accept your point, Dalsaan. I'm certainly not espousing the course that I took for anyone else and I see that you have to make that clear to others as its against the policy of this forum.

I'll just have to see what happens in the days and weeks ahead

Its a massive struggle and one I have never engaged in before and completely new territory for me. You have to see that, if I had not gone ahead with changing meds, then all decisions would probably have been taken out of my hands.

Perhaps it was a big mistake to admit that I had made a suicide attempt. I was very scared by what I did and couldn't keep it to myself. But once said,then those around me including my GP have to take action. So by making the admission I guess I have brought it on. Maybe I will live to regret that.

Its very hard to see loved ones suffering due to my suffering and to them it just looks like I am being stubborn and arrogant.

Im trying to see what I have done as taking one step back in order to then stabilize before moving forward again.

If I seem to make any statements that go against policy, then let me know first before banning me. You have to see that at the moment even writing this is difficult and I don't want to accidently incriminate myself. My whole thinking is not clear.

I now see that my GP is much nearer to my position than in the past. You could of course say that this is just a tactic to placate me and make me feel supported. That is a possibility. I choose to believe that he is being genuine. The whole position of polydrugging is discredited around here and he has promised to support me in reducing my medication. Hes already moved from the stance that he took back in the summer,when he suggested coming off Cit in4-5 weeks, and now accepts that that is not a possible timescale. So people are open to change and im prepared to go along with people like that.

[mammaP]

Simon could you update your signature with the latest addition? Did your doctor remove any of the 

others or just add the vanlafaxine? 

[JanCarol]

I see a huge miscommunication here.  While preaching and proselytizing "chemical imbalance theory" can get you banned from SA, I don't think Simon was saying that.

 

I think he was saying that he's up against the dominant medical paradigm and trying to get stable.  We've all had to fight for what we believe, in different ways.  It took me 6 months of study before I came to a place which was, "It doesn't matter if I'm genetically or chemically like this - I can be unhappy without the drugs, too."  And what has happened, lo and behold, is that on less drugs, I'm happier.  But it took time.  And we all have to start from where we are.

 

His doctor (and wife) says "chemical imbalance," Simon says, "I'm with SA."  I don't see any need to throw the word "banned" around to someone who is struggling, and on the edge of what he can stand.   You can refer him to the rules, if you think that might help.  I know, I'm not a mod, I'm nobody, that's just the way I see it.

 

And Simon, I don't think that Dalsaan said "banned" about your updosing or changing drugs.  Not at all.  S/he was just pre-empting a discussion of the "chemical imbalance theory" or "needing the drugs because of some deficiency."  Updosing and changing drugs happens all the time in here.  And just because you have chosen that, doesn't imply that you are recommending it.

 

Having your wife touting the dominant medical paradigm doesn't help.  Can she read?  Would Anatomy of an Epidemic be something she could wrap her brain around, and maybe begin to understand?  Or, if that's too long or expensive, "The Icarus Harm Reduction Guide to Coming of Psych Meds" (where I started with my providers) is a short, free read that explains a lot in plain english - but - she - like most doctors - may not respect it because it's a peer document, not a medical one. 

 

You're in a tough place, and I want you to know I'm pulling for you.  I want you to know that you count and matter in this world.  Hang in there, and please don't be afraid to come back.

[Frustrated]

Keep your chin up Simon. Jan carol is right and I am rooting for you too.

[wantrelief]

I am so very sorry you have been feeling so badly, Simon.  I hope you get some relief soon and the support you need at home.  I am rooting for you too! 

[LoveandLight]

I'm sorry too simon. After being on the edge yesterday and feeling I cannot endure it, I was going to go to the doctor knowing full well the only answer is more med. but if that's what it takes for the moment then it is surely better than the alternative.

 

Hoping you feel more stable again soon.

[simon]

Yes, what I was expressing was the 2 opposing view,. mine and my wife's.

I wouldn't have spent the last 4 months on this site if I didn't share its beliefs.

I make every attempt to get these views across and am hoping that my GP will either read or view, Joanna Moncrieff, who I think puts the case in a very clear and measured way, without the overkill of some others. Maybe its a cultural thing, but being from this side of the atlantic shes probably more acceptable to the slightly calmer , reserved ways of the British. ( I mean that in the most charitable way-just that some of the American videos on the subject can easily be a turn-off to the audience here. Also the fact that shes part of the council for evidence-based psychiatry, and 'evidence-based' is a thing that goes down well with the medical profession. When I last saw my doc. he took my details of her, and so I guess if hes had the time, at least he will know where im  coming from.

Dalsaan, I hope you understand my stance. Its made me realize how important all this is to you and the other mods. Also, know that at times like these, people are not at their best in explaining clearly whats going on, so there are bound to be the odd misunderstandings.

Thankyou, Jan for your imput and also to F and WR.plus Joannad (you must have been writing at the same time as me, all the best with you appointment.)

Simon

[LoveandLight]

Joanna moncrieff, forgot about her. I don't have an appointment, I managed to hold on for now at least. But I'm going to make an appointment just to talk about all this and take bundles of info, studies.

[simon]

When you've been on Ads for a long, long period as I have and want to come off or at least get down to low doses, I now understand that there is often a price to pay in the pain of WD and for some protracted WD. Lots of people on this site attest to that. I am hardly at the beginning of the process but keep wondering,in addition to the possible pain, what the new me would be like without those ADs.

I was watching a video showing Will Hall and Louise Delano and others at a sort of conference in a cabin in the woods somewhere! It was all about the experiences of people who had got off drugs and how they were fairing. One woman, was expressing the view that, having been on drugs since the age of 17 and now in her early 50s, she was now off, but still felt in some respects (she didn't really elaborate) like the 17 year old her. She was having to learn new skills I guess and deal with new emotions  that had been suppressed by the drugs. She seemed quite open and optimistic albeit rather nervous about moving forward.

 

I think that , while I have been polydrugged for the last 7 years, some emotions, like empathy, feeling sadness, really getting alongside someone else in pain have been replaced by a sort of blanket fear; maybe provoked by these situations being too close to home, that in me they might lead to 'depression' so best to avoid them. Also, instead of feeling certain emotions, I pretend, or express what is expected of me instead of it coming from a genuine feeling within. I hate all this , as it was not always so.

When I temporarily came off Cit. back in the summer, I had no withdrawal symptoms and really felt a new lease of life and recognised some genuine emotion welling up in me from time to time.(then it all went pear-shaped)

 

But what I wanted to ask was, do people feel rather 'strange' as these emotions resurface and can it lead to a feeling of not knowing who you are?

Quite honestly I don't know who I am now in many ways, ie what is me and what is the drug.? But can the re-emerging emotions be unsettling, like anger, envy, frustration, those things that have been calmed or tamed by the drugs?

[dalsaan]

All good questions. I think we have to reconnect with who we are and discover who we are becoming. This far along I can see the old me re-emerging as well as bits of me that are new. I still have parts that are medicated me. Those are bits that I can look at and say I don't want to be like that.

 

I think it's challenging to really feel again but exciting too. Like everything in wd, I think it's about recognising what's going on and engaging it gently rather than investing very heavily or getting caught up in what's going on. Avoid trying to nail things down, bring more of a sense of wonder. I've actually found an opportunity in this emerging me to try new things I never thought I would try.

 

D

[simon]

Thanks for that thought provoking reply Dalsaan. I'll try to digest it.

Simon

[Petunia]

But what I wanted to ask was, do people feel rather 'strange' as these emotions resurface and can it lead to a feeling of not knowing who you are?

Quite honestly I don't know who I am now in many ways, ie what is me and what is the drug.? But can the re-emerging emotions be unsettling, like anger, envy, frustration, those things that have been calmed or tamed by the drugs?

 

I've certainly been feeling strange, not only because I'm finding myself feeling extremes of emotion that have been blocked out by drugs for so long, but also because I don't know who I am any more.  I no longer seem to be anyone, which takes some getting used to, and when the unpleasant strong emotions arise, which they have been, I have to remind myself that these are just passing emotions and they don't have to define me.

 

Simon, there's a topic in the finding meaning forum you may find useful, its a short discussion about identity:

 

Identity Crisis

 

I also watched that video you wrote about, and found it very interesting.

[JanCarol]

Simon, it's like there are at least 3 me's.  Maybe more.  The me I was as a child and young adult.  The me that I was in a marriage with antidepressants (on and off, on an off, surely played havoc with things), the me I was after I accepted the "bipolar diagnosis" and "meds for life," and the me that I am becoming now.

 

In my journey I'm trying - as Dalsaan said - to take the best of each.  There were good things about my early life, there were horrid things too.  During my depressed marriage, I still had passion and curiosity for the world around me.  I wanted to learn herbalism, plant lore, myriad esoteric studies, I wanted to believe in faeries.  (I didn't, but I wanted to)

 

After I accepted the "bipolar diagnosis" I started to die, a little at a time.  Some of that was circumstantial, killed by a psychopathic boyfriend who wanted to control every aspect of my life.  That sure didn't help.  But I was still active, still curious, about music, concerts, wilderness, and relationships with friends.

 

But when the lithium hit, I lost nearly all of those good qualities.  (I've chosen not to tell you the bad qualities today, we'll just refer to them as "selfish, lying and cheating")  My main interest was going to the club and putting dollars in the pokie machines.  I wasn't a dangerous gambler, it just gave me something to do and a bit of a false social life.  I couldn't gain interest in ANYTHING, I didn't care about anything, I was anhedonia personified.

 

As the lithium comes down, I find my curiosity and engagement has returned.  Sometimes I'm a little too enthusiastic, a little too loud - but it's also more REAL.  I really CARE about my friends and my husband and my cat, I really CARE about people here on SA, I am passionate about this journey and I feel blessed, fortunate.

 

THIS person is not the SAME person that sought out that depressed marriage, or the control freak boyfriend, or any other number of bad situations.  THIS person is able to look at those and try to understand why I was like that, why I lied, cheated, and only cared about myself.  I don't have the answers, ,but now that I'm 52, it feels safe to look at them, maybe learn from them and integrate them.   At least I have my spark of curiosity back, even if I still don't have the energy to pursue all of it. 

 

Great question Simon, thanks for provoking thought!

[Flowers]

How are you doing Simon?

 

Flowers xxx

[simon]

Im not great at present. You'll see that I made the decision to change meds, and im living with the consequences of that. See my GP in the morning and last time he was convinced that we can get the drugs down to just one instead of a cocktail which is far too high for me. I don't know how this will be done and of course I cant imagine that hes into safe methods of withdrawal as on this forum. I don't  really  know how , as an individual I respond to reductions, maybe better than I imagine, who knows. Certainly  the 4-6 weeks withdrawal of Cit. back in the summer was far to fast, so that will have to be taken into account.

Im not really posting much at the moment because I can well understand that the aims of this site are about reductions, not changes and I don't want to put any pressure on anyone to go outside the remit of those aims in their replies. Its an individual decision I felt I had to make and will just live with it.

Thanks for getting in touch and I hope you have a good stable period on the Cit.

All the best to you

Simon

[WinningThrough]

Good luck simon, I will be thinking of you.

[simon]

Many thanks WT, that's very kind of you.

Simon

[Flowers]

Sorry you are not feeling that good  - I will be thinking of you and wishing you all the luck in the world whatever route you go down after your GP's visit tomorrow.

 

Flowers xxx

[Frustrated]

Sorry you are having such a rough time right now.  I hope you are able to come to a solution that works for you.  I am sure you will get there eventually.

[dalsaan]

How's your sleep Simon? One thing to know about mirtazapine is that it's sleep inducing effects are more apparent at lower rather than higher doses. It might be that it could offer you some sleep support if you dropped some of that. I also found that I could drop down to 15 from 30 pretty quick and without too much drama. Something to think about in the discussion with your dr

 

D

[simon]

That's probably a relevant point; ive heard it expressed before on the site. I know my dr. actually increased it at one point with the  aim of it being more sedating,or at least with the intention of doing that instead of using benzos (not quite sure which actually) But worth a mention.

My sleep has been ok until the last few nights but is at present about 5-6 hours. I don't know why that should be the case,with the mirtazapine, sounds a bit odd, but I will bring it up. Getting down from the high doses seems to be the easier part than further down from what ive gathered.

Thanks

Simon

[dalsaan]

Here's a link to the evidence for the sedation claim - https://books.google.com.au/books?id=sO_hArhCxwMC&pg=PA274&lpg=PA274&dq=mirtazapine+more+sedating+lower+levels&source=bl&ots=jxtbx--THO&sig=xcjKF6rcck3J4IA8GqVMAXfpzl8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1c6yVMLMCYjz8gXm64L4Bw&ved=0CCkQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=mirtazapine%20more%20sedating%20lower%20levels&f=false

[steeley]

Hi Simon,

 

I'm new to this site but was connected to another site with same purpose, so have clocked up a bit of experience during my 17 month (so far) WD hell.

 

I'm tapering from Mirtazapine too, and am now down from 30mg to 4.5mg. I stupidly (no,not stupid, misinformed by modern medicine). And I use the word "modern" very loosely.

 

I am also taking 5mg Valium a day, down from 15mg as my tremor was off the wall, as a result of cutting my 30mg in half because I believed what the doctors were saying in that all will be well. No worries. I learned different.

 

I'm confused too in that I got Serotonin Syndrome when my doctor switched me from Mirtazapine to with only 2 days in between the switch. According to all of the medical literature this should have been OK to do, and can remember the pharmacist looking up these two drugs on her computer to make sure that it was alright to do.

 

She filled my script, and I took the Lexepro two days later as advised and all hell broke loose.

 

I am now back on the Mirt. and am reducing really slowly and don't care how long it takes, so long as I am eventually free of these drugs. I will tackle the Valium after I have dealt with the Mirtazapine. One step at a time, otherwise it is just too hard and chaotic. And I've been suicidal too. Ideation only, but still scary. Who knows how thoughts can change to action, and I want to live.

 

Your plan sounds good to me, it has purpose and is achievable. If going back on the Ven is going to stabilise you, and save your relationship then it's a good thing, until you decide if you want to start a slow slow taper.

 

Sorry about the long post. I have been in this wonderful window which I pray stays open and I have a little mania (I don't have bi-polar)and my fingers just keep punching keys.

 

Your are doing good Simon, listen to your body and respond in kind. That's my contribution, for what it's worth. Just wanted to introduce myself.

 

I have had the longest window EVER lasting one whole week and still feeling good. It so gives me hope.

[steeley]

postscript: It was Lexepro that I was switched to. I left the word Lexepro out and my computer won't allow me to edit.

[simon]

Thanks Steeley for your post and news about your recovery. Youre right about those recommendations that are used for switching from one drug to another. I looked that one up too. It seems crazily fast and I know most users here would be shocked at the speed of the changeover. I felt I needed to keep my GP on board and so, rightly or wrongly went ahead with it. Nothing has changed yet concerning mood and its a very tense time. im not able to do much at all, due to extremely low mood and lack or concentration and mental powers in general. Its just a waiting game and ive been here before I guess, but didn't expect to find myself here again. So its very disappointing, but this is a good site and im glad you found it and are able to get support and support others (like me).

I got caught on the benzo a few months back and am doing nothing about any of the drugs yet. Im taking far too many and the side-effects which are all psychological, are very real. The suicidal ideation is almost constant over the last weeks and mood doesn't seem to vary from day to day.

Anyway, I see the doc this morning and will see what his ideas are for eventually reducing the meds.

Glad that youre making progress, long may it continue and thanks for the support.

Simon

[JanCarol]

Hey Simon.  Maybe it won't be that you get down to just one drug, maybe you will be able to function on low levels of 2 of them (the benzo shouldn't be long term)  That's not so bad.  I know you want your cognitive ability and give-a-yhitidude back.  I know what it's like to be in anhedonia for years at a time.

 

So what did your doc say?  Just continue as you are, give the Venlafaxine time to work?  ANy other helpful suggestions?  

 

I reckon you would be helped with a light box, in early morning.  Especially since you live in the UK, land of gray winters.  ALSO, (without going back for a refresher) are you on some good magnesium (pref glycinate) and fish oil (at least 2g / day)?

 

What does your daily exercise look like?  I know you have the Menieres, but there has to be something you can do.  As Alto has said so many times, walking seems to cascade into the neurotransmitters and heals the brain like nothing else.

 

Thinking of you, you've been very brave through the holiday season; you can do this - survive.  Survive is the point, not to get to a certain level or taper.  It's to survive!

[simon]

Yes its about survival indeed at the moment, jan.

I do get some exercise, it must be at least a mile a day with the dog. and that's always worthwhile once ive pushed myself. I have a light box but haven't used it a great deal.

I take fish oil, but have only the magnesium oxide which I hear is not so effective. So its glycinate that I must get hold of. Pity I ordered so much of  the oxide and wonder if just taking more of that might be an equivalent; but I will get the other stuff.

Yes my GP wants me to soldier on with the Ven.,early days yet.

Yesterday I got a card from one of my daughters, full of a list of all the things that over the years she has appreciated about me. When I think how some kids can be so lacking in understanding, its shows what complete characters they've become and prepared to show their feelings. I am grateful. Being 'numb' emotionally myself at the moment I couldn't get any feeling about it im shocked to admit, but that's just the nature of this illness. one day ill look back on it and be moved. For the present i'll just concentrate on the 'fact' that they are caring kids!

Simon

[JanCarol]

That's sweet!  Didn't you at least get a little affirmation from your daughter's card, like, "I've done something right!"  ?     Yup, forgot how the dog is such a lifesaver for you.

 

I'm not a light box expert - if I had stayed in Indiana, I might be.  But I have a huge, intense light box in the sky, all I have to do is walk in it (and boy I haven't felt much like that lately being sick and with the heat!)  But I've heard 20 min in early morning has significant effect on mood.  This might kick the venlafaxine in, and if you notice a change, 10 minutes might be enough.

 

I believe (and others might agree) that the anhedonia is likely from the drugs, not from your depression.  Which drugs, it's hard to say.  All of them, likely, contribute to it.

 

Thanks for surviving, you are doing something right, even if you don't feel it!

[simon]

Thanks Jan,

yes decided to make more use of this light box, pity its not more like the sun. Theyre a rather harsh light, like a florescent tube light, but i'll try anything to get over the winter. (as a matter of interest I got it online from LLoyds pharmacy, about £39 and free of VAT,and it is the full 10000 lux.)

Venlafaxine is probably just starting to kick in (dare I say) but  im aware that as I CT'd off Cit. to get onto it, all hell  might break loose when my brain realizes what ive been up to. Although with all the drug hell ive put it through I'm quite surprised it still notices anything.

Anyway should things start to improve a little id be interested to know what I should pull the plug on as regards the other chemicals (not asking advice here, because ive gone off the rails temporarily  re. SA policy, but as ive said before my GP is against this polydrugging  and wants me to get onto one drug. (one drug too many, but it has to be better than the present position .