Alan1234: desperately seeking help

[ChessieCat]

I suggest that before taking your next dose of Paxil you research the side effects.

 

From a quick look at your post I cannot see any mention of you considering taking a different drug.  If you had posted about changing your drug before you took it, we possibly would have suggested a different drug.  We would definitely have told you that Paxil is one of the worst ADs because of its action and it can also be a very difficult drug to get off.  We may have suggested reinstating a small dose of venlafaxine or possibly Prozac or citalopram.

 

You state in your drug signature several other drugs made you worse.  Please state the dose of each of those drugs.

 

I suspect that may have been given too high a dose of those drugs.  Once a person experiences withdrawal symptoms they need to be careful not to take too high a dose of anything, including supplements.  This is because the nervous system becomes sensitised due to being destabilised.

[AlanC]

Hello Alan,

 

You mentioned you'd had a look for NHS services that could help, and I'd said that there was nothing there yet.

 

I should have mentioned the Bristol Tranquilliser Project. They are a charity who receive the majority (90%+) of their funding from the NHS. They were originally set up to help people withdrawing from Benzodiazapines, but they now also provide help with antidepressants and other psychiatric drugs. If you live in the Bristol area then they provide a range of services and can talk to your GP about your problems; if you don't then you can still talk to them by phone and they'll help as much as they can.

 

There's a series of short videos where one of their advisors, Ian Singleton, talks about what they do and the problems that people can suffer when coming off the various drugs on the Council For Evidence Based Psychiatry website.

 

If you live in Camden or Islington then MIND Camden have their REST project - there's another series of videos from Melanie Davis, their manager, on the same page.

[Alan1234]

Hi Chessiecat

 

they tried me in starting doses of Sertraline, Prozac and Venlafaxine (twice) and they all made me feel awful. So is Paxil btw, but I’m just desperate for something to stabilise me so I can dig in for this fight as I’m sliding so far down.

 

I tried Venlafaxine for about 3 days in July and it wiped me out and then three weeks ago 37.5mg for a week and i started to get severe hypic jerks upto 30x a night. 
 

prozac and Sertraline was started and tried for 2/3wks each in July, then Sertraline in august. Prozac was making my anxiety and sleep worse and Sertraline I couldn’t stop sweating off and felt dizzy. 
 

I guess Paxil was suggested as I’ve had it before and it’s the last throw of the dice to get stability. Other than that I was offered anti psychotic Olanzapine and that sounded more scary and damaging 

[Alan1234]

Hi Alan C

 

thank for your reply.

 

I have been in touch with the  Bristol Tranquilliser project. They were fantastic but as I don’t live local all they can offer is telephone helpline support. However since I contracted them 3wks ago, I’ve not been able to get through to them on the phones as there that busy and I sit there from when they open at 10am-4pm keep trying them when there open min-Thursday. 
ive also seen the council for evidence based physciatry site which has some info. 
 

i live in the north west of England so the mind at Camden and Bristol project can’t do anymore for me.

 

im at the hospital today as my GP has sent me for Endcrinology checks as I’m on daily hormone treatment as the Anti Depressants they have realised caused my hormone levels to be worse than a 90yr old mans. They said I never had any of a few different ones.

 

they have just taken my blood pressure which explains my anxiety and dizziness it’s was 170/66

[AlanC]

Hello Alan,

 

I'm glad you'd already found the Bristol Tranquilliser Project. It can be really good to be able to actually talk to someone who knows what you're going through. It's a shame they're the only one of their kind in the UK; we could do with equivalents in every city.

 

Hoping everything goes well at the hospital.

 

 

 

[Alan1234]

Hi Chessiecat 

 

ive started to experience screaming and roaring noises in the front part of my head today. My anxiety is worse too and I can’t keep my legs still. I know these noises aren’t real and I’m not going crazy. This made me remember while I stopped the Sertraline last year I started to get these same noises on that after just over a week so I think I had to stop it by around 2wks. So obviously the Paxil has done this to me. I know anxiety can get worse before it gets better on SSRIs so I will tell people to keep an eye on me and persevere for another week if I can. I’ve just been to the hospital as my doctor wanted me to go to see a endocrinologist as I also have very low hormones. My blood pressure was 170/66 when it used to be 120/80. I’m not overweight and always exercised until row couple of weeks ago. I have also lost 8kilos in weight with the anxiety 

[Alan1234]

1 hour ago, AlanC said:

Hello Alan,

 

I'm glad you'd already found the Bristol Tranquilliser Project. It can be really good to be able to actually talk to someone who knows what you're going through. It's a shame they're the only one of their kind in the UK; we could do with equivalents in every city.

 

Hoping everything goes well at the hospital.

 

 

 

Thanks Alan thank you for your support 

[Rosetta]

Alan,

 

I’m not upset with you.  No one here is upset with you.  We have all been through this wringer you are experiencing.  
 

We have all trusted doctors and doubted anyone who contradicted them.  It took me months to come to believe that I was doing the right thing by avoiding drugs.  I read here from July or August to December before I was sure that avoiding drugs was the key to my recovery.  I was lucky that I avoided the drugs while I made my decision.  I could have done the opposite.

 

You have akathisia.  The inability to sit still is classic akathisia, but there is so much more to it than that.  What happens with your thought processes due to akathisia is pretty awful.  I hope your doctors realize you have it.  If they do not . . . well, it’s not good for you - at all.  I had akathisia.  It is very, very important that you know that you have it.  Otherwise, you think you have gone mad.  You have not gone mad.  You are not doomed.  You will recover, Alan.  Please remember that.

 

Please see this https://missd.co  You do not have to do what Stuart did.  He did not KNOW he had akathisia.  There is no cure, but time.  New drugs make aka worse.  I nearly died by my own hand.  You have to avoid new drugs and hold on for dear life until it finally lessens to the point that you can live with it while it slowly goes away.  I’m so very sorry you have been treated this way by doctors you should be able to trust.

 

I was hoping to help you avoid further destabilization if your nervous system.  You can see that Paxil made you feel worse.  Perhaps you can think straight enough to see that what I told you was true.  Perhaps you can’t.

 

The idea that a psychoactive drug makes a person feel worse before it make him feel better is quite literally insane!!!  That is an ADVERSE REACTION.  Every time.  I am so sick of hearing that and seeing people with dysautonomia/AdWd/PAWS believing that.  It is completely and utterly wrong.  It wrong when the person is taking his first psychoactive drug, too, but it is downright dangerous when a person has akathisia.

 

Obviously, Olanzapine is not a good idea.  They are throwing things at the wall to see what will stick.  This isn’t medicine.  It’s completely insanity.  I hope they get what they deserve for doing this to people.

[Alan1234]

1 hour ago, Rosetta said:

Alan,

 

I’m not upset with you.  No one here is upset with you.  We have all been through this wringer you are experiencing.  
 

We have all trusted doctors and doubted anyone who contradicted them.  It took me months to come to believe that I was doing the right thing by avoiding drugs.  I read here from July or August to December before I was sure that avoiding drugs was the key to my recovery.  I was lucky that I avoided the drugs while I made my decision.  I could have done the opposite.

 

You have akathisia.  The inability to sit still is classic akathisia, but there is so much more to it than that.  What happens with your thought processes due to akathisia is pretty awful.  I hope your doctors realize you have it.  If they do not . . . well, it’s not good for you - at all.  I had akathisia.  It is very, very important that you know that you have it.  Otherwise, you think you have gone mad.  You have not gone mad.  You are not doomed.  You will recover, Alan.  Please remember that.

 

Please see this https://missd.co  You do not have to do what Stuart did.  He did not KNOW he had akathisia.  There is no cure, but time.  New drugs make aka worse.  I nearly died by my own hand.  You have to avoid new drugs and hold on for dear life until it finally lessens to the point that you can live with it while it slowly goes away.  I’m so very sorry you have been treated this way by doctors you should be able to trust.

 

I was hoping to help you avoid further destabilization if your nervous system.  You can see that Paxil made you feel worse.  Perhaps you can think straight enough to see that what I told you was true.  Perhaps you can’t.

 

The idea that a psychoactive drug makes a person feel worse before it make him feel better is quite literally insane!!!  That is an ADVERSE REACTION.  Every time.  I am so sick of hearing that and seeing people with dysautonomia/AdWd/PAWS believing that.  It is completely and utterly wrong.  It wrong when the person is taking his first psychoactive drug, too, but it is downright dangerous when a person has akathisia.

 

Obviously, Olanzapine is not a good idea.  They are throwing things at the wall to see what will stick.  This isn’t medicine.  It’s completely insanity.  I hope they get what they deserve for doing this to people.

Hi Rosetta 

thank you for your help and reply.

I hope you can understand why i thought/tried Paxil over the last few days. I was just looking for some stability and relief from the ongoing nightmare that has started since I came off Venlafaxine last year which I now know to be PAWS. Insomnia and anxiety have been crippling. Little did I know of this type of thing when coming off and wish I could have been informed and turn the clock back somehow. 
 

I did get some short relief mild reduction in insomnia and anxiety with the mirtazapine at 30mg but I now know from your reply at this dose it also was causing me Akathisia. Literally it was so uncomfortable after taking it in my whole body due to the restlessness that would a few hours.

I then reduced the mirtazapine in December 2020 until a few days ago to 15mg. However my insomnia and anxiety has just continued to get worse resulting in me being unable to work and cumulating in me loosing my 3rd job because of it and now it seems my marriage and relationship with my daughter. 
 

I thought if I could somehow get on a low dose of another drug and find some sort of improved stability then I could look at a long term and begin a very slow micro taper.

 

I have been very poorly with the chronic insomnia since May 2020.  The only way I’ve ever got any relief for a few days is Zopliclone and literally without it It’s impossible to know when I can get any sleep. Obviously it’s a vicious circle as no sleep drives the anxiety which is through the roof. My  blood pressure is a constant 170/66 atm from a previous 120/80. As I now know I get Akathisia it explains why things like meditation and breathing techniques just aren’t powerful enough and actually make me more angry and restless. 
 

as I’ve said I am very very scared. I understand why people have taken their own lives it’s that awful. I am definitely feeling like that as it is so bad. 
 

l just don’t know what to do, my system is so screwed I’m really not sure it can cope with a full cold turkey, or to try that with melotonin. I remember what I was like with no drugs in my system after the Venlafaxine and within 2/3 mths because of the PAWS I was very suicidal and nearly hospitalised. I don’t want this as they will then want to pump me full of drugs. 
 

or should i reinstate the mitazepine 15mg but it wasn’t helping and indeed I was getting worse anxiety and insomnia off it and also I have developed itchy red rash over my face that won’t go away. I also fear for the worsening potential on my insomnia which I now know is from the PAWS. I never had sleep trouble in my life before. I think for what the mirt is doing I should just stop but I’m just so scared as I may well feel like i did with  PAWS.

 

I don’t think I can cope if the suicidal thoughts get stronger and the possibility of anxiety potentially getting any worse. At least I’m getting some sleep around every 3 nights atm I’m scared it could get worse.

 

or my third option is give it 7days on the Paxil 10mg before stopping that if no improvement.

 

I know I have more knowledge about all this stuff than I had before and I have all your support for which I am very grateful for. But I do know other than your support I don’t have anyone and I know I need more physical support which just isn’t there. I also know the longer I have to live this living hell on my own the harder it becomes as it literally hasn’t improved I’m the worse point I’ve ever been pretty much. Somehow I wish I could even get semi well so I could work a part time job which would distract my brain and hopefully lead to me being able to have some semi type of relationship with my daughter.

 

I wish I was more religious and I had a higher power to pray to. I’m scared and I just don’t know what to do 

[Rosetta]

I do understand.  I held out hope for a very long time that I would find a treatment.  If only it were not the case that each attempt at treatment with drugs exacerbates the problem.

 

You can survive because now you know what’s happening.  You know that so many of us have survived.  That’s why this forum exists — to give you the hope you need.

 

I won’t always be here.  I’m going on a trip on Monday, and I may not check in.  I often drop away for a while, but that doesn’t mean I don’t care.  I’m still healing, and I have a lot of responsibilities.  So, don’t think it means anything if I don’t respond.  Reach out to others here.  Read the success stories.  See that you are not alone.  This has happened to millions of people.  Shocking, but true.

[Alan1234]

23 minutes ago, Rosetta said:

I do understand.  I held out hope for a very long time that I would find a treatment.  If only it were not the case that each attempt at treatment with drugs exacerbates the problem.

 

You can survive because now you know what’s happening.  You know that so many of us have survived.  That’s why this forum exists — to give you the hope you need.

 

I won’t always be here.  I’m going on a trip on Monday, and I may not check in.  I often drop away for a while, but that doesn’t mean I don’t care.  I’m still healing, and I have a lot of responsibilities.  So, don’t think it means anything if I don’t respond.  Reach out to others here.  Read the success stories.  See that you are not alone.  This has happened to millions of people.  Shocking, but true.

Ok thank you Rosetta enjoy your break 

[Alan1234]

I’m 5 days on 10mg paraxotine and it’s made the insomnia and anxiety worse. 
 

can I just CT this and is their anypont jumping back on the mitazapine 15mg and starting a taper? I was on the mitazepine from around sep/Oct 2020 until last week where I did an abrupt switch to paraxotine.

 

this whole mess started after non informed Venlafaxine taper March 2020 and I’m now in a horrible severe prolonged withdrawal it seems 

[Rosetta]

Alan,

Fifteen mg of mirtazapine might be too much now that your system is so destabilized.  I don’t know.  What happens is that we become so sensitized that less is better.  I hope a Moderator can tell you? But if I were you, I would not take more than 5.  Do you have 10 mg pills that you can split?  

I would stop the Paxil if I were you, definitely.  Do not start a taper from mirt right away.  You need to let your system calm down first.  It may take a while.  You won’t feel better right away.  You will have waves when you feel worse.  Then you will feel a bit better, but you may not realize that you were feeling better until the next wave starts.  It’s very confusing. It’s a process.

 

I would stop Paxil and wait to see what a Moderator says about how much mirt to take. 
 

[ChessieCat]

Yes, I have previously said that if you want to stop the paroxetine to stop it.

 

As Rosetta suggested, returning to 15mg mirtazapine might be too much.  If you do decide to take mirtazapine I think it would be a good idea to start with a really low dose.  It is generally possible to split a tablet into sections from the top, like cutting a cake.  You might also be able to slice it horizontally like you would do with a cake to put a filling in the middle.

 

My thinking is to start with as low a dose of mirtazapine as you can accurately get to test to see how you react to it.  If that goes okay you could either continue at that dose or increase by a small amount more.

 

It may be possible to crush the tablet up and divide it evenly into amounts.

 

 

[Alan1234]

Hi Rosetta 

Hi ChessieCat

 

I was having massive waves on 15mg of mirt that was why I desperately tried the Paxil. The only time I got out of a wave was when I was on 30mg but then the Akathisia started so I had to drop back to 15mg then the waves of severe anxiety and insomnia restarted. The Paxil is already giving me Akathisia at 10mg. 
 

I have 15mg tablets of mirt I can chop them into quarters. 
 

im not sure how I will know what dose to take as I was in a big horrible wave on it. So how will I know if it’s helping my system stabilise as I’m getting no relief from anything?

 My mood. anxiety, and skin itching and facial rash  was worse on mirt than this Paxil, just Akathisia much worse on Paxil 

 

or do I just stop everything 

 

thank you for your help 

[ChessieCat]

You have been taking mirtazapine since August 2020 and you have just stopped it CT.  And you have just been taking Paxil for 5 days.  Please update your drug signature.

 

Please read Post #1 of this topic which mentions that taking a small dose can help with withdrawal symptoms but may not cause as bad side effects because they are generally dose related:

 

About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms

 

You have cold turkeyed mirtazapine and then been on Paxil for 5 days.  We have no idea what this has done to your nervous system.  The idea of starting with a tiny dose is to test to see what it does, so instead of taking a larger dose and possibly having a very bad reaction, taking a tiny dose if you have a bad reaction it will hopefully only be a minor reaction.  If after testing a tiny dose and it doesn't make things worse you could always increase by a little bit more.  It is better to start with a small amount and increase it gradually than to risk taking too much.

 

It takes about 4 days for dose to get to full strength in the blood and a bit longer for it to register in the brain.

 

 

 

 

[Alan1234]

Hi ChessieCat 

 

On the about reinstatement to reduce withdrawal symptoms link it says-

 

If you have symptoms of hyper-reactivity or alerting (anxiety, panic, sleeplessness), you may be too sensitive for reinstatement. If you want to try it anyway, you might wish to try reinstating at a very low dosage, such as 0.5m-1mg if you had been taking 20mg Celexa, for example.

 

ive had severe anxiety, panic and chronic sleeplessness (through anxiety) and my blood pressure is now 170/65 where as it was 120/80 on Venlafaxine. my symptoms have just continued to get worse other than for a brief time on 30mg of Mirt.

 

im asking how long is a piece of string aren’t I? Basically is it a flip of a coin now to either go CT or reinstate low dose Mirt ?

[ChessieCat]

It is up to a member to make the decision about what to do.  All I can do is provide you with the information and suggestions so you can make an informed decision.

 

This is stated in my signature:

 

PLEASE NOTE:  I am not a medical professional.  I provide information and make suggestions.

[ChessieCat]

On 3/27/2021 at 8:51 PM, ChessieCat said:

From a quick look at your post I cannot see any mention of you considering taking a different drug.  If you had posted about changing your drug before you took it, we possibly would have suggested a different drug.  We would definitely have told you that Paxil is one of the worst ADs because of its action and it can also be a very difficult drug to get off.  We may have suggested reinstating a small dose of venlafaxine or possibly Prozac or citalopram.

 

[Alan1234]

2 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

 

I wasn’t considering taking Paxil but I had to go to a Psychiatrist appointment and as I am so Ill that’s the last thing he suggested. I’m going through this in my own so I had no support there.

 

I have previously tried reinstatement of Venlafaxine but it made me worse (although I didn’t know about dosing and the damage to my nervous system then) I tried both 75mg and 37.5mg doses and both made me have multiple frequent mini seizures at night. I also tried Prozac back around a 5/6wks after coming off Venlafaxine in 2020 and that made me ill too. (I think I have put both of these in my signature)

 

 Again now with my new knowledge had the dose been a lot smaller it may have been affective. 
 

I take your last point about not being able to give advice. 
 

is it a possible suggestion be of more benefit to start a micro dose of Prozac rather than Mirt?

 

im really sorry but I’m very distressed and when you mention that it would of been suggested to try Venlafaxine, Prozac, Citalopram,  I really have no idea what to do for the best other than pray. My symptoms are that severe I’m too anxious to sleep or leave the house.  I wasn’t aware of the power of these drugs and about prolonged withdrawal syndromes and have only found all your great help once I’m in this hole.

 

im aware now that my CNS is in a mess and having listened to conventional Doctors it’s just throw as many drugs as possible at me (now I realise in the wrong doses) and it appears the damage has been done. 
 

my gut tells me I should just stop them all, but I’m so ill now if a big depression then kicks in I’m really scared for my life.

I’ve been on these drugs for over 20yrs and had 3major depressions whilst on them, I might not be capable of not needing them genetically as I’ve taken them in the first place as I’m someone who is susceptible to mental health problems. 
 

At the moment I’m not really medicated (I’m constantly told of Doctors I’m not taking a therapeutic dose) so that’s why I’m ill. So I’m not really on the drugs and I’m not really off them but my body is caught in this withdraw 
 

im sorry I’m asking so many questions but you guys I now realise are the only ones who have the experience in all this with the hundreds and thousands of people that reach out to you

[ChessieCat]

1 minute ago, Alan1234 said:

I might not be capable of not needing them genetically as I’ve taken them in the first place as I’m someone who is susceptible to mental health problems. 

 

This is chemical imbalance which was a theory which was debunked at least 20 years ago.

 

Please read:

 

again-chemical-imbalance-is-a-myth-stop-the-lies-please

 

3 minutes ago, Alan1234 said:

is it a possible suggestion be of more benefit to start a micro dose of Prozac rather than Mirt?

 

Nobody is able to say whether is would be more beneficial.

 

Please note that Prozac has a very long half life and can take 10-14 days to get to full strength.

 

See Post #1 of this topic which explains how Prozac works:

 

tips-for-tapering-off-prozac-fluoxetine

 

If you did start Prozac, it would definitely be better to start with a tiny dose, for the same reasons as I explained about reinstating mirtazapine.

 

9 minutes ago, Alan1234 said:

I also tried Prozac back around a 5/6wks after coming off Venlafaxine in 2020 and that made me ill too.

 

Yes it is in your signature and I think I have already asked you to add the doses of the drugs you tried.

 

Venlafaxine is an SNRI whereas Prozac is an SSRI.  It is difficult to know whether your reaction to Prozac was a real reaction to Prozac, too high a dose was given (which from what I have seen here at SA I suspect that may be the case) and/or the Prozac did not cover the withdrawal from venlafaxine.  And if you tried other drugs before Prozac it might have been that too.  When a person chops and changes drugs it can be very difficult to work out what is going on.  And in your case, it is nearly 1 year ago so that makes it even harder.

 

14 minutes ago, Alan1234 said:

I’m constantly told of Doctors I’m not taking a therapeutic dose

 

Therapeutic dose is an arbitrary term which pharmaceutical companies decide on to make their standard doses.  SA prefers to work with lowest effective dose.  The reason why SA exists is because not many medical professionals understand psychiatric drugs, withdrawal, adverse reactions etc.

 

From the Tips for Tapering Mirtazapine topic:

 

 

[Alan1234]

27 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

 

This is chemical imbalance which was a theory which was debunked at least 20 years ago.

 

Please read:

 

again-chemical-imbalance-is-a-myth-stop-the-lies-please

 

 

Nobody is able to say whether is would be more beneficial.

 

Please note that Prozac has a very long half life and can take 10-14 days to get to full strength.

 

See Post #1 of this topic which explains how Prozac works:

 

tips-for-tapering-off-prozac-fluoxetine

 

If you did start Prozac, it would definitely be better to start with a tiny dose, for the same reasons as I explained about reinstating mirtazapine.

 

 

Yes it is in your signature and I think I have already asked you to add the doses of the drugs you tried.

 

Venlafaxine is an SNRI whereas Prozac is an SSRI.  It is difficult to know whether your reaction to Prozac was a real reaction to Prozac, too high a dose was given (which from what I have seen here at SA I suspect that may be the case) and/or the Prozac did not cover the withdrawal from venlafaxine.  And if you tried other drugs before Prozac it might have been that too.  When a person chops and changes drugs it can be very difficult to work out what is going on.  And in your case, it is nearly 1 year ago so that makes it even harder.

 

 

Therapeutic dose is an arbitrary term which pharmaceutical companies decide on to make their standard doses.  SA prefers to work with lowest effective dose.  The reason why SA exists is because not many medical professionals understand psychiatric drugs, withdrawal, adverse reactions etc.

 

From the Tips for Tapering Mirtazapine topic:

 

 

I realise there is no such thing as the chemical imbalance theory but physiologically some people are still a lot more sensitive and prone to anxiety and depression than others that’s the point I was making. If these drugs make the brain compensate by getting rid of receptors then it’s a double whammy 

[Rosetta]

You have been here less than two weeks.  It’s no surprise that you have followed doctors’ advice.  How many people would do what non-doctors on a website tell them to do instead of what a doctor tells them to do?  Not many.  It takes a while to

realize that we know what is happening to you.
 

The idea that a doctor would be so ignorant and give you a dose of a drug that would almost certainly hurt you is very, very hard to accept.  The doctor may even think he is giving you a “low dose,” or the “lowest therapeutic dose.”  

Assuming there is such a thing as a therapeutic dose in the first place, and that it is the same for all people, such doses are detrimental to people after withdrawal rears it’s ugly head.  Why don’t doctors know this?!  Because they are told by the pharmaceutical companies that ADs are not addictive.  
 

Most doctors don’t know anything about addiction medicine, and most of them don’t care about “addicts,” quite frankly.  Many don’t even care about addicts that they themselves created.  It’s disgusting.  They deny that ADs can cause addiction because there is no craving.  As it turns out, cravings have nothing to do with whether people develop addiction withdrawal symptoms.  They have nothing to do with whether people develop long term withdrawal, akathisia, or any other debilitating conditions.

 

What is done is done.  Some people need to see for themselves that the doctor’s advice keeps them feeling ill.  Only then does anything we say here make sense.  

We can’t tell you what risks are of trying to reinstate mirtazapine.  It might help you a lot or it might not work out.  The small dose, as ChessieCat said, is a way of testing your sensitivity.  You would post a daily log of your symptoms right after you took mirt and continuing through out the day with a time of day next to each symptom.  If you had an adverse reaction, it would show up in the log and you could either reduce the dose or quit.
 

If I were you, that would be the only thing I would try to do.  Whether I would try it at this point, I don’t know.  You have been through a lot of drugs recently, and you might get akathisia again if you tried it.  Has the aka gone away?  If you got aka again and stopped the experiment the aka might go away and it might not.  If you still have aka, it might go away with the mirt or it might continue.  If only we knew.  This is a risk only you can decide to take.  It’s risky either way.
 

IF I tried it, I would crush the 15 mg pill and take a tiny amount.  I would try to get about 1 mg.  Did you order the Gemini scale that Gridley recommended by chance?  It’s important that you take the same dose every day.  
 

Many people like to dissolve the pill in water.  I hope that’s an option for mirt.  After the pill dissolves, they mix the solution up to get the drug well distributed throughout the water and immediately pull the dose out.  People use some kind of a syringe without a needle to get the dose out of the container.  They keep the rest of the liquid in the refrigerator.  So, you would dissolve the pill in 60 ml (about 4 tablespoons) of water and try to take 4 milliliters of that.
 

I never had this choice to make because I had been off Zoloft too long before I found SA.  I often wished I had the option, but who knows if it would have helped me.

 

 

 

[Altostrata]

@Alan1234, I am very confused about your history. It appears that after many years of antidepressants, you went off venlafaxine in May 2020, got withdrawal from that, and were treated with various drugs that either did nothing or produced bad reactions.

 

Did mirtazapine ever help? As @ChessieCat pointed out, you were taking it for a substantial amount of time. By dropping it and switching to Paxil, you effectively cold-turkeyed mirtazapine.

 

We would never suggest a switch to Paxil, an antidepressant that's notorious for adverse effects and a terrible withdrawal syndrome. It sounds like the psychiatrist you spoke to is not aware of withdrawal syndrome at all.

[Alan1234]

9 hours ago, Rosetta said:

You have been here less than two weeks.  It’s no surprise that you have followed doctors’ advice.  How many people would do what non-doctors on a website tell them to do instead of what a doctor tells them to do?  Not many.  It takes a while to

realize that we know what is happening to you.
 

The idea that a doctor would be so ignorant and give you a dose of a drug that would almost certainly hurt you is very, very hard to accept.  The doctor may even think he is giving you a “low dose,” or the “lowest therapeutic dose.”  

Assuming there is such a thing as a therapeutic dose in the first place, and that it is the same for all people, such doses are detrimental to people after withdrawal rears it’s ugly head.  Why don’t doctors know this?!  Because they are told by the pharmaceutical companies that ADs are not addictive.  
 

Most doctors don’t know anything about addiction medicine, and most of them don’t care about “addicts,” quite frankly.  Many don’t even care about addicts that they themselves created.  It’s disgusting.  They deny that ADs can cause addiction because there is no craving.  As it turns out, cravings have nothing to do with whether people develop addiction withdrawal symptoms.  They have nothing to do with whether people develop long term withdrawal, akathisia, or any other debilitating conditions.

 

What is done is done.  Some people need to see for themselves that the doctor’s advice keeps them feeling ill.  Only then does anything we say here make sense.  

We can’t tell you what risks are of trying to reinstate mirtazapine.  It might help you a lot or it might not work out.  The small dose, as ChessieCat said, is a way of testing your sensitivity.  You would post a daily log of your symptoms right after you took mirt and continuing through out the day with a time of day next to each symptom.  If you had an adverse reaction, it would show up in the log and you could either reduce the dose or quit.
 

If I were you, that would be the only thing I would try to do.  Whether I would try it at this point, I don’t know.  You have been through a lot of drugs recently, and you might get akathisia again if you tried it.  Has the aka gone away?  If you got aka again and stopped the experiment the aka might go away and it might not.  If you still have aka, it might go away with the mirt or it might continue.  If only we knew.  This is a risk only you can decide to take.  It’s risky either way.
 

IF I tried it, I would crush the 15 mg pill and take a tiny amount.  I would try to get about 1 mg.  Did you order the Gemini scale that Gridley recommended by chance?  It’s important that you take the same dose every day.  
 

Many people like to dissolve the pill in water.  I hope that’s an option for mirt.  After the pill dissolves, they mix the solution up to get the drug well distributed throughout the water and immediately pull the dose out.  People use some kind of a syringe without a needle to get the dose out of the container.  They keep the rest of the liquid in the refrigerator.  So, you would dissolve the pill in 60 ml (about 4 tablespoons) of water and try to take 4 milliliters of that.
 

I never had this choice to make because I had been off Zoloft too long before I found SA.  I often wished I had the option, but who knows if it would have helped me.

 

 

 

Hi Rosetta 

Those are great and wise words thank you

i still have the aka but it’s mild to moderate. I had it for years while on the medication and had no idea what it was. My legs used to tremble under the table all the time. 
 

I took approx 3.75mg of mirt last night as I could only find 30mg tablets and I had to chop them up.

 

I had less anxiety by about 30% this morning and managed to get around 3hrs sleep. My aka is usually worse in the morning. I have the usual anxiety and restless in my legs it feels like my calf’s are in spasm/cramp all the time with constant volleys of nerve pain/restlessness down the back of them.

 

[Alan1234]

4 hours ago, Altostrata said:

@Alan1234, I am very confused about your history. It appears that after many years of antidepressants, you went off venlafaxine in May 2020, got withdrawal from that, and were treated with various drugs that either did nothing or produced bad reactions.

 

Did mirtazapine ever help? As @ChessieCat pointed out, you were taking it for a substantial amount of time. By dropping it and switching to Paxil, you effectively cold-turkeyed mirtazapine.

 

We would never suggest a switch to Paxil, an antidepressant that's notorious for adverse effects and a terrible withdrawal syndrome. It sounds like the psychiatrist you spoke to is not aware of withdrawal syndrome at all.

Hi  Altostrata 

 

yes mirtazapine helped after around 3wks. When I had been on 30mg for two weeks. I had daily suicidal thoughts, I was constantly crying, my anxiety and insomnia were terrible. I couldn’t leave the house due to the anxiety before it. On it I managed to get out of the house and even got a part time job for 4wks. 
 

after being on 30mg at around 3/4 weeks I started to develop immediate Akathisia and hypnic jerks after an hour of taking the tablet when I was in bed trying to go to sleep. My whole body was restless with whole body nerve pains only tolerable when I had to move about. 
 

when I reduced the dose back down to 15mg the Aki reduced/ slowly went, however after around another 2/3wks my mood was getting worse, my insomnia was terrible again (no sleep at all for 2/3nights) and my anxiety was increased again but now it was constant. I also noticed that I was incredibly fatigued every afternoon but if I tried to sleep due to anxiety and restlessness i couldn’t. The anxiety then has just built and built into the evenings and now my sleep is fairly non existent. I might get 2/4hours on two nights out of seven a week. 
 

that is how I got so desperate and spoke to the doctor who gave me trazadone for a week (inc Anxiety/Aka/hipnic jerks) then last week wanted me to take diazepam, Zopliclone, Paxil. 
 

I knew I can’t go on like this anymore as I’ve said before at times I’m feared for my life so I desperately tried the Paxil but the anxiety, aka increased 

[Alan1234]

I do worry tremendously that my mood will now be low and dark and the constant crying will start again now I’m on such a small dose of mirtazapine. The mirt did with this, it just very completely agreed with me as I still had very high anxiety and insomnia and the aka. 
 

But now I’ve realise that I don’t think any drug will agree with I’m in chronic Paxil and Venlafaxine withdrawal. My aim is to get to a level of stability where I can function then start a gradual taper and be off these horrible drugs. 
 

my memory is terrible but now I think that i may have been giving Paxil even in 1994 to me. They certainly have given it to me on and off before 2003/4. I never realised all the restlessness and severe sweating should of been a sign of alarm and was told these side affects were fine. I can’t believe how these drugs have stole and destroyed my life and my family around me. I do so wish to have a recovery and freedom from them and hopefully have the time for my family to see the real me at last 

[ChessieCat]

Post #1 of this topic provides a link to make your own liquid:

 

tips-for-tapering-off-mirtazapine-remeron

 

Generally we suggest doing a cross over but because you have been off it for about a week and are only taking a small dose it may not be necessary to do that.

[Alan1234]

19 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

Post #1 of this topic provides a link to make your own liquid:

 

tips-for-tapering-off-mirtazapine-remeron

 

Generally we suggest doing a cross over but because you have been off it for about a week and are only taking a small dose it may not be necessary to do that.

would it be wise to taper back up to or close to around 15mg to aim to create Stability before a tapering down. I wasn’t really stable on 15mg meaning how much anxiety and insomnia I had but I’m concerned about my mood dropping off further if my body levels get to low again 

[Rosetta]

You may not need 15 mg.  People start with a tiny amount.  As they post daily logs, if all goes well, the Mods sometimes recommend trying a little more.  Updosing is risky, too.  It’s easy to get too much.  Simply making the change too soon has consequences, as well.  
 

I have seen people take very small amounts, stabilize on those and then taper off of it.  If you updose at all, it may be only once or twice.  The dose you were taking (15 mg) has no relevance now that your body is hyper -sensitive. That may be hard to understand, but it’s true.  People who have very mild WD symptoms and reinstate immediately often get close to their original dose.  The rest of us who have doctors who changed our meds and gave us Traz or Paxil may never tolerate more than very, very small amounts of the “original” drug again.

 

For you, the “original” drug is Mirt.  It would have been Ven if you hadn’t been deprescribed Ven and put on Mirt for long time.  That’s what happened to me when my child was born— an immediate cold switch.  Updose after updose after updose, then Xanax.  There was never even the fleeting thought in those doctors’ minds that I was being harmed.  A doctor tried to triple the Xanax, and I quit everything.  Then, I was given Traz.  I thought I was in Hell before Traz. Ha!

 

A lot of people take Paxil for the first time and immediately experience dysautonomia, a destabilization or the nervous system.  It’s the same disorder as PAWS.  It’s the same disorder as WD.  It’s all the same thing.  There’s no difference between an adverse reaction causing PAWS and a CT from 20 years of Ven.  They both cause the nervous system to malfunction and become hyper-sensitive to drugs, foods, alcohol, caffeine—all kinds of things.  There are gradations of dysautonomia.  There are severe cases which show symptoms such as akathisia.  Everyone has different symptoms that are dominant.  Your experience of this syndrome will not look exactly like anyone else’s.  The timing will be different, too.  The severity will be different.   It’s very hard to compare with one person’s WD with another’s. 
 

I remember slamming my head against a wooden fence after taking Paxil for a few days.  I was about 28-29.  I had developed severe insomnia just from taking Paxil.  I quit, but I was never the same again because the doctors kept giving me different drugs for 20-some years.  You can heal.  You can be whole again.  You don’t have to waste your life like I did by believing the lie that you need psychiatric drugs to be normal.

 

Alan, you are going to feel depressed.  It’s a symptom of dysautonomia.  You will feel anxious.  Being more anxious in the morning and less in the evening is very, very common with this syndrome.  (It is because, every morning, your body produces cortisol to wake you up.  It’s your circadian rhythm.  The sunlight is involved.  You will be sensitive to the hormones your own body makes and uses.) You need to plan your day around that.  Stay away from others in the morning.  Symptoms do not mean you need more Mirt.  It’s not like taking a second Tylenol pill if the headache remains strong.  You are going to have to wait for weeks for your nervous system to calm down.  There is no quick fix.
 

Get a sleep mask.  Wear it every night.  It will help you be more calm after the sun starts to rise — maybe not immediately, but as you heal, it will help you get back to normal.  Someday, it will help you sleep longer.

 

Hang in there.  You can beat this. 
 

Rosetta

 

[Alan1234]

4 hours ago, Rosetta said:

You may not need 15 mg.  People start with a tiny amount.  As they post daily logs, if all goes well, the Mods sometimes recommend trying a little more.  Updosing is risky, too.  It’s easy to get too much.  Simply making the change too soon has consequences, as well.  
 

I have seen people take very small amounts, stabilize on those and then taper off of it.  If you updose at all, it may be only once or twice.  The dose you were taking (15 mg) has no relevance now that your body is hyper -sensitive. That may be hard to understand, but it’s true.  People who have very mild WD symptoms and reinstate immediately often get close to their original dose.  The rest of us who have doctors who changed our meds and gave us Traz or Paxil may never tolerate more than very, very small amounts of the “original” drug again.

 

For you, the “original” drug is Mirt.  It would have been Ven if you hadn’t been deprescribed Ven and put on Mirt for long time.  That’s what happened to me when my child was born— an immediate cold switch.  Updose after updose after updose, then Xanax.  There was never even the fleeting thought in those doctors’ minds that I was being harmed.  A doctor tried to triple the Xanax, and I quit everything.  Then, I was given Traz.  I thought I was in Hell before Traz. Ha!

 

A lot of people take Paxil for the first time and immediately experience dysautonomia, a destabilization or the nervous system.  It’s the same disorder as PAWS.  It’s the same disorder as WD.  It’s all the same thing.  There’s no difference between an adverse reaction causing PAWS and a CT from 20 years of Ven.  They both cause the nervous system to malfunction and become hyper-sensitive to drugs, foods, alcohol, caffeine—all kinds of things.  There are gradations of dysautonomia.  There are severe cases which show symptoms such as akathisia.  Everyone has different symptoms that are dominant.  Your experience of this syndrome will not look exactly like anyone else’s.  The timing will be different, too.  The severity will be different.   It’s very hard to compare with one person’s WD with another’s. 
 

I remember slamming my head against a wooden fence after taking Paxil for a few days.  I was about 28-29.  I had developed severe insomnia just from taking Paxil.  I quit, but I was never the same again because the doctors kept giving me different drugs for 20-some years.  You can heal.  You can be whole again.  You don’t have to waste your life like I did by believing the lie that you need psychiatric drugs to be normal.

 

Alan, you are going to feel depressed.  It’s a symptom of dysautonomia.  You will feel anxious.  Being more anxious in the morning and less in the evening is very, very common with this syndrome.  (It is because, every morning, your body produces cortisol to wake you up.  It’s your circadian rhythm.  The sunlight is involved.  You will be sensitive to the hormones your own body makes and uses.) You need to plan your day around that.  Stay away from others in the morning.  Symptoms do not mean you need more Mirt.  It’s not like taking a second Tylenol pill if the headache remains strong.  You are going to have to wait for weeks for your nervous system to calm down.  There is no quick fix.
 

Get a sleep mask.  Wear it every night.  It will help you be more calm after the sun starts to rise — maybe not immediately, but as you heal, it will help you get back to normal.  Someday, it will help you sleep longer.

 

Hang in there.  You can beat this. 
 

Rosetta

 

Thank you Rosetta your thoughts and words have meant so much today and are powerful. You have given me the inspiration and strength today I am determined to see this through. I will take each day at a time and will start this journey now with the knowledge that i didn’t have. I will expect it to be a rocky road but from now on i will try using positive affirmations and keep reading the success stories and hopefully one day I will be healed and I can help others. 
 

thank you 

[Rosetta]

The key is to distract yourself if calming yourself doesn’t work.  There was, for me, a point in anxiety that distraction was the only way.  I think that’s the point where anxiety and akathisia meet.  The best non-drug coping skill for me was distraction.  Books, Tv, movies, Netflix. Epsom salt baths are good if you have a book or can put the iPad on Netflix.  

Sitting alone with my thoughts was horrible.  I needed distraction.  Thinking about what’s happening and what you should do about it is not good.  Tell people you are doing that or they will get very mad at you, but don’t actually do it.  Tell them you are trying their suggestions, thank them for their suggestions, but this is not something you can think your way through.  You can white-knuckle, grit your teeth, and pray.  You can’t fix it.  Your body and brain have a miraculous ability to fix it for you.  It’s a very slow, miserable process.

 

You are going have all kinds of odd symptoms of 100 different diseases.  That the body trying to compensate for the chaos in it’s system.  I had numbness, tingling, pain, aches, but tummy troubles, headaches, and on and on.  I had every psychological symptom.  I thought I had a brain tumor.  I thought I would never get better.  I did and you will.

 

You will blame yourself, but remember that none of us are to blame for trusting our doctors.  They did this.  They did this to you, your wife, your child, and your mother.  You can’t say that to anyone, but it’s true.  It’s like you were hit by a truck, have brain damage, and now need to heal.  No one gets to tell you how to heal if it means putting your life in the hands of doctors again.  Would you walk out in front of another truck?!  A truck driven by a person who has every reasons to know you are standing there, but stubbornly refuses to see you?  No.  
 

Your responsibility to your daughter is to get well.  You have no control over how fast that will happen.  All you know is that if you take the doctor’s advice it will never happen.  That said, there are doctors in the UK who know about this syndrome, and are working to educate other doctors.  This problem has been in the news.  The NYT ran an article about SA. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2018/04/07/health/antidepressants-withdrawal-prozac-cymbalta.amp.html
 

I’m off on my trip now.  Good luck.  Make sure you control yourself enough to stay out of the hospital.  They will give more drugs and make you sicker.  “Don’t get caught.”  Absurd, isn’t it?  Bye.

 

Rosetta

[ChessieCat]

Rosetta is giving you some excellent suggestions.

 

She mentioned the success stories.  Here is the link:

 

success-stories-recovery-from-withdrawal

 

I have been doing a taper following SA's protocol and after the initial issues I had which is when I found SA I have only experienced mild withdrawal symptoms over the years I have been tapering.  However, even with a slow taper it has not been a "walk in the park" (ie easy) and I have been using non drug techniques, some examples: relaxtion, distraction, calming, self talk, concentrated & controlled deep breathing, mindfulness, acceptance. CBT, learning general life coping skills.

 

SA strongly encourages members to learn and use them:

 

Non-drug techniques

 

And sometimes all we can do it get through it moment by moment.

 

The following has been written to a member regarding anxiety, but it it helpful for other things too:

 

  

On 4/9/2020 at 10:31 AM, brassmonkey said:

 

AAF: Acknowledge, Accept, Float.  It's what you have to do when nothing else works, and can be a very powerful tool in coping with anxiety.  The neuroemotional anxiety many of us feel during WD is directly caused by the drugs and their chemical reactions in the brain.  Making it so there is nothing we can do about them.  They won't respond to other drugs, relaxation techniques and the like.  They do, however, react very well to being ignored.  That's the concept behind AAF.  Acknowledge, get to know the feeling involved, explore them.  Accept, These feelings are a part of you and they aren't going anywhere fast. Float, let the feeling float off as you get on with your life as best as you can.  It's a well documented fact that the more you feed in to anxiety the worse it gets.  What starts as generalized neuroemotinal anxiety can be easily blown into a full fledged panic attack just by thinking about it.

 

I often liken it to an unwanted house guest.  At first you talk to them, have conversations, communicate with them.  After a while you figure out that they aren't leaving and there is nothing you can do to get rid of them.  So you go on about your day, working around them until they get bored and leave.

 

It can take some practice, but AAF really does work.  I hope you give it a try."

 

 

[Alan1234]

Hi Rosetta/Chessiecat

 

I hope you have a great time on your trip Rosetta. Thank you for the great advice. 
 

I had awful anxiety yesterday but now I know this is normal and just part of the process. I took 3.75mg of Mirt last night. I haven’t slept a wink as per fairly normal. The Akathisia in my legs steadily built up over the early hours of the morning but no worse and probably abit better than it was. I had a few mini jerks/seizures last night but now I know it’s because of the drugs and I have faith it will get better it wasn’t as scary and I was better able to manage my thoughts about it. 
 

Today my brain feels seasick/vertigo and it’s spinning inside my skull. I am going to make myself do some exercise today then see how this new symptom of seasickness goes. 
 

Is this a sign I need to updose? Or do you sit and wait until it’s completely unbearable before doing that? What are the indications to updose? 
 

I think now In my situation I just need to cling on and ride out whatever happens and comes my way 

[ChessieCat]

On 3/29/2021 at 7:32 PM, ChessieCat said:

It takes about 4 days for dose to get to full strength in the blood and a bit longer for it to register in the brain.

 

You will need to be patient.  The brain likes consistency.  It is not good to make doses changes too close together.

 

4 minutes ago, Alan1234 said:

I am going to make myself do some exercise today

 

I suggest that you only do gentle exercise and not for too long.  Half an hour gentle walking might be better at this stage.

[Altostrata]

Mirtazapine has a long half-life so will take closer to 2 weeks to ramp up to full effect. Please let us know how you're doing.