Dave1: Kindled CNS, need help pls

[Dave1]

@Cathy4 @Guilietta

 

Grateful for your kindness. I am trying not to freak out, it’s just my body is in such rough shape/ it’s constant fight or flight mode, it’s very very intense. I have lamictal, so I’m considering a low dose or maybe seeing a new doctor. I also thought about gabapentin to help calm my nerves. Something needs to change ASAP.   

[Altostrata]

Hello, Dave. What were the last dosages you tried of a benzo and of Nardil?

 

Do you have 15mg tablets of Nardil? Are your tablets extended-release?

 

FYI https://www.chemicalbook.com/ProductChemicalPropertiesCB1719066_EN.htm

Quote

Freely soluble in water; practically insoluble in ethanol (96%) and in ether .

 

[Dave1]

12 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Hello, Dave. What were the last dosages you tried of a benzo and of Nardil?

 

Do you have 15mg tablets of Nardil? Are your tablets extended-release?

They are just regular Nardil tablets. In January I tried Xanax .5 as well as Xanax XR and clonapin, each time I had an adverse reaction and within 24 hours was horrifically sick and set back into acute withdrawal: deliriums, akisthesia, burning skin feeling, hallucinating etc. The only thing that relieved the kindled withdrawal was more benzos so it was a nightmare to get out of this cycle. Surprised I’m alive tbh.  I tried gabapentin and clonadine in the mix of this disaster in January too and seem to tolerate them okay, or at least didn’t notice an adverse reaction. 
 

A recent doctor gave me lamictal to try, but I’ve been too nervous. I thoroughly read your thread on this topic and advice to start at 5mg max for males etc. 

 

I just need to calm down and feel so agitated and on edge it’s hard to function. Im not in acute withdrawal like I was in January, but things are not good. I’m desperate and just want my life back. I did sleep last night for the first time for 5/6 hours so progress there.

[Altostrata]

What were the drugs you've taken in the last 10 days, with their dosages?

[Dave1]

I took geodon 40mg 2/13 to try and sleep. I slept a few more hours than normal, but woke up agitated and anxious, and pressure behind my eyes. 

I’ve tried cyproheptadine 4mg this past weekend (3 or 4 tablets over weekend); it did help a little but caused intense hunger spikes. 
 

I tried magnesium 2/18 which seem to help a little. 

 

I haven’t taken anything since then. 
 

Clearly I’ve been using my system like a garbage disposal, which is probably continuing my misery. I just need some relief. And it’s hard to be non functioning day after day, hour after hour. There’s also a lot of pressure on me to feel better and perform (work and life stuff) so that’s been ramping up my anxiety and panic I think. 
 

Thank you for all that you do and your help. 

[Giulietta]

2 hours ago, Dave1 said:

Grateful for your kindness. I am trying not to freak out, it’s just my body is in such rough shape/ it’s constant fight or flight mode, it’s very very intense.

 

Hi Dave.

 

I  know it's a frightening situation  and not knowing what to do to improve your situation, who to trust, etc. Help is on the way. 😉 

 

2 hours ago, Dave1 said:

I just need to calm down and feel so agitated and on edge

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Dave1 said:

I’m desperate and just want my life back. I did sleep last night for the first time for 5/6 hours so progress there.

 

This is great news that you had a good night of sleep. Sleep is one of the, if not the, important thing for your brain to heal. Mine has improved and some nights are better than others. Do you meditate - or practice some form of it? What kinds of things do you at night to help you relax and put you in a 'sleep' mode? 

 

Hang in there.

 

G.

 

[Dave1]

28 minutes ago, Guilietta said:

Do you meditate - or practice some form of it? What kinds of things do you at night to help you relax and put you in a 'sleep' mode? 

Honestly life has been brutal so it’s been hard for me to focus on anything right now. My relationship fell apart and suddenly my housing situation is in flux, so it’s like suddenly I have no foundation (this has all happened in the past 2 weeks). I still work luckily so have income but the other pieces, are, well, in pieces. I’m home with my family now, which should offer me comfort, but seems to create more panic, like “I need to get out of here ASAP.” So it’s hard for me to relax at all. It’s a time in my life when I need to be able to perform / operate on all cylinders, and suddenly I can’t. I’m stuck in “you need to force yourself to do things” and “you need to heal first” mode. It’s very stressful and scary. I’d love more than anything for medication to help me right now, and of course, they are all working in reverse or causing issues. Argh. 

Thx you for listening. Sigh. 

 

[thelegend]

@Dave1 I know exactly how you feel and I am right there with you. I am constantly on edge and just trying to get through. I have a wife and 3 kids and a demanding job and I don’t know how much longer I can keep doing it all. Hopefully we can find strength in each other and heal together!

[Giulietta]

Hi there.

Back at you. A few comments if I may.

16 minutes ago, Dave1 said:

My relationship fell apart and suddenly my housing situation is in flux, so it’s like suddenly I have no foundation (this has all happened in the past 2 weeks).

 

Sorry to hear about your relationship. It seems you have a few things exacerbating your anxiety based on big life changes so being kinder to yourself is important. Perhaps treat yourself as you would a close friend who is having a tough time and who has a medicine issue/ health 'problem' he is working through.    I also live with my family and experience the same feelings from time to time. I am at the same time grateful to live with them now - although I would like to be on my own.

 

1 hour ago, Dave1 said:

but seems to create more panic, like “I need to get out of here ASAP.”

 

I feel this way sometimes too. I try to turn this around that I am grateful to be where I am - walk away to my room. It is also crummy so I get that.

 

Having a job is helpful and I hope you can continue to work.

 

1 hour ago, Dave1 said:

I’m stuck in “you need to force yourself to do things” and “you need to heal first” mode. It’s very stressful and scary. I’d love more than anything for medication to help me right now,

 

 

Likewise. I want to force myself to do things - push myself to work, etc. get on with my life (I am not working now)  but pushing myself has (or seems to have) resulted in set backs.

 

I am honestly afraid to make matters worse  by trying any meds to improve my functionality even when I have been feeling particularly badly and overwhelmed by this entire situation.

 

One thing that helps me sleep better is shutting off the computer now, meditate, relax, read, etc.

 

 

[Cathy4]

7 hours ago, Dave1 said:

I’m home with my family now, which should offer me comfort, but seems to create more panic, like “I need to get out of here ASAP.” So it’s hard for me to relax at all. It’s a time in my life when I need to be able to perform / operate on all cylinders, and suddenly I can’t. I’m stuck in “you need to force yourself to do things” and “you need to heal first” mode. It’s very stressful and scary.

I hear you, Dave.  
I’m at home with my Mother.  This entire thing turned me on my head.  I had to stop having these crazy expectations I have had of myself all of my life.  I have had to just slow down because it’s literally felt like a brain injury.  
 

Breathe and take things moment by moment if/when you can.  It’s a really really good sign you slept 5-6 hours.  Hang in there.  This excruciating time will pass.  
Cathy

[Altostrata]

How much magnesium are you taking and when?

[Snorky]

Hi D

 

I know you have a real basket of symptoms there, but am intrigued by the “restlessness”. Can you explain that. Mine is an inner variety that comes on early morning. It combines with a mental tension and just wears away at you, making you count every second. Tried everything to relieve, including meditation.

 

Good luck and God bless.

 

[Shep]

On 2/14/2020 at 9:18 PM, Dave1 said:

I tried to reinstate on the Xanax occasional use, which only made things worse. Hours after each dose, I seemed to go right back into acute withdrawal; each exposure to the Xanax was more painful and crazy,  including hallucinating, delirium tantrums, severe akisthesia, hypertension and unrelenting panic and anxiety. For days. Multiple ER visits and doctor appointments resulted in more benzos, making everything worse.

 

17 hours ago, Dave1 said:

In January I tried Xanax .5 as well as Xanax XR and clonapin, each time I had an adverse reaction and within 24 hours was horrifically sick and set back into acute withdrawal: deliriums, akisthesia, burning skin feeling, hallucinating etc. The only thing that relieved the kindled withdrawal was more benzos so it was a nightmare to get out of this cycle. Surprised I’m alive tbh.  I tried gabapentin and clonadine in the mix of this disaster in January too and seem to tolerate them okay, or at least didn’t notice an adverse reaction

 

Dave, the mods are discussing your case and I wanted to touch on what you wrote in these posts to get some more information. 

 

You mention on February 14 that using more benzos made everything worse, but yesterday, you mentioned that you got relief from taking benzos. Since it's possible you may get some relief from reinstating a benzo, possibly a longer-acting benzo (such as Valium), I'd like to ask some follow-up questions. 

 

Questions:

 

• You mention "clonapin" in that second post I quoted. Do you mean Klonopin? 
   
• Can you tell us more about how you were taking these benzos? Was it once a day? Two or three times a week? What were the doses? 
   
• Have you ever taken Valium? 
   
• You wrote - "I tried gabapentin and clonadine in the mix of this disaster in January too and seem to tolerate them okay, or at least didn’t notice an adverse reaction." Did you start these drugs after you had the reaction or while you were still on Xanax? The reason I'm asking is to try and see if your intense symptoms were an adverse reaction between this combination of drugs, interdose withdrawal from Xanax, or an adverse reaction to Xanax. 
   
• Are you taking any supplements now? If so, please add them to your signature (a direct link to your signature is here). Please give the dates you started and the doses.

 

There are "moderate" drug interactions between the drug assortment you mentioned taking in January (gabapentin and clonidine), so some of these intense symptoms may have been related to drug interactions, so if you can remember if you took these drugs at the same time as the benzo, that information will also be very helpful.

 

[Dave1]

5 hours ago, Altostrata said:

How much magnesium are you taking and when?

I’m not taking any right now. 

[Dave1]

22 minutes ago, Shep said:

• You mention "clonapin" in that second post I quoted. Do you mean Klonopin? 
   
• Can you tell us more about how you were taking these benzos? Was it once a day? Two or three times a week? What were the doses? 
   
• Have you ever taken Valium? 
   
• You wrote - "I tried gabapentin and clonadine in the mix of this disaster in January too and seem to tolerate them okay, or at least didn’t notice an adverse reaction." Did you start these drugs after you had the reaction or while you were still on Xanax? The reason I'm asking is to try and see if your intense symptoms were an adverse reaction between this combination of drugs, interdose withdrawal from Xanax, or an adverse reaction to Xanax. 
   
• Are you taking any supplements now? If so, please add them to your signature (a direct link to your signature is here). Please give the dates you started and the doses.

Thanks for your reply and questions. I really appreciate it. 
 

1. I meant klonapin. 
 

2. The effort to try benzos in January was out of desperation given my anxiety was spiking all over the place. I also reintroduced alcohol in January making everything worse. I couldn’t seem to tolerate the benzos. As an example, one day I followed the doctors advice to take 2MG Xanax spread throughout/ I took .5MG, I felt relief for 3/4 hours. I then took a 2nd .5MG and the relief only lasted 2 hours or so. The third and fourth dose that day also brought little relief. Then I was up at 2am and by 6am was in very serious acute withdrawal again (even just by the tiny re-exposure to the benzo). I have never taken Valium but I wouldn’t be opposed to trying again, it’s just these kindling withdrawal episodes got very, very intense very quickly. 
 

3. I took gapabentin and clonadine to try and calm the f down after the adverse reaction/ withdrawal from the benzo re-exposures.

 

4. I’m not taking any supplements now. I’m scared to take anything that touches gaba receptors. Before January I was taking handfuls/ l Theanine, gaba, ashwghanda, kava. 
 

I just badly want this to be over with and I have no idea how to stabilize. My latest thinking is gabapentin moderate dose to try and calm down as it doesn’t directly hit gaba receptors, instead mimics them from what I’ve read. I’ve also thought about reinstating Nardil tiny dose or trying lamictal tiny dose. I’ll be honest, everything feels like a mess. The fact that I tried Xanax multiple times a day and rapidly felt worse (and needing more) makes me very wary of trying benzos again as I feel it would be a circular loop of quickly needing more to avoid increasingly-scary kindled acute withdrawal episodes. No doctor would believe me that I entered withdrawal after such small re-exposures, but it happened / it’s like the withdrawal was reset....

 

more info I’ve found on this: 

 

https://w-bad.org/kindling/

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kindling_(sedative–hypnotic_withdrawal)

 

“Even with short-term re-exposures to benzodiazepines and/or alcohol, there are some anecdotal reports that people became physically dependent very quickly or they had neurotoxic-like reactions (where they felt the previous withdrawal, which had already seemingly healed, recur—also referred to as a “setback”) or paradoxical-like adverse reactions.”

 

Thanks again for your help. 🙏

[Shep]

2 minutes ago, Dave1 said:

2. The effort to try benzos in January was out of desperation given my anxiety was spiking all over the place. I also reintroduced alcohol in January making everything worse. I couldn’t seem to tolerate the benzos. As an example, one day I followed the doctors advice to take 2MG Xanax spread throughout/ I took .5MG, I felt relief for 3/4 hours. I then took a 2nd .5MG and the relief only lasted 2 hours or so. The third and fourth dose that day also brought little relief. Then I was up at 2am and by 6am was in very serious acute withdrawal again (even just by the tiny re-exposure to the benzo). I have never taken Valium but I wouldn’t be opposed to trying again, it’s just these kindling withdrawal episodes got very, very intense very quickly. 

 

Thank you, Dave. This is very helpful.

 

Please note that benzos and alcohol affect the same GABA receptors, so we recommend avoiding alcohol until you're 100% healed and maybe even for months afterwards. Benzo withdrawal can cause major damage to GABA receptors, so you want to treat your GABA receptors like fine china going forward. 

 

4 minutes ago, Dave1 said:

4. I’m not taking any supplements now. I’m scared to take anything that touches gaba receptors. Before January I was taking handfuls/ l Theanine, gaba, ashwghanda, kava. 

 

Some of those supplements are indeed problematic, so it's good you're no longer using them. You mentioned that magnesium is helpful. It's okay to use magnesium. It doesn't affect GABA and many people going through withdrawal find it helpful.

 

Magnesium, nature's calcium channel blocker

 

5 minutes ago, Dave1 said:

I just badly want this to be over with and I have no idea how to stabilize. My latest thinking is gabapentin moderate dose to try and calm down as it doesn’t directly hit gaba receptors, instead mimics them from what I’ve read. I’ve also thought about reinstating Nardil tiny dose or trying lamictal tiny dose.

 

Very good job on researching kindling. That is a valid concern. The fact that you stopped Xanax back in August, 6 months ago, and then tried to reinstate in January is problematic, as you've noted. Adding in alcohol and other drugs also complicates this. We generally don't recommend reinstating a benzo after 4 weeks since you last took it, so that's another issue to consider. 

 

Please don't add in anything just yet (except maybe a bit of magnesium, since you found that helpful). Let's give the moderators time to review your latest information. 

 

[Dave1]

3 hours ago, Snorky said:

intrigued by the “restlessness”. Can you explain that. Mine is an inner variety that comes on early morning. It combines with a mental tension and just wears away at you, making you count every second.

Yes, exactly. This is my chief complaint right now/ a constant feeling of unease, tension, or being on high alert. I can’t seem to shake it. It feels like my entire body is keyed up. Every minute sucks, I can’t even watch tv and unwind, or go to the gym.  It’s very scary. My hypothesis is that it’s hypersensitivity and I’m reacting to either chemicals in my environment or recent re-exposures to serotonin agents to try and feel well. It almost feels like a bit of serotonin toxicity. Idk. 😐 / thx for your comment and help.  
 

 

[Shep]

Dave, one more question - how many days in January did you take Xanax and Klonopin? 

[Dave1]

15 minutes ago, Shep said:

Dave, one more question - how many days in January did you take Xanax and Klonopin? 

Maybe 10 days spread throughout the month. I would try, realize this wasn’t working, try to tough out acute withdrawal a few days (because at the beginning of the month I was fine so I couldn’t believe what was happening to my body), try again type scenario given I was so disabled. It took me the full month to fully piece together what was going on - kindled withdrawal. The serious withdrawal lasted 3/4 days which included no sleep, hallucinations, rapid pulse, akisthesia, etc. out of desperation, I got an rx for Acamprosate, which was recommended in the wiki page for kindled withdrawal. It controlled the physical symptoms (it lowers glutamate), but came with crazy psychedelic like side effects, deep depression, bad rash, etc. 

 

If it sounds like it’s out a movie, it felt like it was. Trying to survive this has been my full time job lately....it has been the battle of my life. 😑

[Snorky]

18 minutes ago, Dave1 said:

Yes, exactly. This is my chief complaint right now/ a constant feeling of unease, tension, or being on high alert. I can’t seem to shake it. It feels like my entire body is keyed up. Every minute sucks, I can’t even watch tv and unwind, or go to the gym.  It’s very scary. My hypothesis is that it’s hypersensitivity and I’m reacting to either chemicals in my environment or recent re-exposures to serotonin agents to try and feel well. It almost feels like a bit of serotonin toxicity. Idk. 😐 / thx for your comment and help.  
 

 

Thanks D

 

Interesting point re serotonin syndrome-in my case it should be the opposite, lack of dopamine receptors etc. The restlessness has been there for a while, but not as pronounced. The mental anguish/tense feeling has also been plaguing me for weeks, but not as bad, and now compounding impact of restlessness.

 

My Doc has given me script for 37.5 mg Effexor to help. I’ve obviously been holding off on this. Perhaps I need to try magnesium and fish oil to see if that alleviates.

 

Good luck to you.

[Shep]

3 minutes ago, Dave1 said:

I got an rx for Acamprosate, which was recommended in the wiki page for kindled withdrawal. It controlled the physical symptoms (it lowers glutamate), but came with crazy psychedelic like side effects, deep depression, bad rash, etc. 

 

Acamprosate is a drug for alcohol craving. It's not something we would recommend for fixing benzo withdrawal. We don't know of any drug that can do this, which I think you're coming to figure out now.  Sadly, many of us went through a lot before reaching this conclusion. 

 

How long did you take Acamprosate? 

 

Please update your signature to reflect what you took in January. That will help us see your history at a glance.

 

Also, were you on any psych drugs prior to going on Nardil? MAOI's come with a lot of dietary restrictions, so it's generally not what most doctors prescribe first. Did you have a history of problems taking other psych drugs? 

[Dave1]

1 minute ago, Shep said:

Acamprosate is a drug for alcohol craving. It's not something we would recommend for fixing benzo withdrawal. We don't know of any drug that can do this, which I think you're coming to figure out now.  Sadly, many of us went through a lot before reaching this conclusion. 

 

How long did you take Acamprosate?

I took it a handful of times in January to control the crazy acute withdrawal stuff. It is for alcohol cravings but the mechanism of action works similar / it helps lower glutamate. It’s a pretty intense drug and I found it very very difficult to tolerate. 

 

I tried a merry go round of drugs before the Maoi and will update my signature. 

[thelegend]

1 hour ago, Dave1 said:

Yes, exactly. This is my chief complaint right now/ a constant feeling of unease, tension, or being on high alert. I can’t seem to shake it. It feels like my entire body is keyed up. Every minute sucks, I can’t even watch tv and unwind, or go to the gym.  It’s very scary. My hypothesis is that it’s hypersensitivity and I’m reacting to either chemicals in my environment or recent re-exposures to serotonin agents to try and feel well. It almost feels like a bit of serotonin toxicity. Idk. 😐 / thx for your comment and help.  
 

 

 

I think this is very common in withdrawal, maybe the mods could weigh in, but this is exactly what I deal with everyday along with waking up to extreme anxiety. Maybe this mean I too am kindled and take the Zoloft like I do is just making it worse? I don’t know if I have any answers for you as I am almost 10 months into a hold and dealing with the same feelings as you, but just know you are not alone. I know exactly how you are feeling and it is the absolute worst, we have to believe that someday it will get better!

[Dave1]

My gut is telling me that I’m just in serious withdrawal and hypersensitive. I need to stop freaking out about my symptoms and try for acceptance and to carry on as best as I can. I need to stabilize my housing situation ASAP as best as I can and try to keep things as calm and stable as possible. It’s very difficult to do. And I’m scared my system is sensitive to everything now so I will continually be set back. 😕 / I’m not sure what the path forward is for me at this point, things feel so bleak. 

[Altostrata]

Hi, Dave. Please stop experimenting with drugs. You're not going to be able to balance neurotransmitters or adjust glutamate by taking this or that.

 

Why did you take magnesium once, find it helped, and not take it again? If it helps even a little, that could take the edge off your symptoms and calm you down enough to make more measured decisions.

 

What kind of magnesium did you take, how much, and when?

[Dave1]

17 hours ago, Altostrata said:

What kind of magnesium did you take, how much, and when?

200mg magnesium citrate (this is the only version I seem to tolerate). I took it again last night and it seemed to help, but I really have no idea because I keep taking other things, too, in a panic’ed attempt to feel better. I’m going to try move forward to let my system stabilize a bit, I’m just tired of this. I need to focus on a low histamine diet (I seem to react to foods as well), and being gentle with myself. I’m scared I won’t survive this. 

[LaurafromCT]

Try downloading Insight Timer. There are many guided meditations with calming music. It's a free app. Something for everyone. Long and short sessions, secular and religious, different kinds of music and techniques. It's really soothing. 

[Altostrata]

You might take 200mg magnesium citrate 3 times a day. If you get loose bowels, you're taking too much at one time. Dissolving it in water and sipping it throughout the day can take the edge off symptoms.

 

Please stop changing drugs, take everything on a very regular schedule. Please keep daily notes of times of day you take your drugs, their dosages, and your symptoms throughout the day. You can post 24 hours of notes at a time in this topic, in a simple list format with time of day on the left and notation (symptom or drug and dosage) on the right.

 

 

[Cathy4]

Dave, 

how are you doing?