MaryZ: long term side effect hole

[MaryZ]

I weaned off 12 years of Celexa in January 2017. I had NO idea what I was getting myself into and was clueless that forums like this existed. I was not educated in tapering (obviously if you read my signature). It is now October and I am still battling withdrawals. It has gotten slowly and incrementally less harsh, but I daily battle the most gut wrenching feelings of depression I have ever had. To the point I want to pull my hair out and take a pill to just make it go away. I also still deal with anxiety often!

 

This is far worse than before I ever went on an AD. I feel raw, weird, not-normal, sad, disconnected from my body/people/the world, empty, hollow, pessimistic, nostalgic for the past, anxious, fearful, and sometimes hopeless. Some days these feelings last only a few hours. Other days it’s most of the day. I need guidance! I have changed my diet, worked on breath work, meditation, yoga, had my hormones checked and treated, tried amino acids. Maybe it’s getting better? But when the feelings hit, I feel flung back to ground zero. 

 

Is it too late to go back on meds and taper correctly? Have I created a big mess for myself that I can’t go back to “do right”? 

 

I realize being sick or dealing with anything stressful in life make my withdrawal symptoms worse! 3 steps forward, 2 steps back. It feels endless. 

 

Need guidance. Encouragement. Help please! 

 

[ChessieCat]

Hi Mary and welcome to SA,

 

You have done a good job on your signature.  Thank you. 

 

Q:  Are there any other drugs and or supplements (including vitamins) that you are taking?

 

I will give you the link to the reinstatement topic so you can have a read about it.  If you do decide that you would like to try reinstatement please let us know before you restart Celexa.  We can suggest a very tiny dose which you could try.  These drugs are strong and your brain will have already made some adaptations since you have been off.  If you take took much you might make things worse.  Please read Post #1 of this topic and let us know what you think:

 

About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms

 

You might also find these helpful in understanding what you are experiencing:

 

Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

 

Dr Joseph Glenmullen's WD Symptoms Checklist

 

Brain Remodelling

Video:  Healing From Antidepressants - Patterns of Recovery

 

Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

 

Non-drug techniques to cope

 

This is your own Intro topic where you can ask questions and journal your progress.

[ChessieCat]

I just want to add that if you are experiencing such bad withdrawal symptoms that you feel that you need to take something, it is better to try a very tiny dose of the drug you previously took.  If you go to a doctor complaining about the symptoms they will most probably tell you that it is your "condition" returning and that you need to be on a drug.  They might (a) put you back on Celexa, but at a much higher dose than we would suggest (b) try you with another drug, which may not help the withdrawal and then they might switch drugs or add another one or (c) both (a) & (b).

 

If you try a different drug you may still have withdrawal from the original drug and also get start up and/or side effects from the new drug and you might even have a bad reaction to the new drug.  You will not be able to tell what is causing what.

 

Edited to add:  Is it withdrawal or relapse?  Or something else?

 

How do you talk to a doctor about tapering and withdrawal?

What should I expect from my doctor about withdrawal symptoms?

 

Edited October 27, 2017 by ChessieCat
added withdrawal/relapse link

[MaryZ]

Thank you for your reply. 

 

Vitamins/supplements I currently take: vitamin C, vitamin D, B complex vitamin, zinc, pro-biotic, multi-vitamin, red yeast rice, CoQ10, pharmaGABA as needed for anxiety, Bio-identical testosterone and progesterone. 

 

I will read read through some of the links you sent me. I have experienced my doctor recommending another AD. I recently called an office that is an integrative medical office. They said after my initial evaluation with the doctor he’d likely recommend a brain recovery program. I think they try an IV drip of some sort. Have you heard of any of the following treatments? I’ve certainly tried many amino acids in pill form with only placebo-like initial success, then back to square one. On their website the treatment included:

 

- NAD Amino Acid Therapy

- Phospholipid Therapy (PK Protocol)

- Orthomolecular Nutritional Psychiatry

- Detoxification

- Drug Desensitization

- Life Coaching

- Pastoral Coaching

- Stress Release, Trauma Resolution

 

THANKS AGAIN AND I WILL GET BACK TO YUU AFTER READING THE LINKS YOU SENT. I’VE ALREADY READ A FEW. 

[ChessieCat]

Thank you for providing the additional information.

 

Because the CNS (central nervous system) becomes sensitised due to getting off the drug too quickly we need to be very cautious of what we take and do.  Our natural reaction is that we want to do or take something to fix ourselves.  In the case of withdrawal from psychiatric drugs, doing nothing is actually doing something.  It is giving the brain the time and environment which it needs to heal.

 

B vitamins, especially B6, can be activating.  hypersensitive-to-b-vitamin-or-b-vitamin-complex

 

Detoxing during withdrawal can be problematic because it can stress the body.  During withdrawal we need to keep ourselves as stress free as possible, even good stress can increase symptoms.  Many people mistakenly believe that we need to detox to get rid of the psychiatric drug out of our body.  This is not correct.  When we take the drug/s they change our brain.  Tapering slowing allows the brain to adapt to not getting as much of the drug as you go, which generally means that symptoms are minimal and of short duration.  The brain is an incredible thing and is always trying to regain homoeostasis (ie correcting itself or trying to get back to "factory settings").  Going off the drug cold turkey or too quickly means that the brain is trying do this but it is trying to make a lot of changes all at the same time which results in withdrawal symptoms.

 

I am a bit concerned about you taking pharmaGABA, especially as needed.  Doing a quick search I saw that it is not known if it crosses into the brain.  If it does, and you are only taking it intermittently, then I am assuming that it would be like taking a psychiatric drug and skipping doses.  Skipping Days vs Every Day Dosing Graph  This bounces the brain around because, as explained above, the brain is constantly trying to regain homoeostasis.  For example if someone is taking St John's Wort, even though it is a natural product, because it affects the brain, it needs to be tapered.

 

Stress release / trauma resolution.  I don't think this would be a good idea simply because it will add stress and your CNS needs to be kept calm as mentioned above.

 

This might be what you are referring to:  iv-nutrient-therapy-or-myers-cocktail

 

Even acupuncture can cause problems if the wrong treatment is given.  Acupuncture - Posts #6 & #8 (not detox or stimulation)

 

The only 2 supplements that SA recommends are Magnesium and Omega-3 Fish Oil.  When introducing anything new to start at a low dose (perhaps 1/4 of the suggested dose) and build up.  Also, only try one thing at a time, because if you get a bad reaction you will not know what is causing it.  It can also be a good idea to keep notes on paper so you can see any changes that you may not notice.

 

We also encourage members to learn and use Non-drug techniques to cope

 

I hope the information I have provided is helpful.  If I have missed anything that you particularly want a response to please mention it in your next post, or search the site.  There are many existing topics on SA.  I use google and include survivingantidepressants.org in the search.

[bruno2016]

i am not too familiar with re-instating drugs so cant really say what is best. Once I went off, I was determined never to mess with those drugs again. So in a way, I tried to just tough it out. It was horrible the first year but steadily got better around the two year mark. I know that doesnt sound very nice (suffering for two years!) but i can tell you that after 6 years of being off, I am nearly fully recovered and it feels wonderful to have a drug free life. 

 

I am all for doing it the right way so if you feel like thats the best thing for you then go for it. Just remember that the worst symptoms are temporary and you will recover with time and maybe some other interventions if necessary. You are still in that tough phase of protracted WD and believe me, i know how it feels. Its a very tough spot and only those who experience it will know and understand how hard it is. 

 

Whichever way you choose to go, just remember you will eventually level out and regain more balance in your day to day mood/living. 

[ChessieCat]

Bruno, thanks for stopping by and encouraging Mary with your own story.

 

Here is the link:  protracted-withdrawal-or-paws-post-acute-withdrawal-syndrome-how-long-does-it-last

 

[MaryZ]

1 hour ago, ChessieCat said:

 

Thank you for providing the additional information.

 

Because the CNS (central nervous system) becomes sensitised due to getting off the drug too quickly we need to be very cautious of what we take and do.  Our natural reaction is that we want to do or take something to fix ourselves.  In the case of withdrawal from psychiatric drugs, doing nothing is actually doing something.  It is giving the brain the time and environment which it needs to heal.

 

This is one of the most profound things I’ve yet read about my recovery. It so IS human nature to take another pill or do a program or do something to make it go away! It’s hard to be patient even though for years I was taking an AD that had no positive effects... it was only preventing me from this world of withdrawal. Thank you for your advice and wisdom. I want to stop the B vitamins for sure. I will also try to eliminate the GABA. My fear is having another panic attack. My brother had a heart attack at 43 so the family history scares me even more (I’m 47). 

 

I have taken magnesium in the past. I will look into that again. 

 

Thanks again. 

[ChessieCat]

You are welcome.  When we understand what is happening we don't feel as scared because we know what it is.

 

This was created by one of the members of SA:  Anxiety Stuff - all kinds of stuff about anxiety attacks and things that help ...

 

This is good to use:  Audio:  First Aid for Panic (4 minutes)

 

And Claire Weekes is a favourite of lots of SA members:

 

Audio:  How to Recover from Anxiety - Dr Claire Weekes

 

VIDEO: Dr. Claire Weekes

Claire Weekes' Method of Recovering from a Sensitized Nervous System

 

If you go to YouTube and type in Claire Weekes there are lots of videos there.

 

Vitamins:  If you do need/want to include these, take them separately, and not as a complex.  To search SA use google and type in survivingantidepressants.org vitamins

[MaryZ]

I wanted to know if you know of anyone who has ever tried re-instating after being off meds for as long as I have been (9.5 months) and their experience. Today has been a much better day but the 3 days prior were unrelentingly difficult and sad. It’s in those moments that I feel I can’t endure this. 

 

Also, how do I respond to someone like Bruno2016 who sent me his message?

 

thank you. 

[ChessieCat]

If you are getting to the desperate stage with your withdrawal symptoms, my personal opinion is that it would be better to try a very small reinstatement dose of the last drug you took instead of going to the medical profession who would most likely (a) put you on the same drug but at a much higher dose than SA suggests and you may have a bad reaction; (b) change you to a different drug which might not get rid of withdrawal symptoms, you might get start up and/or side effects or possibly even a bad reaction from the new drug, and you won't know what is causing the problems; (c) put you a combination of drugs.

 

In your case, because your last dose was about 3.33mg/day (dividing 10mg by 3 for taking every third day), you might find that even a tiny amount like 0.25mg or 0.5mg might take the edge off you withdrawal symptoms.  This might not sound like much but these drugs are strong.

 

About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms

 

Keep Notes on Paper

Rate Symptoms Daily to Check Patterns and Progress
 

Dr Joseph Glenmullen's WD Symptoms Checklist

 

 

If you want to post in Bruno's Intro topic, hold your mouse over his avatar and click on Find Content.  On the left click on Topics and find his Intro and click on that.

[MaryZ]

13 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

In your case, because your last dose was about 3.33mg/day (dividing 10mg by 3 for taking every third day), you might find that even a tiny amount like 0.25mg or 0.5mg might take the edge off you withdrawal symptoms

How do I get a prescription that small? 

 

I do think my doctor will be open to it. I have an appointment scheduled for November 13. I am going to see how I do until then. I am able to message him through the My Chart app and he gets right back to me IF I feel I can't wait until 11/13 to discuss. 

 

I will definitely  let you know if I decide to re-instate before I do.  I had a good talk with my husband last night and he was very understanding and wants me to communicate with him on how my mood is. Sometimes I stop talking to him because I feel like he's just "over it" and my moodiness. He was very understanding and supportive so that was encouraging. 

 

Thank you for your guidance. 

[MollyN]

Hi MaryZ!

 

I'm so glad to read you were able to be open with your husband and his reaction was so supportive - it's a fine balance trying to gain much-needed support from your partner whilst trying not to swamp them with the extent of what we're actually feeling.

 

I really identify with your experience and I got a heap out of reading your description of how you were feeling - I'm not especially good at describing those feeling, but you did it beautifully. I guess we all just wanted to feel better and got a whole bundle more than we ever anticipated!

 

I would imagine the panic attacks that resulted in the celexa prescription were due to the withdrawal from zoloft. Such a slippery slide!

 

Although it's very hard to appreciate, it is truly good news that after 3 days of feeling dreadful that you are into a window now - that is, a let up in those feelings of dread/hopelessness etc. ChessieCat linked the windows and waves link in her first post to you, maybe it would be worth perusing it again to see how it may be reflected in your experience. 

 

I do want to encourage you, like ChessieCat and Bruno, that you will eventually get better, it won't always be like this! Most of us find we come down quite a long road to come to acceptance of our new normal and a deepened appreciation of what we'd always taken for granted. Oh and self-reliance is something I'm learning! I'd always just wanted to escape discomfort and emotional/physical pain of any description - sheesh look where that got me - a big fat paxil withdrawal

 

Great big hugs xxxmollyn

 

[MaryZ]

Hi Molly. Thank you for your kind words and support. It helps to hear from anyone who knows exactly what I’m feeling and going through. I did look at the links about windows and waves and now use that terminology regularly to self-describe  

 

The panic attacks in my 30’s may have been exacerbated by Zoloft WD. However, I remember having them as a teenager (rarely) and in my 20’s, before I ever took an AD! So there is some root issue from childhood I’m sure. They are no fun and the fact that my brother had a heart attack at 43 always makes me wonder if that’s what’s happening. Ugh. 

 

I cannot hear enough that “this will get better”. Thank you for the reassurance. It is mind boggling to me how the hopefulness felt when you’re in a window does not carry over well when the waves come crashing down. It’s as if my memory is wiped clean of any positive memory. But the window I’m having today is SO encouraging and a light to what life may look like when I’m fully healed. Or closer to fully healed. 

 

Thank you for all you do to help people like me. This is one tough road but i know I need to trust the process. 

 

💕

[MollyN]

Enjoy your exquisite window honey!! I'll be here to remind you they exist when it feels like they never existed. Here's to healing!!

[FarmGirlWorks]

I totally relate to not being able to carry over or remember what a window feels like when you're in a wave. When I was in a nice window of 4 weeks a couple months ago, I made a mental note of the walk I was on and that I felt hopeful and cheery about the future. Now, when I've been in a wave for over a week, I cannot "feel" the window but I can remember what it looked like at that moment and that I felt good. Combined with this forum and others' tales of recovery are what keep me going.

[nz11]

Mary any update

How did that doctors consultation go?