bunchesofoats: starting 2nd citalopram taper

[Altostrata]

I don't know much about kava. I do think it might be mildly neuroactive. I might reduce intake a bit and see if your symptom patterns change.

 

Could be that is has activation effects.

[bunchesofoats]

Day 475 - liquid citalopram taper - 10.7mg - dropping 0.05mg (about 0.5%) every 3 days

 

New system:

 

July 16 (19 days ago) I started a new tapering schedule. I began dissolving a 10mg citalopram tablet in 40mL water instead of the previous 20mL. I now decrease my dosage by 0.05mg (or 0.2mL) every 3 days, as long as I'm feeling fine. This is a rate of approximately 4.5% per month, which I've previously found to be a good level for me. With my previous method though, I had to time that one drop well so that the symptoms didn't get out of hand, and since my last drop was right before the pandemic (and some other stressors), I was afraid to drop again since then.

 

With this new schedule I don't have to worry about timing the drop. I just keep going - but I have the freedom to stay put at any time if:

1. symptoms begin to act up
2. it's more difficult during certain parts of my cycle
3. a stressful event occurs.

I give each dose 3 days to allow symptoms to show up. I also plan on hanging out at 10mg (expected mid-September) for a while to give myself a rest and will decide then how to move forward.

 

So far, this has gone very well. I noticed a few symptoms at first, and I did hang out an extra day at a dose, but now I feel like I'm in a good rhythm. I also minimize the chances of accidentally taking slightly more than my dose which seems to upset my system more. Psychologically I get to feel like I'm constantly making progress while having a safety net.

[bunchesofoats]

Vitamin D timeline:

 

Like others, I've had trouble with Vitamin D. September 2016 my therapist (before I had a psychiatrist) vehemently suggested I take 5000IU Vitamin D. Said it worked great for her and she didn't get sick anymore. I tried it and it threw me into horrible insomnia. Probably just one piece of the puzzle that led me into the mess that resulted in me starting citalopram that October.

 

2016 Sept-Oct 5000IU, stopped because seemed to worsen insomnia and depression

2016 Nov-2017 Jan 5000IU every other day, stopped again due to insomnia; upon stopping sleep improved but felt more depressed/foggy

2019 Jan -May 1000IU + 45mcg VitK-2, every other day

2019 May-Aug levels slightly low, rx for 2000IU; alternate 2000IU rx with 1000IU + 45mcg VitK-2; stopped because seemed too activating, slept much better without it

2020 Apr - started 1000IU + 45mcg VitK-2, started slowly every other day, felt like I needed it and wanted to ease my way in; only took in the morning (usually by 8 or 9am), got used to the feeling, didn't interfere with sleep

2020 Jul - stared 2000IU rx + 100mcg VitK-2

 

Summary:

 

Vitamin D has been historically too activating for me and gave me sleep issues. I slowly reintroduced it into my body since it does of course have benefits. I only take it early in the morning. I started with a low dose (1000IU) every other day, and increased slowly from there. I currently take 2000IU + 100mcg VitK-2 every day. It does give me an energized feeling, but since I went slowly, I was able to adapt to that feeling if that makes sense. That feeling now no longer gives me anxiety. I feel like adapting in this way to the Vitamin D effects also has allowed me to not have my sleep altered by it. It does give me energy and lift my mood. It's been a delicate and slow changing balance, like everything else.

[quads]

Hello bunchesofoats

I'm sorry you're having so many problems with your taper. The Brassmonkey slide method has been super smooth for me, 10% a month with 2.5% of that per week with a 2 week holding period after the 4th week. It should take 9 months to decrease dose by 1/2 but I'm at about one year on the nose from 20mg to 10mg as I took a few pauses with the holding periods when I felt symptoms rearing their head. Maybe this would be a good approach to attempt once you're at 10mg, though given your sensitivity is high 10% a month might be a bit much. I think the holding period is certainly something you should consider though as it's worked well for me and others on the forum. It's just a nice stabilizing period rather than continually marching downwards.

 

Thanks for the info on the SAD light, I hadn't thought of it since but for 60 bucks I might give it a whirl.

 

How do you find the 0.1 and 0.2ml measurements? I use a 10ml syringe for my 1ml+ withdrawals and a 1ml with 0.1ml gradients for the smaller reductions, but sort of feel like getting down to 0.1ml is potentially a little inaccurate.

 

I hope you're doing well, it's good to see you persevering even though things can be tough, you'll figure it all out eventually I'm sure of it

[bunchesofoats]

Good to see you're doing well, @quads!

 

I will hold at 10mg where I will finally have a truly consistent dose (as I take a 10mg tablet) so I can give my body a break. Then I'll slowly transfer to liquid form, then decide how to proceed from there. I imagine it will look like a lower percentage brassmonkey slide. I previously didn't do that because I wanted to line up my drops with my menstrual cycle, but that resulted in situations where I may have a drop and a life event occur right after with no going back, and then holding for too long because I would become afraid of not getting the right timing.

 

I have been trying to understand why but more importantly accept that I'm particularly sensitive. Part of the issue I think was I felt awful the entire time I was at my max dose of 30mg where I would cut a 20mg tablet in half. Those fluctuations in dosage gave me horrible symptoms at the time that I didn't connect to the medication, and my doctor kept insisting it was working and I was doing better (I wasn't). My thought is that spending 11months with fluctuating amounts of citalopram in my system sensitized me, in addition to whatever genetic factors I may have that give me more trouble with discontinuation. I imagine we'll have many more studies about that in the coming decade.

 

I use a 10mL syringe with 0.2mL gradations. I mix the solution well, pull and release a few pumps of the syringe to mix some more, then go up to the same part of the meniscus for consistency.

 

The SAD light was definitely worth it. I moved a few months ago to a place with many huge windows and my home office is now bathed in light (too much so these days in a heat wave 😅). It makes a huge difference. I now use my SAD light when I play drums which are in a darker corner of the home, and I love it.

 

All the best quads!

[ChessieCat]

8 hours ago, quads said:

How do you find the 0.1 and 0.2ml measurements? I use a 10ml syringe for my 1ml+ withdrawals and a 1ml with 0.1ml gradients for the smaller reductions, but sort of feel like getting down to 0.1ml is potentially a little inaccurate.

 

You could always dilute more.

 

[jozeff]

Hi bunchesofoats,

 

How is your taper going?

 

I hope things are working out for you!

 

Cheers

 

Jozeff

 

 

[bunchesofoats]

Hey thanks for checking in @jozeff. I'm doing reasonably well. I do have minor symptoms sometimes (like: mild disequilibrium in the middle of the night, physical anxiety/tingles, some difficulty sleeping, some fatigue) but all minimal, not long lasting, and possibly only noticeable because I'm already tuned in from when I experienced these things more severely. I did slow down a bit. I have seasonal depression this time of year. It starts end of August and hits me hard through October. I've had it for as long as I can remember (even as a young child), and haven't been able rid myself of it. So this year I'm doing my best to expect and accept it. So I will take it extra slow with my taper during this time. Overall though, I've been doing much better, have been able to enjoy much more of my life. I've made significant progress in an online coding bootcamp which has been challenging but finally I'm gaining momentum. I started strength training 3x/week with my boyfriend about a month ago and that's been a much, much needed improvement in my life. There's definitely a lot of work to be done with the body in the withdrawal process I feel. I do still get frustrated and overwhelmed at times by the enormity of this process and the unfairness of it all, but that seems to maybe just be life in general haha. I know it hasn't helped me to indulge for too long in those thoughts so I'm really trying hard to focus on what does help me.

 

Here are the actual dosage changes I've made if it helps to see:

 

 

How have you been?

[ChessieCat]

59 minutes ago, bunchesofoats said:

I have seasonal depression this time of year. It starts end of August and hits me hard through October. I've had it for as long as I can remember (even as a young child), and haven't been able rid myself of it.

 

Have you had your vitamin D levels checked?  Other measurable things checked?  You may be deficient in something.

 

Have you considered?  light-boxes-light-therapy-for-depression-and-sleep-disorders

 

[bunchesofoats]

I haven't had anything checked in a year, but I do take 2000IU Vit D/day (plus vit K). I have spoken to doctors about this, and I got a lightbox a few years ago. I moved earlier this year to a place with tons of natural light and nature which has been so fantastic. My only other theory for a physical cause is that it could be some kind of allergen present in the fall (since it isn't in the winter as typical with SAD or even in the summer as with atypical SAD). However, I've lived in a variety of locations so the allergens wouldn't be consistent while the feeling has been. It could also be the rate of change of light rather than the amount of light itself - something about the rapidly decreasing daylight being sad.

 

Or it's related to events and nostalgia I experienced in childhood that I for whatever reason haven't yet processed or understood. I did move countries in the middle of September as a child which was a huge event for me, and I found myself painfully nostalgic for certain people and places from even a very young age. When I learned the word "nostalgia" I was like, "oh, that's the name for what I've been feeling all these years." I have actually spoken over the years to a couple of therapists about this because as an adult it has absolutely perplexed me, and I have struggled to understand the source or meaning. I went to 7 different schools as a child so it may also be related to the time when kids go back to school, reminding me of missing friends and having to start all over etc. Sorry for the rambling, I've just been dealing with this for so long. And it was also because of this September depression that 4 years ago I decided to try SSRIs (which never helped). I actually felt like it was irresponsible of me not to try them. 

[ChessieCat]

It sounds like you have considered lots of possibilities for the cause of the "seasonal" depression.  Thank you for elaborating on what things you have considered.  Even though you haven't been able to know the cause for certain or been able to work out how to stop/reduce it, it's good that you have an awareness of what might be going on.  I think that there may be lots of people who do experience something similar to you.

 

Have any of the counsellors taught you any skills to help you cope with it?

[bunchesofoats]

10 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

Have any of the counsellors taught you any skills to help you cope with it?

The first counselor in short, no. She was a licensed therapist but employed many alternative techniques (like reading runes, past life regression). I felt I was open to them, but none went anywhere.

 

The second (and current) one sticks to CBT. Her advice was: since I know it happens every year, to expect it and brainstorm ways I may be able to prepare for it. This is her advice for tapering as well - I now know the symptoms, so I can plan for them.

 

I've made simple self-care guides to remind myself of what helps when I feel ungrounded. They're filled with all the usual suspects - water, sleep, good food, exercise, nature, friends. It helps me to frame them as solutions to the weird things I feel, especially when I get overwhelmed by feelings I don't understand which is what happens this time of year (and previously with tapering). I've had this mentality that if I'm feeling weird, there must be something really wrong with me, so I should run away from it while I can and definitely keep it from other people while waiting to find the magical solution. Shockingly this has not worked in my favor. So, while I still don't have a grasp on why I have this strong "September sadness," I am now willing to look at it head on, study it, and even find beauty in it (which was always there). And I understand that in order to be functional I'll have to put more attention to self-care activities, and in particular to ritual. Ritual helps all the time, and especially while dealing with withdrawal, but in this season it's even more crucial. So I really try to stick to wake up and sleep times, get as much daylight as possible, be mindful of what and when I eat, etc. I've come to accept that I'm someone who needs a lot of stability to do my best in the long run (although this doesn't mesh well with the way we work, at least here in the US).

 

There was an article on banyan botanicals, not sure if it was necessarily the one I linked, that helped me understand the impact seasonal transitions have on people. During this season in Los Angeles, daylight decreases by more than two minutes each day. That's a quarter of an hour of daylight we're losing each week. In many areas (n. hemi.) the weather gets cooler and drier. It makes sense that environmental changes would impact us. So that's likely at least one piece of the puzzle for me.

[jozeff]

Hi bunchesofoats,

 

How are you doing?

Are you doing allright with your taper?

 

Hope things go well for you :,-😉

 

Cheers jozeff

 

 

[bunchesofoats]

Day 536 - liquid citalopram taper - 10.3mg

 

Hey @jozeff, I'm doing just fine. Going very very slowly as planned. A couple weeks back I had a very weird experience where for several days, 30min after I would take my medication (I take it at 8:30pm in the evening) I had brief vertigo. It wasn't continuous and since I experienced horrible vertigo when I was "steadily" at 30mg this was nothing in comparison. But I found it really odd that it happened with regularity 30 minutes after taking the dose.

 

The past few days I've had a slight cold. I am getting tested for COVID this week just in case, but it seems like a regular cold and I'm already feeling better. I treated it with an onslaught of zinc and vitamins d and c (all at different times). Lots of water and tea with buckwheat honey as well. I have a mild cough at times but that may be from the wildfire smoke. Our air quality has been the worst I've ever experienced in this country (aqi over 200 yesterday).

 

I've had to be very mindful of what I take to treat the cold so that I don't have any weird reactions with citalopram given my unusually high sensitivity. It was also frustrating to experience vertigo again. I want to get this medication out of my life.

 

How healthy do I need to be? This is a question that has been going through my head. If I adopt a paleo diet, or some other diet, or follow some other specific protocol, will I be able to shorten the time that I have to have this drug running through my body?

[jozeff]

Hi bunchesofoats!

 

Good to hear your doing relatively ok.

I'm at 10.55 mg citalopram right now. I make 1.25% cuts every 7days. Don't ask me why but that's what I came up with after two years of trying a lot of methods.

 

I also wonder if a special diet would make it all a lot easier. No carbs for instance..I don't know. I've two kids and a wife so taking no carbs is hard because we make meals for the 4 of us.

 

Have you tried a diet before?

 

Cheers

Jozeff

[bunchesofoats]

6 hours ago, jozeff said:

I make 1.25% cuts every 7days. Don't ask me why but that's what I came up with after two years of trying a lot of methods.

 

I find myself doing very similar things and also wondering how I got there but knowing that it was incremental and as a result of experience.

 

6 hours ago, jozeff said:

Have you tried a diet before?

 

I have, though not recently. Several years back I cut out gluten for 3-4 months. I started eating it again for the holidays and it was too hard to cut out again! I had some bizarre reactions at first which led to me learning that gluten binds as an opiate. Cutting out gluten apparently is like going through opiate withdrawal! After a few weeks I was used to it. It was hard of course to find eating options in certain situations and to say no to things I was used to enjoying. I don't remember feeling much of a difference though, aside from the initially difficult few weeks (I don't remember the specific symptoms. I'm sure I have them written somewhere...)

 

I've tried keto and very low carb before, but they stress out my body too much. I've never made it past the "keto flu" because I just couldn't get to sleep at all. I felt my adrenaline pumping. I think my body just isn't meant for low carb.

 

I've been vegetarian for a few weeks at a time here or there while in certain countries and/or on meditation retreats. I find I'm ravenously hungry on those diets. Not enough protein and too many carbs for me I think.

 

I've entertained the idea of the whole 30 and other elimination diets to get more information about myself, but it has always seemed too stressful to undergo, especially when I feel like I already struggle so much to maintain stability. Of course, there is the possibility that an answer is waiting for me in that experience.

 

I've read that Dr. Kelly Brogan has her SSRI withdrawal patients adopt a paleo diet, which I know has helped some people with anxiety. I've eaten paleo-ish before but never did it seriously (though eating gluten free brought me in that direction).

[jozeff]

Thanks for your story,

 

Ok, so diet is not for everyone I guess. I've been thinking about cutting carbs but I don't know if that is truly healthy. I mean, people have been eating oats, grains for thousands of years. It is of course true that ancient people are way less carbs than we do but the ate carbs for sure.

I try to eat a shake with kale, berries, oats, spices, olive oil, pees, and cottage cheese 4 or 5 times a week. 2 apples a day, some carrots, peanut butter and normal dinner. Plenty of water and a few cups of coffee. That should be healthy enough compared to a lot of people I think.

 

I cut out diet coke completely.

 

Do you sometimes wonder if it is wd or just us getting older, more worried?

 

I mean, our taper is so slow. It really shouldn't cause that many problems. 1% per week is very slow for a lot of biological processes. That is about 25 times as slow as my doctor recommended. What if I'd listened to him. Would we be drug free and happy or would we be bed ridden for years?

 

I hope you are doing just fine and keep continuing what's best for you ☺️.

 

 

Cheers

 

Jozeff

 

 

 

 

[bunchesofoats]

current dose: 10.35mg

 

I've been meaning to update for a while but haven't had it in me.

 

I just had my quarterly 15 minute psychiatrist appointment.

 

It’s really hard repeatedly hearing my doctor tell me that my symptoms would be the same whether I drop my dosage by a large amount or a small amount. She refuses to educate herself and continues to give me this dangerous information as well as completely invalidate me. I try really hard to be nice and tactful, but why. She's making a quarter of a million dollars doing nothing useful and harming people. I'm trying so hard not to see it this way, but after years on this path, it's hard not to.

 

I bring up all sorts of other possibilities but have gotten absolutely no meaningful information from her. I've been looking into the doctors listed on this site for a while, but I have a hard time being optimistic enough to spend the little money and hope I have on them.

 

I'm doing ok in general. Many days even doing some impressive things. But not while significantly reducing my dosage, only whilst being stable. So I have to keep going very, very slow, and being very careful with many aspects of my life such that nothing falls too far out of balance because the consequences seem exponential.

 

My psychiatrist's only advice is that whether I drop by minuscule amounts or by half, the amount of time spent in withdrawal would be the same, so I should just go for the plunge and use the lorazepam to get me through. Am I crazy to think I need more balance than this?

 

I've recently been finally building my life up again, making connections, having interviews in a competitive new field, etc. And much of the world is living in a panic this year. Can I really handle something like dropping dose and living on lorazepam? Why does she insist upon it?

 

My therapist said with respect to my troubles with medication I'm essentially disabled. Is this true? What does that mean?

 

I have no safety net. I don't have options if I can't take care of myself for an extended period of time. That's not to say I don't have any support, because I wouldn't have even gotten this far if I didn't. But I'm not in a situation where I can be incapacitated for long periods of time. A day or two, fine. But not more than that.

 

I do long for at least getting to 10mg so I can be on a truly steady dose. Maybe I can take the plunge to there and eat up the loraz to help me. And then hopefully I can somehow magically release the loraz as well without any negative symptoms. And then maybe being at a steady 10mg for a while will give my body enough of a break that it will then be able to handle a bigger plunge while I also continue to improve other aspects of my life. I just have no idea sometimes. But in general, I proceed with caution.

[bunchesofoats]

Still at 10.35mg. Haven't changed dosage as I've been dealing with stressors that have come up. I've gotten much better at managing stress as well as managing my energy, but still, I have my limits.

 

This past Thursday (2 days ago) I started feeling a bit sick. I've been going to the hospital most weeks for the past couple of months for various appointments. I'm careful when I go, and it's the only place I go, but I was worried I'd caught something anyway. I've been taking care of myself, but what's strange is that I suddenly have a surge of withdrawal symptoms. Thursday night the vertigo started again, and it's been quite bad, much worse than it's been in months, especially considering I haven't changed the dosage. I've also been having body rushes, another tell-tale symptom for me. I've also got what I call "stuffiness" in my head which I think others have referred to as cotton in the brain.

 

I don't understand what's causing this. Of course I've thought of the many possibilities, like the increased stress somehow messed with my system, but how to this extent? I've been taking cold-eeze and umcka in case I caught a cold/covid, but why would those lead to WD? I have some turmeric everyday, did I have too much this week? Do I have inflammation resulting from a virus? I can't think of anything particularly out of the ordinary that I ate.

 

As a result of the increase in stress the past two months, I've started taking lorazepam again. I've taken a total of 7.25 * 0.5mg in the last two months. The last time I had such bad symptoms was when I was dropping by small amounts and then caught a cold at the beginning of October. I haven't dropped my dosage since.

 

I try to take my medication at the same time every night, but Thursday night I did take it 45min later than I meant. This has happened before, but maybe I just couldn't handle it this week because of the stress and a lack of sleep the previous night?

[bunchesofoats]

My current hypothesis is that the zinc from the coldeeze is causing my adverse symptoms.

 

Some studies on the effects of zinc in the brain:

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12035-017-0536-0

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/jnr.20421

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphar.2017.00414/full

 

I have to have surgery in a few months, and I'm wondering if I should do anything special to prepare myself for any potential adverse interactions with anesthesia. I asked the doctors, but considering that not a single medical practitioner I've spoken to through this entire period has been familiar with ADWD, I don't trust that they really know.

[bunchesofoats]

I stopped taking coldeeze or even the zinc picolinate I usually take daily over the weekend. It's been 4 days and my WD symptoms have not subsided. I'm realizing this exactly what happened in October when I thought I had a cold where I was surprised by the lingering and intensity of my symptoms. The dizziness is horrible, having to hold on to walls when I get up in the middle of the night, I have twitching in my legs, especially the left, and I have tingles all over. I'm also feeling run down and my appetite has been suppressed. I've made peace with not being able to do anything other than live a very routine, healthy lifestyle, and now to be thrown off by zinc is really bumming me out.

 

I read this in another post:

  

On 3/10/2018 at 2:50 PM, ChessieCat said:

I wrote this in response to a member asking how long I had a symptom for:

 

"Because I know about WD symptoms I don't make a big deal about them.  I just accept a symptom for what it is and it's usually when a symptom happens again or a member mentions something that I realise that a particular symptom hasn't happened for a while.

 

It was only this morning when my feet felt a bit crampy that I realised that the plantar fascia had gone.

 

I think it's just that I learn to live with something so it isn't forefront in my mind."

 

For me, I had horrible symptoms long before I knew what they were, well over a year. While I've known about WD, I've still been surprised by how many things have popped up that ended up being connected. My vision for the first time in my life is declining (and only in my left eye) and I'm starting to wonder if that's connected to the SSRI as well. So for me, knowing the WD effects actually helped me see them for they are and distance myself a bit from them rather than continue wondering what the heck is wrong with me that I am constantly experiencing so many different and bizarre symptoms. I handle them much better now, but new surprises still come up, and even without surprises this is hard to deal with.

 

I've been doing a great job keeping up with a regular schedule, getting myself to do at least a little bit of all the things I know help (meditate, yoga, walk, wake and sleep regularly, eat sensibly, challenge myself intellectually, connect with others, etc). It has helped tremendously to commit to this kind of regularity and making it more structured and habitual has given me support when my feelings have thrown me around. Of course this website and other resources (like the Mad in America series which I'm about to attend again in 10min) have also been invaluable for helping me doubt myself less, providing insight into what's going on, and knowing (somewhat unfortunately) that many others have experienced the exact same set of bizarre feelings.

[Sonia009]

On 2/11/2021 at 5:53 PM, bunchesofoats said:

I stopped taking coldeeze or even the zinc picolinate I usually take daily over the weekend. It's been 4 days and my WD symptoms have not subsided. I'm realizing this exactly what happened in October when I thought I had a cold where I was surprised by the lingering and intensity of my symptoms. The dizziness is horrible, having to hold on to walls when I get up in the middle of the night, I have twitching in my legs, especially the left, and I have tingles all over. I'm also feeling run down and my appetite has been suppressed. I've made peace with not being able to do anything other than live a very routine, healthy lifestyle, and now to be thrown off by zinc is really bumming me out.

 

I read this in another post:

  

 

For me, I had horrible symptoms long before I knew what they were, well over a year. While I've known about WD, I've still been surprised by how many things have popped up that ended up being connected. My vision for the first time in my life is declining (and only in my left eye) and I'm starting to wonder if that's connected to the SSRI as well. So for me, knowing the WD effects actually helped me see them for they are and distance myself a bit from them rather than continue wondering what the heck is wrong with me that I am constantly experiencing so many different and bizarre symptoms. I handle them much better now, but new surprises still come up, and even without surprises this is hard to deal with.

 

I've been doing a great job keeping up with a regular schedule, getting myself to do at least a little bit of all the things I know help (meditate, yoga, walk, wake and sleep regularly, eat sensibly, challenge myself intellectually, connect with others, etc). It has helped tremendously to commit to this kind of regularity and making it more structured and habitual has given me support when my feelings have thrown me around. Of course this website and other resources (like the Mad in America series which I'm about to attend again in 10min) have also been invaluable for helping me doubt myself less, providing insight into what's going on, and knowing (somewhat unfortunately) that many others have experienced the exact same set of bizarre feelings.

Hello bunchesofoats,

I too am diluting Citalopram with water and using a syringe to draw out my 5.25mg dose., it's been almost two weeks now. I was hoping I'd see a difference by now but am still getting dizzy feelings and muzzy head feelings. Like you, my eyesight has also been affected.  I picked up on one of your posts where you said that dissolving citalopram in water resulted in a drop in effectiveness of the drug. It was a discussion you had with hardtimes. I wonder if this is why I am still feeling these symptoms. Would you pleased be kind enough to explain this to me or where you read it. That could explain my symptoms. I hope we both get some relief soon.  Thank you.

[bunchesofoats]

Hi @Sonia001, the issue with dissolving the medication is only a problem when first switching from tablet to liquid. For example, when changing from taking 10mg to liquid, the first step in the transition should be taking the entire 10mg tablet dissolved in liquid. This is because the effective metabolism of the drug has decreased.

 

How were you taking in-between dosages before, for example when you were taking 7.5mg and then 5.25mg? Were you using a scale to measure the weight of a cut tablet?

 

 

My update:

I am finally coming up from this last awful, perplexing wave. It's been nearly two weeks. I had some of the worst vertigo and body sensations I've experienced, and I hadn't even changed my dose. I still am thinking it was the cold-eeze. For years, before I knew the vertigo was caused by the citalopram, I noticed a correlation with symptoms following an upper respiratory infection. The led me to believe the vertigo was a result of labyrinthitis. Now I'm thinking it was because I would always take zinc during a cold, and the vertigo swiftly followed. When I was on a steady 20mg tablet dose I never experienced vertigo. That's what tipped me off that the dizziness was a result of the drug.

 

I've pretty completely fallen off of all my good habits. I managed to keep up with my part-time work and some other stuff, certainly better than I was doing a couple years back, but man it's frustrating to feel like I just can't really keep myself afloat for long before getting knocked down again. Upon reading some of my journal entries from early on in my citalopram usage along with some posts here, I wonder if I may have had what I've seen others call an "adverse" reaction to the drug to begin with. I would think that it would've been more obvious if that had been the case, but then again I repeatedly told my psychiatrist how awful I was feeling and she just kept saying I was doing better and would send me off bathing in lorazepam.

 

It's been very hard to do anything the past two weeks other than the absolute most essential. The most basic of tasks seemed so out of reach. Coming out of it now, I can see it all more clearly, and while I have a wave a relief that I no longer feel so terrible, there's a pit in my stomach when I see how far removed I was from feeling stable and being reasonably productive.

 

I'm baffled by my experience. I'm going so slowly, I'm trying to do all the right things, but clearly I'm still missing something big.

[Sonia009]

14 hours ago, bunchesofoats said:

Hi @Sonia001, the issue with dissolving the medication is only a problem when first switching from tablet to liquid. For example, when changing from taking 10mg to liquid, the first step in the transition should be taking the entire 10mg tablet dissolved in liquid. This is because the effective metabolism of the drug has decreased.

 

How were you taking in-between dosages before, for example when you were taking 7.5mg and then 5.25mg? Were you using a scale to measure the weight of a cut tablet?

 

Hi @bunchesofoats,

Thank you for replying to my question. I apologise for contacting you when you were in a bad wave, I hope you are coming out of it now.

I was using a pill cutter to get 7.5mg and 5.25mg initially but realised the doses were not accurate enough. I then started weighing my 5.25 mg dose but problems arose with different brands and their different weights. I took advise here from ChessieCat re dissolving in water. I dissolve a 10mg tablet in 10mls of water and draw up 5.25mls. It's been two weeks now and am still getting dizzy sensations,  not room spinning, more like a migraine aura feeling. I am feel I better than I was when I started diluting, maybe I'm still adjusting to this new method and as you say, metabolism of the drug. Also, I've recently finished a course of antibiotics for a gum infection, another side effect of citalopram causing receding gums. My symptoms are similar to yours and that's very reassuring.

I hope we all find all the right answers soon.🌝

14 hours ago, bunchesofoats said:

 

My update:

I am finally coming up from this last awful, perplexing wave. It's been nearly two weeks. I had some of the worst vertigo and body sensations I've experienced, and I hadn't even changed my dose. I still am thinking it was the cold-eeze. For years, before I knew the vertigo was caused by the citalopram, I noticed a correlation with symptoms following an upper respiratory infection. The led me to believe the vertigo was a result of labyrinthitis. Now I'm thinking it was because I would always take zinc during a cold, and the vertigo swiftly followed. When I was on a steady 20mg tablet dose I never experienced vertigo. That's what tipped me off that the dizziness was a result of the drug.

 

I've pretty completely fallen off of all my good habits. I managed to keep up with my part-time work and some other stuff, certainly better than I was doing a couple years back, but man it's frustrating to feel like I just can't really keep myself afloat for long before getting knocked down again. Upon reading some of my journal entries from early on in my citalopram usage along with some posts here, I wonder if I may have had what I've seen others call an "adverse" reaction to the drug to begin with. I would think that it would've been more obvious if that had been the case, but then again I repeatedly told my psychiatrist how awful I was feeling and she just kept saying I was doing better and would send me off bathing in lorazepam.

 

It's been very hard to do anything the past two weeks other than the absolute most essential. The most basic of tasks seemed so out of reach. Coming out of it now, I can see it all more clearly, and while I have a wave a relief that I no longer feel so terrible, there's a pit in my stomach when I see how far removed I was from feeling stable and being reasonably productive.

 

I'm baffled by my experience. I'm going so slowly, I'm trying to do all the right things, but clearly I'm still missing something big.

 

[bunchesofoats]

Hey @Sonia001, since you've already been on the new dose two weeks, and your symptoms are subsiding, I wouldn't change anything at this point.

 

I used to cut my tablets before dissolving them and I think the inconsistency is part of what made my journey so difficult. That previous inconsistency combined with your switch to liquid is likely what gave rise to your current symptoms, but you can now just hold at your current dosage until the symptoms decrease.

 

I think I know what you mean by the not quite spinning aura-like feeling. I often have the same feeling even when I haven't changed dosages. I can tell that I could feel really dizzy, but it luckily doesn't quite get all the way there during those times.

 

Wishing you the best and will check back in with you soon.

[bunchesofoats]

Today was the first day I was able to get up and feel kind of "normal" after this wave. Last night was the first night in two weeks that the room didn't spin wildly every time I turned over.

 

I committed to getting back to my morning routine today which includes reading Alan Watts' "The Way of Zen." In a passage about Japanese terms with no comprehensive English translation, there is a line that says: When the moment evokes a more intense, nostalgic sadness, connected with autumn and the vanishing away of the world, it is called aware.

 

I include this here because there has been discussion about my and others symptoms worsening in the fall, and because I made the fateful decision to turn to SSRIs in the fall when submerged in this feeling. I had a funny, bizarre thought of a Zen monk experiencing aware and thinking, "What I probably need is some citalopram."

[Sonia009]

Hi bunchesofoats,

Good to hear you've had a good day, I hope many more will follow.

Interesting quote and quite appropriate in the present climate when we are all facing an unprecedented present and future. We have all had more time to reflect on our lives which inevitably invites all sorts of emotions both past and present. The Zen Philiosophy is something we can all take note from, particularly now in lockdown, not so possible though when life returns to normal (if it ever will), when we re-join the rat race.

8 hours ago, bunchesofoats said:

Today was the first day I was able to get up and feel kind of "normal" after this wave. Last night was the first night in two weeks that the room didn't spin wildly every time I turned over.

 

I committed to getting back to my morning routine today which includes reading Alan Watts' "The Way of Zen." In a passage about Japanese terms with no comprehensive English translation, there is a line that says: When the moment evokes a more intense, nostalgic sadness, connected with autumn and the vanishing away of the world, it is called aware.

 

I include this here because there has been discussion about my and others symptoms worsening in the fall, and because I made the fateful decision to turn to SSRIs in the fall when submerged in this feeling. I had a funny, bizarre thought of a Zen monk experiencing aware and thinking, "What I probably need is some citalopram." 

that's so funny😂

 

Picked up on what you said about last night being the first in a while when you didn't get a vertigo type feeling whilst turning over (I presume you mean in bed). I get that too, but not room spinning, just a weird giddy feeling.

Had a better day today, hoping for another tomorrow.

Take care😊

 

[bunchesofoats]

Glad you're feeling better @Sonia001! Yes I did mean turning over in bed. The feeling is absolutely nuts. If you ever spun yourself around a bunch as a kid or went on one of those spinning things at the park that now they don't let kids play on, it's exactly the same feeling that you get after that. Except it comes from any mild head movement. It's bonkers.

 

I'm wondering if anyone has any great strategies for "getting back on track" after a wave. I'd worked so hard on setting up some good habits for myself, and after getting knocked down, having sleep and focus and energy so disrupted, it's seems like a far away land sometimes to get back to it. I know it's up to me and my will, but my attention span completely disappears at times and I get fatigued easily. But I know if I can get back to doing the things that help me, I'll have a chance to feel much better.

 

I've also been realizing that my current tapering goal is just to get to 10mg. Initially I had planned on holding at 10mg for 2 months, then a year, now I'm thinking several years, possibly the rest of my life. I've lost many years of life progress to this medication right from the very start. I wish my doctor had recognized immediately that I wasn't responding well to it so in that first year when I had constant symptoms I could've just come off of it then instead of being here 4 years later. I'm finally managing to pick myself back up. If I have to stay on 10mg at this point to have a life, so be it. I'm not ready to accept being medically disabled, as two professionals have now described my case. That just doesn't seem set in stone yet for me, and it's certainly not what I want.

[Sonia009]

53 minutes ago, bunchesofoats said:

Glad you're feeling better @Sonia001! Yes I did mean turning over in bed. The feeling is absolutely nuts. If you ever spun yourself around a bunch as a kid or went on one of those spinning things at the park that now they don't let kids play on, it's exactly the same feeling that you get after that. Except it comes from any mild head movement. It's bonkers.

 

HI,

Not so good today, dizzy feeling back on getting up, made a slight dose reduction last night and I didn't let my tablet dissolve for so long, maybe an hour less, whether that makes a difference I don't know.

My giddy feeling isn't as bad as what you describe, puts me off balance for a bit like I want to pass out but never do, but like you, affected by the slightest head movement. It's such a relief to find someone with a similar symptom although I'm sorry you have it too.

I've mentioned it to a rheumatologist and ENT specialist before about feeling giddy turning over in bed. They both said it was probably neck arthritis affecting the nerves in my neck, from working at a computer all day, forward head posture. They offered no remedy for it nor for my tinitus. I even had an electrocardiogram and that was ok. I didn't know about withdrawal at that time and I was messing around with my dose back then too.

53 minutes ago, bunchesofoats said:

I'm wondering if anyone has any great strategies for "getting back on track" after a wave. I'd worked so hard on setting up some good habits for myself, and after getting knocked down, having sleep and focus and energy so disrupted, it's seems like a far away land sometimes to get back to it. I know it's up to me and my will, but my attention span completely disappears at times and I get fatigued easily. But I know if I can get back to doing the things that help me, I'll have a chance to feel much better.

 

I've also been realizing that my current tapering goal is just to get to 10mg. Initially I had planned on holding at 10mg for 2 months, then a year, now I'm thinking several years, possibly the rest of my life. I've lost many years of life progress to this medication right from the very start. I wish my doctor had recognized immediately that I wasn't responding well to it so in that first year when I had constant symptoms I could've just come off of it then instead of being here 4 years later. I'm finally managing to pick myself back up. If I have to stay on 10mg at this point to have a life, so be it. I'm not ready to accept being medically disabled, as two professionals have now described my case. That just doesn't seem set in stone yet for me, and it's certainly not what I want.

I wish I had answers for you, hopefully you will get some good advice from others here.Perhaps someone could recommend a book. I have one on my Amazon fire called - Break Free, a Path Through Antidepressant Withdrawal by Rebecca Jones ND, BSc. You may be able to take a "look inside" on Amazon to see if it will help before downloading it. I found it helpful somewhat but I find these books don't quite go deep enough for me though, I'm looking for more answers.

Going back on my usual dose tonight. Wishing you a good night and better day tomorrow.😊

[Sonia009]

8 hours ago, Sonia001 said:

 

HI,

Not so good today, dizzy feeling back on getting up, made a slight dose reduction last night and I didn't let my tablet dissolve for so long, maybe an hour less, whether that makes a difference I don't know.

My giddy feeling isn't as bad as what you describe, puts me off balance for a bit like I want to pass out but never do, but like you, affected by the slightest head movement. It's such a relief to find someone with a similar symptom although I'm sorry you have it too.

I've mentioned it to a rheumatologist and ENT specialist before about feeling giddy turning over in bed. They both said it was probably neck arthritis affecting the nerves in my neck, from working at a computer all day, forward head posture. They offered no remedy for it nor for my tinitus. I even had an electrocardiogram and that was ok. I didn't know about withdrawal at that time and I was messing around with my dose back then too.

I wish I had answers for you, hopefully you will get some good advice from others here.Perhaps someone could recommend a book. I have one on my Amazon fire called - Break Free, a Path Through Antidepressant Withdrawal by Rebecca Jones ND, BSc. You may be able to take a "look inside" on Amazon to see if it will help before downloading it. I found it helpful somewhat but I find these books don't quite go deep enough for me though, I'm looking for more answers.

Going back on my usual dose tonight. Wishing you a good night and better day tomorrow.😊

Another book I have is by Joseph Glenmullen M.D., The Antidepressant Solution. Although these books offer some good advice, their recommended tapering programmes seem much too fast after reading testimonials here.

[bunchesofoats]

Thanks for the book recommendations @Sonia001. I have read some of Glenmullen's book and already knew I needed to go much slower. I did use his checklist of symptoms to make my own symptom tracker that I've now been using for 1.5years (though I'm getting tired of it if I'm honest). I'm looking through the other book and may download it as it's only a few dollars. I'm still open to any information I can get!

 

The severe symptoms of this last bizarre wave have subsided but I'm left with a near constant and very distracting paresthesia. Still have mild vertigo if I tilt my head too much to look up at a sign. I also started to have near constant buzzing in my lower legs, particularly the left calf.

 

I've been watching a lot of "Survivor" and thinking how I'd crumble without this medication. I'd really like to get off. Someone I know keeps suggesting a medically induced coma (a la Jordan Peterson's benzo addiction). I would probably do it if I thought it was possible. It doesn't seem like these receptors work in the same way.

 

I can tell I'm a different person, constantly dealing with physical symptoms and much less sharp in the mind. Just bouncing between trying to manage oversensitivity/anxiety and dullness/lack of focus. I keep pressing on, but man I hope there's some kind of breakthrough at some point.

[Sonia009]

Hi again,

Glad to hear you're out of your wave, hope you have a good long window! 🙏 

I get paresthesia I think, burning legs when I'm in bed, I keep kicking the duvet off, can't bear the duvet touching them, happens every night. Most nights I feel a dizzy sensation laying down but this isn't as bad as it once was. I find using three pillows helps me, I prefer to keep my head raised. I find this better when I have a migraine too. Not good for the back though. 

I know what you mean about dealing with symptoms all of the time, with me they change almost as if they come in phases. I am quick to lose interest in things that used to interest me too. I used to love doing crossword puzzles, I subscribe to a monthly magazine, I have several unopened ones and I used to get through one in a couple of days. Even talking to my husband can be challenging at times although I try hard not to show it.

I haven't watched Survivor, not sure if we have that here in the UK, could be wrong.

I do look in on the lovely grind videos on youtube and I find them very reassuring. Michael Priebe has been through withdrawal and I can identify with many of the symptoms and emotions he shares. Worth a look if you haven't already. I believe he used to be a member of SA.

There has to be a way out of this, reading testimonials gives me hope, even if it takes longer than I would like. We just have to believe that it will happen one day. Staying positive is not easy, it's a huge challenge, but we have to have faith. Sorry, going on a bit.

Hope we all find relief very soon.

Will speak soon. Take care 😊

[bunchesofoats]

It's now been a little over 2 years since I started the liquid taper from 20mg. I absolutely cannot believe it's taken this long. I am almost at 10mg. This has been a horrible experience - the things I've felt, the stunting of my life, and the lack of acknowledgement or competence from the medical field.

 

I am now going super duper slow. Going down by 0.025mg whenever I've been not having symptoms for at least a week, which overall happens about every two weeks. I don't keep exact track anymore. I didn't want to give so much of my bandwidth to this process anymore. I'm going down by around 0.6%/month. This is the rate I've found to be ok for me. I haven't found any way to fight it or make it faster or I would. Overall, this is the rate that allows me the best quality of life. Luckily I don't have a medical need to get off any faster at this point. I, of course, am hoping that I can improve my life situation and health by not dealing with symptoms so much and then get to a point where I can perhaps go faster because the rest of my life is in better balance.

 

I'm currently at 10.15mg. At the rate I'm going, I expect to reach 10mg in two months. That's nearly two full years after I'd originally ~planned~ on reaching 10mg based on an already conservative taper. I may hang out at 10mg for a while so I can take a break from the syringe.

[jozeff]

Hi bunches,

 

How Is it going? I Know It's very frustrating to go this slow. It's  absolutely  not certain that you have to do this for the upcoming years. You may go faster after a while, I experienced this also.

 

You are at 33 % of the citalopram you once used to take! That is quite amazing isn't it?

 

I was doing a 1% per month taper at one point but I decided to try 5 % or even 7% and I felt just as bad. Not really  big difference.

 

I know it sounds strange but I think we all suffer some kind of placebo effect. 0.6 % per month is slow and I think you can go faster at some point. Realistically you would be tapering for decades to come and I think you will be able to speed up things when you feel ready.

 

I think you are still having symptoms from jumping from 30 to 20 or 17.5 mg....I had the exact same thing a year before you did. I suffered a lot but managed to taper a little faster when time went by.

 

I really have hope for you. Look how far you've come!

 

Cheers

 

Jozeff

 

[bunchesofoats]

Hi @jozeff, thanks for thinking of me and writing.

 

I've often wondered if it's just as bad going fast and slow, but it is worse for me going fast. I don't know if it's proportionally bad. But at this point, with how my life is, I don't want to take a big risk. You also may be right that I'm still having symptoms from those previous drops you mentioned. I think that I had trouble even while on a "steady" dose of 30mg because it wasn't really steady since I was breaking a 20mg tablet in half and I had terrible side effects during the whole time I was at 30mg (didn't know they were from the medication). I think some of my extreme sensitivity to dosage decreases has come from that time I spent at 30mg experiencing significant side effects.

 

I did however make it to 10mg. Last weekend I just said you know what, I'm tired of the syringe, I just want to take a tablet. So I went from ~10.15mg to just a 10mg tablet. I have been having symptoms ever since, but I have managed. I took lorazepam a few early mornings to help with the intense insomnia and terror sensations but I don't want to put too much of that in my body. I took benadryl another night. I've been managing mostly ok, but yesterday, after exercising in the morning, I couldn't do almost anything else with myself the rest of the day. I felt awful and exhausted. Today I've had some moments of vertigo for the first time in a while. I know my body is going through the process, and it's uncomfortable, but I know I will get a chance to stabilize at 10mg since it will be a truly steady dose.

 

What I'll do once I stabilize at 10mg, I have no idea. I may stay on for a year, I may stay on for my whole life, I may take another 10 years to come off, or perhaps I find that once other parts of life have improved I can drop at a faster rate. I really don't know. It's hard to live with this, but I know the only real problem is giving up.

 

You're right that I am at 33% of my max dose, so I've definitely come a long way. It took 4 months to go from 30mg to 20mg and a little over 2 years to drop from 20mg to 10mg. Of course from 20 to 10 I moved twice, experienced job changes and family deaths, and also there was that pesky pandemic.

 

I'm speaking with a clinical psychologist tomorrow, and I'm curious if he'll have any insight into this situation. I know I should seek other help because my psychiatrist has done nothing but gaslight me which has made this experience so much worse that it already is.

 

I'm so glad to see you've been able to continue moving forward! Looks like you're making excellent progress. I'll check in on your page as well.

[Hopepersists]

Hi @bunchesofoats I just recently started titrating down my Celexa after apparently doing it wrong earlier this year.  It looks like I will be at a 5% taper per month as well for now (like you once were).   It’s frustrating to go so slowly but I try to remind myself that my brain is healing at the same time I’m doing these reductions and that that process is what’s really taking longer.  
 

for what it’s worth, I’ve been trying to do things to help calm my nervous system overall including daily meditation and weekly acupuncture.  
 

I’m going to talk to my doctor about potentially trying neuro feedback to help heal my brain even more as I’ve seen SA members mention that it helps them.  

 

I know that I haven’t been doing this as long as you have but just wanted to give some words of support and let you know that you’re not alone in your slow path.

 

While not titration related, a few years ago I had post-viral Gastroparesis and had to rebuild my gut.  It took me over a year before I could eat an apple and not have it be too difficult to digest. So I feel you on trying to remain patient for these things to change.