DMV64: reinstate Saphris?

[JanCarol]

Hey D - if you do accelerate your taper in January, remember to hit the brakes when you get to about half dose - the lower half of the dose is always more challenging than the upper half.

 

If you do get a few months where your tapers are at 3 weeks (I really don't recommend going shorter than that) - when you get down around 10 mg, you might want to go back to a month again.  You'll get a little acceleration - but the key point is - you will be feeling better.

 

Once you get to that point, then you won't mind how long it takes.

[DMV64]

5 hours ago, JanCarol said:

Hey D - if you do accelerate your taper in January, remember to hit the brakes when you get to about half dose - the lower half of the dose is always more challenging than the upper half.

 

If you do get a few months where your tapers are at 3 weeks (I really don't recommend going shorter than that) - when you get down around 10 mg, you might want to go back to a month again.  You'll get a little acceleration - but the key point is - you will be feeling better.

 

Once you get to that point, then you won't mind how long it takes. Ok, I am not sure if I will do it yet, but good info!!

 

[DMV64]

10 hours ago, JanCarol said:

Hey D - if you do accelerate your taper in January, remember to hit the brakes when you get to about half dose - the lower half of the dose is always more challenging than the upper half.

 

If you do get a few months where your tapers are at 3 weeks (I really don't recommend going shorter than that) - when you get down around 10 mg, you might want to go back to a month again.  You'll get a little acceleration - but the key point is - you will be feeling better.

 

Once you get to that point, then you won't mind how long it takes.

I am curious as to the difference in Benadryl and Cogentin. And why the doctors seem to use them interchangeably to ward off the side effects of medications like Saphris? Any information is much appreciated. I’m truly curious and I know here on the site we do not look at them as interchangeable.

[DMV64]

You guys! I just got a weighted blanket!!! I can't wait to see if it helps with anxiety!

[DMV64]

11/2

7:15AM: Wake with a mild panic. 

7:30AM: 5mg Vyvanse.Run. 2 teaspoons ground flax seeds, 1 scoop Progreens, Probiotic, 20mg gentle iron, 2 soft gel fish oil 

8am: 1mg Klonopin

9:15 teach

11: 00 100mg gabapentin. 

12:00 PM: lunch

12:30 90% of 10 Mg Geoden 9th day of taper

1PM teach. Dip to depression, lifts quickly

3:00PM 1000mg magnesium 2 cap of 500 is citrate. 

5:00PM: 100mg gabapentin. 

6:30 teach

8:30PM: Dinner 

8:30PM 500 magnesium 600mg calcium. 

9:30PM  2 teaspoons ground flax seeds

10:30PM  Will take 2.5mg Saphris with .5 Cogentin before bed. And 20 mg omeprazole. 100mg gabapentin. 

[DMV64]

11/3

6:15AM: Wake with anxiety. 

6:30AM: 5mg Vyvanse.. 2 teaspoons ground flax seeds, 1 scoop Progreens, Probiotic, 20mg gentle iron, 2 soft gel fish oil 

7am: feel depressed. Too much free time coming up.

8am: 1mg Klonopin

9:30 dance

11: 00 100mg gabapentin. 

12:00 PM: lunch

12:30 90% of 10 Mg Geoden 10th day of taper

1PM meeting

3:00PM 1000mg magnesium 2 cap of 500 is citrate. Feel like I am fighting depression. Trying not to fight.

4:30PM: 100mg gabapentin. 

6:00 meeting

7:30PM: Dinner. Depression lifted.

7:30PM 500 magnesium 600mg calcium. 

9:30PM will take  2 teaspoons ground flax seeds

10:00PM  Will take 2.5mg Saphris with .5 Cogentin before bed. And 20 mg omeprazole. 100mg gabapentin. 

[DMV64]

11/4

6:15AM: Wake calm. 

6:30AM: 5mg Vyvanse.. 2 teaspoons ground flax seeds, 1 scoop Progreens, Probiotic, 20mg gentle iron, 2 soft gel fish oil 

8am: 1mg Klonopin and meditation

9:15 teach

11: 00 100mg gabapentin. 

11:15 PM: brunch

12:00 90% of 10 Mg Geoden 11th day of taper

3:00PM 1000mg magnesium 2 cap of 500 is citrate. 

4:30PM: 100mg gabapentin. 

7:30PM: Dinner. 

7:30PM 500 magnesium 600mg calcium. 

9:30PM  2 teaspoons ground flax seeds

10:00PM  Will take 2.5mg Saphris with .5 Cogentin before bed. And 20 mg omeprazole. 100mg gabapentin. 

 

[DMV64]

11/5

6:00AM: Wake mild panic. 

6:30AM: 5mg Vyvanse. Run. 2 teaspoons ground flax seeds, 1 scoop Progreens, Probiotic, 20mg gentle iron, 2 soft gel fish oil 

8am: 1mg Klonopin and meditation. Anxiety. Bordering panic.

9:15 teach

11: 00 100mg gabapentin. 

11:15 PM: brunch. Depressed feeling mostly over weight I think.

12:00 90% of 10 Mg Geoden 12th day of taper

3:00PM 1000mg magnesium 2 cap of 500 is citrate. 

4:30PM: 100mg gabapentin. 

4:30PM Nature walk

7PM meeting

7:30PM: Dinner. Feeling physically gross. And somewhat hopeless.

7:30PM 500 magnesium 600mg calcium. 

9:30PM will take  2 teaspoons ground flax seeds

10:00PM  Will take 2.5mg Saphris with .5 Cogentin before bed. And 20 mg omeprazole. 100mg gabapentin. 

[TheWayBack]

How are you doing overall, DMV? Just checking in on you. Hope you are doing well.

[DMV64]

On 06/11/2017 at 6:16 PM, TheWayBack said:

How are you doing overall, DMV? Just checking in on you. Hope you are doing well.

 

Hello! I was just reading your update! Glad you are feeling better. I am doing ok. Some days are better than others. Alternating depression and anxiety. Mornings and midday can be rough but I also have some really very good times and days. I am slowly tapering the Geoden to start. I can't think about how long this is going to take or I get bummed out and want to speed it up, you know?

Mod note:  It may be helpful to readers if you 

1.  Do not quote entire quote (just highlight the section you wish to quote, a button will appear to "quote."  This may not work on phones.).  This one is short, so it's fine, but much of your thread is long quote sequences with short answers.

2.  Make your reply separate from the quote - this one was buried in the quote.

Edited November 7, 2017 by JanCarol
fixed quotes

[DMV64]

11/6

6:15AM: Wake feeling good. Amazing!

6:30AM: 5mg Vyvanse. 2 teaspoons ground flax seeds, 1 scoop Progreens, Probiotic, 20mg gentle iron, 2 soft gel fish oil 

8am: 1mg Klonopin and meditation. 

9:30 class

11: 00 100mg gabapentin. 

12:00 Lunch 90% of 10 Mg Geoden 13th day of taper

12:30 Photoshoot. Feeling good

3:00PM 1000mg magnesium 2 cap of 500 is citrate. 

4:30PM: 100mg gabapentin. 

4:30PM early dinner

5:30PM meeting

7:00PM: Teach

8:30PM 500 magnesium 600mg calcium. 

9:30PM will take  2 teaspoons ground flax seeds

10:00PM  Will take 2.5mg Saphris with .5 Cogentin before bed. And 20 mg omeprazole. 100mg gabapentin. It has been a very good day!

[JanCarol]

Hey D - 

On 03/11/2017 at 3:01 AM, DMV64 said:

I am curious as to the difference in Benadryl and Cogentin. And why the doctors seem to use them interchangeably to ward off the side effects of medications like Saphris? Any information is much appreciated. I’m truly curious and I know here on the site we do not look at them as interchangeable.

 

Benadryl is an antihistamine.

Cogentin is an anti-Parkinson's drug.

 

They have no relation to each other except they are both likely anti-cholinergic, drowsymaking, and dull the senses.

A doctor who thinks they can be used interchangeably has not studied pharmacology.

 

Here is what I said in PM (quoted with permission):
 

Quote

 

It wouldn't be a good look to have the muscle dystonia problems that got you put on the cogentin to begin with.

 

There are many medications that cause weight gain, including antihistamines and steroids.

 

I know that yoga people like to be pure and don't like to admit to health problems or medications, but I think that weight gain is a small problem compared to the potential side effects of cogentin withdrawal and too much geodon and Sapris.

 

This is Akathisia:

One Minute Video - Akathisia
(warning- it's not nice to look at!)

 

This is an SA Member with akathisia:

 

 

This video is 3 months later (yes, 3 months!) - some improvement - but 3 months later, she is still struggling with akathisia:

 

 

It is one potential muscular side effect that the cogentin may be preventing.  There are others - tardive dyskinesia, dystonia - that would affect your yoga practice and studio far more than your weight would.  It is why we are so very careful about tapers, and why we do not recommend cold turkeys.  It is one of the major causes of suicide from these drugs.

 

Benadryl will do nothing to address this.  

 

I go back to the fact that the majority of Americans are obese.  Perhaps a larger yoga teacher will bring in more students instead of less - because the fat people will be less afraid, less intimidated by you?

I've been through this conundrum myself; I was a personal trainer.  By the time I was ready to go for my certification I was overweight and nobody would come to me.  And "skinny" is more important in a personal trainer than it is in a yogini.

 

http://www.curvyliciousyoga.com.au/

 

http://www.fatyogini.com/

 

https://www.mamamia.com.au/fat-yoga-australia/

 

http://www.biggalyoga.com/

 

 

 

 

I think that our society's fixation on body size is one of the reason many of us end up on drugs (or addicted - because we have so much self loathing that we do not meet the Hollywood and magazine expectations).

 

So - you'll get no sympathy from this fat yogini (me!) for having extra weight, sorry.

 

* * *

And here is the research I did concerning Cogentin, Geodon and Saphris:

 

Quote

It is more important to keep you stable.

 

Unfortunately, efforts to lose weight while on neuroleptics is extremely difficult.  They reset your hormones and metabolism.

 

You could go off the cogentin and still have this problem from the saphris and geodon.

 

Actually, I don't think it's the cogentin at all.

Weight gain is not listed here:

https://www.drugs.com/sfx/cogentin-side-effects.html

 

But it is here:

https://www.drugs.com/sfx/ziprasidone-side-effects.html

and here:

https://www.drugs.com/sfx/asenapine-side-effects.html

 

You are blaming the wrong drug.

 

You've fixated on the cogentin as the source of the problem - when actually, ti's the whole cocktail working on dysregulating your system.

 

We're working on the Geodon.

 

If you put too much energy into weight loss, you may not have enough to stay stable.  It can throw you into a state of inflammation or increase the side effects from your taper.

 

I would suggest that maybe you are dieting and running too much.  I've run into this - the body forms homoeostasis - and if it thinks you are starving it will hold onto weight.  We don't recommend weight loss while in withdrawal.  

 

I know it's hard!  There is more to you than your size and/or shape!

 

This is a great time to develop your mind.

 

 

 

I hope you see the sun today!  Please do not starve yourself to achieve a goal - your brain needs food, too.

 

You may be interested in these articles:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolutionary-psychiatry/201211/youre-vegetarian-have-you-lost-your-mind

 

Vegetarians and Mental Disorders

 

 

http://kellybroganmd.com/red-meat-for-your-depression/

 

Edited November 7, 2017 by JanCarol
fixed quotes

[DMV64]

2 hours ago, JanCarol said:

Hey D - 

 

Benadryl is an antihistamine.

Cogentin is an anti-Parkinson's drug.

 

They have no relation to each other except they are both likely anti-cholinergic, drowsymaking, and dull the senses.

A doctor who thinks they can be used interchangeably has not studied pharmacology.

 

Here is what I said in PM (quoted with permission):
 

* * *

And here is the research I did concerning Cogentin, Geodon and Saphris:

 

 

 

I hope you see the sun today!  Please do not starve yourself to achieve a goal - your brain needs food, too.

 

You may be interested in these articles:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolutionary-psychiatry/201211/youre-vegetarian-have-you-lost-your-mind

 

Vegetarians and Mental Disorders

 

 

http://kellybroganmd.com/red-meat-for-your-depression/

 

Thank you for all this. No I will not be starving myself. 

[JanCarol]

I've been returning to the yoga I did in the 70's.

 

2 things which might help your metabolism without much fuss.

 

shoulder stands to enrich the thyroid

 

and

 

abdominal lifts and charging breath to activate the endocrine system, liver, pancreas and digestion.

 

At least it's something.

Here's Richard Hittleman showing abdominal pumping:

 

 

And at 13:10 he goes into the shoulder stand.  

 

Here's a newer, sexier version:

 

and then the pumping:

 

There's also the bellow breath:

 

 

 

These breathing techniques can be stimulating, so if anxiety is your main problem, they may not be for you.  However, they do tone the internal organs, digestion and endocrine system to help you metabolize food.

In general, in withdrawal you want to avoid stimulation, but you were agonizing about weight, so I provide them here.

You may have to balance between your need for calming - and your desire to lose weight.

 

 

[DMV64]

5 minutes ago, JanCarol said:

I've been returning to the yoga I did in the 70's.

 

2 things which might help your metabolism without much fuss.

 

shoulder stands to enrich the thyroid

 

and

 

abdominal lifts and charging breath to activate the endocrine system, liver, pancreas and digestion.

 

At least it's something.

Here's Richard Hittleman showing abdominal pumping:

 

 

And at 13:10 he goes into the shoulder stand.  

 

Here's a newer, sexier version:

 

and then the pumping:

 

There's also the bellow breath:

 

 

 

These breathing techniques can be stimulating, so if anxiety is your main problem, they may not be for you.  However, they do tone the internal organs, digestion and endocrine system to help you metabolize food.

In general, in withdrawal you want to avoid stimulation, but you were agonizing about weight, so I provide them here.

You may have to balance between your need for calming - and your desire to lose weight. This is all great! Thanks. And I am feeling more ok about weight today.

 

 

 

[bubble]

On ‎06‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 12:46 PM, DMV64 said:

Mod note:  It may be helpful to readers if you 

1.  Do not quote entire quote (just highlight the section you wish to quote, a button will appear to "quote."  This may not work on phones.).  This one is short, so it's fine, but much of your thread is long quote sequences with short answers.

2.  Make your reply separate from the quote - this one was buried in the quote.

 

Please DMV consider omitting quotes. This makes your posts very difficult to read.

 

There is also no need to quote when you are replying to somebody.

 

I'm also not sure about the usefulness of copy pasting the daily schedule of when you take your drugs. Mentioning a symptom or two here and there doesn't make it a symptom pattern.

 

Try to tune in with your body and mind instead and post a sentence or two describing how you are feeling instead of this copy paste.

[DMV64]

8 minutes ago, bubble said:

just highlight the section 

Hi Bubble. Thanks for stopping by. And for the useful info, although I am not sure I totally understand. Like will you see this response to what you wrote to me? I did not hit "quote" since you mentioned it was confusing. But I tried highlighting, which I did not know existed. If I did not highlight, would you notice this post? I thought quote was how it was done. Also not really sure what you mean about copy and paste. I AM using time to help me track my feelings and I do go over it everyday even if it is "pasted" from the previous day for simplicity. I could just write a narrative of what I felt during the day. Is this a better thing to do? If I do this will it be hard to see what is affecting what? I am really, really trying to provide information so I can be helped by all of you. 

-D

[JanCarol]

Hey DMV!

 

You got the "little quote" thing right!  Awesome!  That will help a lot, as there won't be so much duplication on your thread.

 

I'm here today to talk about 2 common withdrawal phenomenon.  I'm hoping that in learning about them, you can anticipate what is happening, and self regulate a bit.

 

The first is Waves and Windows. 

 

Healing is not linear.  Sometimes it seems like you get better, then get worse - sometimes the "worse" feels even worse than before you got better.  But while you are struggling, know that part of your system is "down for repairs" - it means you are healing.  When in the depth of the wave, your brain tricks you into believing that this will last forever, that you're not healing.  It's chemical.  Do what you can to remember the windows, and just know that they will come again.

 

Some think of it like a Rubik's cube - sometimes you have to go against the pattern in order to solve it.  This is explained in this short, excellent video:

Healing from Antidepressants - Patterns of Recovery (by Toxic Antidepressants)

 

I saw it recently described quite beautifully here:

 

The next phenomenon to expect is what an SA member coined as "Neuroemotions."  These are extreme emotions (and they often make those Waves very convincing).  There is a kernal of truth in the emotions, but they are magnified, like under an electron microscope, so that they loom large and terrifying, quite overwhelming.  The emotion is real - the amplification is chemically induced.

 

There is a discussion of Neuroemotions here:

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/3611-neuro-emotions-deep-despair-dread-doom-horror/

 

Neuroemotions are particularly "sticky," they get in our head and fuel ruminations and can be really overwhelming.  They can turn on our relationships, and  make it really hard to relate in the world.  It gets so that you don't know what is real, and what is chemical.

 

It helps immensely to just remember:  these are symptoms of withdrawal.  Say it to yourself, "This is a symptom of withdrawal," and that separates you from the experience a bit - puts you in the Observer, or Witness seat.  

 

I hope these help you on your journey.

 

[DMV64]

2 hours ago, JanCarol said:

I hope these help you on your journey.

Thank you for all the great information. I will look through it all. Today feeling kind of anxious so maybe I will just take it a bit at a time.

-D

[DMV64]

Hello all...Today is kind of a hard morning. Woke up feeling triggered and anxious. I have to go teach today and I cannot remember what my last lesson was with this group of kids and that is very upsetting to me right now. My memory is a mess. So I am trying not to let the racing thoughts build on each other and remembering things do tend to work out and I CAN DO THIS because somewhere inside me I know I can. I teach three classes today. Mindfulness to 4 year olds (funny right?) and yoga to adults. 

I guess part of me is a little down on myself for winding up in this place with a multi-year taper ahead of me. And I have gained some weight, which for me in the yoga biz is its own distressor. 

Mornings are the worst though. And it IS morning. This too shall pass. 

Love and light,

D

[DMV64]

The good news is today got better! I feel almost normal now. I practiced floating through fear (very helpful). And went on with my day. The kids were a little out of control this morning but I made it through that. I am glad you are all here!

[DMV64]

Should I still post my symptoms like I was? Mods? I am not sure what to do now. Today has been all over the place. Started hard. Got better. Now worse. All anxiety and dread.

Anyway, let me know if it is helpful or necessary to post like I was with the times and drugs taken.

[DMV64]

One of the things that really helps me is writing. Maybe I will post some of my blogging here. Not sure if it is appropriate to do?

[DMV64]

I feel really kind of desperate today. just like crying all day, don't know what will make it better, putting thoughts together really hard. Also would really love to hear from anyone. Feel so alone.

[DMV64]

Today I felt pretty good most of the day. And then watched a sad movie that really affected me. Floods of memories coming in. Memories of feeling unsafe, and I guess the feeling of unsafety that happens with the dread in the morning. Anyway just thought I would check in here. Still holding on 1st drop of taper.

[DMV64]

So Sunday was pretty good. Today stinks. Depression, general feeling of unease. I seem to have one good day and one bad day. Nothing changed on my drug schedule, just windowsand waves I guess. 

[bubble]

Hello DSV and sorry I haven't paid you a visit in a while. I got back to work over two weeks ago and am very busy plus the work depletes me so badly that I'm left with zero energy.

 

I like this new way of reporting a lot. It tells me a lot more about how you feel and how things are going. Now your pattern has been established so it's not necessary to have all the times you take the drugs. one good day and one bad is not so bad actually. 

 

Are you still on 18 mg of Geodon? Would you say you noticed any symptoms that could be attributed to the reduction?

 

For me that was always important in my taper: to observe how long after the cut the symptoms would appear (or the existing one intensify), how long they would be at their peak and then start diminish before settling to my baseline. That's actually called listening to your body. After that return to the ore-cut level of functioning I would wait for a week or two before making the next cut.

On ‎09‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 9:18 PM, DMV64 said:

Maybe I will post some of my blogging here. Not sure if it is appropriate to do?

probably it is appropriate Many of us post lots of different things so go ahead. 

[DMV64]

3 minutes ago, bubble said:

Are you still on 18 mg of Geodon

Hello Bubble!

Good to hear from you. Yes I am still at 18, hoping to make the next cut in about a week. The first few days were the most acute as far as feeling the initial cut. After that, I seem to have leveled off to the one or two good days to one bad or at least challenging day. It is almost always worst in the morning and better at night. Today is starting to get better. I have to teach tonight so that is always a bit of dread since I am in this titrating space. I do have a little underlying dread but then once I am teaching I feel much better because I am out of my head.

Sorry to hear about the depletion. Do you work FT?

-D

[bubble]

It's kind of normal for the symptoms to be worse in the morning due to the daily fluctuations in cortisol which is at it's highest in the morning when it prepares as for waking up.

 

A cut in about a week sounds ok given the relative absence of more pronounced symptoms. After you go through a few more cuts you will get used to this 'routine' of symptoms increasing and diminishing. I used to teach also and now sometimes give presentations and I would always feel quite nervous/dread. I guess it's a kind of stage freight compounded by WD.

 

Yes I work full time but looking into ways of making my work situation more tolerable. Sitting at the office for 8 hours every day is just becoming too much. And I've been doing it for 9 years now through 2 CTs and now 4 years of tapering...Most of the times I have no idea how I managed...

[DMV64]

2 minutes ago, bubble said:

kind of stage freight

This is exactly what it feels like. Somedays I do not know how I do it. I guess just like you are doing it, just keep going. 

Maybe I will write today. I know it will help me. My writing always does.

[DMV64]

Well, here goes. Going to attach a recent blog entry...

The Walk.docx

[DMV64]

Honestly, I am like two different people in the day and the night. I feel so relieved and happy and normal at night. And in the day I am well, not that. I hang on knowing it will get better. 

[Hellbutrin]

5 minutes ago, DMV64 said:

Honestly, I am like two different people in the day and the night. I feel so relieved and happy and normal at night. And in the day I am well, not that. I hang on knowing it will get better. 

I absolutely relate to that. It’s hard for me to function during the day, but for some reason I get a small measure of peace at night. 

[DMV64]

On 11/14/2017 at 7:39 PM, Hellbutrin said:

I get a small measure of peace at nigh

Thank GOD for the nights. For real. I hold on to them to help me remember it is not always like this.

[DMV64]

Morning check in. Thursdays are a day I have to be on. Having morning dread. Feel tired of this crappy feeling. Being scared of everything stinks.

[DMV64]

Today was better. I think I want to split my klonopin dose as earlier suggested though. Thinking about it...