Ventus: intro

[Hanna72]

Yes it has scared me too @Ventus But we will not be defeated 💪

[Ventus]

What is the success for reinstatement for someone as far out as me 2.5 months. So far nothing bad or good has happened but it hasn't even been a week yet.

 

If I had known it would get this bad I would have just stayed on the antidepressant

[getofflex]

Reinstatement is a crap shoot, so I can't tell you.  Everyone reacts differently.  Did you read the 2 reinstatement links I gave you?

[Ventus]

Yeah and that's basically what I got from it. You guys don't know. Anyway  the withdrawal symptoms have grown too much for me so I am gonna keep it up. And not try to get off the meds until I feel safe

[Ventus]

About 6 days on the 10mg. Not much to report for the insomina but with 4 hours of sleep every night instead of 2 I have steadily improved. And my heart rate hasnt hit the danager zone in a few days.. Still weak though.  The 10mg is giving me a slight annoying tinnitus.  Do you guys think I would still get some benefits if I try for lower? Like 5 or 2.5 mg?

 

I am debating just sticking to it because I found a psychiatrist willing to help me taper over a 12 month period after I stabilize in a few months

[Ventus]

The oddest thing happened this morning and I was curious if others have experienced it. I managed to get 6 hours of sleep with an editable but I woke up with a strange jolt in my head in the morning. 

[getofflex]

Yes, I have experienced this many times.  Not exactly a jolt to the head, but I wake up from a deep sleep and I'm instantly wide awake, as if someone suddenly flipped a switch in my brain.  What we are experiencing is probably the morning cortisol spike.  Cortisol is a chemical that activates our nervous system, and it goes up in the early hours of the morning, and then gradually decreases as the day goes on.  When our nervous systems are sensitized by withdrawal, I believe, these things have a bigger effect on us. 

[Ventus]

Thanks. I am impatiently waiting for the insomina to pass. The only other withdrawal symptom I have is burning feet and that barely registers. So far the only thing the reinstatement has helped with is to lower my heart rate.

[getofflex]

@Ventus I'm glad to hear that the reinstatement has helped something.  Give it time - it can take several weeks to a couple of months for the reinstatement to reach it's full effect.  Six hours of sleep is actually pretty good for those of us in psych drug withdrawal.  A reinstatement probably won't take away all the symptoms, but it will hopefully help take the edge off.  If mild insomnia and mild burning feet are your only symptoms, then it sounds like you are doing quite well.  

[Ventus]

Afraid it's alot more then mild insomnia.  Without any sleep aids I get zero sleep. Ambien and the editables are the only reason I am not dead right now. Melatonin and everything else on suggested didn't make a dent. After 1 week without sleep I gave in. That's why I reinstated as well.

[getofflex]

Ah, I didn't realize you were using sleep aids and editables.  I didn't see that in your drug sig until just now. I'm glad reinstating helped.  

[Ventus]

Yeah I really wish the insomnia would go away though or at least reduce so I am naturally get some sleep every night. I dunno how much longer I can live with 3 to 6 hours a night. I know I will be addicted to the ambien soon but thats a future problem. 

[getofflex]

No worries. You are doing the best you can right now.  It if were me, I would stay on my current drug regimen for a long time - like 6 to 12 months.  Let your nervous system settle down and have some stability.  Then, when I felt stable I would very slowly and carefully wean off the Citalopram.  Then, a while after that, I would wean off the Ambien very slowly and carefully too.  

[Ventus]

True. I may have been a bit too hopeful and in August I have a appointment with a psychiatrist who promised to help me slowly taper the citalopram 

[getofflex]

We suggest tapering off your more activating drugs first, so that you don't lose your sleep.  That's why I suggested getting off citalopram first.  This link explains more. 

 

Which Drug to Taper First

[Ventus]

Oh I definitely agree. I only started taking the ambien because of withdrawal insomnia. If it helps me through the citalopram withdrawal all the better. Question though I also got a far more dangerous drug clonazepam. I don't want to use it often because I read of the horrible benzo withdrawal but boy does it get me to sleep and keep me there.

[Ventus]

Also as I side note I have been trying lots of supplements since I couldn't sleep none do anything good or bad, is that what you guys find? I just tried an Epsom salt bath and it felt like well a bath. The fish oil i realize I have been taking less then you guys recommend so I upped it. But overall I don't feel triggered in a good or bad way by anything. If anything stuff like alchohol and editables have helped me through this. 

[getofflex]

12 hours ago, Ventus said:

Also as I side note I have been trying lots of supplements since I couldn't sleep none do anything good or bad, is that what you guys find?

We all have different reactions to supplements.  For some people they help, for some they don't do much, and others are made worse by certain supplements.  We generally suggest that people try one supplement at a time, starting with a small dose just to be sure it won't cause them trouble.  BTW what is an editable?  

[Ventus]

Basically a cookie with thc in it. It's legal to have where I am. And it relaxes me alot. A bit too much since if I have once I am basically out of commission for 12 hours. But sometimes I need that.  It stopped working as well as it used to for sleep once the insomnia started though.  It feels like something in my brain just broke.

[Ventus]

About how long does insomnia last in the average cases? It is the only withdrawal symptom I have left now after the reinstatement. All of the others have either gone away or at least reduced to unnoticeable  levels. But the insomina has remained unchanged, it's been almost 6 weeks . Please don't tell me the worst case senerio. 

[getofflex]

I'm very happy to hear that your other symptoms have abated, but I'm sorry to hear about the insomnia.  How many hours of sleep a night are you able to get?  Insomnia was and is my most difficult symptom, so I understand how unpleasant it is.  From your drug signature, it looks like you took buspirone for 2 days last month and it caused insomnia.  It could be that your system is still destabilized from the buspirone.  Unfortunately, adverse reactions to drugs, even after only a couple of doses, can take some time to recover from.  

 

But I Only Took it For a Short Time

 

The good news is, yes, I believe your sleep will eventually improve.  Mine has improved, but very slowly and gradually, and in fits and starts. In other words, when I'm in a wave, I tend to have insomnia.  

 

Are you still using the Ambien, editable, or other things to help you sleep?  Here is some information about insomnia: 

 

Tips to Help Sleep - Withdrawal Insomnia

 

Here is what I do about my insomnia:  

 

1) I keep my iPad with earbuds in it (to not wake hubby) next to my bed at night.  If I can't sleep that night, I listen to a relaxing music playlist on Spotify.  I make sure and pick one that is very long - at least 9 or 10 hours.  I play it at the lowest possible volume.  Sometimes it helps me go to sleep.  Even if it doesn't, it usually calms and relaxes me.  I got the paid version, because the ads would activate me and wake me up.  It's not bad, like $9.99 a month. 

 

2) radical acceptance.  I accept that insomnia really sucks, but it probably won't kill me.  (I'm talking about moderate insomnia, not really severe where one cannot sleep at all for days). 

 

https://www.dbtselfhelp.com/html/radical_acceptance_part_1.html

 

3) gratitude.  I try to be grateful even if I only get 2 or 3 hours of sleep.  At least I was able to get a little sleep, which is better than none at all.  

 

The important thing is, I try not to freak out and get upset about the insomnia, because that just makes it worse by upsetting and activating my nervous system even more.  

 

Just realize that this is a temporary condition, and won't go on forever.  It may take time, but eventually, it will improve.  Mine has improved gradually, but gets worse in times of stress.  Hang in there.  It sounds like you are coming along, and things are improving.  

Edited July 20, 2021 by getofflex

[Ventus]

Unfortunately my insomnia will kill me. I tried 2 nights without any sleep aids and got 0 each. So yeah I am stuck on the ambien. I do agree yeah the buspar probably triggered it. Just waiting for it to go away. I kinda regret the reinstatement since the other withdrawal symptoms didn't actually bother me. 

[getofflex]

Please try not to worry about the Ambien for now.  That is a another problem for another day.  

 

You've been on the reinstatement for over a month, so my suggestion would be to stay on your current drug regime for at least another couple of months to allow your nervous system to get a rest from any drug changes.  Wait until you feel stable, even if this takes more than 2 months. This will probably do it a lot of good.  Then, you can carefully and gradually taper off the citalopram.  Tapering is best done very slowly, and we taper by 10% of the current dose no more than once every 4 weeks, so that the taper becomes exponentially smaller.

 

 Why Taper by 10% of my Dosage  

 

Tips for Tapering Citalopram

 

Another option for tapering is the brassmonkey slide micro taper.  It is more work, but gentler on the nervous system.  

 

Brassmonkey Slide Method of Micro Tapering

 

Once you are off the Citalopram, and well stabilized for a while, then you can do a taper off Ambien.  It is possible to get off all of these drugs, the key is we need a great deal of patience and time.  

 

 

 

 

[Ventus]

Yeah I agree. No more cold turkey. I gave myself a 2 month deadline on the 10mg before I have an appointment about tapering in about 3 weeks,  I can delay the actual tapering if need be but at least I will have a doctor to monitor me. Also the celexa doesn't have the same effect on me as before. Its nothing horrible. Minor tinnitus, less then before but I notice it more now since during the cold turkey the tinnitus went away, and a strange feeling in the head. But it definitely hasn't fully kicked in yet. I still have the emotions I got back after my cold turkey. Do people usually feel this way? I am waiting till the day I can no longer cry to know for sure it kicks in but at a lower dose I dunno if that will even happen. 

[getofflex]

On 7/20/2021 at 11:30 AM, Ventus said:

Also the celexa doesn't have the same effect on me as before. Its nothing horrible. Minor tinnitus, less then before but I notice it more now since during the cold turkey the tinnitus went away, and a strange feeling in the head. But it definitely hasn't fully kicked in yet. I still have the emotions I got back after my cold turkey. Do people usually feel this way? I am waiting till the day I can no longer cry to know for sure it kicks in but at a lower dose I dunno if that will even happen. 

 

A reinstatement usually does not fully take away all the WD symptoms, even if you reinstate to the full previous dose.  It just reduces them.  The more we go on and off the drugs, the more sensitive and unstable our nervous systems tend to become - hence more symptoms.  We call this kindling.  So, you may not feel the way you previously felt on 10 mg citalopram.  I don't suggest you change your dose at this time, and when you taper in the future, do so extremely cautiously and conservatively, when one of the staff suggests it.  

 

Kindling

 

Hang in there.  It time, you will be able to get off this and have a normal life.  It just takes time and patience.

[Ventus]

10mg is actually half my previous dose. So I am on less then before. But yeah insomina is all that's left and if staying on this doesn't fix it I don't see the point in delaying my tapering, my plan to evaluate myself come mid August remains.

[getofflex]

 

47 minutes ago, Ventus said:

10mg is actually half my previous dose

Oops, so sorry, my bad.  

 

47 minutes ago, Ventus said:

But yeah insomina is all that's left and if staying on this doesn't fix it I don't see the point in delaying my tapering, my plan to evaluate myself come mid August remains.

Yes I agree, I would do the same thing. 

[Ventus]

Some rather awesome news that I hope its premature. I stopped needing Ambien and most other sleep aids. I can now sleep around 6 hours with just melatonin, in a few weeks I will trial off that too,  and next week is when I have the appointment to discuss tapering. 

[getofflex]

@Ventusthis is wonderful news!  Congratulations!  Just as a side note, 6 hours of sleep is not bad at all.  There is an idea in modern society that we must all have 8 hours of sleep each night.  Brassmonkey has a very interesting analysis of this.  He said that prior to the Industrial Age, people did not go to bed and sleep 8 hours all at once.  https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/20009-getofflex-weaning-of-lexapro/?do=findComment&comment=528679

 

Please let us know how the tapering discussion goes.  Just remember, many doctors tend to taper off their patients way too fast.  It would be a good idea to compare what he/she says with SA tapering protocols before you do the taper.  

 

[Ventus]

The psychiatrist litterarly said in the first 3 minutes he refused to help me. I have 6 days of 10mg and some old 20mg. then it looks like I am cold turkeying again whether I like it or not. I am gonna cut the pills in half to extend it. I managed to get an emergency appointment with another at 1pm. What can I do so the outcome is different? This begging I hate it so much. If I were to say cut the remaining 6 to 2.5mg I would have 24 days of that. Maybe I should just do that then drop off.

[Ventus]

It's been a rough day being treated as subhuman by the first psychiatrist I saw but I found another  psychiatrist who believed me about withdrawal! And now I have a taper plan and liquid celexa. I am gonna go down the equivalent of 1mg a month.  I know that's faster then you guys suggest but I think I will be ok. It will be 9 months of tapering.

[getofflex]

I'm really glad you found another psychiatrist who is willing to work with you.  It's terrible how so many of these jerks treat their patients.  

 

We strongly suggest an exponential taper, rather than a linear taper.  You may get away with a linear taper at the higher doses, but as you go down into the lower doses, it's important to make the reduction exponentially smaller.  This is because even at very low doses, these drugs affect a high percent of your serotonin receptors.  Please carefully read the following 2 links.  Especially pay attention to the chart in this first link.  

 

SERT Occupancy Studies Show Importance of Exponential Tapering

 

 Why Taper by 10% of my Dosage  

 

How Long is Withdrawal Going to Take

 

 

 

 

 

[Ventus]

Good point. I will see if things get hard and ask to slow down if they do.

[getofflex]

Only trouble with that is, once things get hard, it can take many months to recover from it.  Please do read those links above.  It will make much more sense if you do.  

[Ventus]

So far in my first taper month after 5 days on the 9mg I got heart pain, without an increase in heart rate this time so it was weirder. That went away in about a week. But my sleep also worsened. Melatonin stopped working so I am doing benadryl for a little to give myself a break from it. It's not as bad as before but still insomina is my worse symptom, I worry I will be disabled again if the sleep gets worse. My question is this. I originally planned to go down again in about a week. Would holding at 9m longer help? At this moment the insomnia is my one and only withdrawal symptom. 

[getofflex]

21 hours ago, Ventus said:

My question is this. I originally planned to go down again in about a week. Would holding at 9m longer help?

I would not decrease my dose at this point.  Yes, I would hold longer at 9 mg.  It's important to wait until your symptoms are mild to none before you reduce your dose again.  It's important to wait until you are stable.  These 2 links will help you determine what we mean by stability.  We at SA suggest that people listen to their bodies to determine when to taper, rather than just a date on a calendar.  Here are the links: 

 

Stability

 

WD Normal

 

I've had times where I've had to hold for several months, and I've never regretted it.