Knosretep: don't know what to do - clonazepam and Zoloft and extras

March 8, 2022

I was hoping to wait another week till I hit 10 months off Venlafaxine to do another update post, but I've been hit with a bunch of setbacks and stressors recently and need to vent my frustrations. The week of my 9 month post ended up being the best week that I've had since I started, and since then the weeks have been getting worse and worse.

The first small setback was a test to see if histamine foods were affecting me, which it turns out they seem to be. I've been slowly eating the remaining spinach, mixing it in with broccoli, but in hindsight I think I should have probably just avoided it since its frozen and should keep for quite a while till I'm less sensitive.

The 2nd setback was drinking a tiny bottle of soy peptide vitamin boost on a Friday night. I have no idea what possessed me to think this was a good idea, and I suffered horrible sleep that night and 2 excruciating days of symptoms afterwards.

The 3rd stressor was renewing my marriage visa for another year. Immigration visits have always given me tons of stress. It seems like there's no strict standard to formal paperwork here, and really comes down to who's doing the processing and how they are feeling that day. You can be told you need X form, only to go get X form and then later be told you also need Y form, which there was no mention of before, so its super frustrating. Thankfully we took pictures of every page we submitted last year, and after buying the house, my wife went through the steps of getting me an actual Thai ID card and a 'yellow book', so those things might have helped, but there was actually no issues at all and we were only waiting there maybe an hour. Amazing really, but I still had all the precipitation anxiety of catastrophizing the event in the days prior.

The 4th stressor is that my sales last month were 66% of normal for an average month, and my sales this month are only 33% of normal so far. Financial stability (security) is probably my highest human need of the 6 basic human needs, and this is really wrecking on my mental state because I've tried returning to do some work and I've been unable to accomplish anything really with my current state and that in turn drives up my anxiety. Creating new products takes weeks or months even when I'm in my normal semi-workaholic state, and even then there's no guarantee that they will sell, so this is really really stressing for me because I feel powerless to change it. I will be featured in some promotions next month which will hopefully bring in a decent amount of money, and boost my products in the rankings.

The 5th stressor is one of my good friends moving away, and hearing another one is leaving in mid April. These are 2 of my best friends here who I get together with most often and who are supportive of me in my WD state and know that distraction with them is a good thing for me.

The 6th stressor was attempting a little exercise one day to try to boost my mood after all these things. I only did pushups, some situps, and jogged in place for only 3 minutes, but it seems to have only made things worse. My brother proposed that I might have long covid and that's why my fatigue is so bad now when I used to go the gym frequently and walk up to 2 hours a day just prior to being sick. I guess either way it doesn't matter, regardless I'm unable to exercise right now besides short, gentle walks.

There are a few more new things negatively impacting me at this point, but this post is already so negative that its only making me feel worse thinking about everything. I've broken down crying many times in the past 2 weeks, and getting through every day seems like a struggle again. I'm trying to remain positive and seeing that my daily scores are still better than they were when I started tracking. I know many people are still much worse off than myself with their symptoms and living conditions/situations, so I should be thankful for the things that I still have.

March 8, 2022

Hi @Knosretep
I am afraid I can not help you by giving any drug or food related guidance or advice.
I just want to tell you that I can understand and relate to the hard time you are going through. I am really sorry about the hard time you are going through and hope there are better days waiting ahead.

Quote

The 5th stressor is one of my good friends moving away, and hearing another one is leaving in mid April.

I understand that you are feeling hopeless/afraid because of friends moving away.
I feel the same many times. I live in a foreign country and I have no real close friends here so my social interactions are limited to almost non existent. I also try to avoid people that I know will make my mood worse. People that whine the whole time about anything, people that only want to socialize with other people in order to boast about themselves or try to make you feel insignificant in order to make themselves feel better, I believe are people best avoided.
I think trying to keep in touch as much as possible with family or a few good friends over the internet is the best. And not just texting but do actual calls.

Quote

The 6th stressor was attempting a little exercise one day to try to boost my mood after all these things.

Sorry to hear that. Working out can be very beneficial to the whole situation. I think not giving up but keep trying by doing the absolute minimum you can without deteriorating your state will help you to keep up in shape as possible and boost your mood.

March 8, 2022

1 hour ago, gatos said:

Hi @Knosretep
I am afraid I can not help you by giving any drug or food related guidance or advice.
I just want to tell you that I can understand and relate to the hard time you are going through. I am really sorry about the hard time you are going through and hope there are better days waiting ahead.

Hi @gatos

Thanks for stopping by my thread. You have helped me already with your encouragement and well wishes, so no worries and thank you again! 🙂

1 hour ago, gatos said:

I understand that you are feeling hopeless/afraid because of friends moving away.
I feel the same many times. I live in a foreign country and I have no real close friends here so my social interactions are limited to almost non existent. I also try to avoid people that I know will make my mood worse. People that whine the whole time about anything, people that only want to socialize with other people in order to boast about themselves or try to make you feel insignificant in order to make themselves feel better, I believe are people best avoided.
I think trying to keep in touch as much as possible with family or a few good friends over the internet is the best. And not just texting but do actual calls.

Yes, I know exactly what you're talking about. I've already lost a few people I thought were friends but I realize now only message when there's a need and never invite me along to anything or ask how I'm doing. I think its pretty common to lose 'friends' when going through this, but the process lets you know who your true friends are. That makes seeing those 2 friends leave all the more painful. I can still talk to them on the phone, but that's really never done it for me, I much prefer to talk to people in person.

1 hour ago, gatos said:

Sorry to hear that. Working out can be very beneficial to the whole situation. I think not giving up but keep trying by doing the absolute minimum you can without deteriorating your state will help you to keep up in shape as possible and boost your mood.

Yeah, I'm a bit hesitant to find that absolute minimum without deterioration right now with everything else going on, but I know how important exercise normally is to a good mood. When I start to feel better I will try to exercise again but keep it really light.

Edited March 8, 2022 by Knosretep
formatting

March 9, 2022

I'm adding a small update since my very negative last post.

I've had 2 days without the Panic Spiral and Doom Cloud that has precipitated my breakdowns these last weeks. I've picked a project to accomplish and have been slowly working on it a little bit each day, despite a good deal of anxiety still. My akathisia has subsided and I think that's really the thing that pushed me over the edge before. The combination of akathisia, anxiety, and depression creates a situation where I feel I need to move to take action but can't sit still enough to focus, then the anxiety starts because I can't work, and that spills over into the already existing depression and everything cascades into an unchangeable channel of the spiral with the eruption of the cloud as the finale.

Last night I had a lucid dream and I awoke with zero morning anxiety. I've had a few more sales this month so that puts me more at ease, and I have friends coming over tonight so I have something to look forward to. Hopefully this improvement continues and I can get back to the level that I was at 3 weeks ago where WD was slightly fading into the background a little bit, and thoughts of tapering seemed more of a possibility. I was also considering adding in a little more magnesium, trying an additional pro-biotic during the day, or adding in the other half of my multi-vitamin. (but obviously only one at a time)

March 9, 2022

Hi @Knosretep,

I wrote the below message before your current update but intended on adding more to it so didn't post:

I am so sorry to hear that you are struggling. It felt from your update that you are putting pressure on yourself that it has been 10 months but don't forget that it was only end of last year that you made a lot of changes and have been on a stable dose for only three full months. Your body is doing great in terms of adjusting to only three months of stability. Unfortunately the waves can feel awful as we know. But you are on your way and making good progress! I remember how scared you were only a few months ago. I am so glad you found your way to us. It is so great having you here

I understand very well the sadness of being a global nomad surrounded by other global nomads. It is exciting that you can live in amazing places, but it also takes out a lot of you making new friends and those friends are usually also other global nomads and leave in search of better pastures. Hard to know where home really is. I feel like my heart is in a dozen different places around the world.

I have found that contrary to common belief, one can make friends as adults and even in withdrawal. It is much harder but possible. I find it is easier to do it over common interests and tasks. Instead of giving yourself a task to find a great friend, it may be easier to start by looking for more human connection. Other humans regulate our emotions - whether they are very close friends that know our souls or just the neighbor who is telling us a funny story or complaining about her dog.

In the beginning of withdrawal, I had just moved to a new city and while I knew (as acquaintances) lots of people, they were very busy (I worked from home on projects) and I missed my previous friends. My goal initially was to just find people to talk to and distract me because withdrawal was setting me into rumination spirals (still does). And I did that by going to meetups to play board games. I wasn't hoping that these people would be great friends (some of them ended up becoming good friends) but I wanted to just be in the presence of people. Otherwise every single issue took disproportionate place in my mind.

I find playing board games is a good way to socialize because the focus is not on any one person but on a common task, it removes a lot of pressure. Do you have any potential board gamers around you? Do you like board games? What about other things that you could do with people - cooking classes, painting, drum circles?

This is not to say that you shouldn't be sad for your friends leaving - it is hard when close friends leave and we need to grieve our times together. I am doing that now that I am moving away for a bit. But it might help to also look for new friends not to necessarily replace them but to ensure some level of socialization and distraction.

Post new message:

I am so glad that you are getting at least some relief and subtle improvement and managing to make progress on projects. This is good news. I think there shouldn't be an issue with increasing magnesium, very few people have sensitivities to it. However, I'd hold off on the multivitamin. On average multivitamins are not shown to have a benefit so if you're eating well, getting sun etc. I would even cut out the one that you are taking now as some MVs can contain large amounts of D and Bs that may be activating to sensitive systems. Probiotics should be OK in my experience.

Wishing you more and more improvement.
OMW

March 10, 2022

Hi @Onmyway

4 hours ago, Onmyway said:

I am so sorry to hear that you are struggling. It felt from your update that you are putting pressure on yourself that it has been 10 months but don't forget that it was only end of last year that you made a lot of changes and have been on a stable dose for only three full months. Your body is doing great in terms of adjusting to only three months of stability. Unfortunately the waves can feel awful as we know. But you are on your way and making good progress! I remember how scared you were only a few months ago. I am so glad you found your way to us. It is so great having you here

Thanks for the kind words. ❤️ Yeah, its been over 4 months of consistent dosage and there's definite progress. Yesterday ended up being one of the lowest symptom days that I've recorded....**** is crazy. I thought it was just all these recent things going on that were affecting me but its probably they they also happened to coincide with a natural wave that is hopefully subsiding???

4 hours ago, Onmyway said:

I understand very well the sadness of being a global nomad surrounded by other global nomads. It is exciting that you can live in amazing places, but it also takes out a lot of you making new friends and those friends are usually also other global nomads and leave in search of better pastures. Hard to know where home really is. I feel like my heart is in a dozen different places around the world.

Yes, can definitely relate. While I myself was planning on moving around move, I ended up just staying in Thailand as a base and then taking trips from here to visit neighboring countries, but many friends that I've made while here have been tourists on 3 month visas so they never became close friends. I really don't feel like I have a home anymore. The US is where my blood family is, but when I've gone back to visit I know its just temporary. Here in Thailand, I'll always be a foreigner. I think that has accounted for some of the depression that I felt despite being on medication and why I tried switching to Venlafaxine in 2021.

4 hours ago, Onmyway said:

I have found that contrary to common belief, one can make friends as adults and even in withdrawal. It is much harder but possible. I find it is easier to do it over common interests and tasks. Instead of giving yourself a task to find a great friend, it may be easier to start by looking for more human connection. Other humans regulate our emotions - whether they are very close friends that know our souls or just the neighbor who is telling us a funny story or complaining about her dog.

In the beginning of withdrawal, I had just moved to a new city and while I knew (as acquaintances) lots of people, they were very busy (I worked from home on projects) and I missed my previous friends. My goal initially was to just find people to talk to and distract me because withdrawal was setting me into rumination spirals (still does). And I did that by going to meetups to play board games. I wasn't hoping that these people would be great friends (some of them ended up becoming good friends) but I wanted to just be in the presence of people. Otherwise every single issue took disproportionate place in my mind.

I find playing board games is a good way to socialize because the focus is not on any one person but on a common task, it removes a lot of pressure. Do you have any potential board gamers around you? Do you like board games? What about other things that you could do with people - cooking classes, painting, drum circles?

Most of my friends here are from boardgaming, and I love boardgaming so much that I've also developed a few of them myself. There were meetups that used to run before Covid that would bring in new people, but often many of them would be tourists, and all the more permanent residents ended up becoming the close friends that I have now. We have started to get together as a group again on Fridays only recently, so that's been good.

Most other stuff I have too much anhedonia to find any interest in, or something like hiking which I enjoy doing its too hot now and I'm not able to exercise, or going to the movies is way too much audio and visual stimulation to handle. Going out to eat together is something I avoid as well because too many foods are stimulating and I can't enjoy my meal while thinking about how its going to make me feel sh*tty later. These are things that I know I'll be able to do again someday when I'm further along in recovery.

4 hours ago, Onmyway said:

This is not to say that you shouldn't be sad for your friends leaving - it is hard when close friends leave and we need to grieve our times together. I am doing that now that I am moving away for a bit. But it might help to also look for new friends not to necessarily replace them but to ensure some level of socialization and distraction.

Grieving is certainly happening. Aside from the friends who've left and the friends who weren't really friends, there's been others who've become more busy with family or work, so they are still friends but there's the loss of spending time with them for those reasons and because of my current limitations listed previously.

4 hours ago, Onmyway said:

Post new message:

I am so glad that you are getting at least some relief and subtle improvement and managing to make progress on projects. This is good news. I think there shouldn't be an issue with increasing magnesium, very few people have sensitivities to it. However, I'd hold off on the multivitamin. On average multivitamins are not shown to have a benefit so if you're eating well, getting sun etc. I would even cut out the one that you are taking now as some MVs can contain large amounts of D and Bs that may be activating to sensitive systems. Probiotics should be OK in my experience.

Thanks! Today is not so good: Loud noise from neighbors yard care woke me up before I would have liked, and prevented me from getting back to sleep. 😡

I'm eating healthy but I don't know if I'm getting all the required nutrients from my diet as I only eat the same 3 meals at this point. If I'm being activated by the MV, then I'm used to the activation and have been able to progress despite it. I guess the other half would be the last thing to try adding back in.

Thanks so much for all the help and support! ❤️

March 16, 2022

Update: 10 months post Venlafaxine CT - 5.5 months 50% Clonazepam cut

I think (hope) I'm coming out of the wave of the last 2 weeks. Yesterday was a pretty good day in terms of overall score but I had a lot of fatigue. I think my old probiotics went bad and were making everything worse, so I ordered a new box and am keeping them in the refrigerator now. Diarhea is better, and I'm back to previous levels of anxiety/aka. Trying to get a little work done everyday but sometimes its not much at all. Continued decrease of income is still very concerning and depressing.

Unmentioned symptoms remain unchanged from previous month so I won't list them.

March 16, 2022

@Knosretep

Good to hear a bit of progress.

Take it gently,

OD

March 17, 2022

@OldDodgy

Thanks for the support! Hope you're seeing some windows over there!

March 25, 2022

On 3/16/2022 at 7:39 AM, Knosretep said:

Update: 10 months post Venlafaxine CT - 5.5 months 50% Clonazepam cut

I think (hope) I'm coming out of the wave of the last 2 weeks. Yesterday was a pretty good day in terms of overall score but I had a lot of fatigue. I think my old probiotics went bad and were making everything worse, so I ordered a new box and am keeping them in the refrigerator now. Diarhea is better, and I'm back to previous levels of anxiety/aka. Trying to get a little work done everyday but sometimes its not much at all. Continued decrease of income is still very concerning and depressing.

Unmentioned symptoms remain unchanged from previous month so I won't list them.

I hope the window is continuing @Knosretep

It feels scary with reduced income, I am sure. However, I try to think of all of this as temporary. Do your best for the moment. In due time you will feel much better and will be able to earn more.

March 27, 2022

Thanks @Onmyway

The window has continued and my symptoms are down, but my mood is still low.

I think I need to start going to bed later became I don't sleep for quite a while and laying in bed ruminating doesn't help.

March 27, 2022

@Knosretepgood to hear about the continued window. Is the low mood related to anxiety or more depression/sadness. Can you apply some CBT techniques to them?

I did end up changing my sleeping schedule though in my case I also have delayed sleep onset (longer circadian rhythm (?) length). My mood is generally quite bad in the mornings and gets better most days towards the end of the day so I end up staying late at night until I absolutely can't keep my eyes open. So I am all in favor of doing what you need to.

Regarding the ruminations, mine are in the morning. Once I wake up in terror in the morning I stay in bed hoping to fall back asleep which almost never happens and in the meantime ruminate. Getting up and doing things usually helps. In your case just not going to bed until you absolutely have to might help as well.

When are you taking your downer meds - Clonazepam, trazodone and mirtazapine? How long do they take before they make you sleepy? Once you get to sleep, do you sleep well? Are there times when you don't ruminate? What's different about those times?

March 28, 2022

17 hours ago, Onmyway said:

@Knosretepgood to hear about the continued window. Is the low mood related to anxiety or more depression/sadness. Can you apply some CBT techniques to them?

@Onmyway

My anxiety has been pretty minimal the last 2 weeks, so the low mood is related to depression, which I think is directly related to my worsening sleep. I'm trying to employ all the CBT techniques that I know from youtube videos, etc. Mostly I just try to tell myself that this is a temporary thing and my sleep will improve with time and my depression will fade. There were a couple days in the past 2 weeks my anhedonia lifted a little and I had some interest in playing some video games and even tried watching a movie (Minions) which I made halfway through before becoming disinterested.

17 hours ago, Onmyway said:

I did end up changing my sleeping schedule though in my case I also have delayed sleep onset (longer circadian rhythm (?) length). My mood is generally quite bad in the mornings and gets better most days towards the end of the day so I end up staying late at night until I absolutely can't keep my eyes open. So I am all in favor of doing what you need to.

Last night I stayed up a bit later before trying to go to sleep and so there was less time to lay there and think about things. I think I will push that even further and do like you do, where I can hardly keep my eyes open before going to my room to go to sleep. That's kinda what I used to do before WD....would watch a show until I was dozing off before putting on my mask and ear plugs and going to sleep, usually pretty quickly.

17 hours ago, Onmyway said:

Regarding the ruminations, mine are in the morning. Once I wake up in terror in the morning I stay in bed hoping to fall back asleep which almost never happens and in the meantime ruminate. Getting up and doing things usually helps. In your case just not going to bed until you absolutely have to might help as well.

When are you taking your downer meds - Clonazepam, trazodone and mirtazapine? How long do they take before they make you sleepy? Once you get to sleep, do you sleep well? Are there times when you don't ruminate? What's different about those times?

I take 1/2 of my Clonazepam, Trazodone, and 1/2 of Mirtazapine when I go to my room to go to bed. They don't make me feel drowsy at all anymore. As I lay there I no longer feel sleepy even if I was yawning earlier. So I'm 100% awake when I fall asleep, there's no feeling of drifting off. I don't look at the clock but I would guess its at least 1+ hour before I fall asleep lately. Before it was a lot less, sometimes even within 10-15 minutes of going to bed.

I have extended dreams every night now and I wake up roughly 4 hours after whenever I fall asleep feeling like I didn't sleep at all. It just feels like whatever my thoughts were before sleeping turn into the dream story and then I wake up fully awake with my own thoughts again. I take my 1/2 Mirtazapine dose then and usually fall back asleep fairly quickly, but also have no feeling of drifting off again.

My 2nd sleep is the same as the 1st.....long extended dreams and then waking up feeling like I didn't even sleep. My 2nd sleep is about 4 hours as well. I also try to go back to sleep because I don't want to face the day, but like you it almost never happens.

There are times that I don't ruminate while laying in bed waiting to sleep and instead think about future tapering and being healed. I think what's different about those times was how I felt during the day and the overall level of depression that I'm feeling. If I have some negative interaction or experience during the day then that usually carries over and colors my nightly thoughts before sleep. If I have a few good days of low symptoms and no negative things happen then I think how I'm healing and will be able to taper soon and that gets me excited and keeps me up later.

March 29, 2022

Want to do an update here as a reminder, and to get your thoughts @Onmyway

Just after writing this last post I was hit by a wave of fatigue that sent me to the couch for hours, and has given me months old levels of anxiety with chest tightness and increased headache, tinnitus, etc. Its only now subsiding a day later, and I'm pretty sure the cause was my eating on Sunday. I ate breakfast around 10:30-11am, and then didn't eat again until around 5-5:30pm, which was delivery bowl of noodles and pork. I had salmon for dinner, and then another left over noodle bowl, followed by a late snack of buttered whole wheat bread.

My histamine intolerance is becoming intolerable and I can't trust eating anything not cooked here at home. I can't go anywhere for more than a few hours because I get hungry every 3-4 hours. This is really making me consider starting tapering Mirtazapine very slowly even though I'm feeling generally pretty unwell overall still. It was going to be my last drug to taper off, but this side effect is really getting bad. I didn't have this last year or even earlier this year and this was the last drug added known to cause problems like this. I'm also just very bored of eating the same limited meals every day, and I don't think that its helping my sleep anymore.

The Mirtazapine pills never cut evenly even after buying a new pill cutter, so I think this might help with overall stabilization, even if I just taper down a little bit so that I'm getting a consistent amount despite initially unevenly cut pills. I would get a gemini scale and use a nail file as it sounds like liquid tapering soltabs isn't an ideal method.

@OldDodgy You already completed a Mirtazapine taper. Maybe you have some thoughts about this?

Thanks for your input!

March 29, 2022

@Knosretep

re mirtazipine

As it has a long have life I didn’t worry about accurately using a hobby knife initially because I knew that by using the other “near half” two days running I was doing ok.
I was even comfortable halving a 7.5. However I don’t think this is the recommended method and there is a tapering guide for mirtazipine hereabouts.

When I was fed up with cutting I bullied my doc into providing the 15mg per ml solution and using a one ml syringe took it from there.

Below 3.75 I did struggle and had to partially reinstate for a few days. Slow is essential as you get lower.

These are just my observations. I would never give firm advice as that is the remit of the mods.

But of course I wish you well!,

OD

March 29, 2022

5 minutes ago, OldDodgy said:

@Knosretep

re mirtazipine

As it has a long have life I didn’t worry about accurately using a hobby knife initially because I knew that by using the other “near half” two days running I was doing ok.
I was even comfortable halving a 7.5. However I don’t think this is the recommended method and there is a tapering guide for mirtazipine hereabouts.

When I was fed up with cutting I bullied my doc into providing the 15mg per ml solution and using a one ml syringe took it from there.

Below 3.75 I did struggle and had to partially reinstate for a few days. Slow is essential as you get lower.

These are just my observations. I would never give firm advice as that is the remit of the mods.

But of course I wish you well!,

OD

Thanks for the super quick reply @OldDodgy

You may have already described about your reduction, so please forgive my poor memory if so.

Did you notice a correlated drop in histamine symptoms as you tapered, or was there a substantial delay before you saw any improvement? Or, are you still dealing with sensitivity?

I remember you mentioning the DAO but can't remember if that was something you were still taking or just had taken.

Thanks again!

March 29, 2022

@Knosretep

As you know mirtazipine is an antihistamine.
So in reduction I did find I was bowel intolerant of histamine rich foods.

I am still intolerant of histamine rich food 15 months off

We are not supposed to recommend supplements methinks -)). !

OD

Edited March 29, 2022 by OldDodgy
Missed a paragraph

March 29, 2022

13 minutes ago, OldDodgy said:

@Knosretep

As you know mirtazipine is an antihistamine.
So in reduction I did find I was bowel intolerant of histamine rich foods.

I am still intolerant of histamine rich food 15 months off

We are not supposed to recommend supplements methinks -)). !

OD

@OldDodgy Thanks for letting me know.

Sorry to hear. That's disappointing. 😕

I guess I should start looking for more recipes for low histamine meals.

March 29, 2022

@Knosretep

We don't recommend supplements on here because of the nervous system being so sensitive. But 2 that do help that we suggest. If you want to try one in a small amount and wait a few days before trying the other.

Magnesium

Omega-3 Fish Oil

Also, you may want to take a look at this page regarding histamine diets.

March 29, 2022

33 minutes ago, Frogie said:

@Knosretep

We don't recommend supplements on here because of the nervous system being so sensitive. But 2 that do help that we suggest. If you want to try one in a small amount and wait a few days before trying the other.

Magnesium

Omega-3 Fish Oil

Also, you may want to take a look at this page regarding histamine diets.

Hi @Frogie

Thanks for the link! There's a ton of information there to read though!

I'm already taking both Magnesium and Fish oil.

March 29, 2022

@Knosretep

I hope the link helps. There is a ton of information to follow.

Hope the magnesium and omega is also helping you.

March 29, 2022

@Knosretep I was wondering if you have tried listening to white noises when you go to bed?

I have a app on my phone I usually put on my white noise which is a blend of piano and rain, set the timer for 1-2 hours and close my eyes........Sometimes I tell myself that thinking about things is over for the day and now it's rest time.......It sounds like you are getting a fare amount of sleep.

Is it about 2x 4 hour stretches? Even if you are not sleeping sound you are at least sleeping and the time passes lol

Hang in there........Someday we will be healed from these drugs and it will be a distant memory.

March 30, 2022

11 hours ago, Greatful said:

@Knosretep I was wondering if you have tried listening to white noises when you go to bed?

Hi @Greatful, thanks for stopping by again.

Yes, I have a white noise app on my phone and had been listening to rain on a tent roof. I haven't listened for a while because now I also use a fan to help the AC at night keep me cool and it's a bit loud, but maybe my brain is missing the rain sound.

11 hours ago, Greatful said:

I have a app on my phone I usually put on my white noise which is a blend of piano and rain, set the timer for 1-2 hours and close my eyes........Sometimes I tell myself that thinking about things is over for the day and now it's rest time.......It sounds like you are getting a fare amount of sleep.

Is it about 2x 4 hour stretches?

I think the first sleep is about 4 hours, but sometimes (like last night) I wake up earlier the 2nd sleep, but I can usually fall back asleep when that happens.

11 hours ago, Greatful said:

Even if you are not sleeping sound you are at least sleeping and the time passes lol

Yes, agree with this. Getting unrestful sleep is better than laying awake all night for sure.

11 hours ago, Greatful said:

Hang in there........Someday we will be healed from these drugs and it will be a distant memory.

Yes we will. Great to see you've resumed your taper and are continuing to make cuts. I hope you can keep the pace and be off your Lexapro soon!

March 30, 2022

6 hours ago, Knosretep said:

18 hours ago, Greatful said:

Hang in there........Someday we will be healed from these drugs and it will be a distant memory.

This isn't my thread but thanks for that @Greatful I needed to hear that today.

March 30, 2022

1 hour ago, Blossom71 said:

This isn't my thread but thanks for that @Greatful I needed to hear that today.

Sorry to hear you're having a tough day @Blossom71 I hope tomorrow treats you better.

April 16, 2022

Update: 11 months post Venlafaxine CT - 6.5 months 50% Clonazepam cut,

I guess I shouldn't have waited so long to post. The first week of month 10 was tied for my best week so far, and then it was like a flip switched and things were bad the next day and haven't stopped.

At first I thought it was because I skipped a meal on that Sunday and then ate delivery food for 2 meals, but as the days continued to be bad I knew it was more than just that. I'd eaten that same delivery a few weeks earlier and didn't get such a reaction like a wave of many days. So for 3 weeks now I've been in a bad way.

My symptoms like headaches and tinnitus which were fading to be almost not existent on some days now show up everyday again, and I've also got a new symptom of flu-like effects. My burning legs have also been happening much more frequently and with more intensity. My stomach seems to be getting progressively worse. Akathisia has come back and is happening more and more.

In my desperation to feel better, I tried incorporating 1/2 Vitamin C pill, and also just started adding an extra 1/4 multivitamin at dinner the past couple days because I've been having so much diarhea again that I'm wondering if I'm just not absorbing the vitamins from my food. I also wonder if because of the diarhea that maybe my medication isn't getting absorbed and I'm in extra withdrawal. I guess that I was having a lot of diarhea before I started taking the probiotics and my weekly scores were also about as bad.

I had started a daily microtaper of Clonazepam after the first good week of the month, but I'm gonna put that on hold. I was barely shaving anything off the pills because the initial one I weighed was 157mg and some are only 152mg and I'm at 150mg right now. At first it felt very empowering to finally take action in reducing my drug burden, but now I don't want anything that could be contributing to this recent decline.

So yeah, I'm really scared and unsure about what's going on...much like my first few posts. I wanna say this is just a wave, but I've never had a wave like this last so long and be so consistent. It seems like the probiotics don't work anymore, or my body has become so intolerant of foods that everything I eat is causing a reaction and increase of symptoms and overpowering the benefit of them. Trying my best to stay positive but this is really distressing.

April 16, 2022

Hi @Knosretep,

I am so sorry to hear that you have been in a bad way. This sounds really hard. Are there any parts of the day that feel better?

I am trying hard to think what can help. I will just put forward a few things and see if they relate.

Have you changed any of the medicine supplier/formulation? Levels of bioavailability/absorption can vary by up to 20% among various medicines in the US, not sure what the rules are in Thailand.

For the stomach upset, make sure that you are taking a electrolyte pills - you must be dehydrated as well which can't be good for your body.

Have you considered cutting the magnesium and the vit C? Both can cause stomach upset. You can then try to get the magnesium through epsom salt baths (even foot baths help) or magnesium oil/lotion.

Did you get tested for any stomach issues. Last year I had stomach upset that I attributed to Covid/withdrawal but it turned out that I had an H-Pylori infection. Lost 8kg in 6 weeks!!! GP ignored them and so I went and got myself a stool test from Amazon which came back positive. A course of antibiotics cleared it right up.

I don't know much about the food issues as I haven't had them in the way that you have had so can't help there but I'm sure you have already devoured anything related to food on the forums.

I know some people use music for hyperalertness, wonder if you can try it.

How is your sleep?

I am sure that there is something specific behind this and as we investigate we can figure it out. There is no reason to lose hope. Even if it is just a wave, you know what follows every wave - a nice window. You are very much due for yours and I hope that it comes soon. I will post with any new ideas.

I don't like recommending supplements but I know how awful akathisia is and I have liked an occasional ashwagandha and lemon balm tea (Mindful Moments Teas from the UK Sainsbury's Mindful Moment Infusion x20 36g | Sainsbury's (sainsburys.co.uk)). I wouldn't take the supplements in pill form or if you do you can do tiny, tiny amounts. I just steep my tea for 20 sec. You can probably recreate it in some ways there.

My thoughts are with you. I know how hard this is and you will get through it. Remember this - it is your body's way of healing.

I like rereading this when I am suffering and lose hope.

What is happening in your brain? - Symptoms and self-care - Surviving Antidepressants

Hang in there!
OMW

April 16, 2022

4 hours ago, Onmyway said:

Hi @Knosretep,

I am so sorry to hear that you have been in a bad way. This sounds really hard.

Hi @Onmyway

Thank you for responding so quickly! I know you have a lot going on right now so I really appreciate it!

4 hours ago, Onmyway said:

Are there any parts of the day that feel better?

I'm still getting nightly windows but they are happening later and later, last night it wasn't until after my nightly shower and into bed that the anxiety/fear finally subsided.

4 hours ago, Onmyway said:

I am trying hard to think what can help. I will just put forward a few things and see if they relate.

Have you changed any of the medicine supplier/formulation?

Hmm, I did go to the Dr. on the 28th to get a refill of Clonazepam and started on the new pills less than a week later. They look the same but I guess it's possible they are a different source.

4 hours ago, Onmyway said:

Levels of bioavailability/absorption can vary by up to 20% among various medicines in the US, not sure what the rules are in Thailand.

For the stomach upset, make sure that you are taking a electrolyte pills - you must be dehydrated as well which can't be good for your body.

Okay, I drink lots of water but I haven't been taking any kind of electrolyte.

4 hours ago, Onmyway said:

Have you considered cutting the magnesium and the vit C? Both can cause stomach upset. You can then try to get the magnesium through epsom salt baths (even foot baths help) or magnesium oil/lotion.

I will cut the Vit C since I just started it and move the magnesium to dinner, and then reduce/eliminate it if this continues.

4 hours ago, Onmyway said:

Did you get tested for any stomach issues. Last year I had stomach upset that I attributed to Covid/withdrawal but it turned out that I had an H-Pylori infection. Lost 8kg in 6 weeks!!! GP ignored them and so I went and got myself a stool test from Amazon which came back positive. A course of antibiotics cleared it right up.

Not yet. I will try these other changes first and see if it makes a difference.

4 hours ago, Onmyway said:

I don't know much about the food issues as I haven't had them in the way that you have had so can't help there but I'm sure you have already devoured anything related to food on the forums.

Yes, sticking to the same meals and bland as possible when I almost never eat outside home.

4 hours ago, Onmyway said:

I know some people use music for hyperalertness, wonder if you can try it.

How is your sleep?

About the same. Getting to bed around 1 and probably asleep by 2. Wake up once, take my 2nd half of Mirtazapine, and sleep till 9-9:30.

4 hours ago, Onmyway said:

I am sure that there is something specific behind this and as we investigate we can figure it out. There is no reason to lose hope. Even if it is just a wave, you know what follows every wave - a nice window. You are very much due for yours and I hope that it comes soon. I will post with any new ideas.

Thanks so much!

4 hours ago, Onmyway said:

I don't like recommending supplements but I know how awful akathisia is and I have liked an occasional ashwagandha and lemon balm tea (Mindful Moments Teas from the UK Sainsbury's Mindful Moment Infusion x20 36g | Sainsbury's (sainsburys.co.uk)). I wouldn't take the supplements in pill form or if you do you can do tiny, tiny amounts. I just steep my tea for 20 sec. You can probably recreate it in some ways there.

My thoughts are with you. I know how hard this is and you will get through it. Remember this - it is your body's way of healing.

I like rereading this when I am suffering and lose hope.

What is happening in your brain? - Symptoms and self-care - Surviving Antidepressants

Hang in there!
OMW

I just reread the post again, it's a great one.

Hope you're doing well!

April 18, 2022

Hi @Knosretep

how are you doing? Are any of the symptoms improving?

For the H-Pylori kit I used this. I am sure you can get a similar one from a pharmacy in Thailand. Or online. I got the one with two tests in it because the tests don't always work well - my first one was a dud. It's the same principle as the antigen tests for Covid except done on a stool sample. If positive your doctor can redo in a proper lab to make sure. H-Pylori is endemic everywhere so it is not hard to get it from eating at a restaurant. It is even possible that someone in your household has it in an asymptomatic way. Your symptoms sound like mine when I had it. It doesn't mean that they can't be from the withdrawal - serotonin is everywhere and a very large percentage of it in your stomach, so they very much can be from withdrawal but if it is not, then you can easily eliminate them with a course of antibiotics. I worried that I would be sensitive to the antibiotics but I wasn't surprisingly (I avoided one of the more problematic ones). If you do have it, pls let me know so I can recommend the proper regimen - NICE has a protocol that I followed (made my GP follow).

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Stomach-Ulcer-Test-Helicobacter-Pylori/dp/B07BGCH9L9/ref=sr_1_2?crid=2513UG62EMJYZ&keywords=h-pylori+test&qid=1650240323&sprefix=h-pylo%2Caps%2C259&sr=8-2

As for the clonazepam, you want to look at the producer (Teva, Mylan are common generics producers) and want to stick to the same one. Since you've been on this one for two - three weeks now, it might be worth just sticking with this producer for the future. If they look the same they are likely the same producer but you may want to check. I am so worried about this I make my pharmacy order the exact same producer every time for the liquid citalopram. A 20% difference would be huge at these low levels.

Another thing when eating outside is the use of MSG, some people become sensitive to it during withdrawal. I think I am - I am not super careful in avoiding it but try to order things without it if I am at a restaurant though you can't always know as it is in everything.

I would recommend that you take some rehydration salts every day as long as the stomach problems continue esp the diarrhea. Potassium loss can actually cause/exacerbate mental issues. And unless you have heart and kidney issues you should be ok with taking rehydration salts (or gatorade/powerade). You may want to consult with a doctor/pharmacist just in case to be extra safe.

https://www.livestrong.com/article/250246-the-psychological-effects-of-low-potassium/

I am hoping you are feeling better soon.
OMW

April 18, 2022

6 hours ago, Onmyway said:

Hi @Knosretep

how are you doing? Are any of the symptoms improving?

For the H-Pylori kit I used this. I am sure you can get a similar one from a pharmacy in Thailand. Or online. I got the one with two tests in it because the tests don't always work well - my first one was a dud. It's the same principle as the antigen tests for Covid except done on a stool sample. If positive your doctor can redo in a proper lab to make sure. H-Pylori is endemic everywhere so it is not hard to get it from eating at a restaurant. It is even possible that someone in your household has it in an asymptomatic way. Your symptoms sound like mine when I had it. It doesn't mean that they can't be from the withdrawal - serotonin is everywhere and a very large percentage of it in your stomach, so they very much can be from withdrawal but if it is not, then you can easily eliminate them with a course of antibiotics. I worried that I would be sensitive to the antibiotics but I wasn't surprisingly (I avoided one of the more problematic ones). If you do have it, pls let me know so I can recommend the proper regimen - NICE has a protocol that I followed (made my GP follow).

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Stomach-Ulcer-Test-Helicobacter-Pylori/dp/B07BGCH9L9/ref=sr_1_2?crid=2513UG62EMJYZ&keywords=h-pylori+test&qid=1650240323&sprefix=h-pylo%2Caps%2C259&sr=8-2

As for the clonazepam, you want to look at the producer (Teva, Mylan are common generics producers) and want to stick to the same one. Since you've been on this one for two - three weeks now, it might be worth just sticking with this producer for the future. If they look the same they are likely the same producer but you may want to check. I am so worried about this I make my pharmacy order the exact same producer every time for the liquid citalopram. A 20% difference would be huge at these low levels.

Another thing when eating outside is the use of MSG, some people become sensitive to it during withdrawal. I think I am - I am not super careful in avoiding it but try to order things without it if I am at a restaurant though you can't always know as it is in everything.

I would recommend that you take some rehydration salts every day as long as the stomach problems continue esp the diarrhea. Potassium loss can actually cause/exacerbate mental issues. And unless you have heart and kidney issues you should be ok with taking rehydration salts (or gatorade/powerade). You may want to consult with a doctor/pharmacist just in case to be extra safe.

https://www.livestrong.com/article/250246-the-psychological-effects-of-low-potassium/

I am hoping you are feeling better soon.
OMW

Hi @Onmyway

Thank you for checking back in with me. I've seen a slight reprieve from some symptoms, and a good improvement in diarhea that makes me think what's going on is mostly related to mast cell activation and histamine intolerance. The theory is that your histamine bucket fills up and overflows or is trigged by mast cell activation and basically dumps into your system causing havoc. It seems like many people on Mirtazapine suffer this because it affects the H1 receptor so much that it clogs it up/downregulates it and the body can't deal with high histamine foods anymore.

I've spent the past few days inside just basically sitting on the couch resting, because right now its both extremely hot out, and the air is so bad because local farmers are burning their fields. Both these factors can help trigger mast cell activation, and I also think that oatmeal has been irritating my gut, even though its supposed to be on the safe list for histamine. I've cut it out since my last posting, along with the Vit C and extra evening 1/4 multivitamin. I've also been cooking more meals myself, as before my wife would often cook a big or double portion of food and I'd eat leftovers, which are also a no-no for histamine sensitivity. I didn't cut the magnesium out because these other changes have seemed to make a noticeable difference in diarrhea the first day. The symptoms that have let up a bit are those that are related to histamine issues.

I'll continue the diet alterations and hope things at least hold steady if not keep improving. I've got 2 boxes of electrolyte packets I ordered to use in case things go bad again.

----------------------

Seeing as what seems to be an ever increasing intolerance to foods, (When I first started Mirtazapine I was eating oatmeal daily) and mast cell issues, I feel really stuck in regards to this medication, almost like one who had an adverse reaction.

I wanted to reduce the Clonazepam first to 50% so I could just break a single 0.5mg tablet in half. I hate going to the hospital to get my refills and being reminded of what's happened to me since I stepped foot there, and also because it seems like benzos have a shorter period until going paradoxical and causing the symptoms they are supposed to help. I know SA generally recommends tapering the most activating AD first (Sertraline), but this Mirtazapine side effect is so debilitating and limiting that I feel like I have to get rid of it as soon as possible now.

While it doesn't help me fall asleep initially or keep me asleep through the night, I think it does help keep me sleeping longer. I've tried holding off on taking the 2nd half of my pill until morning, but the 2 times I did that I ended up waking up again shortly after the first time. So, I know that when I go to taper it, its most likely to have a negative affect on sleep.

Should I switch to tapering Mirtazapine?

I still have no idea what to do. 😕

Thanks so much for your help and concern! ❤️

April 19, 2022

I've seen further improvements in anxiety today, and burning sensation is less intense and back to legs only. On Friday it had moved up to my left arm as well. Flu-like symptoms are holding strong. Mood is better, and I'm back to working.

I was mistaken in my last post, and I'd actually stopped the Magnesium. I guess I'll take a break from it for a bit and see how it goes.

About the tapering, I've continued to taper the Clonazepam as before, and will just continue until I hit 0.5mg, then switch to Mirtazapine. I've taken a look again at Elbee's taper, as he was on nearly the same drugs as I am, and saw he bounced around a bit, but basically did the same thing and tapered the Clonazepam down a bit before working on the Mirtazapine and reducing that to zero before going back to Clonazepam, then tackling the remaining Sertraline. I remember reading a post Alto said where it doesn't really matter which drug you taper first, the important thing is to go slow and listen to your body.

May 3, 2022

Hi @Knosretep,

how are you doing now?

It is true that when you are on a cocktail it might make sense to switch tapering between the various drugs as some of them are downers and some of them are uppers so the effect on your mood may be 'disbalanced'. In general we recommend first tapering the more activating drug - i.e. sertraline in this case, but you are on 3 downers so I think you might be ok by going off of clonazepam, esp if you are worried about it.

Let me know how things are going

OMW

May 3, 2022

1 hour ago, Onmyway said:

Hi @Knosretep,

how are you doing now?

It is true that when you are on a cocktail it might make sense to switch tapering between the various drugs as some of them are downers and some of them are uppers so the effect on your mood may be 'disbalanced'. In general we recommend first tapering the more activating drug - i.e. sertraline in this case, but you are on 3 downers so I think you might be ok by going off of clonazepam, esp if you are worried about it.

Let me know how things are going

OMW

Hi @Onmyway Thanks for reaching out to check on me. I hope that means you're feeling better. 🙂

I'm doing well. I tapered for 18 days before the symptoms got too much and then I held, but there was still more WD that piled up, so it was a very rough 4-5 days before things settled down again. I've been holding since. Even though I only tapered for 18 days, it made a noticeable dent in the pills and every time I file the pills down and see that dent, it feels good.

Last 2 weeks I've been back to trendline, and I've also been able to stop taking my probiotic and haven't experienced any diarhea while sticking to this diet, so maybe that was a final flare up like they say symptoms do before disappearing. I also ate a small bit of cake for a friends birthday and then later ate a little bit of Indian food without any repercussions.

This week is looking really good so far and could possibly end up as a record week if things continue. I will wait till my wife's cycle is finished and then resume tapering at a slower rate, and do 3 weeks followed by a 1 week hold. Hopefully as I recover from the Venlafaxine CT I should be able to maintain that taper rate till I get to 0.5mg Clonazepam.

สู้สู้ (Su su - keep fighting!)

May 4, 2022

This sounds really good @Knosretep. I so hope your window continues unabated!

When you say you tapered for 18 days do you mean micro-micro taper? Maybe I should try that as well.

May 4, 2022

9 hours ago, Onmyway said:

This sounds really good @Knosretep. I so hope your window continues unabated!

When you say you tapered for 18 days do you mean micro-micro taper? Maybe I should try that as well.

Thanks @Onmyway

Yes, I was shaving 1mg more off a 150mg pill (0.5mg active ingredient) every other day, which equals out to 10% over 30 days.

I think I can only recommend if you know the rate you can handle, which you don't know until you go to fast.

I read many accounts of benzo tapers that failed multiple times before daily microtapering.

May 6, 2022

Well, that window was very short lived and a wave has taken it's place with horrible fatigue, akathisia, and depression. Yesterday I was mostly constrained to the couch, alternating between periods of twitching/shaking and crying bouts.

I hope when this wave passes that akathisia will finally be gone like the diarrhea seemed to last time.

Knosretep: don't know what to do - clonazepam and Zoloft and extras

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