300days: mirtazapine while tapering off Xanax

[300days]

Thanks for having me.  (If someone will kindly let me know how to set up my identifying med history below I would appreciate it)

 

I am currently on 1mg of Xanax and 15mg of mirtazapine.  I have been on a direct liquid micro taper of Xanax since June of 2020 and I dose five times a day to minimize interdose symptoms.   I had been on gabapentin and Xanax for ten months back in 2016 following an adverse reaction to levaquin.  I then walked off the meds (did not know to taper and had no side effects).  

In January of 2020, I went back on gabapentin and Xanax following a routine surgery and I had a reaction to the anesthesia similar to the floxing situation back in 2016.  I stayed on gabapentin (300 to 600mg) for about six weeks then stopped.  then needed more Xanax and got up to 1mg per day.  I didn't like being on a controlled substance again so reduced to .75 within a week and the bottom fell out - this was in march of 2020.

I was then placed on 15mg of mirtazapine to help with sleeping and eating, and updosed to 1.5mg of Xanax.  my doctor also had me go on massive doses of supplements called hardy nutritionals (I took 10 vitamins and 6 amino acids per day).  I stabilized and began my slow taper in June of 2020 from the Xanax.  it was a slow and uneventful taper until march of 2021 --- I was down to .7 and still feeling okay (some mild WD) but bloodwork came back and showed an almost toxic range of B6.  Spoke to my psychiatrist and we agreed I would come off the nutrients.  between march of 2021 and july of 2021, I came off all 16 of them.  I began having increased symptoms in April and may -- but didn''t make the connection.  then in july when I finished tapering the supplements -- all hell broke loose.   terrible anxiety, burning skin, tinnitus, very deep depression, intrusive thoughts, looping thoughts, suicidal ideation.   I was down to .65mg of the Xanax at this time having slowed my taper way down while I tapered the supplements.   my doctor wasn't sure what was happening -- so I called hardy nutritional and spoke to one of their scientists who informed me that the purpose of their product was to help people avoid psychotropic meds or to come off them.   He said their studies showed that they could potentiate the meds by up to 3 to 5x.   I told them I felt I was in acute withdrawal and they explained that if their products were potentiating my meds it would make sense I was in such distress and encouraged me to just start taking their product again. 

 

I have not done that.  I was advised to updose my Xanax to 1mg from the .65 but that has not brought much, if any, relief.   I am still sleeping well (7-8 hours per night) but have had to stop working and am not functional during the day.  I wake up with either extreme paralyzing terror or depression that morphs into anxiety, intrusive thoughts, racing suicidal thoughts by afternoon and then usually around 9pm things start to calm - I am able to read, write, calm down a bit only to get up and have it start all over again.

 

My mind wants to, for some reason, blame the mirtazapine for all of these symptoms.   I am not sure why as that doesn't make full sense.  what I am thinking and would love others advice is that it seems discontinuing the supplements has served in some way like a rapid taper off a psychotropic medication -- updating Xanax did not help and I do not want to updose the mirtazapine.  I just updosed eight days ago and finished the supplements about five weeks ago.   Is that too soon to expect my CNS to settle?   any thoughts or comments would be appreciated. 

[Altostrata]

Welcome, @300days

 

Good job on your signature, thanks.

 

First, I want to commend whoever suggested that you divide your Xanax dose to avoid interdose withdrawal. That is the correct approach.

 

I have a slightly different interpretation of your symptom pattern.

On 8/16/2021 at 4:26 PM, 300days said:

it was a slow and uneventful taper until march of 2021 --- I was down to .7 and still feeling okay (some mild WD) but bloodwork came back and showed an almost toxic range of B6.  Spoke to my psychiatrist and we agreed I would come off the nutrients.  between march of 2021 and july of 2021, I came off all 16 of them.  I began having increased symptoms in April....

 

I suggest that the ramp up in symptoms, which track with withdrawal, are related to the benzo reduction schedule rather than the supplements (which probably were not doing you any good, either). If you were have mild withdrawal symptoms in March and continued tapering, that might well have triggered more severe withdrawal symptoms.

 

We have not seen any supplement program enable going off psychiatric drugs, no matter what the purveyors' claims, many of which are backed up by pseudo-science. I do not put any faith in this:

On 8/16/2021 at 4:26 PM, 300days said:

I called hardy nutritional and spoke to one of their scientists who informed me that the purpose of their product was to help people avoid psychotropic meds or to come off them.   He said their studies showed that they could potentiate the meds by up to 3 to 5x.   I told them I felt I was in acute withdrawal and they explained that if their products were potentiating my meds it would make sense I was in such distress and encouraged me to just start taking their product again.

 

On 8/16/2021 at 4:26 PM, 300days said:

I was advised to updose my Xanax to 1mg from the .65 but that has not brought much, if any, relief.   I am still sleeping well (7-8 hours per night) but have had to stop working and am not functional during the day.  I wake up with either extreme paralyzing terror or depression that morphs into anxiety, intrusive thoughts, racing suicidal thoughts by afternoon and then usually around 9pm things start to calm - I am able to read, write, calm down a bit only to get up and have it start all over again.

 

What is your current daily drug schedule, with dosages? Please keep daily notes of times of day you take your drugs, their dosages, and your symptoms throughout the day. We need to know how you feel before and after taking each drug, and your symptoms in between. Post 24 hours of notes at a time in this topic, in a simple list format with time of day on the left and notation (symptom or drug and dosage) on the right. This can show if your symptoms are adverse effects from one of your drugs.

 

@Frogie and @Shep will confer regarding benzo tapering.

 

 

Edited August 20, 2021 by Shep
updated with new username in quote boxes

[300days]

Hi, and thank you for your reply.   

here is a a sample of my day: 

 

total xanax dose 1mg (divided 5 times per day in dlmt) 

total mirtazapine dose (15mg at bedtime) 

 

3:30am   first dose of Xanax (I chose this time as like clockwork I get up to go to the bathroom;  now I set an alarm just to be sure I am

                consistent.   fall immediately back to sleep. 

8:15 am second dose of Xanax (fall immediately back to sleep) 

9:30am-10am.    wake up.  typically either feel terribly depressed (like a 500 weighted blanket) or paralyzed in terror, sometimes 

                             a mix of both. 

10:30-11am -- tend to eat (very clean , chicken breast, melon, black rice or quinoa) 

tend to feel depression/anxiety and some physical internal agitation throughout the day 

1pm - third dose of Xanax 

 

I don't necessarily feel any better or worse before or after taking my dose of my Xanax 

in the last few months have been housebound - -not agoraphobic per se but feel intense fear of everything, overwhelmsed and walk around feeling like someone has a gun to my head --- just pure terror at worst and extreme discomfort at best 

 

3pm - tend to eat another meal 

 

5:45pm.  fourth dose of Xanax 

 

sometimes I get a slight reprieve of my symptoms around 8 or 9pm --- sometimes not until close to 11pm.  

 

10:45pm fifth and last dose of Xanax 

 

from around 11pm until 1am I feel like 60% and am able to read for pleasure, enjoy eating a late night snack of blueberries/some rice crackers - this is the highlight of my day only to go to bed wake up and have to do it all over again 

 

11:30 take mirtazapine -- asleep somewhere between midnight and 1am 

 

I like to stay up a little late as it is the only time of day I tend to get some relief 

 

***I have had to stop working (psychotherapist) about six weeks ago.  Depression, scary intrusive thoughts, disturbing thoughts about people I love, internal agitation, sense of fear and terror nearly all day every day;   have gone from a loving, caring engaged daughter/sister/aunt/partner to a shell of myself over the last few months. 

 

I spoke to the folks at Hardy nutritionals and they said I should never have stopped the 16 supplements mid taper as their supplements are designed to get people off their meds by potentiating them to allow for easier discontinuation.  they said, when I did so it may have felt to my body like an abrupt discontinuation. 

 

It has been 12 days since I updosed from .65 to 1mg of Xanax and I am holding steady here.   the intrusive and disturbing thoughts lead me to feeling very suicidal and then morph into very graphic SI which is also terrifying.   No past psych history in my fifty years -- went on Xanax for adverse reaction to antibiotic.   No history of depression, OCD, GAD.....

 

thank. you for your help!    

 

[300days]

please fix --- it is divided (my Xanax) five times a day -- not three

[Altostrata]

You are taking doses of 0.20mg Xanax at about 5-hour intervals throughout the day?

 

On 8/18/2021 at 5:30 PM, 300days said:

10:30-11am -- tend to eat (very clean , chicken breast, melon, black rice or quinoa) 

tend to feel depression/anxiety and some physical internal agitation throughout the day 

 

Is the anxiety or physical internal agitation more prominent at any particular times of day?

 

On 8/18/2021 at 5:30 PM, 300days said:

9:30am-10am.    wake up.  typically either feel terribly depressed (like a 500 weighted blanket) or paralyzed in terror, sometimes 

                             a mix of both. 

 

Is this the only time of day you feel like this? Please include your observations of how you feel before and after each dose in this topic, in this simple list format with time of day on the left and notation (symptom or drug and dosage) on the right, at least 24 hours at a time.

 

 

Please put ALL your drugs in this Interactions Checker and post the report or a link to it in this topic.

 

Depression is a common adverse effect of chronic benzodiazepines. As you reduce Xanax, this should gradually go away.

 

FYI 

 

Edited August 20, 2021 by Shep
updated with new username in quote boxes

[300days]

Hi, 

Yes, .2 of Xanax taken five times a day.  My morning terror/depression is pretty consistent.  It tends to stay with me off and on throughout the day - -I have been tracking it for months and there is no real rhyme or reason to it other than by at least 10 or 11pm I tend to get a "lift" and can read for pleasure, feel a bit of connection, and a semblance of myself. 

During the day, nearly every day, between like 1:30 and 6pm I tend to get a "surge" of that internal agitation along with wildly disturbing looping intrusive thoughts about members of my family as well as SI.   it is terrifying.   then I am left feeling shaky and worn out a few hours later and deeply depressed that I cannot seem to use my logical mind to tell myself "these are just thoughts, there is no meaning or narrative that is true here, state drives story" --- intellectually, I know all of these things but then my mind will come back at me with more intensity and say "but, what if?"  or a thought will come to me that maybe I am not who people (or I) thought was for the last fifty years and now all of these new thoughts are truth.   I know this sounds like insanity as I write it --- because it feels like it.  

Nutratek is the proprietary blend that was in the nutrients and aminos I was taking (ten nutrients, 6 aminos) --- and not sure what they were doing but the taking them away, I think, zapped an already extremely sensitive nervous system.  All of the symptoms I mentioned above have arrived in the past few months as I have come off of them.  

 

thank you so much for your time and consideration! 

[Altostrata]

I need to see those daily notes, as requested. Also need to see the drug interactions report.

[300days]

I'll do those notes starting today for the next few days and send them out to you.  

regarding the drug checker - don't know how to attach it -- but yes, with mirtazapine and Xanax there can be an increase in sedation --- that is the biggest issue.  Anyway, I will put together the daily routines and submit -- thanks again. 

[Altostrata]

Please post the link to your drug interaction report in this topic. You can copy it from the URL in your browser address bar.

 

Be sure to include any other drugs you might be taking.

[300days]

here it is - hope it works 

 

https://www.drugs.com/interactions-check.php?drug_list=133-0,1640-0

 

(only taking the two meds) 

[300days]

3:30am.    set alarm;  first dose of Xanax (.2) go right back to sleep 

8:15am      set alarm;  second dose of Xanax (.2) fell in and out of sleep 

9:30am     wake up to extreme depression (this vacillates some days deep depression some days extreme terror) 

10:00am    force myself out of bed --- very depressed and scared;  go outside for 15 minutes of sun 

10:30am    eat breakfast (chicken breast and some fruit) 

11am-1pm  back in my room bed surfing (on top of covers), looking things up on internet, trying to remain calm 

1pm           third dose of Xanax 

1-3;30.      therapy session;  looking on internet at success stories 

3:30          eat lunch (chicken/salmon and some rice) 

3:30 - 5:45 -- back in my room -- a lot of laying around on my bed trying to just make it through the dread/terror/frozen in fear feeling I have nearly every day all day 

5:45.         fourth dose of Xanax 

5:45 to 7:30 - text some family;  talk to mom on phone;  fighting with my intrusive thoughts/fears/scared to leave apartment 

7:30.         eat dinner 

8pm. - start to feel a "slight" lift in fear/terror/dread and talk to my partner who has come in from work

9pm - make my meds for next day;  able to actually read for pleasure and have a snack and working on my second book (first one 

            finished and is being edited before sent to publisher) 

10:45. --  final dose of Xanax 

9pm to 1am -- read/write/able to feel connection to people I love;  usually send texts or emails;  

around 11 or midnight I take my 15mg of mirtazapine 

usually asleep between midnight and 1am 

 

***up until eight weeks ago I was working 3-5 hours per day as a therapist and writing full time -- I still had some symptoms (tinnitus, mild fear, mild anhedonia - but was functioning.  Now I live in sheer terror of......who knows?  I alternate between profound depression, internal agitation mixed with racing, looping mind and disturbing intrusive thoughts and strong suicidal ideation.  

 

this is my day every day for the last month or more  - it doesn't vary other than maybe once or twice a week I try to get in my car and drive to get a juice or to run a stupid errand just to try to push myself if the fear isn't overwhelming 

[Shep]

On 8/18/2021 at 11:14 PM, 300days said:

3:30am.    set alarm;  first dose of Xanax (.2) go right back to sleep 

8:15am      set alarm;  second dose of Xanax (.2) fell in and out of sleep 

9:30am     wake up to extreme depression (this vacillates some days deep depression some days extreme terror) 

 

Does the alarm wake you up for each of these doses or do you have an alarm set just to make sure you wake up? I'm concerned that your in-and-out of sleep phases may be contributing to your withdrawal symptoms. 

 

Edited August 20, 2021 by Shep
updated with new username in quote box

[300days]

I have the alarm set for each just in case -- but my body must be getting restless needing its dose because I am typically "awake" for the doses --- plus its around 3:30 each morning that I also have to go to the bathroom ---- so, its not that the alarms wake me from a deep sleep unfortunately.   I would try to go to a longer acting to avoid having to dose so frequently -- but I tried klonopin and I had an adverse reaction and now I feel my CNS is so fragile, - I don't think it could handle another change over to librium or valium.  Plus, depression is already a big issue with me and I know that valium, for many, can really bring on depression.  

 

Back in February I used to dose at 6am, noon, 6pm and midnight and I had the same surges of terrible depression or terror in the morning --- but lately, since reducing all of the supplements --- it begins in the morning and I often don't get much relief until late in the evening.   I know this is all very common in benzo withdrawal (the terror, fear, tinnitus, depression, agitation) --- my mind wants to find ANY other reason and tries to convince me this is all because of mirtazapine.   but I do know that, for now, I don't think its wise to withdraw from two meds at the same time and I do think the mirtazapine is allowing me 7-8 hours of sleep still.   

 

just wondering since last June have come down from 1.5 to .65 then updosed back to 1mg on august 5th plus removed sixteen high end nutriceuticals (the hardy's) since march -- maybe my CNS is just very angry??  

[Shep]

16 hours ago, 300days said:

but I do know that, for now, I don't think its wise to withdraw from two meds at the same time and I do think the mirtazapine is allowing me 7-8 hours of sleep still.   

 

Since you're able to pinpoint the mirtazapine as what helps the most with sleep, coming off the benzo first makes sense. So you have an overall game plan for coming off these drugs. 

 

16 hours ago, 300days said:

just wondering since last June have come down from 1.5 to .65 then updosed back to 1mg on august 5th plus removed sixteen high end nutriceuticals (the hardy's) since march -- maybe my CNS is just very angry??

 

You may be dealing with kindling. Here is more on that:

 

Benzo Info.com - Kindling

 

It's possible some of the nutriceuticals you were on affecting the neurotransmitter GABA similar to a benzo, so yes, it does appear your CNS is just not happy right now due to all of the changes. 

 

How do you feel within 30 minutes of taking Xanax? Do you feel any of your doses are going paradoxical and ramping up symptoms of anxiety? 

 

 

[300days]

Hi, 

No after taking the Xanax the symptoms don't increase -- just don't seem to offer much relief either since I have gone into this wave the last few months --- 

[300days]

I tend to not get any real relief until after my 10:45 dose --- sometimes I start to feel better around 7 or 8 but sometimes not until that final dose at 10:45 -- just depends on the day.  

 

The whole kitchen sink was in those Hardy products and I was on ten of their daily essential nutrients and six of their amino acids -- I think there were a total of 80-90 things combined in both products.   what a mess.   I am now holding at 1mg of Xanax and my 15mg of mirtazapine.   some mornings/days I have terrible depression, others its terrible terror/panic, daily I deal with lots of racing intrusive thoughts --- again, all of this is relatively new --- maybe end of June 

[Shep]

17 hours ago, 300days said:

I tend to not get any real relief until after my 10:45 dose --- sometimes I start to feel better around 7 or 8 but sometimes not until that final dose at 10:45 -- just depends on the day.

 

I'm wondering if you're feeling better due to decreases in cortisol as the day progresses toward evening or if it's the build-up of the Xanax. 

 

Did you ever get any relief from Xanax? If so, do you remember what dose and time(s) of the day you were taking it? 

[300days]

hi shep, 

I do think there is something about the cortisol/adrenaline, etc as I see on both this site and benzo buddies that many people tend to feel less symptomatic in the evenings.   depending on the day, I sometimes get some relief after my 5:45pm dose of Xanax.  before removing all of the 16 hardy supplements over the last few months, I didn't really have very many withdrawal symptoms at all.   it has only been in the past few months.  I definitely don't feel worse after I dose........I wake up for my 3:30am dose and am able to fall back to sleep....take my 8:15am dose and typically doze for another hour or so........my mornings can be bad but what is strange is often the worst time of day for me symptom wise is like 2 to 6pm.   I tend to get more internal agitation, racing thoughts, etc........mornings tend to be the depression/terror -- but I am noticing that the symptoms don't have a true set pattern.  last night around 8pm I began to feel quite well and was able to reach out to my family and write some lettters of gratitude.  

I am praying the updose, the long hold -- the not adding or taking away supplements, etc will eventually allow my brain to settle down.  this week was especially bad a few days but I am also due for my period any day and I also had the first Pfizer injection on Tuesday. 

 

I am trying to take the idea that this is at all caused by mirtazapine off the table -- since I really can't think about tapering that right now anyway.......

[300days]

Dear Shep, Alto and others, 

 

as you can see from my history I have been stabilized on 15mg of mirtazapine since April of 2020;  I have been tapering Xanax since June of 2020 and had mild/uneventful taper until Feb/march of 2021 when I had to come off those 16 Hardy supplements that were clearly either potentiating the meds or, at least, covering up the withdrawal.  I tapered off those sixteen supplements between march and july and slowly fell apart.  Early August I was off supplements, not functioning (unable to work, terrible mental symptoms of depression, intrusive thoughts, apathy, anhedonia, intense anxiety and surges) and I was down to .65 of Xanax.   Two weeks ago yesterday I updosed to 1mg of Xanax.  There is the possibility I have felt a "slight" relief but it is also my PMS week (makes things harder for me in withdrawal) and I had m first Pfizer vaccination and it seemed to rev things a bit. 

 

here are my two questions: 

1) is it possible to find a place of stability while I am still taking the 1mg of Xanax?   I have heard not to hold too long due to tolerance developing but then have heard from others that our CNS needs a break and to take a long hold and give it a chance to settle down 

2) my symptoms change daily--- every day is bad but somedays its intense anxiety/racing thoughts other times its weighted heavy depression, others its a mix of the two.....

 

it has been 2 week since I have 'held' everything constant --- the updose, not titrating off the Xanax and no more supplements 

thanks for your support 

[Go2zero]

 

 

3 hours ago, 300days said:

Dear Shep, Alto and others, 

 

as you can see from my history I have been stabilized on 15mg of mirtazapine since April of 2020;  I have been tapering Xanax since June of 2020 and had mild/uneventful taper until Feb/march of 2021 when I had to come off those 16 Hardy supplements that were clearly either potentiating the meds or, at least, covering up the withdrawal.  I tapered off those sixteen supplements between march and july and slowly fell apart.  Early August I was off supplements, not functioning (unable to work, terrible mental symptoms of depression, intrusive thoughts, apathy, anhedonia, intense anxiety and surges) and I was down to .65 of Xanax.   Two weeks ago yesterday I updosed to 1mg of Xanax.  There is the possibility I have felt a "slight" relief but it is also my PMS week (makes things harder for me in withdrawal) and I had m first Pfizer vaccination and it seemed to rev things a bit. 

 

here are my two questions: 

1) is it possible to find a place of stability while I am still taking the 1mg of Xanax?   I have heard not to hold too long due to tolerance developing but then have heard from others that our CNS needs a break and to take a long hold and give it a chance to settle down 

2) my symptoms change daily--- every day is bad but somedays its intense anxiety/racing thoughts other times its weighted heavy depression, others its a mix of the two.....

 

it has been 2 week since I have 'held' everything constant --- the updose, not titrating off the Xanax and no more supplements 

thanks for your support 

 

I merged this separately made thread with this thread. Please post ALL your questions and comments in this thread only. So all your information will be kept together. Thank you!

 

Edited August 22, 2021 by Go2zero

[Shep]

16 hours ago, 300days said:

here are my two questions: 

1) is it possible to find a place of stability while I am still taking the 1mg of Xanax?   I have heard not to hold too long due to tolerance developing but then have heard from others that our CNS needs a break and to take a long hold and give it a chance to settle down 

2) my symptoms change daily--- every day is bad but somedays its intense anxiety/racing thoughts other times its weighted heavy depression, others its a mix of the two.....

 

it has been 2 week since I have 'held' everything constant --- the updose, not titrating off the Xanax and no more supplements 

 

The benzo forums such as Benzo Buddies tend to hold onto the concept tolerance withdrawal. You may find this thread helpful:

 

"Benzo Tolerance withdrawal" during tapering -- does it exist?

 

With a history of polypharmacy as well as numerous supplements that can cause withdrawal symptoms, it's hard to tell what caused what. I would hold for a few more weeks and see if you develop a more solid baseline. It may not be great, but if you can reach a point of what moderator Brassmonkey refers to as "withdrawal normal," the rest of your taper may be more comfortable. 

 

Withdrawal Normal

 

The symptoms changing daily is not unusual. Symptoms wave and wane, morph and return. It's a very nonlinear, unpredictable path, unfortunately. It's best to look at your symptoms in terms of "overall" - are you "overall" better or worse than a month or two months ago. In time, you may note more lengthy patterns. Also, you may note the symptoms in terms of intensity and severity. Some symptoms fade out so gradually, it's hard to notice that they're leaving. And some symptoms may not leave until you're completely off the drug and well into the recovery phase. 

[300days]

thanks shep, this was very helpful.  Yes, I agree-- even though I didn't change the mirtazapine - that has been the only thing I haven't changed in the last five months (continued to taper Xanax, albeit slowly, then withdrew the 16 supplements, then updosed Xanax two weeks ago).  So, a lot of changes and probably a pretty angry CNS.   I do notice some things are better and some things are worse and I think that makes sense and I think holding at least for a few more weeks (may let myself try to hold for three months) to see if I can hit a more stable baseline from which to continue to taper from.......thank you 

[300days]

shep and moderators, 

I know this is more of a benzo question but could also apply to AD's and you guys seem to really know your stuff........I kind of know why I am am having such a hard time coming off benzos -- previous use and just walked off, a good taper this time until had to get rid of 16 supplements and threw an already sensitive CNS to the ground........but I am curious about the people I read about who after taking AD's or even benzos for a short period of time can have years of suffering.......had read about a woman years back -- just put on low dose Ativan for two weeks --- did a rapid taper and jumped off .25 and faced horrific symptoms was placed on low dose celexa and mirtazapine and then CT the celexa after a month and rapid tapered the mirt over four months --- two years later she felt she was getting worse.........is it all just genetics ---- or could even CT from three meds for just a short time be enough to lead to long term struggling? 

[Shep]

There's really no way to know, especially on online, anonymous forums where we don't know if there are other variables in play. Someone could be doing much worse several years out because they were so sick, they couldn't work and went through their savings. The collateral damage piles up as the years pass. And we're all getting older, so there may be other illnesses or setbacks. And many people experiment with this or that supplement and can have setbacks that way. 

 

And some of it may boil down to individual neuroplasticity and resilience. So, yes,  there may be some genetic component, as well as the environment - if someone is left in poverty with few resources, they will suffer more than someone who has all of their needs met. 

 

And some short time users are dealing with adverse reactions to the drugs. Those types of injuries can in some cases, take a long time to heal. 

 

And many of us suffered adverse reactions to the first psychiatric drug we took, but were then gaslighted by psychiatrists into believing the myth of "mental illness" and went on more drugs, so we never suffered the worst of withdrawal until decades later when we finally came off. It's really a mixed bag of experiences. 

 

[300days]

thanks for that reply shep.   I have found that I tend to do worse in the mornings and afternoons and begin to feel better in the evening.   at this time I am not tapering the mirtazapine yet, just the Xanax (and currently in a long hold) -- do you know if there is any pattern to this in discontinuing meds--- harder days, easier evenings and why? 

[300days]

@Shepand all members/moderators -- can you guys help me figure this out?  so, I have been taking 15mg of mirtazapine at night before bed (take it usually around midnight) and wake up around 9am -- get up once or so to go to bathroom but fall back to sleep. I am in the middle of a rough Xanax taper.  I wake up either depressed or full of terror every morning and then this moves into what feels like a full body agitation/internal burning/revved up and intrusive racing thoughts that hit about 2pm and last until around 6:30pm.  I think I am wanting to find any reason other than it just being bad benzo withdrawal -- but would that make any sense that I am reacting poorly to the mirtazapine during the day?  it is clearly helping me sleep well - - I have lots of vivid dreams -- my days are miserable and then I feel well (well, better) again in the evening especially close to 10pm until I go to bed around 1am.  thanks for your consideration......I have been on this med since April of 2020 

[300days]

hi guys, 

I also write on the AD thread but thought I would write here as well.  long story short --- I was having a mild dlmt taper off of 1.5mg of Xanax to .64 between June of 2020 and July of 2021.  However, in march of 2021 I had to start to reduce the sixteen supplements I was on (hardy nutritional -- ten nutrients and six amino acids) and things continued to decline until the bottom fell out in July.  My doc had started me on them pre taper to "help build me up for withdrawal" -- had to stop them because my b6 became toxic and my doc said it was okay just to stop -- I decided to taper them to hopefully reduce a strong CNS reaction.  I guess my taper didn't matter.  I went from functioning to non-functional, internal akathesia, depression, anxiety, fear, more fear, terror.........I had to stop working.  

 

I do take 15mg of mirtzapine at night and have since april of 2020.  I sleep 7-8 hours a night. 

 

My doc had me updose to 1mg a month ago and I haven't seen any improvement -- I did, however, get my first Pfizer vaccine and had an uptick and that was two weeks ago.........

 

I dose my Xanax every 4.75 hours at 3:30am, 8:15am, 1pm, 5:45pm and 10:45 pm......then I take my mirtazapine sometime between 11:45 and 1am and go to sleep.  

 

I wake up each day depressed or anxious and then the agitation begins to build.  I don't seem to get relief from the Xanax doses --- 

 

I called hardy nutritional to find out what the heck happened as I feel I am in acute withdrawal --- they said their neutriceuticals were meant to help people come off psychotropics and their research shows being on the supplements I was on could have potentiated the meds (Xanax and mirtazapine) by upwards of 3x.   I explained I had been on a slow micro taper precisely to avoid any large cuts and they said my doc should have been working closer with me.....

 

do you feel my system is just super sensitized now due to the dramatic drop in high potency supplements plus an updose a month ago - -- should I just continue to sit here and wait a bit longer to see if I can settle down?  

 

the mirtazapine helps me sleep -- is there any possibility it is the cause of these worsening withdrawal symptoms? 

[Shep]

@300daysPlease note I moved your post off the benzo forum and placed it here in your intro forum since you're dealing with both a benzo and an AD. This keeps all of your information in one place. The benzo forum doesn't get a lot of responses. 

 

On 9/6/2021 at 4:18 PM, 300days said:

I do take 15mg of mirtzapine at night and have since april of 2020.  I sleep 7-8 hours a night. 

 

My doc had me updose to 1mg a month ago and I haven't seen any improvement -- I did, however, get my first Pfizer vaccine and had an uptick and that was two weeks ago.........

 

Since you're sleeping all night, I would continue to hold for a couple of weeks and see if some of the upticks in symptoms since the vaccine resolve. 

 

It's possible the supplements had ingredients that affected serotonin, GABA, and other neurotransmitters and stopping them cold turkey affected you. 

 

But the fact that you're sleeping is great. You may want to work on learning some non-drug coping strategies for dealing with the daytime anxiety.

 

Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

 

This may help:

 

The Breathing Space by Jon Kabat Zinn video (4 minutes)

 

You may also want to learn about mindfulness in order to help you with your anxiety. Mindfulness isn't about sitting down and closing your eyes - it's about learning to not attach your thoughts to your bodily sensations. One of my favorite mindfulness gurus Mooji says, "Your thoughts are like visitors and you are NOT a hotel! Don't invite them in." (One of his videos I've returned to again and again is here - Nervousness, Anxiety & Fear ~ Spoken by Mooji).

 

When you attach your thoughts to your bodily sensations, they can easily lead you to an emotional spiral (see Dealing With Emotional Spirals). 

 

Dr. Claire Weekes comes highly recommended for helping people learn how to manage and cope with anxiety. 

 

Dr. Claire Weekes - How To Recover (part 1)

 

She has several videos in this series. 

 

And this is a great short video on acceptance without adding "second fear":

 

Dr. Claire Weekes: How to accept the physical symptoms of nervous illness video (1.5 minutes)

 

 

This is a great article on "second fear":

 

The Anxiety Monster Feeds on Second Fear

 

You can also learn to turn anxiety and nervousness into excitement, since the same physiology that creates fear is also involved in feeling excitement. It's about how you frame your narrative: 

 

Nervous vs. Excited video (2.5 minutes)

 

So instead of feeling anxiety over the vaccine (no matter what anxiety symptoms are in your body), try thinking about all of the things you'll be able to do in the world now that you've gotten your vaccine. 

[300days]

thanks shep, I appreciate the helpful reply.  I feel I am on a merry go round of mental symptoms since the dc of my supplements -- extreme depression, dp/dr, agitation, anxiety, fear/terror......sometimes they hit at different times in the same day and sometimes one day its one of them followed by a different one the next day.  I am praying holding a bit longer might help -- yes, there were definitely things in the supplements that affected serotonin, gaba, etc ---- I mean between the two products I was on there were over 120 ingredients and I was on MASSIVE doses.  its been a few months, I would have thought I would have seen some progress by now -- but I will continue to wait it out a bit longer and see before I begin on my Xanax taper again.   The Claire Weeks and other stuff used to be helpful in my taper when things were more mild --but as they have become more acute - it is hard to gain any ground with them.  

have you seen longer holds help folks stabilize?  its only been 31 days since my updose/hold and in that time I have had both of my Pfizer vaccinations -- so, I will give it a bit more time -- thank you 

[Shep]

19 hours ago, 300days said:

have you seen longer holds help folks stabilize?

 

Here's an example (and there are many others out there): 

 

On 7/10/2017 at 10:08 AM, bubble said:

I would just like to briefly share my experience with long holds. Last year I at5 one point increased my rate of Xanax taper from 5 % per month to 10 %. After a few months of that I started feeling so bad that at one point I couldn't talk to people for more than 30 minutes (or less), I couldn't leave my house or anything. I felt I would never again be able to work or live like a regular person. I saw no option but to hold and hope for miracle.

 

After one month I saw little difference, after 2 months I also saw little difference, after that I went back to work but had to take one week per month off, after 4 months I still couldn't do more than 50 % of my tasks at work, after 6 months I tried to do some of those and I ended up in horrible DP/DR. I continued holding. After 9 months of holding I was able to travel abroad and speak at a conference.

 

[300days]

shep, thank you so much for sharing this --- I pray this is my path 

[300days]

shep do you think that being on mirtazapine (holding that steady at 15mg) will be an obstacle to healing from Xanax and being able to complete my taper?  I am still sleeping 6-8 hour per night with it -- and didn't want to touch it while tapering Xanax 

[300days]

dear shep and alto, 

thank you, in advance, for reading this and your help.  first, Alto -- I think you originated this site and I have just written a book on medication injury and will hopefully be through publishing in the early new year -- I wanted to make sure you were okay with my mentioning this website at the end of the book in my resources list for AD injury/withdrawal, etc? 

 

Second, as you guys have seen I have gone from functioning in my taper to non-functional.  I can no longer work ( I am a psychologist) and I am basically housebound 24/7.   Alto, I heard you to stop looking at the removal of the 16 Hardy supplements I was on as the cause of my issues --- and I agree I need to move on --- red herring or not it is not helpful.  that said, the intrusive thoughts, feelings of agitated dysphoria (internal akathesia), some minor akathesia (leg/feet movement), waves of sheer terror, constant fear (feel like someone has a gun to my back), and restlessness, and depression have been my constant companion now for five months and all of this is new.  I had none of these symptoms before March of 2021.  I updosed my xaanx from .65 to 1mg at the request of my doctor and have held there now for 10 weeks.  I am still on my 15mg of remeron that I take each night.  I sleep 5-8 hours per night......wake up in fear/terror and the day goes like that until around 9:30 or 10pm when symptoms start to lift a bit a few hours before bed.  

 

My question is am I doing something wrong?  is there something more or different that I should be doing?  would the remeron suddenly be causing terror and akathisia like symptoms, or is this more likely part of my benzo withdrawal?  prior to updosing in august, I had decreased from 1.5mg of Xanax in June of 2020 to .65 of Xanax in July of 2021.  

 

I take the remeron typically around midnight, then I read and fall asleep around 2am.  I wake once during the night to go to the bathroom and fall back to sleep.  I have vivid dreams but seem to sleep soundly.  but back in fear/terror/agitation upon waking and it seems to peak between 3pm and 6:30pm then "typically" begins to lessen as the night goes on.  

 

thank you for your kindness and support 

[Altostrata]

On 10/11/2021 at 3:00 PM, 300days said:

I had none of these symptoms before March of 2021.  I updosed my xaanx from .65 to 1mg at the request of my doctor and have held there now for 10 weeks.  I am still on my 15mg of remeron that I take each night.  I sleep 5-8 hours per night......wake up in fear/terror and the day goes like that until around 9:30 or 10pm when symptoms start to lift a bit a few hours before bed.  

 

I see you made several drug changes in February 2021, plus it appears the supplements caused some dramatic anomaly in your blood tests? What was that, do you remember?

 

What times o'clock do you take your drugs, with their dosages? Are your symptoms better or worse at certain times of day?

 

Yes, you may mention this site in your book.

[300days]

dear alto, 

well,  I was doing quite well and slow and steady in my taper while on the 16 supplements.  On routine bloodwork my B6 came back near toxic and my B12 was off the charts as well (in my supplements that contained like over a 100 things it was like 15000% B6 and like 25000% RDA of B12) --- my doc recommended I come off the supra-supplements and my psychiatrist, who had put me on them to begin with, said it would be okay.   as I tapered off them, I became more and more symptomatic and then eventually acute, nearly bed bound, and non-functional.   I dose my Xanax five time a day at 3:30am (I normally get up to go to bathroom about this time), 8:15am, 1pm, 5:45pm and 10:45pm.  I take my mirt around 12-12:30 and go to bed around 1:30 but I am going to start to take my mirt around 11:15 and be in bed ready to sleep by 11:30........no screens post 10:30.   I do fall asleep and sleep well through the nights.  I dream vividly but not negative.  

 

My symptoms are all over the place in terms of severity and time of day.  I will say that I wake up around 9-9:30 and typically feel very depressed.....then once up I tend to hit what I think some call internal akathesia (an agitated dysproria where I feel I am plugged into a nuclear power plant and racing negative thoughts, terror, just hell) and that will happen at least once a day sometimes around 11 or sometimes around 3pm and last until 6 or so.   most nights, not all, I tend to get some relief starting around 8:30 to 10pm and lasting until I fall asleep.  that is not every night, but most. 

 

I thought about interdose with the Xanax but there doesn't seem to be a set pattern --- some times I feel awful before my dose, sometimes not, sometimes I feel just as bad after I dose......so, it doesn't really seem to fit a typical interdose pattern. 

 

I am not tapering at this time - been holding 10.5 weeks since updosing from .65 to 1mg of the xanax.  

 

my symptoms are the agitated dysphoric episodes, dp/dr, depression, intrusive thoughts, fear and terror 24/7 ----- again NONE of this prior to March.   

 

I am just scared as I worry that this agitated dysphoria is kind of bordering on akathisia --- as over the last couple of weeks there have been increased movement (needing to constantly shake my feet)......the only other thing that entered into the occasion were my two Pfizer vaccines on august 17th and September 7th.   other than than everything has stayed steady. 

 

thank you for your consideration.  

I will let you know once the book is out -- even though it isn't specifically about AD injury -- it is about med injury in general and specifically antibiotic and benzos --- but AD fits in there well and I speak to it several times 

 

 

 

[Greatful]

@300days

Hi, I wanted to stop by and say I can feel your frustration, panic , fear.   I have been struggling with WD since last summer.  I can relate to the fear, depression, panic, obsessing, terror.  The thoughts that your mind can make up and they feel so real, UGH.  This is a scary and painful journey.  And certainly a eye opener of what these drugs do in changing our brains.  I am also on FMLA  and I worry about if I will be able to go back to work.

I can look back with some humor now but it was very scary in April when I ct'd Seroquel and started the Lexapro, while in WD from other drugs.  I thought I was going insane.  I was sitting by the window and heard birds singing and the thought popped into my head,  I wonder if those birds are going to start talking to me.  Well the brain was so out of wack that I really worried about it, if I was outside and the wind blew I thought may be it would change into a mans voice and talk to me.  I would get weird feelings of fear and would want to look around to see what I am suppose to be afraid of.  The filer in my brain could not function right. I am happy to say I can listen to the birds and the wind now and not worry.  Here is a story about a woman that recovered from benzos.  It also applies to any drug that changes the chemistry in your brain.  I printed it out to have a hand, it helps to remind me that I am not going insane and that my brain will get it together someday.  Hopefully soon🥴

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/10914-what-is-happening-in-your-brain/ 

 

Noise's like people's voices, dishes clanking,  tv, etc. are a very situating to me and make me want to rip my ears off.  The brain feels panicky.  I just hope I don't get tinnitus. This does intensify and then diminish on  a daily bases.  

 

Keep reaching out to find support and encouragement.  I know how overwhelming this is.

Hang in there, you are stronger than you think.❤️

If you want to tag someone to let them know you want to talk to them @ then start to type their name in, click on the name and it will highlight like your name at @300days. They will then get a notification.   

Read success stories this will encourage you that you can heal ☺️