Moderator Emeritus Skyler Posted June 7, 2015 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted June 7, 2015 Option #2: go to Plan B and hold the L @ 4mg (where I have stabilized for now) and move forward commence the K taper. Once I've completely tapered the K and waited a couple weeks, I will restart my L taper and jump. The bottom line is that I hope I've given my nervous system just enough time to recover from what it's been through which is detailed here: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/9248-antihypertensive-med-withdrawal-psych-meds-not-the-only-drugs-to-cause-paws/ Plan B. Hands down. It's not good to taper more than one drug at once. And even those here who know what they are doing do not advocate this. Also, Alto advocates tapering Lamatil last as it can help with withdrawal symptoms, as previously stated. As always, LISTEN TO YOUR BODY! A proud supporter of the 10% (or slower) rule. Requip - 3/16 ZERO Total time on 25 years. Lyrica: 8/15 ZERO Total time on 7 or 8 yrs.BENZO FREE 10/13 (started tapering 7/10) Total time on 25 years. Read my intro thread here, and check the about me section. "No matter how cynical you get, it's almost impossible to keep up." Lily Tomlin Link to comment
csm2014 Posted June 7, 2015 Author Share Posted June 7, 2015 Option #2: go to Plan B and hold the L @ 4mg (where I have stabilized for now) and move forward commence the K taper. Once I've completely tapered the K and waited a couple weeks, I will restart my L taper and jump. The bottom line is that I hope I've given my nervous system just enough time to recover from what it's been through which is detailed here: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/9248-antihypertensive-med-withdrawal-psych-meds-not-the-only-drugs-to-cause-paws/ Plan B. Hands down. It's not good to taper more than one drug at once. And even those here who know what they are doing do not advocate this. Boy, that was a quick response! BTW, my doc agrees with you. MEDS SUMMARY: 1) Valium: 10mg avg prn from 09-06-14 to 10-20-142) Xanax: 0.75mg avg prn from from 09-19-14 to 10-16-143) Lexapro: 5mg q.d. from 10-06-14 to 10-16-144) switched immediately to Clonazepam: 0.5mg average/day for 2 weeks (10-17-24-10-30-14); titrated to 1mg (0.5mg bid) on 10-31-14 to present; started microtaper @ .625% (.0031250mg x 2) from 08-09-15 to 08-15-15; .800% (.0038750mg x 2) from 08-16-15 to present; destabilized 08-19-15 (due to change from original tablet); reinstated, on day 54, and have tapered a total of 14% as of 09-30-15 with zero symptoms (knock on wood)!5) Lamictal: 100mg q.d. from 10-23-14 to 12-04-14; started tapering 12-05-14, 25mg every 2 weeks; destabilized 01-15-14; reinstated 01-22-15 at 25mg q.d. from 01-24-15 to 02-19-15; cut approx. 3-4mg every 5-10 days until 03-22-15, then cut 2mg every 5-6 days until 05-12-15; holding at 4mg q.d. from 05-13-15 to present.Detailed Analysis - Lamictal history: https://app.box.com/s/rnermghleue9aemyhd57l1a00gsk2i4u 6) Also taking meds for blood pressure (Coreg @ 6.25mg b.i.d. and Losartan @ 50mg b.i.d.) + for blood clot I had back in 2012 (Xarelto @ 10mg) + for hypothyroidism (Armour Thyroid @ 1grain q.d.) HISTORY & SUPPLEMENT LIST: https://app.box.com/s/mc9mch8za2lbizgs9z8j4mzhz2oswn8l Link to comment
csm2014 Posted June 10, 2015 Author Share Posted June 10, 2015 I hate procrastination but seem to fall victim to it it every time. However, there are two valid issues holding up my decision to go for Plan B and jump on the K taper yesterday: 1) thyroid issue: I am hypothyroid and I think it is important to make sure and have optimized thyroid function prior to enduring a taper; though all docs advise to keep it simple, don't change my thyroid med dosing right now (even if my thyroid numbers aren't 100% dead on perfect) and just do one thing at a time. 2) Sleep apnea issue: if I'm not getting enough 02 during sleep, that will definitely make w/d worse I feel and already likely contributes to my morning issues with cortisol/adrenalin/depression/anxiety issues because I am waking early in an oxygen-deprived state. I cannot use CPAP and am looking into oral devices to resolve this. Obviously will take more time to address either of the two and keep me stuck on the K even longer. So, the question is should I wait to get these things under control - or just take the plunge I've been anxious to take since last year? Maybe best bet is to give it a shot and get the ball rolling & start tapering by 10% on dose #1, monitor and go from there.. Thoughts? MEDS SUMMARY: 1) Valium: 10mg avg prn from 09-06-14 to 10-20-142) Xanax: 0.75mg avg prn from from 09-19-14 to 10-16-143) Lexapro: 5mg q.d. from 10-06-14 to 10-16-144) switched immediately to Clonazepam: 0.5mg average/day for 2 weeks (10-17-24-10-30-14); titrated to 1mg (0.5mg bid) on 10-31-14 to present; started microtaper @ .625% (.0031250mg x 2) from 08-09-15 to 08-15-15; .800% (.0038750mg x 2) from 08-16-15 to present; destabilized 08-19-15 (due to change from original tablet); reinstated, on day 54, and have tapered a total of 14% as of 09-30-15 with zero symptoms (knock on wood)!5) Lamictal: 100mg q.d. from 10-23-14 to 12-04-14; started tapering 12-05-14, 25mg every 2 weeks; destabilized 01-15-14; reinstated 01-22-15 at 25mg q.d. from 01-24-15 to 02-19-15; cut approx. 3-4mg every 5-10 days until 03-22-15, then cut 2mg every 5-6 days until 05-12-15; holding at 4mg q.d. from 05-13-15 to present.Detailed Analysis - Lamictal history: https://app.box.com/s/rnermghleue9aemyhd57l1a00gsk2i4u 6) Also taking meds for blood pressure (Coreg @ 6.25mg b.i.d. and Losartan @ 50mg b.i.d.) + for blood clot I had back in 2012 (Xarelto @ 10mg) + for hypothyroidism (Armour Thyroid @ 1grain q.d.) HISTORY & SUPPLEMENT LIST: https://app.box.com/s/mc9mch8za2lbizgs9z8j4mzhz2oswn8l Link to comment
csm2014 Posted June 27, 2015 Author Share Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) *topic moved from symptoms section Getting prepped to start my Klonopin taper (just got a new more accurate scale) and just learned via that my serum lithium level is extremely low (<0.1 with a ref range of 0.4-1.1mEq/L ). I have not yet broached this with my doc as I just got the result late yesterday. I know lithium is found naturally in trace amounts in the diet and if low or in excess can cause mood disorders. I have never been diagnosed with BP or manic depression and do not exhibit the classic symptoms of either, although since last year's iatrogenically-caused "accident" and the subsequent medication protocol for the last eight months, I haven't been the happiest camper, not to mention having had my share of bouts of w/d tapering Lamictal, but that doesn not fit the description of the aforementioned conditions. Nonetheless, I have heard mixed reports [http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/9105-lithium-orotate-when-withdrawing-from-many-psych-drugs/?hl=%2Blithium+%2Borotate]as to lithium's use in helping possibly mitigate psych med w/d, including benzos, but would not want to risk the side effects of dosing at amounts that can negatively affect thyroid (as I am already being treated for hypothyroidism) and kidney function. If OTC trace amounts can help pre-peri-post taper, then great. If a low level is not clinically significant in the context of a lack of presentation of BP or manic depression, then is there really any cause for concern is the question. Any and all input appreciated. Edited July 4, 2015 by Petunia added note MEDS SUMMARY: 1) Valium: 10mg avg prn from 09-06-14 to 10-20-142) Xanax: 0.75mg avg prn from from 09-19-14 to 10-16-143) Lexapro: 5mg q.d. from 10-06-14 to 10-16-144) switched immediately to Clonazepam: 0.5mg average/day for 2 weeks (10-17-24-10-30-14); titrated to 1mg (0.5mg bid) on 10-31-14 to present; started microtaper @ .625% (.0031250mg x 2) from 08-09-15 to 08-15-15; .800% (.0038750mg x 2) from 08-16-15 to present; destabilized 08-19-15 (due to change from original tablet); reinstated, on day 54, and have tapered a total of 14% as of 09-30-15 with zero symptoms (knock on wood)!5) Lamictal: 100mg q.d. from 10-23-14 to 12-04-14; started tapering 12-05-14, 25mg every 2 weeks; destabilized 01-15-14; reinstated 01-22-15 at 25mg q.d. from 01-24-15 to 02-19-15; cut approx. 3-4mg every 5-10 days until 03-22-15, then cut 2mg every 5-6 days until 05-12-15; holding at 4mg q.d. from 05-13-15 to present.Detailed Analysis - Lamictal history: https://app.box.com/s/rnermghleue9aemyhd57l1a00gsk2i4u 6) Also taking meds for blood pressure (Coreg @ 6.25mg b.i.d. and Losartan @ 50mg b.i.d.) + for blood clot I had back in 2012 (Xarelto @ 10mg) + for hypothyroidism (Armour Thyroid @ 1grain q.d.) HISTORY & SUPPLEMENT LIST: https://app.box.com/s/mc9mch8za2lbizgs9z8j4mzhz2oswn8l Link to comment
Meimeiquest Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Are you taking any lithium right now or is that your natural level? You could google Nancy Mullan and lithium. She uses it in low doses, says labs usually come up as undetectable. 1st round Prozac 1989/90, clear depression symptoms. 2nd round Prozac started 1999 when admitted to dr. I was tired. Prozac pooped out, switch to Cymbalta 3/2006. Diagnosed with bipolar disorder due to mania 6/2006--then I was taken abruptly off Cymbalta and didn't know I had SSRI withdrawal. Lots of meds for my intractable "bipolar" symptoms. Zyprexa started about 9/06, mostly 5mg. Tapered 4/12 through12/29/12 Wellbutrin. XL 300 mg started 1/07, tapered 1/18/13 through 7/8/13 Oxazepam mostly continuously since 6/06, 30mg since 12/12, tapered 1.17.14 through 8.26.15 11/06 Lithium 600mg twice daily, 2.2.14 400mg TID DIY liquid, 2.12.14 1150mg, 3.2.14 1100mg, 3.18.14 1075mg, 4/14 updose to 1100mg, 6.1.14 900 mg capsules 7.8.14 810mg, 8.17.14 725mg, 8.24.24 700mg...10.22.14 487.5mg, 3.9.15 475mg, 4.1.15 462.5mg 4.21.15 450mg 8.11.15 375mg, 11.28.15 362.5mg, back to 375mg four days later, 3.4.16 updose to 475 (too much going on to risk trouble) 9/4/13 Toprol-XL 25mg daily for sudden hypertension, tapered 11.12.13 through 5.3.14, last 10 days or so switched to atenolol 7.4.14 Started Walsh Protocol 56 years old Link to comment
Iamfine Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 They always tried to keep mine right at 1.0. I don't know why you would want to take it if it's not at a therapeutic level. It's a dangerous drug. It put me in the hospital with kidney failure for 28 days. As requested. In the last 3 years to the best of my recollection I first dropped the max dose of Lamictal. Yes I just stopped it was doing absolutely nothing. Then I dropped Lexapro, that was even easier I had been on and off that a dozen times before. There were at least 2 odd off label attempts at anxiety that I won’t be able to remember. Then there was sweet/evil Seroquel. That was the last to go it’s been around 16 months. Lithium, Prozac, Paxil, Wellbutrin, Effexor, Celexa, Lamictal, Lexapro, Luvox, Viibryd, Brintellix, Pristiq, Zoloft, Seroquel, Zyprexa, Geodon, Abilify, Latuda, Ritalin, Adderall, Valium, Clonazepam, Alprazolam, Propanalol, Spravato Link to comment
csm2014 Posted June 28, 2015 Author Share Posted June 28, 2015 Are you taking any lithium right now or is that your natural level? You could google Nancy Mullan and lithium. She uses it in low doses, says labs usually come up as undetectable. Never used lithium, that's my baseline natural level. I know of Dr. Mullan. She's is LA area and does a lot of work with autism and methylation defects. In fact, was going to contact her, but she looks like she specialized more in women's issues. http://nancymullanmd.com/mthfr-lithium-dopamine-and-you-who-is-in-the-drivers-seat-around-here/ I would only take it in trace amounts as in this formula: http://www.traceminerals.com/products/liquid-tablet-minerals/concentrace-ionic-minerals MEDS SUMMARY: 1) Valium: 10mg avg prn from 09-06-14 to 10-20-142) Xanax: 0.75mg avg prn from from 09-19-14 to 10-16-143) Lexapro: 5mg q.d. from 10-06-14 to 10-16-144) switched immediately to Clonazepam: 0.5mg average/day for 2 weeks (10-17-24-10-30-14); titrated to 1mg (0.5mg bid) on 10-31-14 to present; started microtaper @ .625% (.0031250mg x 2) from 08-09-15 to 08-15-15; .800% (.0038750mg x 2) from 08-16-15 to present; destabilized 08-19-15 (due to change from original tablet); reinstated, on day 54, and have tapered a total of 14% as of 09-30-15 with zero symptoms (knock on wood)!5) Lamictal: 100mg q.d. from 10-23-14 to 12-04-14; started tapering 12-05-14, 25mg every 2 weeks; destabilized 01-15-14; reinstated 01-22-15 at 25mg q.d. from 01-24-15 to 02-19-15; cut approx. 3-4mg every 5-10 days until 03-22-15, then cut 2mg every 5-6 days until 05-12-15; holding at 4mg q.d. from 05-13-15 to present.Detailed Analysis - Lamictal history: https://app.box.com/s/rnermghleue9aemyhd57l1a00gsk2i4u 6) Also taking meds for blood pressure (Coreg @ 6.25mg b.i.d. and Losartan @ 50mg b.i.d.) + for blood clot I had back in 2012 (Xarelto @ 10mg) + for hypothyroidism (Armour Thyroid @ 1grain q.d.) HISTORY & SUPPLEMENT LIST: https://app.box.com/s/mc9mch8za2lbizgs9z8j4mzhz2oswn8l Link to comment
Iamfine Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 I was not aware that we got lithium from our diets. I knew it was a natural substance but didn't know you could just have a level in your bloodstream just by living. That's interesting. As requested. In the last 3 years to the best of my recollection I first dropped the max dose of Lamictal. Yes I just stopped it was doing absolutely nothing. Then I dropped Lexapro, that was even easier I had been on and off that a dozen times before. There were at least 2 odd off label attempts at anxiety that I won’t be able to remember. Then there was sweet/evil Seroquel. That was the last to go it’s been around 16 months. Lithium, Prozac, Paxil, Wellbutrin, Effexor, Celexa, Lamictal, Lexapro, Luvox, Viibryd, Brintellix, Pristiq, Zoloft, Seroquel, Zyprexa, Geodon, Abilify, Latuda, Ritalin, Adderall, Valium, Clonazepam, Alprazolam, Propanalol, Spravato Link to comment
Meimeiquest Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Yes, I think your blood test was normal for someone not taking it. Mine is 2.0 and I take 450mg/day. The lab "normal" you listed is the therapeutic range for people being treated with lithium. 1st round Prozac 1989/90, clear depression symptoms. 2nd round Prozac started 1999 when admitted to dr. I was tired. Prozac pooped out, switch to Cymbalta 3/2006. Diagnosed with bipolar disorder due to mania 6/2006--then I was taken abruptly off Cymbalta and didn't know I had SSRI withdrawal. Lots of meds for my intractable "bipolar" symptoms. Zyprexa started about 9/06, mostly 5mg. Tapered 4/12 through12/29/12 Wellbutrin. XL 300 mg started 1/07, tapered 1/18/13 through 7/8/13 Oxazepam mostly continuously since 6/06, 30mg since 12/12, tapered 1.17.14 through 8.26.15 11/06 Lithium 600mg twice daily, 2.2.14 400mg TID DIY liquid, 2.12.14 1150mg, 3.2.14 1100mg, 3.18.14 1075mg, 4/14 updose to 1100mg, 6.1.14 900 mg capsules 7.8.14 810mg, 8.17.14 725mg, 8.24.24 700mg...10.22.14 487.5mg, 3.9.15 475mg, 4.1.15 462.5mg 4.21.15 450mg 8.11.15 375mg, 11.28.15 362.5mg, back to 375mg four days later, 3.4.16 updose to 475 (too much going on to risk trouble) 9/4/13 Toprol-XL 25mg daily for sudden hypertension, tapered 11.12.13 through 5.3.14, last 10 days or so switched to atenolol 7.4.14 Started Walsh Protocol 56 years old Link to comment
csm2014 Posted June 29, 2015 Author Share Posted June 29, 2015 Yes, I think your blood test was normal for someone not taking it. Mine is 2.0 and I take 450mg/day. The lab "normal" you listed is the therapeutic range for people being treated with lithium. I think you are dead on; I did more research, spoke with the lab's pathologist, and it was determined that this test is really only useful for therapeutic measurement of those already on lithium therapy and not for nutritional assessment (unless the level is toxic from the food or water supply). As it states in this article: http://www.greatplainslaboratory.com/home/eng/lithium.asp "Blood tests done at conventional medical laboratories measure lithium but only are useful to measure the extremely high lithium levels associated with lithium drug therapy. Such tests are useless for the measurement of the very low lithium levels associated with nutritional lithium." I think that about sums it up. MEDS SUMMARY: 1) Valium: 10mg avg prn from 09-06-14 to 10-20-142) Xanax: 0.75mg avg prn from from 09-19-14 to 10-16-143) Lexapro: 5mg q.d. from 10-06-14 to 10-16-144) switched immediately to Clonazepam: 0.5mg average/day for 2 weeks (10-17-24-10-30-14); titrated to 1mg (0.5mg bid) on 10-31-14 to present; started microtaper @ .625% (.0031250mg x 2) from 08-09-15 to 08-15-15; .800% (.0038750mg x 2) from 08-16-15 to present; destabilized 08-19-15 (due to change from original tablet); reinstated, on day 54, and have tapered a total of 14% as of 09-30-15 with zero symptoms (knock on wood)!5) Lamictal: 100mg q.d. from 10-23-14 to 12-04-14; started tapering 12-05-14, 25mg every 2 weeks; destabilized 01-15-14; reinstated 01-22-15 at 25mg q.d. from 01-24-15 to 02-19-15; cut approx. 3-4mg every 5-10 days until 03-22-15, then cut 2mg every 5-6 days until 05-12-15; holding at 4mg q.d. from 05-13-15 to present.Detailed Analysis - Lamictal history: https://app.box.com/s/rnermghleue9aemyhd57l1a00gsk2i4u 6) Also taking meds for blood pressure (Coreg @ 6.25mg b.i.d. and Losartan @ 50mg b.i.d.) + for blood clot I had back in 2012 (Xarelto @ 10mg) + for hypothyroidism (Armour Thyroid @ 1grain q.d.) HISTORY & SUPPLEMENT LIST: https://app.box.com/s/mc9mch8za2lbizgs9z8j4mzhz2oswn8l Link to comment
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