Manati: Effexor-withdrawal - in need of help, please!

[tryingtosurvive330]

1 hour ago, Manati said:

 

Dear tryingtosurvive 💗

 

Yes it's exactly as you say - the entire situation is so incredibly hard to live through, we just have to reach out and support one another. Also, whenever I experience a particularly bad situation, I find it reassuring to doublecheck that it is still in the range of 'normal', considering the circumstances. I'm really glad if I can help you feel a little less alone in this struggle.

 

To answer your question - yes, I had my first AD prescribed for depression/anxiety in 2002, and the Venlafaxin for panic attacks 3 years later. In both cases, I can clearly identify triggers that started off my feelings: I suffer from a rare form of migraine with a strong, mostly visual 'aura' before the attack. In 1999, while I was still in school, I suffered such an aura - it was really strong (with impaired vision, speech, tactile sensation) and didn't completely fade for about 2 weeks! I was in hospital but they couldn't help me. When the symptoms finally cleared up, my first depression set in - I think I just couldn't fully integrate that traumatic experience and would have needed therapy at the time. I didn't fully recover until 2002, and also became more and more anxious/overwhelmed with being a young adult supposed to set up 'a life', that's when I got prescribed Fluoxetin.

The panic attacks set in after having to share a room with a (probably fairly traumatized) young woman from Ivory Coast during a Summer job in Paris (in 2005). That girl bullied me big time, and over the course of a few weeks, I started having severe panic attacks. It was an awful experience.

 

How about yourself? From what I just read in your thread, you can identify some triggers for feeling so bad right now, but how about when you first started feeling so low that you considered AD? Like you, I am now pretty sure that I would have gotten through my crisis without AD- with a sufficient support, understanding and time. It makes me really sad that we don't seem to live in a time where that's possible. It seems like you were really stressed after working too hard, and missing the most important person in your life - your brother. It's so understandable that you're feeling low!!

I really hope that you'll experience some relief from your stress and get to meet your brother very soon!!

 

..and thank you so much for complimenting my English - as a foreigner, it is hard to ever really feel 'secure' in another language, so I'm really happy about you saying that! 💗

 

 

Yes, Manati - the first time was due to a bad breakup from a relationship of over 5 years with a man who was emotionally abusive, and 10 years older than me.

The second time, which I think doctors would call relapse but now I'm not really sure, I switched jobs (to the one I am in now). It was a huge change for me and I was really scared, as I had only worked at one place for the duration of my career, it was a big place and I had a lot of friends. The new company was just a shock and I was the only one in my function, and I didn't know how to handle it.

 

This time, I'm aching for there to be a "fix-it" solution, like there should be one clear reason I feel this way. I know that's not healthy but then when I came here I thought my answer was WD. but it didn't make me feel any better, thinking I am now so screwed up from medication.

 

Last night I woke up every single hour. It was exhausting. I have low mood but the anxiety is pretty low to none in the past day or so. It hasn't even been that long that i've been *really* going through this and I'm so fed up and tired, and sad. The night before I had slept okay, and I had not taken a single supplement or anything, so I tried the same yesterday. Unfortunately.....this was the outcome. It sucks that the rhythm is thrown off/my documentation now doesn't show any clear signs of what helped.

[Manati]

1 hour ago, tryingtosurvive330 said:

 

Yes, Manati - the first time was due to a bad breakup from a relationship of over 5 years with a man who was emotionally abusive, and 10 years older than me.

The second time, which I think doctors would call relapse but now I'm not really sure, I switched jobs (to the one I am in now). It was a huge change for me and I was really scared, as I had only worked at one place for the duration of my career, it was a big place and I had a lot of friends. The new company was just a shock and I was the only one in my function, and I didn't know how to handle it.

 

This time, I'm aching for there to be a "fix-it" solution, like there should be one clear reason I feel this way. I know that's not healthy but then when I came here I thought my answer was WD. but it didn't make me feel any better, thinking I am now so screwed up from medication.

 

Last night I woke up every single hour. It was exhausting. I have low mood but the anxiety is pretty low to none in the past day or so. It hasn't even been that long that i've been *really* going through this and I'm so fed up and tired, and sad. The night before I had slept okay, and I had not taken a single supplement or anything, so I tried the same yesterday. Unfortunately.....this was the outcome. It sucks that the rhythm is thrown off/my documentation now doesn't show any clear signs of what helped.

 

Hey tryingtosurvive,

 

I'm so sorry you had to go through such painful experiences - I think being emotionally abused would leave traces in anyone, let alone a sensitive person. And the job change you went through sounds huge and fairly traumatic, too! I'm not saying anyone would develop depression under such stress, but as a sensitive/vulnerable person, this is just what seems to happen. I wish we could just live a life that's more suitable to being this way, or at least provides better conditions for healing.

 

Oh, I know that hourly-wake-up routine all too well!! It's so awful! Maybe you fell less anxiety today because your system is sort of 'empty' - at least that's what I observed within myself: After a particulary bad night, I usually just feel flat and numb during the later day.

 

I know - it's so frustrating how unpredictable things are!! You think you found something that worked, and it seems to have the opposite effect or none next time you try it.

 

I tried to cope with mindfulness, letting things happen the other day - but the nightly horror peak just screwed it all over in an instant. I felt so defeated!

 

I really hope your next night will be better!! 💗

[tryingtosurvive330]

I am trying to practice mindfulness as well, but right now I feel as though I'm just reciting things and not able to imprint them or believe them at all. Almost like I'm a robot being fed the words.

 

I do feel flat, numb and very sad. Usually I think being tired worsens my anxiety but maybe you are right that I'm just drained. Both feelings are awful.

 

Are you doing anything outside of the house right now? I heard that Germany is under very strict lockdown. Are you surrounded by people?

[Manati]

1 hour ago, tryingtosurvive330 said:

I am trying to practice mindfulness as well, but right now I feel as though I'm just reciting things and not able to imprint them or believe them at all. Almost like I'm a robot being fed the words.

 

I do feel flat, numb and very sad. Usually I think being tired worsens my anxiety but maybe you are right that I'm just drained. Both feelings are awful.

 

Are you doing anything outside of the house right now? I heard that Germany is under very strict lockdown. Are you surrounded by people?

 

Hi tryingtosurvive,

 

I feel that mindfulness can help to a degree, for 'ordinary' panic attacks for example. That early morning horror peak though is just too horrible to 'accept', it's like a nightly trauma and makes me scared to fall asleep.

Yes it could be both - feeling drained from a bad nigth's sleep, or an understandable sadness about the situation..

I make sure to get out into nature for a long walk with my dog everyday. That really helps, if just for the moment. And I'm surrounded by my very understanding and patient boyfriend and his lovely parents, so I have a lot of support. And still it all feels too hard!!

How about yourself, are you on your own in this situation?  I hope not!?

[tryingtosurvive330]

I agree about mindfulness during "ordinary" attacks.

 

Yes, I live by myself in a large home, and I do not have a partner so this is extremely discouraging for me.

[Manati]

1 hour ago, tryingtosurvive330 said:

I agree about mindfulness during "ordinary" attacks.

 

Yes, I live by myself in a large home, and I do not have a partner so this is extremely discouraging for me.

 

That sounds really tough indeed. You shouldn't be going through this on your own! It's a shame you live halfway around the planet  - if you were here I'd drag you outside on my dogwalks .. I swear they help.

Feel free to message me anytime, I can also send you my skype address if you'd like to talk in person.

It's 1pm here now and I'll try to sleep (wish me luck!).

[Manati]

As a general update: the Venlafaxine seems to be doing something, I'm just not quite sure what: I'm not feeling as anxious anymore, but wide awake at night time. In fact, I could barely sleep during the past 2 nights! The good thing is that I didn't have those horrific anxiety peaks either - I wonder if that's due to the Venlafaxine doing its job or the mere fact that they are linked to certain sleep states that I don't currently have?

It's been 2 weeks since reinstating, and I'm still taking my 3 beads and nothing else except omega3 and magnesium.

[Manati]

Dear Moderators / anyone who may be able to help!

 

I'm feeling really desperate right now after the 3rd night without sleep.

I feel the Venlafaxine reinstatement from 26th December is starting to show effect now, and the good news is that I'm not feeling as anxious and depressed anymore. However, I feel I'm losing my mind being not able to sleep at all!!

It really worries me and I don't know how to proceed! I know I shouldn't make sudden changes to my reinstatement routine - but would a reduction to 2 beads be called for in this situation?

I don't want to start throwing sleeping pills into my system now either.

Do you know if this extreme insomnia commonly occurs after reinstating, and if it usually fades/improves?

 

I would really appreciate your advice!

[manymoretodays]

Hi Maniti,

 

So you are now off the Lyrica, and no further Diazepam?

Anything else additional lately?  Alcohol?  Stressors, outside of the ordinary?

 

I had thought you had a good day, or Window day there recently.

 

Any non-drug coping helping?

Tips to help sleep: so many of us have that awful withdrawal insomnia

Are you falling asleep and then not staying asleep?

What time do you attempt to get to sleep?  Has it been consistent?

No computers or screens for several hours before bedtime?

(I used to use the television, at a distance though, for background, when I couldn't settle and sleep well)

 

The insomnia can often be a WD symptom Maniti.  And a tough one, a very tough one, for sure.  Are you able to get any sleep at all?  Or to even stay in bed, in the dark and quiet, and get relaxed?  Are you able to nap at all?

 

Are you still taking your Effexor early enough in the day, that it won't mess so much with your sleep.

Any headaches? 

 

And try doing a NOTE too, Maniti, with a 24 hour segment.  I think you did at least a couple before. 

 

And good, great support you are getting here, with non-drug coping too, for your increased fears and anxieties.

 

I'm holding on telling you to back down to 2 beads right now.  I just want a bit more information.  Thanks.

 

Oh, and (((((Maniti))))

 

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

 

[tryingtosurvive330]

@Manati thank you so much for your kind support. I may pm you so we can talk some day. I would like to but something makes me feel cowardly for wanting to talk and also wanting to hide behind this screen. Even though I'm not fighting with anyone (I never do..)...I don't know if that makes sense. The comfort? Even though I would like to talk.

 

I'm so sorry you're not able to sleep. It's terrifying for me.

[Bobblehead]

Hello, Venlafaxine survivor here.

 

I quit cold turkey 8 years ago, from 75mg. I didn't know anything about tapering and was told not to break open the capsules when I was first put on it. I had no idea what was happening to me.  It was 4-5 months of hell. Hot flashes, cold sweats, anxiety, brain zaps, akathisia and just generally feeling like sh*t. I know what your going through and it is not fun. I didn't start feeling better until month 4 and was mostly recovered by month 5. I wish I knew about tapering, it probably would have made my experience a little more tolerable.

 

Keep at it and stay strong, the withdrawals are brutal but in my experience they did come to an end.

[Manati]

40 minutes ago, manymoretodays said:

Hi Maniti,

 

So you are now off the Lyrica, and no further Diazepam?

Anything else additional lately?  Alcohol?  Stressors, outside of the ordinary?

 

I had thought you had a good day, or Window day there recently.

 

Any non-drug coping helping?

Tips to help sleep: so many of us have that awful withdrawal insomnia

Are you falling asleep and then not staying asleep?

What time do you attempt to get to sleep?  Has it been consistent?

No computers or screens for several hours before bedtime?

(I used to use the television, at a distance though, for background, when I couldn't settle and sleep well)

 

The insomnia can often be a WD symptom Maniti.  And a tough one, a very tough one, for sure.  Are you able to get any sleep at all?  Or to even stay in bed, in the dark and quiet, and get relaxed?  Are you able to nap at all?

 

Are you still taking your Effexor early enough in the day, that it won't mess so much with your sleep.

Any headaches? 

 

And try doing a NOTE too, Maniti, with a 24 hour segment.  I think you did at least a couple before. 

 

And good, great support you are getting here, with non-drug coping too, for your increased fears and anxieties.

 

I'm holding on telling you to back down to 2 beads right now.  I just want a bit more information.  Thanks.

 

Oh, and (((((Maniti))))

 

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

 

 

Dear Manymoretodays!

 

Thank you so much for your response and kind advice!

 

Apart from the 3 beads of Venlafaxine which I daily take around noon, there is nothing else in my system. No lyrica, diazepam, and I'd never drink alcohol in my situation. I go to bed around midnight every day, I'm probably guilty of using my laptop too late though. (I have a blue-light-filter)

 

In general, I feel that the Venlafaxine is 'covering' my anxiety already, and also those feelings of hopelessness have improved a little.

 

But now it is the extreme insomnia plaguing me. I try to use non-drug coping skills such as dissolving emotional spirals and mindfulness. I feel they are helping me to relax, but not to fall asleep.

I can relax and 'unwind' during some phases of those long nights, but I don't fall sleep at all. I slept 1 hour from 1pm to 2pm in the afternoon, but that's certainly not enough to keep my system going.

 

The key question for me right now is whether this insomnia is due to withdrawal or the Venlafaxine kicking in? I suspect the latter - since before, I had bad anxiety attacks at night time, but could sleep hourwise in between. But I'm not sure.

 

So you think I should proceed with the 3 beads for now?

 

Thank you very much!

 

 

 

11pm omega 3 fish oil

0.30am lights off, listening to relaxing tunes, reading, tossing around until around 8am.

Earlier during the night, I sometimes ALMOST fell asleep, but then felt like an electric shock alerting and waking me!

10am breakfast

12pm 3 beads of Venlafaxine

1pm-2pm slept for about 1h20! Feeling awful afterwards.

3pm-5pm walk with dog, feeling light headed and spaced out

6pm dinner

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Manati]

1 hour ago, Bobblehead said:

Hello, Venlafaxine survivor here.

 

I quit cold turkey 8 years ago, from 75mg. I didn't know anything about tapering and was told not to break open the capsules when I was first put on it. I had no idea what was happening to me.  It was 4-5 months of hell. Hot flashes, cold sweats, anxiety, brain zaps, akathisia and just generally feeling like sh*t. I know what your going through and it is not fun. I didn't start feeling better until month 4 and was mostly recovered by month 5. I wish I knew about tapering, it probably would have made my experience a little more tolerable.

 

Keep at it and stay strong, the withdrawals are brutal but in my experience they did come to an end.

 

Thank you so much, Bobblehead, for your message! Reading about someone else having gone through this is really encouraging! I sometimes read throuh the 'success stories' on here, and they leave me more scared than anything - talking about recoveries of around 80% afterYEARS!!

So my strategy is trying to reinstate and hope for the best. Keep your fingers crossed for me to be able to sleep these days - this degree of insomnia is really worrying me!

And thank you so much again for your encouragement!! ♥️

 

[Manati]

2 hours ago, tryingtosurvive330 said:

@Manati thank you so much for your kind support. I may pm you so we can talk some day. I would like to but something makes me feel cowardly for wanting to talk and also wanting to hide behind this screen. Even though I'm not fighting with anyone (I never do..)...I don't know if that makes sense. The comfort? Even though I would like to talk.

 

I'm so sorry you're not able to sleep. It's terrifying for me.

 

Dear tryingtosurvive!

 

No worries at all - I can totally relate to wanting to hide behind the screen. But if you're feeling alone and overwhelmed with the situation, the offer is always there. ♥️

 

Thank you so much for your compassion - I'm also terrified right now. I'm wondering what this night is holding for me, and it scares me. If only I'd get a few hours sleep!!

 

Keep your fingers crossed for me!!

 

[Bobblehead]

19 minutes ago, Manati said:

 

Thank you so much, Bobblehead, for your message! Reading about someone else having gone through this is really encouraging! I sometimes read throuh the 'success stories' on here, and they leave me more scared than anything - talking about recoveries of around 80% afterYEARS!!

So my strategy is trying to reinstate and hope for the best. Keep your fingers crossed for me to be able to sleep these days - this degree of insomnia is really worrying me!

And thank you so much again for your encouragement!! ♥️

 

 

You're welcome. I'm trying to get off Olanzapine and I too read through the success stories regarding Olanzapine cessation, unfortunately across the entire Internet I have found very few, it can be discouraging at times.

 

Like you I am experiencing a lot of insomnia, it's the absolute worst. There are some nights when I get some sleep but there are many nights when I don't sleep at all, I just lay in bed with my eyes closed resting, sometimes my mind won't turn off, even when my mind is calm I can't sleep. I try to concentrate on my breathing and remain calm with relaxing visualizations, but without sleep it makes the next day really hard. I've been off Olanzapine for about 6 weeks now but I've been dealing with insomnia for months during my taper.

 

One thing I can recommend is that you read up on CBT (Cognitive Behavioural Therapy) for sleep, it may help you, I've found it has stopped me from fearing my bed. I use to have a lot of trepidation come night because I knew it would probably be another sleepless night, but thanks to CBT that is not really a concern anymore. It doesn't give me a full nights sleep but I still don't know a lot about CBT for sleep yet, I'm still learning but it is interesting at the very least.

[brassmonkey]

Periodic insomnia is a major problem with ADWD, it is a very common and very upsetting symptom. It does, however, follow a window and wave pattern. So even when it shows up you can be sure that it will go away. Venlafaxine is one of the worst for causing it, as insomnia is both a side effect and a WD symptom, making it very hard to tell which is which. If a person is in the middle of a taper and taking only a small amount it is more than likely a WD symptom. That doesn't make it any less upsetting.

 

MMT has given a lot of good advise/information on how to make things more conducive to sleep. They can all help, but can take time and practice to kick in. Because WD insomnia is caused by the chemical reactions in the body it is very hard to control and has to be lived with until it runs it's course and settled down. Lack of sleep in and of it's self doesn't do any lasting harm to the body, it just makes it hard to function in the "real world".

 

Insomnia is a self propitiation condition. One of it's major symptoms is anxiety or worry about how we will survive. This worry causes us to have even more trouble sleeping and it goes on and on in a big circle. Acceptance of the situation is the key to breaking the cycle and decreasing the symptoms. There is very little we can do to actually cure the insomnia, so we have to live with it until it goes away. This could be likened to an example I give in the article "Dealing With Emotional Spirals". It is  like an unwanted house guest we can't make leave, all we can do is put up with them until they get bored and go away. How you put up with them will decide how miserable the situation becomes.  

[manymoretodays]

Thanks brass, and apologies Manati, on not being more direct.

2 hours ago, Manati said:

So you think I should proceed with the 3 beads for now?

Sometimes I just don't know.  Honest.

Back when you reported headaches, I know that Alto had suggested going on back to 1 beads from 2 beads.

  

On 12/30/2020 at 9:01 PM, Altostrata said:

If you are reliably getting the headaches at the same time since taking 2 beads per day, I would back down to 1 bead per day. If they continue after a week, discontinue.

 

And then I think you may have increased beads, at that time.

And so.......you now have a couple options really.

To wait it out with 3 beads, while working hard on non-drug coping for anxiety, as well as insomnia.  And give it all another week, at least to settle on in.

Or if, you really feel like this is new onset insomnia, above and beyond, where it had been at before, to go ahead and decrease to 2 beads.

 

It is, always best, to stay with changes, without any additions for a good while too.  The nervous system likes that kind of stability, it helps.  And it's only been 8 days now, since you had done some additions with the Lyrica and the diazepam too.  So you might still be settling a bit from that.

 

And okay, hope that helps you to decide, and even empowers you a bit too.

 

Best, L, P, H, and G,

mmt

 

[Manati]

44 minutes ago, brassmonkey said:

Periodic insomnia is a major problem with ADWD, it is a very common and very upsetting symptom. It does, however, follow a window and wave pattern. So even when it shows up you can be sure that it will go away. Venlafaxine is one of the worst for causing it, as insomnia is both a side effect and a WD symptom, making it very hard to tell which is which. If a person is in the middle of a taper and taking only a small amount it is more than likely a WD symptom. That doesn't make it any less upsetting.

 

MMT has given a lot of good advise/information on how to make things more conducive to sleep. They can all help, but can take time and practice to kick in. Because WD insomnia is caused by the chemical reactions in the body it is very hard to control and has to be lived with until it runs it's course and settled down. Lack of sleep in and of it's self doesn't do any lasting harm to the body, it just makes it hard to function in the "real world".

 

Insomnia is a self propitiation condition. One of it's major symptoms is anxiety or worry about how we will survive. This worry causes us to have even more trouble sleeping and it goes on and on in a big circle. Acceptance of the situation is the key to breaking the cycle and decreasing the symptoms. There is very little we can do to actually cure the insomnia, so we have to live with it until it goes away. This could be likened to an example I give in the article "Dealing With Emotional Spirals". It is  like an unwanted house guest we can't make leave, all we can do is put up with them until they get bored and go away. How you put up with them will decide how miserable the situation becomes.  

 

Many many thanks, Brass, for your kind and helpful response!!

 

I did have trouble sleeping due to the anxiety attacks before, however at least I got SOME sleep. Due to the fact it's been exactly 2 weeks since reinstating, I suspect it is the Venlafaxine's effect.

IF that is the case - will it still fade in your experience? Even if I keep taking my daily microdose? Will my body get used to the drug and stabilize into a more or less normal sleep pattern?

That is the key question for me in order to decide on whether to 'downdose'.

At the moment I feel as if I had taken amphetamines!

 

Thank you very much for your opinion on that!

 

Also, thank you for your input on how to deal with the insomnia. I am trying to deal with the emotional spirals and use mindfulness. It does help a little, but I feel that, as you wrote, there is nothing I can do to overcome the brain chemistry stopping me from sleeping. It also makes a huge difference to my mindset whether I can sleep at least a little or not at all.

 

 

[Manati]

1 hour ago, manymoretodays said:

Thanks brass, and apologies Manati, on not being more direct.

Sometimes I just don't know.  Honest.

Back when you reported headaches, I know that Alto had suggested going on back to 1 beads from 2 beads.

  

 

And then I think you may have increased beads, at that time.

And so.......you now have a couple options really.

To wait it out with 3 beads, while working hard on non-drug coping for anxiety, as well as insomnia.  And give it all another week, at least to settle on in.

Or if, you really feel like this is new onset insomnia, above and beyond, where it had been at before, to go ahead and decrease to 2 beads.

 

It is, always best, to stay with changes, without any additions for a good while too.  The nervous system likes that kind of stability, it helps.  And it's only been 8 days now, since you had done some additions with the Lyrica and the diazepam too.  So you might still be settling a bit from that.

 

And okay, hope that helps you to decide, and even empowers you a bit too.

 

Best, L, P, H, and G,

mmt

 

 

Dear Manymoretodays,

 

thank you so much for your effort and patience with me.

 

I remember Altostrata suggesting downdosing to 1 bead in connection with my headaches. At the time, I decided against it as I couldn't clearly tell whether my headaches had really worsened since the reinstatement, but noticed that my anxiety had improved.

 

Thank you also for outlining my options. I think the effects I am noticing right now should be from the 2 bead - reinstatment. In that logic, I will only notice the effect from the 3-bead updose in another week or so?

Allow me one more question, Manymoretodays: If the insomnia is caused by the Venlafaxine - will it still fade/ will my body still adapt and stabilize its sleep? What is your experience with that?

That is really a key question for me in order to decide on whether to downdose or not...

 

Many many thanks for your effort and input!!

 

[Manati]

1 hour ago, Bobblehead said:

 

You're welcome. I'm trying to get off Olanzapine and I too read through the success stories regarding Olanzapine cessation, unfortunately across the entire Internet I have found very few, it can be discouraging at times.

 

Like you I am experiencing a lot of insomnia, it's the absolute worst. There are some nights when I get some sleep but there are many nights when I don't sleep at all, I just lay in bed with my eyes closed resting, sometimes my mind won't turn off, even when my mind is calm I can't sleep. I try to concentrate on my breathing and remain calm with relaxing visualizations, but without sleep it makes the next day really hard. I've been off Olanzapine for about 6 weeks now but I've been dealing with insomnia for months during my taper.

 

One thing I can recommend is that you read up on CBT (Cognitive Behavioural Therapy) for sleep, it may help you, I've found it has stopped me from fearing my bed. I use to have a lot of trepidation come night because I knew it would probably be another sleepless night, but thanks to CBT that is not really a concern anymore. It doesn't give me a full nights sleep but I still don't know a lot about CBT for sleep yet, I'm still learning but it is interesting at the very least.

 

Hey Bobblehead!

 

Oh I know too well what you are talking about  - you're hoping to find encouraging success stories online and those you find are about decades of suffering and long term effects. But please, don't let that discourage you - you're only 6 weeks out and did a proper taper, so I'm sure while things are bad right now, you'll be fine much sooner!!

 

I'm so sorry you are going through the same terrible insomnia experience! Just like you - even if my mind IS calm, it makes no difference to my ability to sleep. I'm so grateful for getting at least a LITTLE sleep - but with the 3rd night in a row without sleep, I'm starting to get really worried. It looks like you can relate to the terror of not being able to sleep at all!!

 

Thank you so much for recommending CBT for sleep, I will look into that! I think it might be useful as I also start fearing the entire 'trying to sleep'-situation! What I do right now is listening to relaxing tunes on youtube. It doesn't help me to sleep, but eases the terror of the situation.

 

I will go to bed now and face it. Keep your fingers crossed for me, I'll keep this thread updated!

[Altostrata]

Manati, can you outline which symptoms improved and which got worse when you were taking varying amounts of Effexor?

[Manati]

9 hours ago, Altostrata said:

Manati, can you outline which symptoms improved and which got worse when you were taking varying amounts of Effexor?

 

Dear Alto,

 

thanks so much for taking your time and looking into my case.

 

The extreme nightly peaks of panic subsided already 2 days after reinstating, which really encouraged me. I still had a nightly state of panic, but it wouldn't last quite as long.

5 days after reinstating, I was extremely agitated in the morning and had restless legs/strong agitation that kept me awake for about 3 hours at night. I am sure those symptoms came from reinstating, but they subsided. 7 days after reinstating, my legs were severely 'cramping' during the night which kept me awake. But this was also just during one night, and then subsided.

 

I consistently had headaches both before and after reinstating - looking at my notes I'd say they initially remained the same and meanwhile subsided. These days, I still have headaches, but they aren't as bad anymore.

 

My anxiety consistently improved under the Venlafaxine, which really convinced me to not stop the reinstatement!

The night of 7th January (so about 10 days after reinstatment) was the last one with a severe state of panic - it was followed by my 3-day-insomnia (without panic - but maybe that was due to not sleeping?). 

I'm quite sure the insomnia was caused by the Venlafaxine showing effect, and was/am very worried this would be a trade off for the benefit of fading anxiety.

 

Now last night was the very first one of getting some sleep (waking up every 2 hours but then going back to sleep) AND also not experiencing a severe state of panic. I feel that the Venlafaxine is sort of 'covering' the psychological panic, while the phsyological signs (the cortisol rush, fast hear rate etc.) are still there and wake me up. So I woke up around 4 and felt the cortisol flooding my system, but my mind remained sort of numb. It doesn't feel good or 'right', but still better than the full blown panic/anxiety, that I had before.

 

The first half of the day still feels horrible, with deep feelings of inadequacy/worthlessness/guilt/loneliness etc. Those usually get better in the evening.

 

I updosed to 3 beads on 3rd January - if the therapeutic effect only shows 2-3 weeks later, I should now still be experiencing the effect of the intital 2 beads?

 

So far I would say the reinstatement showed more positive than negative effect (especially in regard to my nightly horror attacks and general anxiety) - but that is only if the insomina doesn't return.

Those 3 sleepless nights had me question the reinstatement/ my current dosage. But since I did get some sleep last night, I am a bit more hopeful now.

 

I'll try to keep in mind that the effect I'm now experiencing might still be the result of the 2 beads-period, so I suppose I should wait for the effect of the 3 beads showing up before deciding on any dosage change?

 

I try to remain sensible and rational, it's only challenges like those 3 sleepless nights that make me question everything/tempt me to make quick changes!

 

Thank you for your time and feedback!!

[Altostrata]

What times of day do you take your drugs, and their dosages? You'll have to be very regular in taking the venlafaxine at the same time each day.

[Manati]

10 hours ago, Altostrata said:

What times of day do you take your drugs, and their dosages? You'll have to be very regular in taking the venlafaxine at the same time each day.

 

I take the 3 beads around noon, maybe I wasn't regular enough with that - it can be 11am or 1pm. I'll try and religiously stick to a time from now on.

 

Last night was mostly sleepless again, and the morning was extremely awful in terms of feelings of worthlessness, hopelessness and depression. I have no idea why it was so bad, and how I should ever go through such a morning again!! Right now I'm feeling desperate, I'd do anything for things to change!! In those moments I wonder if I shouldn't just updose big time, and if those 3 beads could ever be enough to make things better!!

 

[Manati]

4 hours ago, Manati said:

 

I take the 3 beads around noon, maybe I wasn't regular enough with that - it can be 11am or 1pm. I'll try and religiously stick to a time from now on.

 

Last night was mostly sleepless again, and the morning was extremely awful in terms of feelings of worthlessness, hopelessness and depression. I have no idea why it was so bad, and how I should ever go through such a morning again!! Right now I'm feeling desperate, I'd do anything for things to change!! In those moments I wonder if I shouldn't just updose big time, and if those 3 beads could ever be enough to make things better!!

 

 

..but then again - I am feeling so extremely agitated right now - this must be an effect of the Venlafaxine!

I can't possibly sleep in such an agitated mode, so maybe I should go back to 2 beads to let things calm down? I'm completely confused right now!!

[Altostrata]

Why not take the 3 beads in the morning?

[Manati]

12 hours ago, Altostrata said:

Why not take the 3 beads in the morning?

 

Thank you Alto, I could do that. Do you think it could positively affect the insomnia? I could sleep last night (THANK GOD!!!), but am already worried that I might not be able to sleep in the coming night.. As my entire 'functioning' depends so much on sleep, it is really an essential development of the reinstatement/the question of how to proceed.

[Manati]

So - last night was pretty bad again. I was so tired but I feel the Venlafaxine is activating my system - it's torturous. I've read that in low doses, the noradrenaline-inhibiting component of the drug is not active, so it shouldn't be that activating on such a microdose? However, the insomnia is new since reinstating. Or has it just replaced the states of panic? I'm clueless at what to do - does anyone here have experience with reinstating Venlafaxine/Effexor and insomnia as a consequence? Does it fade out or last forever?

I'm wondering if I shouldn't downdose to 2 beads and see if I can sleep again?

Thank you for any advice, input, support!

[tryingtosurvive330]

Manati sending you love and support. I have been in my corner trying to make it to the next day every day. I just reinstated as well. Lower anxiety but still the worst sleep and such an empty, low mood. I wish you some rest.

[Manati]

11 hours ago, tryingtosurvive330 said:

Manati sending you love and support. I have been in my corner trying to make it to the next day every day. I just reinstated as well. Lower anxiety but still the worst sleep and such an empty, low mood. I wish you some rest.

 

Tryingtosurvive - thank you so much for your kind words, they mean a lot in this situation! ♥️

Oh I know that empty/flat feeling you're talking about. It seems to be the trade off for anxiety for me as well. I should say this has improved a bit, overall, so be hopeful!!

I'm confident reinstating was the right choice for you - I've stopped believing in 'waiting out' symptoms.. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for your sleep to improve soon!! I've talked to my GP today and he was confident that my sleep will come back/balance in after some time. He also said I'd be pretty safe with updosing 1 bead per week, so I'll try that and am now taking 4 beads.

Hey if he was confident for me, he would be confident for you, too -  I'm sure your sleep will come back after a while!!

Oh, and he recommended lavender tee for me (since I find valerian too strong) as well as melatonin SPRAY - to spray on my thigh for softer absorbtion! I told him that I was reluctant to take melatonin capsules due to the cortisol peak they seem to cause. I remember you having the same effect from taking melatonin - so maybe this could be useful for you to try, too.

I hope your night was ok!?

[tryingtosurvive330]

3 hours ago, Manati said:

 

Tryingtosurvive - thank you so much for your kind words, they mean a lot in this situation! ♥️

Oh I know that empty/flat feeling you're talking about. It seems to be the trade off for anxiety for me as well. I should say this has improved a bit, overall, so be hopeful!!

I'm confident reinstating was the right choice for you - I've stopped believing in 'waiting out' symptoms.. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for your sleep to improve soon!! I've talked to my GP today and he was confident that my sleep will come back/balance in after some time. He also said I'd be pretty safe with updosing 1 bead per week, so I'll try that and am now taking 4 beads.

Hey if he was confident for me, he would be confident for you, too -  I'm sure your sleep will come back after a while!!

Oh, and he recommended lavender tee for me (since I find valerian too strong) as well as melatonin SPRAY - to spray on my thigh for softer absorbtion! I told him that I was reluctant to take melatonin capsules due to the cortisol peak they seem to cause. I remember you having the same effect from taking melatonin - so maybe this could be useful for you to try, too.

I hope your night was ok!?

Thanks Manati, maybe I will try the melatonin spray. I'm still nervous it will cause the cortisol spike. Did you try it yet? Let me know if you tolerated it well. I have taken valerian in the past too, but now I am nervous to try anything because I don't want to miss out on any sleep for for the anxiety to spike again. When I tried in the past I was taking a cocktail of things to help me sleep and have no idea what worked and what made me anxious.

[Manati]

6 hours ago, tryingtosurvive330 said:

Thanks Manati, maybe I will try the melatonin spray. I'm still nervous it will cause the cortisol spike. Did you try it yet? Let me know if you tolerated it well. I have taken valerian in the past too, but now I am nervous to try anything because I don't want to miss out on any sleep for for the anxiety to spike again. When I tried in the past I was taking a cocktail of things to help me sleep and have no idea what worked and what made me anxious.

 

I bought the spray today - I won't use it before going to bed, but after that morning cortisol spike. Maybe tomorrow night, as I took that 4th bead today and would like to observe its effect first.

I'll let you know as soon as I've tried it!

Yes - same here - I'm not eager to make any experiments regarding my chances to sleep! I'm trying lavender tea tonight - that's enough for now.

[Manati]

Trying to updose to 4 beads didn't bode well. 2 days after updosing I became agitated to an unbearable degree. I had three nightmarish days in a row feeling HYPER and strong headaches! So I am back on 3 beads again.

I have tried Ashwagandha powder supplement for sleep 2 days ago, as I read that it keeps the cortisol at bay. It worked! My cortisol rush wasn't as strong and I got some sleep!

However, having taken the same dose yesterday evening - I am still up and awake at 6am local time. Terrible, wide awake, restless night.

Said that - the Ashwagandha still seems to work regarding the cortisol spike: I'm awake, but not in the usual physical mode of stress.

I'm still desperate with the lack of sleep I'm experiencing. I'm usually very tired in the evening, but just before my body can fall asleep, my system/mind reacts with a panic reaction - shocking me back awake. It's such a torturous feeling!!

 

 

 

[Manati]

Dear tryingtosurvive,

 

I still haven't tried the melatonin spray (didn't dare to!) but after 2 nights of using I can carefully recommend Ashwagandha powder to you - it really seems to help lowering those cortisol spikes! I could sleep for a few hours in a row yesterday night!! Unfortunately not tonight - I'm still wide awake at 6am, but not with the usual, physical cortisol-stress.

[Altostrata]

On 1/12/2021 at 5:20 PM, Altostrata said:

Why not take the 3 beads in the morning?

 

Yes, morning dosing can cause the effect of the drug to be less strong at night. This can help your sleep.

 

Melatonin has no relation to the morning cortisol spike, you take melatonin at nightfall. It signals your system to start the natural sleep cycle and wears off in a few hours.

[Manati]

On 1/21/2021 at 6:19 AM, Altostrata said:

 

Yes, morning dosing can cause the effect of the drug to be less strong at night. This can help your sleep.

 

Melatonin has no relation to the morning cortisol spike, you take melatonin at nightfall. It signals your system to start the natural sleep cycle and wears off in a few hours.

 

 

Thank you Alto!

I am pretty much at breaking point right now. My WD symptoms are so bad, I'd do ANYTHING to ease them. I tried updosing to 4 beads, but got extremely agitated over the following days. Now I'm not 100% sure if this was from the additional bead or withdrawal, but I downdosed back to 3 beads.

I went to see my neurologist today (who had never herad of protracted withdrawal, he was open to read through some papers I had sent him though), and he prescribed Prozac.

Now I read through the Prozac bridge info in the forum - apparently I'm too late to 'bridge', but could it be possible for the Prozac to ease my withdrawal symptoms at this point? Would escitalopram be more promising in my case? I know you generally advise against introducing new drugs while in withdrawal, I just wonder if it has worked for some people? I'm searching the forum for answers, but you certainly have a way better overview of the general tendency!

 

I'd be so grateful for your quick input on this!!! I really don't know what to do!!