Csilover: What to do? Effexor

[Csilover]

I feel fine with only the Ativan in the morning. It doesn't make me feel sedated. I don't really notice a difference. @Shep

  

So just 75 in the evening and 12.5 mg at 3?

[Csilover]

Is it possible all of my old withdrawal symptoms like anhedonia will come back when I stop?

[Altostrata]

2 minutes ago, Csilover said:

Is it possible all of my old withdrawal symptoms like anhedonia will come back when I stop?

 

It is possible the amount of drugs you are taking is excessive to counter any withdrawal symptoms from prior drugs. Objective now is to minimize doses, then stabilization.

[Csilover]

Okay @Altostrata. They had pretty much gone away by then, but I understand I've shook things up. Glad my parents understand at least now. 

[Csilover]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4342667/

 

https://bodyandhealth.canada.com/drug/getdrug/seroquel#warnings  I’m nervous. It says it can cause pancreatitis and the description is how I felt last night. I also have been constipated most of this time and am getting those sharp pains again. Also chills.
 

@Altostrata @Shep

[Csilover]

I honestly don’t mind being completely off the seroquel and stabilizing and getting natural sleep back before beginning the benzo withdrawal. I don’t want to be on this medication any longer than I have to. I know I have to do it slow but I’d prefer to be off it completely before beginning benzo withdrawal. This medication is tearing me apart. It scares me what it can do to you in just two weeks. I already feel dependent on it. My body aches and I can’t go to the bathroom and when I do it’s not good. I also feel anxious right before dose every night. I am so angry at the doctors for putting me on this stuff and even angrier that they’d put me on such a high dose. I should have known better. I also keep getting th we sharp pains in my eyes since I started it. Luckily my ear pain has subsided since we lowered the dose. It feels like poison to my body. Also my brain feels like it’s burning and my legs get sharp pains an hour or so before my dose.

[Altostrata]

As Shep said, we are aware of the problems with Seroquel, that is why we suggested you decrease it first.

 

Have you been constipated since you started Seroquel? Are you drinking lots of water first thing in the morning? Do you get roughage from fresh fruits and vegetables? It's very important to take care of your insides by drinking enough water and eating fruits and veg.

 

When did these pains start? How often do you get these pains? Do they happen any particular times of day? Does your side feel swollen, if you push on it, does it hurt?

 

Otherwise, how are you feeling now that you've decreased Seroquel? How are you sleeping?

[Csilover]

sorry I’m just nervous. I’m predisposed diabetes and macular degeneration so it makes me nervous being on it for a long time.

Yeah since I’ve started it I go to the bathroom every 3-4 days. I’ve been eating really healthy. Drinking lots of water. Lots of fruits And veggies. I’m hungry a lot with this med but I’ve been trying to munch on healthy foods in the mean time. 

I usually get these pains an hour or two before my nighttime dose. They’ll come every 15 or so minutes. They don’t happen during the day. It’s been the last three days. No pain when I push down on my stomach though and no swelling. I’ll get chest pains on my left and right side intermittently when this happens. 
 

I actually had a really good day today. Emotionally I felt completely myself and didn’t have any anxiety until the evening. I felt fine until about 6-7. High anxiety. Luckily it went away pretty quickly. I slept really well last night. I’ve only had two nights of bad sleep so far since the drop down (knock on wood). most of my weird symptoms occur 1-4 hours before my nighttime dose. @Altostrata

 

thank you so much for helping me

[Altostrata]

Constipation is a known adverse effect of Seroquel. Could that be causing your gut pains?

 

You reduced Seroquel from 150mg to 75mg at night on April 28, correct? Please update your signature.

 

Has there been any fallout from that reduction?

 

It looks to me like you're getting an adverse reaction after you take Seroquel at 3 p.m. Please continue to post daily notes.

[Csilover]

Correct. I think it could be. I have trouble going to the bag room since I started it. I’ll update it. Overall I’d say I feel better than I did on 150. The fallout I have felt is two days of horrible anxiety. Crawling out of skin feeling. And two nights very little sleep riddled with physical anxiety and hyper ness. I’m also getting g shooting pains in hands and legs. @Altostrata

[Csilover]

8 am woke ip

9 took .5 Ativan 

10 felt really good. Felt like myself 

2 felt really good. 

3 took 12.5 seroquel
4 felt super good, a little out of it but good

6 started to feel horrible anxiety. Kept shaking 

7 anxiety subsided

8 Started to feel tired. Stomach pains. Tingling and sharp pains in legs. 
9 took 75 mg seroquel and .5 Ativan and .5 melatonin.

10 fell asleep.

7 am. Woke after a pretty good nights sleep. Only waking a few times. Stomach pains and chest pains. Not horrible though. Tingling/weakness in arms.

[Csilover]

Will there be another drop soon? @Altostrata

 

[Csilover]

I threw four months of healing out the window because I didn’t trust my judgement 😢 and thought I might have been crazy

[Shep]

Csilover, you're definitely stabilizing as far as your sleep goes. This is very good! 

 

I'm going to ask Alto what her advice is at this point. Here are two ideas:

 

• drop the 3 pm Seroquel

       OR

• reduce both Ativan doses by 50% (this will keep you on it twice a day to help with interdose withdrawal)

 

Your current dose of Seroquel is under 100 mg now, so you're in a much safer range with this drug. 

 

Please post your thoughts. Do you feel that the 3 pm Seroquel makes you sedated? You mention in your last drug and symptoms journal that you felt "felt super good, a little out of it but good."  Do you feel that being "a little out of it" is sedation from Seroquel? 

[Csilover]

It is possible. I’m not sure if it’s the seroquel but I do get foggy midday. However, I don’t have anywhere I have to be or have to do so I suppose i don’t mind. I think whatever you and @Altostrata think is best. Thank you guys so much for the help. I don’t mind reducing the Ativan now and I don’t mind dropping the 3 pm. I trust your guys judgement on this. On one hand it’d be nice to get rid of half of the Ativan now rather than later but the seroquel also scares me, but it does help me sleep. 

[Csilover]

You guys are the best btw. What you do helps so many people including me. @Altostrata @Shep thank you thank thank you 🙏 

[Csilover]

Could I crash from all these changes I’ve made? I’m so scared. My parents will not want to see me as they have the last few months. They won’t be able to take it. Please Let me know what you guys think about the seroquel or Ativan when you have time. I know you guys are busy

[Altostrata]

Sounds like the decrease in Seroquel gave you a jolt for a couple of days, you're stabilizing from it now. Suggest being careful in reduction from now on.

 

7 hours ago, Csilover said:

3 took 12.5 seroquel
4 felt super good, a little out of it but good

6 started to feel horrible anxiety. Kept shaking

 

It seems you get a spike in symptoms a few hours after you take 12.5mg Seroquel at 3 p.m. Peak plasma is 1.5 hours. 

 

It doesn't seem to be interdose withdrawal from the Ativan, as you don't have this symptom early in the morning. It appears to be a paradoxical reaction to the 12.5mg Seroquel.

 

How are you measuring the 3 p.m. Seroquel dose? Is it a quarter of a 50mg tablet?

 

If so, I would cut in in half by slicing through the middle, like horizontally cutting through the layers of a layer cake, and reduce to 6.25mg Seroquel at 3 p.m. 

Please let us know how you're doing.

[Csilover]

@Altostrata I cut up a 25 mg pill in half. I feel okay besides some anxiety rn but today that’s mostly induced by me. But I’ve calmed down by going on a walk. I’m getting this itching all over my legs as well as neuropathic pain. I can start taking the 6.25 tomorrow. I only have 200 mg tablets and 25 mg tablets. So I’ll cut up the 25s into 4ths?

[Csilover]

The last two days have been really good despite some of the discomfort. I feel myself personality wise. 
 

theoughout this withdrawal mess, I have had horrible vision. When I started to feel better the vision got better. It’s been good overall but after I take my seroquel it always gets worse. Still have constipation. 

i am getting itchiness in my eyes as well sometimes @Altostrata@Shep

[Csilover]

Is my next drop going to be a little more significant? Will that be soon? I don’t want to be more and more  dependent on it the longer I wait and have to drop. If I can drop more now, I’m fine suffering a bit for a couple of days to get it out of my system. Obviously you guys know best but I’m just really scared right now. 

[Altostrata]

1 hour ago, Csilover said:

So I’ll cut up the 25s into 4ths?

 

This is a good idea.

 

You may not even feel this decrease.

[Csilover]

Okay @Altostrata. Sounds good. I didn’t feel the last one 

[Csilover]

My jaw and my leg muscels keep tightening @Altostrata. Is that normal?

[Altostrata]

Not sure what you mean. You are taking drugs, they may have adverse effects.

[Csilover]

@Altostrata I just feel a bit rigid. Idk. How long does it take to get dependent? Bc I’ve not been on long and I’m scared of getting dependent. Would it be better to drop more sooner rather than later? I’m not questioning your judgement, I’m just curious on the reasoning behind things. Just to give my nervous system time to catch up? @Shep

[Csilover]

When you’re destabilized does it make you feel suicidal? I felt that way during my first withdrawal and had ideation. I had a good two days but now I keep getting suicidal thoughts. They are intrusive and I am frustrated. 

[Shep]

Yes, many of us have those thoughts during withdrawal. This thread can help:

 

"Change the channel" - dealing with cognitive symptoms

 

Go for a walk, watch a favorite TV show, listen to some favorite songs, call a friend, play a video game, etc. It's important to distract and just let those thoughts pass by. The importance you give them, the more power they have over you. 

 

[Csilover]

9 took .5 ativan

11 felt really hood. Felt like myself

12 felt good

2 started to feel anxious. Went on a walk

3 had therapy felt better after. took 12.5 seroquel.

4 started to feel an ious

5 suicidal thoughts. Anxiety and hopelessness. Crying.

6 crying

7 felt a bit better

8 anxiety again

9 anxiety. took 75 mg seroquel and .5 Ativan. Fell asleep. 
7 woke with knots in stomach. Feel Suicidal. Felt sleepy. 

8 feel better. Calm. Much more hopeful.

[Shep]

16 hours ago, Csilover said:

I can start taking the 6.25 tomorrow.

 

1 minute ago, Csilover said:

3 had therapy felt better after. took 12.5 seroquel.

4 started to feel an ious

5 suicidal thoughts. Anxiety and hopelessness. Crying.

 

Please go ahead and reduce the 3 pm Seroquel down to 6.25. You're continuing to get the adverse reaction Alto mentioned: 

 

17 hours ago, Altostrata said:

It seems you get a spike in symptoms a few hours after you take 12.5mg Seroquel at 3 p.m. Peak plasma is 1.5 hours. 

 

[Csilover]

@Shep this makes sense. When I was on 150 At night and 12.5 twice a day.  Once I lowered it, those thoughts have become much less and more prominent in early morning and evening.

 

before we dropped, I tried to find something to hurt myself before my parents caught me. It seems to make my suicidal thoughts way worse being on it.

 

im also assuming I’m destabilized from the Paxil adverse reaction and it’s catching up. I think people are attractive now and have had some windows of feeling romantic feelings. 

[Csilover]

It could be the Benzos as well. I’d never been so close to being suicidal before until I had Xanax last year. I don’t think I do well with them.

[Csilover]

April 18: 25 mg

April 19: 50 mg

April 20: 50 mg

April 21: 75 mg 

April 22: 12.5 2x daily, 100 mg 

April 23: 12.5 2x daily, 200 ( doctor upped it I didn’t sleep well, so I lowered it) mg 

April 24: 12.5 2x daily, 150 mg 

April 25: 12.5 2x daily, 150 mg 

April 26: 12.5 2x daily, 150 mg 

April 27: 12.5 2x daily, 150 mg 

April 28: 12.5 2x daily, 75 mg 

April 29: 12.5 x2 daily, 75 mg at night

April 30: 12.5 x2 daily 75 mg at night

May 1:12.5 x2 daily, 75 mg at night

May 2: 12.5 x1 daily, 75 mg at night

May 3: 12.5 x 1 daily, 75 mg at night

May 4: 12.5 x1 daily, 75 mg at night 

May 5: 6.25 x1 daily, 75 mg at night

[Altostrata]

6 hours ago, Csilover said:

before we dropped, I tried to find something to hurt myself before my parents caught me. It seems to make my suicidal thoughts way worse being on it.

 

I know this is hard for a young person, but you're going to need to manage these thoughts. They're just thoughts, you can push them away if you want to. You do not have to act on them. They are your emotional mind saying "This is a solution" but your thinking mind needs to push them away so you can figure something else out.

 

Psychiatric drugs can cause some people to have self-destructive thoughts -- another reason to push them away. These thoughts should diminish as the dosage diminishes.

 

Are you having family difficulties? Again, this is hard for a minor, are you able to get counseling or therapy? You're inside your family now, but if you can get an outside perspective, you might be better able to cope with them until you're independent.

 

I would not tell people you're suicidal as a figure of speech, they'll think you're serious. They only way they know how to respond is to give you more drugs.

[Csilover]

Okay @Altostrata. Thank you. 

 

I'm struggling a lot. Especially with the family thing. They want what's best for me and believe that is medicine. They are sort of coming around on some things and realizing I don't react well to most meds. I am trying to hold it all inside, because I don't want them to see I am struggling. It sucks, because the only thing I have is OCD and anxiety and everyone through this has diagnosed me with Bipolar with depression. I'm getting therapy three times a week, which is nice. I'll try to push away the thoughts. 

 

When this all started at the beginning of the year, I had windows and waves. Mostly waves. of Anhedonia, PSSD, Disassociation, major mood swings, horrible vision, head pressure, insomnia. I had an anger inside me that I never have had before. I would get so angry, which has never been me.  It all happened after an adverse reaction that left me destabilized. Eventually I healed towards the beginning of April. I felt myself again.  My sleep had improved. It happened over a couple of days and things got better and better and better. But then, my parents found out I wasn't taking my medications. They basically forced me to start taking it and said that they would legally find a way to make me start taking it if I didn't. I started Effexor for five days and I felt myself for the most part, but I panicked majorly, because I didn't want to take it. I knew it wasn't good for me. I couldn't sleep on it without Ativan. They took me to our local inpatient unit, because I told them I didn't need it and refused to take it.   I told them to let me go and not make me take this stuff. At the hospital, they made me think they understood I was going through. They acknowledged that it was likely the adverse reaction I had (which was pretty severe) that caused all of my issues I had these past few months. FINALLY someone understands. So, I thought. They stopped me on the Effexor and started me on the Seroquel 25. They told me it was safe, like a Benadryl. I was worried about numbed emotions and they told me that this wouldn't do that to me.  I slept for five hours in a row. I was relieved. The entire next day I was riddled with anxiety. Physically I felt awful and my stomach was in knots. In with a new doctor the next day. The new doctor saw that I had anxiety and said I could start Paxil. I was nervous about trying a serotogenic, but I was desperate. (If I would have waited a few days, the anxiety likely would have passed from stopping the  Effexor.) She started me low, on 5 mg, just in case I reacted badly. Well I did. Awfully. I immediately got the anhedonia back and no longer thought guys were attractive. I became suicidal and tried to find things in my room to kill myself with. I felt internally super restless and didn't sleep well the next night or the next. I asked to be moved to the room with a camera so I wouldn't hurt myself. They upped my Seroquel to 50 that night, because I couldn't sleep. The next night, I couldn't sleep either. The next I could sleep on 75 mg. I started to feel a little better. The anhedonia got a little milder. The last night, I was on 100 mg Seroquel and walked around like I was drunk. I slept really well though. I was discharged with 200 mg Seroquel by another doctor. When I got home, my mom felt that was too much. We  stuck to 150. I began to feel more and more depressed. Sleeping most of the day and watching tv. I was having those mood swings again. All kinds of weird physical symptoms as well. When I dropped the dose, I felt much more myself. My anxiety was bad for two or so days, but that passed. Followed by good days, now I don't feel good and feel destabilized. I have had mood swings and felt all over the place. I'm getting that head pressure I used to get. I just feel more agitated. I'm thankful I don't have anhedonia or disassociation, which were the worst symptoms. 

 

My biggest fear is all of my symptoms coming back again. I'm so scared. I would take something if I knew it would stabilize me. I don't mind taking it slow if that means I won't become so destabilized that all of those horrible symptoms come back. I don't know how my family will take it or how I will take it. I'm trying to find ways to cope. I've made vision boards. I go on walks. I try to stay distracted but the thought of going through it all again leaves me paralyzed sometimes. Especially, because it could have been prevented. I feel like such a fool. 

I'm angry with myself for what has happened. So angry. I would have been so much better now.  A month into even more healing and I wanted temporary comfort instead of thinking about what I knew was true. That medicine would worsen my condition and I'd just have to get off again. I felt like I had no way out.  It sucks. I just want to be stable again and will do whatever it takes to reduce the possibility of it all coming back.  I know there are no guarantees.I suppose if it does I can handle it. I just want it to come if its going to, so I can start healing now. My family sees me and thinks that my anxiety has returned and may need medicine.  I feel so alone because no one understands. 

[Altostrata]

We don't provide psychotherapy here, this is just my 2 cents: You'd do well to talk to your therapist about finding ways to manage and express your emotions. You will also need to develop the confidence to tell your family you will be responsible for yourself. This is a necessary part of growing up that can be difficult. You may need to challenge or confront your parents.

 

As long as you appear to be overwhelmed by your feelings, they will want to fix you, which generally means psychiatric drugs.

 

If they can see you are responsible and confident, they will not feel they need to solve your problems for you. But you need to build confidence and take responsibility.