neroli: is this benzo withdrawal, or other drugs interacting

[neroli]

@bubble @Altostrata

 

I was looking through the "Taking Multiple psych drugs?  Which to taper first? and saw this quote that Bubble had posted.  If I taper the Nortriptyline, does that mean the Diaz will metabolise faster and make it seem like a dosage cut in the Diaz?

 

 

Anyway, I think I figured out from "alternative" sources that my AD was interacting with my benzo, so stopping the AD made the benzo metabolize faster. So it was like a dosage cut, even though the dose was the same. I have maybe 80% recovered from that now. So I did a quick goggle on your drugs...even a mainstream source said both those ADs have moderate potential to interact with your benzo. So you probably had a really significant drop in your benzo level once the ADs got out of your system. Just something to think about.

[Altostrata]

neroli, forgiving yourself for mistakes and learning from them is an ongoing work -- you have to do it every day, maybe several times a day!

[neroli]

Hello Altostrata

 

Thank you for your encouraging words.  I certainly need to forgive myself for taking drugs at the beginning of 2017 when I was having such aweful anxiety I didn't know how I would get through - it was a massive wave and I was drug-free,  I couldn't ride it and I was taking lorazepam PRN.   After 5 or so weeks I gave in and decided I needed to try the meds.  just incase re-instatement would help.  That's how I come to be on three drugs to taper now.  

 

I'm not sure whether you comment relates to my post yesterday where I quoted a piece where someone had said that stopping an AD had made the benzo metabolise faster which made it like a drop in the benzo dose even though the dose was the same.

 

I guess I'm just worried about cuts in the Nortrip. and flipping out with anxiety or something.

 

I'm finding that the change to summer time and a slight change in dosing times is having an impact on shakes and wobbly legs (experiencing more).

 

I forgive myself for being in this mess....I forgive myself for being in this mess....

 

Thanks for your support.

 

Neroli

 

 

[Rabe]

Hope thinks are going ok for you, neroli!💜

[neroli]

Thank you @Rabe - today was much better, I think I'm evening out after the change of clocks.  Got to the office and didn't feel so wobbly.  Hope you are dong ok, too. 💜

[neroli]

Yesterday: changed my bed linen and washed it, weeded some of the big ones off the drive, did my grocery shopping, went out to see a friend in the afternoon, cooked a different dinner, had calm spots in the afternoon where I could knit and watch videos about Acceptance Therapy and feel some hope of coming to terms with the disability I have and the long process of stabilising and reducing. it was a hopeful day..

 

Today:  after not such a good night's sleep - legs like wooden poles, walk with friend seemed endless and I wasn't connecting with her as usual, had a doze in the afternoon so that I could have the energy to go to book club - benzo doze, woke up feeling aweful, went to book club - listened to everyone doing lovely things in their lives which I can't do at the moment.  Feel shaky and anxious and tired out.  Hope at the bottom of the barrel again.  Fear that legs will worsen and I won't get to work.  Depression.  Thoughts that I don't have the strength to carry on.  

 

Two days: two very different experiences.

[Carmie]

Hi Neroli, 

 

You did an amazing job describing how things can change from one day to the next. I think the moral of the story is take each moment as it comes. There are bad days and hours n there are better days and hours. 

 

Sending you hugs🤗

 

 

[neroli]

6 hours ago, Carmie said:

Sending you hugs🤗

Thank you, Carmie.  Thank you for your message of encouragement and for the hugs (sending them back to you).  I have an almost mantra that I repeat when I'm in the lowest depths "tomorrow may be different, let's see how things are tomorrow".  It just keeps me going.  I'm going to go to the office today, though I feel terribly shaky and weak.  I may have to leave early, I don't know.

 

I hope you are ok today.  You have been so brave coping with all the medication damage and your long and challenging taper off Seroquel.

 

May we all keep the strength to keep going.

 

Neroli. 💜

[Carmie]

On 10/8/2018 at 4:32 AM, neroli said:

Thank you, Carmie.  Thank you for your message of encouragement and for the hugs (sending them back to you).  I have an almost mantra that I repeat when I'm in the lowest depths "tomorrow may be different, let's see how things are tomorrow".  It just keeps me going.  I'm going to go to the office today, though I feel terribly shaky and weak.  I may have to leave early, I don't know.

 

I hope you are ok today.  You have been so brave coping with all the medication damage and your long and challenging taper off Seroquel.

 

May we all keep the strength to keep going.

 

Neroli. 💜

 

I like your positive saying Neroli, 

 

“ Tomorrow may be different. Let’s see how things are tomorrow.” It’s funny how things can change so dramatically, even within the same day. We can get windows n waves a million times in one day. One moment we are not to bad and then the next minute crash. 

 

Im all for distractions, just continuing to find lots of distractions to get through each day. 

 

Hope you coped okay at the office.

 

Sending you sunshine☀️☀️

[neroli]

Increased symptoms:

 

Hunger all the time - even straight after eating

Urination - almost constant - bladder has constant need to wee feeling and there is always something to wee.

[neroli]

8 hours ago, Carmie said:

Im all for distractions, just continuing to find lots of distractions to get through each day. 

 

Hope you coped okay at the office.

Thanks for popping in Carmie.  Distractions help - the office is a distraction, though somewhat stressful at times.  I managed three days in this week, so far.  Monday, ugh.  Tuesday, better.  Today, ugh, then better.  Getting pains in my joints now - possibly because my legs are straining so much to work.

 

Distractions at home are harder - I can do Netflix and knitting and sudoku - but it seems like I can only do them at certain times in the day, or I don't get 'into' them. Smoking is one I do - but I am trying to keep this down as much as possible.  Getting up and walking around the house frequently  is something I'm having a go at developing.  Mindfulness is not distracting at present, maybe needs more practice.

 

Thanks for the sunshine - we have wind and storms forecast.

 

Warmest wishes to you

 

Neroli 💜

[Rosetta]

I hope your increased symptoms have subsided.  I get those, too.  Thinking of you. - R

[Carmie]

On 10/10/2018 at 5:50 PM, neroli said:

Thanks for popping in Carmie.  Distractions help - the office is a distraction, though somewhat stressful at times.  I managed three days in this week, so far.  Monday, ugh.  Tuesday, better.  Today, ugh, then better.  Getting pains in my joints now - possibly because my legs are straining so much to work.

 

Distractions at home are harder - I can do Netflix and knitting and sudoku - but it seems like I can only do them at certain times in the day, or I don't get 'into' them. Smoking is one I do - but I am trying to keep this down as much as possible.  Getting up and walking around the house frequently  is something I'm having a go at developing.  Mindfulness is not distracting at present, maybe needs more practice.

 

Thanks for the sunshine - we have wind and storms forecast.

 

Warmest wishes to you

 

Neroli 💜

 

Hi Neroli, 

 

I’m glad you find that some distractions help. I can’t work due to illness but I’m glad that you are finding going to the office a few times a week a good distraction.

 

Now, I really don’t think smoking is a good distraction.😜

 

Im sorry you find distractions at home hard. I make myself do them even if I don’t feel like doing them. Today I’m stuck in bed but I’ve been making myself do a diamond painting of a park. Major nature freak here! The end result will be I will have something else that makes me smile on my “happy wall” in the bedroom. 

 

I’ve been listening to YouTube videos too. I feel shocking n in survival mode but I will somehow get to the end of the day. Here’s to taking a minute at a time.

 

Sending hugs🤗

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rabe]

Hi Carmie...bless you and your spirit!!!💜

[neroli]

3 hours ago, Rosetta said:

I hope your increased symptoms have subsided.  I get those, too.  Thinking of you. - R

Thank you, Rosetta, it almost feels like TMI posting about "weeing" but it's the way it's rolling at the moment.  More joys of the drug-train!  Things settled a bit this afternoon, unusually, so I've had some restful periods.  I've started to try and get myself up from my computer more and do some gentle stretches, or walks round the house, or even (very) light house chores and I think that helps me calm down and can then go back focus better on work.

 

I hope your day has been ok - you've been dealing with some stretching situations lately, have to say you're a trooper.

 

Warmest

 

Neroli 💜

[neroli]

2 hours ago, Carmie said:

I make myself do them even if I don’t feel like doing them. Today I’m stuck in bed but I’ve been making myself do a diamond painting of a park. Major nature freak here! The end result will be I will have something else that makes me smile on my “happy wall” in the bedroom. 

 

Carmie, hello and thanks for your message.  I have to admire that you can make yourself do your projects (a diamond painting....hmmm not heard of that) and that you will put it on your happy wall to enjoy.  Anyone who can get to the end of the day, feeling how you are and ill in bed, taking a minute at a time has my utmost respect.  It's inspiring..  And I realise I'm still fortunate to be able to get to the office - even if I feel gruesome.

 

Best of wishes from a Southerly gale-blowing and rainy Wellington!

 

Neroli 💜

[neroli]

22 minutes ago, Rabe said:

Hi Carmie...bless you and your spirit!!!💜

Quite, Rabe.

 

Hope you are doing ok - another trojan navigating the trenches, always there with an encouraging word.

 

Wishing you the best

 

Neroli 💜

[Rabe]

Thank you Neroli...hope things are going ok for you today!💜

[neroli]

Trying a 2.5mg (about 2.7% 0f 90 mg) reduction in Nortriptyline, from today 15 October.

[wantrelief]

I hope the cut goes smoothly, Neroli.  I will be thinking about you - WR.

[Rosetta]

Rooting for you! -R

[neroli]

@Rosetta @wantrelief

 

Thank you both so much.  Am trying to not pre-empt what it will go like.  Hope it's a small enough cut to not wobble me too much.

 

I do appreciate your support.

 

Wishing you both the best.

 

Neroli 💜

[Carmie]

On 10/12/2018 at 4:26 PM, neroli said:

Carmie, hello and thanks for your message.  I have to admire that you can make yourself do your projects (a diamond painting....hmmm not heard of that) and that you will put it on your happy wall to enjoy.  Anyone who can get to the end of the day, feeling how you are and ill in bed, taking a minute at a time has my utmost respect.  It's inspiring..  And I realise I'm still fortunate to be able to get to the office - even if I feel gruesome.

 

Best of wishes from a Southerly gale-blowing and rainy Wellington!

 

Neroli 💜

 

On 10/15/2018 at 5:34 PM, neroli said:

Trying a 2.5mg (about 2.7% 0f 90 mg) reduction in Nortriptyline, from today 15 October.

 

Hi Neroli, 

 

How are you doing so far with your latest cut? Is it still rainy with big gales in Wellington? I love rain, we had rain for a number of days recently n it made me smile. As you can imagine, Queensland is sunny most of the year. 

 

Diamond Paintings are just canvases you buy with paintings on them already n you stick different coloured resin beads on them. The canvas is sticky where the numbers n letters are. The different colours correspond to different numbers n letters n you just stick them on there. It doesn’t take too much brain power. It’s like paint by number but instead it’s stick by numbers. I must say it’s an amazing distraction when one is too braindead to do their own art. 

 

Colouring in is a good distraction too but i havent done that for ages. I did sooo much colouring in in the past when going through waves. Ive got a canvas that I’d like to do some of my own art on but I just don’t have the concentration at the moment so diamond paintings it is. There are such pretty ones out there. 

 

Hope your latest drop is going well.

 

Sending hugs💚🤗

On 10/12/2018 at 4:04 PM, Rabe said:

Hi Carmie...bless you and your spirit!!!💜

 

Thanks😘

 

 

[neroli]

Hello Carmie

 

Thank you for popping in.

 

6 hours ago, Carmie said:

How are you doing so far with your latest cut?

 

Well, it's day 5 of the cut and so far I don't think there's been any major reaction.  I may have had a touch more anxiety and my legs are at the moment feeling pretty achy and leaden - but I will have to have a closer look at my symptom diary to see if this is increased symptoms or just the normal pattern and the end of a tiring week.  

 

I went to a meeting of 100 or so of our group today and we were working on what makes things work well, what doesn't, and how can we maximise the working well stuff.  It's all about talking in groups and writing things on sticky notes for management to take back to the office and ponder.  I don't know if you've been in the "corporate" world but if you have you may recognise the sort of meeting I'm talking about.  I was dreading going, 1) because I'd be taken out of my usual routine, working in a different venue and interacting with a number of people I don't know - and I know that causes more fatigue for me,  2) I'm pretty cynical about sticky notes and management speak and 3) I"ve got this bloomin' annoying need to wee a million times a day and a constant hungry feeling which means I need to manage my proximity to the ladies and taking snacks at regular intervals.  But I did go and it was actually ok, even quite engaging - the weeing and hunger stuff didn't really have much of an impact and I got to talk to some people I'd never talked to before which was good for creating foundations for good working relations.

 

I am stuffed now.  In bed and feeling the aches and muscle stiffness.

 

We had a beautiful sunny day today, no wind and up to 17 degrees.  The Wellington harbour looks sooooo wonderful in those conditions.  It's an often heard statement that "you can't beat Wellington on a day like today" and really, I don't think you can.  It's a gorgeous city and has a heart.  My hope is that I can restore my level of fitness and leg-power to be able to resume walking on the waterfront and round the Cuba Street area on a Friday after work, watching the day draw in and then have some noodles or Viertnamese food.  That's going to be in quite a few months if it does happen........

 

Thanks for describing the diamond paintings - it sounds like something that can be quite a calming and absorbing activity.  I have a friend with CRPS who has great difficulty with pain and walking and she does mosaics - pretty similar to diamond painting as a creative and distracting pastime.  

 

We have a long weekend - it's Labour Day - so I've got time to fill, which probably means knitting.  I've got a book that is quite interesting as well - but reading is darned hard work at times.  And I could post my symptom diaries to keep up with the taper - but I'm not holding my breath on that, it's just too much to do all that typing sometimes.

 

I hope you are doing ok - you will of course be warm, so hoping it's a nice warmth for you.

 

Best of wishes

 

Neroli 💜💪

 

PS was thinking today what an amazing site SA is - facilitated by volunteers - all the background admin and site management done by volunteers.  Just amazing.

[neroli]

First 6 days of 2.5mg cut of Nortriptyline seemed to go fine - no noticeable increase in symptoms.  Yesterday (Monday 22 October) took off another 2.5mg - today has been quite difficult - increase in anxiety, increase in leg weakness/leadenness, increase in fatigue, increase in need to urinate.  Will try the 5mg cut again tonight and see how tomorrow goes - then if it's bad will probably updose again and stabilise, then try a micro-taper (I was trying the Brass Monkey slide).  Must keep hopes up that I can decrease the drugs at a reasonable rate and not crash.

 

A bit concerned in case I am further kindling my system by trying cuts and then updosing again.

 

Haven't updated my signature because I don't know whether I'll be staying at this dose:  As of today my dosage is 85mg Nortriptyline.

[wantrelief]

I am sorry to hear you've had a spike in symptoms, Neroli.  I am keeping my fingers crossed this resolves soon.

[neroli]

Thank you @wantrelief good of you to send your support.  So far this morning I don't feel as spiked.  Maybe it will calm down over the week.  You seem to be able to make fairly consistent drops in the Citalopram, so I hope it's going well for you.

 

Best wishes

 

Neroli 💜

[Rosetta]

Thinking of you. -R

[Rabe]

Thinking about you Neroli...think it wise to listen to your body and not push...take care!!!💜

[neroli]

6 hours ago, Rosetta said:

Thinking of you. -R

Thank you, Rosetta.  Pleased to say today was much better - substantially less anxiety and fatigue - I even didn't fall asleep on the train home which is lovely (benzo dozes are the pits when you wake up again, very groggy and in the swamp of yucky thoughts).  Thinking of you, too.  You, Rabe, Wantrelief come into my mind often and I take heart from the way you are all keeping on keeping on.

 

Neroli 💜 

[neroli]

3 hours ago, Rabe said:

Thinking about you Neroli...think it wise to listen to your body and not push...take care!!!💜

Thank you, Rabe.  As I mentioned above to Rosetta, it's been a better day, fatigue and anxiety lower.  The legs are still heavy but it helps if I'm not feeling so tired.  When I feel better like I did today, I get fantasising about how fast I can taper and start putting in plans to do this that and the other to edge my way down.  BUT, as you say, the body will tell me what I can do and I am still learning the effects of tapers, so it will be a bit of trial and error to get to be intimate with the symptoms.

 

I do hope you are ok, you've had/are having a rough time of late and I can only think that that is dispiriting.  I hope something balances out for you and you can find your next opportunity for tapering.  It sucks but you are keeping up so well and being such a support to others.

 

Best wishes

 

Neroli 💜💪

[Rabe]

@neroli Oh, thank you so much Neroli!  Im so glad to hear you are feeling better and, yes, understand how on a good day its full speed ahead!  And then the next day can be totally different and the reality of it all sets i again...but its fun at the time and so hopeful to think of moving ahead.  My doctor and therapist always talk about resisting or trying to help me get unstuck but tapering for me inpatient.  What they seem to not understand is that if WE dont continue to listen to our body and mind, because they are not, then we will only set ourselves back once again.  Th difficulty I find is how to listen and find a way to know the time and means to move ahead...I get quite lost in it all.

I have been dispirited, Neroli...makes me sad to feel so ill that I cannot even get up out of bed...thats not me.  Ill push until I fall over..which I have done tapering this far, over and over.  I still find I surge on even the slightest better day and am more quickly than ever set back it seems.  I hope I can find the next opportunity as well with the help of the mods.  I wish you well in your tapering as well...take care! Hugs!! 💜

[Carmie]

Hi Neroli, 

 

Glad to hear that you’re having a better day. Was just wondering what you were saying here. You cut down  by 2.5mg and stayed there for a week, then you cut down another 2.5mg on Monday but got bad symptoms but then decided to do another 5mg drop on Tuesday anyway? Did I read that right? Did you not leave a week inbetween the next 2.5mg? 

 

Im sure the Wellington Harbour is amazing. I love being anywhere near water. I’m glad you are visualising having some lovely adventures around there, yes walking near the waterfront is always a lovely thought. 

 

Doing mosaics sounds like fun. Okay, where are some plates I can smash!😀

 

Glad you had a good day again.

 

Sending hugs🤗💚

 

On 10/23/2018 at 4:54 PM, neroli said:

First 6 days of 2.5mg cut of Nortriptyline seemed to go fine - no noticeable increase in symptoms.  Yesterday (Monday 22 October) took off another 2.5mg - today has been quite difficult - increase in anxiety, increase in leg weakness/leadenness, increase in fatigue, increase in need to urinate.  Will try the 5mg cut again tonight and see how tomorrow goes - then if it's bad will probably updose again and stabilise, then try a micro-taper (I was trying the Brass Monkey slide).  Must keep hopes up that I can decrease the drugs at a reasonable rate and not crash.

 

A bit concerned in case I am further kindling my system by trying cuts and then updosing again.

 

Haven't updated my signature because I don't know whether I'll be staying at this dose:  As of today my dosage is 85mg Nortriptyline.

 

[neroli]

7 hours ago, Carmie said:

You cut down  by 2.5mg and stayed there for a week, then you cut down another 2.5mg on Monday but got bad symptoms but then decided to do another 5mg drop on Tuesday anyway?

Hello Carmie

 

I didn't write it very well, I could tell in my bones it didn't read right but I left it because I thought it might just pass muster.  I cut down by 2.5mg on 15 October, then another 2.5mg on 22 October, one week after the first cut.  So the total cut from the original 90mg after the 22 October cut was 5mg (2.5 + 2.5).  So that was what I meant when I said I'd try the 5mg cut again - not that I chunked off a whole 5mg on top of the previous cuts.  Hope that makes more sense.  So I'm still at 5mg off the original 90mg dose.  And so far, so good as the anxiety has calmed down.  Legs are a bit achier and tighter than I thought they would be tonight.

 

I live very close to the sea and have walks along the beach when the wind isn't too high.  Rationally, I can see it is beautiful and it would be something to savour and enjoy but whatever it is that is affecting me at the moment (whether it's the drugs, or the withdrawal symptoms, or loss of hope), it is rare that I can feel that appreciation.  One day, that will return, I guess.  For now, I just keep doing what I can and notice that there Is sea and sand and sun and clouds and native plants.

 

Funny you should mention smashing plates, I had an idea I could go to an app. shop and get some plates for my friend to smash for her mosaics.  If I'm mobile and up to it one weekend I will do that.

 

Thanks for the hugs - sending some right back to you.  One thing this situation seems to have done is to open me up to giving more hugs (I'm British and stereotypically reserved in that area) so maybe that is something to be grateful for.  If I ever get really well, I wonder if I will revert to type and stop the hugging business!  😄

 

 

[Carmie]

Hi Neroli, 

 

I was just thinking if you’re having trouble doing the 2.5mg weekly you could make the dose smaller. When I finally stabilise n am able to taper again I’m going to do 1.25mg a week for a month n then a couple of weeks hold to start off with. That’s five percent a month. I will play around with it here n there though in the future. I’ll play around with how long to make the holds too. I can’t tolerate tapering at ten percent, it’s way too high for me. I’ve been doing around five percent for ages now. I’ve never microtapered though, I’ve just made the one cut n held.

 

I know what you mean when you can’t really enjoy the beach. I love the beach n nature around me but I go through phases where I am totally anhedonic and can’t feel the pleasure nature brings. I still make myself go out in nature though. When I went down the Coast a little while ago to stay with my my sister I was so numb the whole time. I still got on a tram n went to the beach but I couldn’t feel anything. It’s weird, isn’t it? I’m not like that all the time though.

 

Im sure your friend would love it if you gave her some plates to smash for her mosaics. What has she made? I love arts n crafts, I’ve never tried mosaics though, I must check it out. 

 

Don’t stop the hugging business😂. I’ve always been a hugger, every time I catch up with friends they definitely get hugged🤗.

If you’ve ever done the Myers Briggs personality test I’m an ENFP and we love to hug🤗🤗🤗.

 

Well it’s going to be a warm day here in Queensland today, 35 degrees Celsius so I’m sending some of the sunshine your way☀️

[Rosetta]

Hi, Neroli,

Thank you for looking in on me lately.  It's been difficult.  I hope you are doing all right today. -R