Finding it difficult to speak / talk

[Kat66]

Is it just me or does anyone else find it really hard to literally have a conversation, push words out of your mouth? I don’t mean finding it hard to talk about how you’re feeling, I mean the physical act of speaking. I’ve always found this hard when in a depression episode but it WD it seems to be a lot more exaggerated. All I can do is grunt and go ‘uh-huh’, when spoken to, and I simply can’t have joined up, flowing conversations. I just wondered if anyone else can relate to this rather unpleasant symptom.

[Roserdl]

I had it happen early on.  Like I couldn't quite put words to my thoughts.  It was a weird block.  I could do it but it required effort. Like I had to force it out.  It went away though.

[Greatful]

@Kat66  Thank you for bring this up.  I have this pretty bad.  I think but to put the thoughts to words seems takes work. 

 I often feel like  drunk that can hardly talk LOL  If I can get going I can string a few sentences together. Do you ears get really sensitive too.?

 

[Mirtazapine20mg]

I loose my fluency. For me it is a thoughts-to-words impediment. 

[Kat66]

19 hours ago, Roserdl said:

I had it happen early on.  Like I couldn't quite put words to my thoughts.  It was a weird block.  I could do it but it required effort. Like I had to force it out.  It went away though.

I’m glad it went away for you. It is like a block you’re right. 

[Kat66]

19 hours ago, Mirtazapine20mg said:

I loose my fluency. For me it is a thoughts-to-words impediment. 

Sounds like the same thing. It’s a relief in a way to know others get this. I hope it improves for you.

[Kat66]

19 hours ago, Greatful said:

@Kat66  Thank you for bring this up.  I have this pretty bad.  I think but to put the thoughts to words seems takes work. 

 I often feel like  drunk that can hardly talk LOL  If I can get going I can string a few sentences together. Do you ears get really sensitive too.?

 

Sounds exactly like what I experience. Glad it’s not just me. My ears are sensitive to sudden noises generally anyway but super sensitive in WD.

[Ariel]

Hi @Kat66

See also this topic, some of the posts touch on what has been described:

 

[Kat66]

Thanks @Ariel I’ll check that out xx

[Ariel]

On 5/6/2022 at 7:12 PM, Ariel said:

In terms of verbal impulse control I've struggled with talking too much. It often feels like once I start speaking I can't stop. I find it pretty embarrassing to not be able to control myself. Especially since most of the time I have no particular desire to speak; I don't enjoy speaking. It's like if I open my mouth, speech production just takes on a life of its own and gets away from me. 

 

I've noticed a few aspects connected with this. I find that speech production -- the actual, physical act -- is very activating to my nervous system. I find it profoundly stressful. The neuromuscular effort required combined with the cognitive demands, and then on top off that the social context in which this takes place -- it's really all too much. My nervous system accelerates from 0 to 100 and suddenly I'm in hyperarousal, unable to pull back or stop, feeling out of control. And it takes a long time for me to wind back down again afterwards.

 

This pattern is classic for autonomic dysregulation. The underlying mechanisms and responses are not yet calibrated to work together in a smooth, supple way. It's all very fits and starts and jerks and crashes. When you really pick it apart, speech production is a wonderfully complex function that involves many simultaneous processes in the body across various systems. We take it for granted but it's quite marvelously impressive. Same goes for social interaction, both verbal and non-verbal. There are so, so many cues and signals being exchanged, so much information being processed responded to in real time. It's amazing! 

 

I think maybe, because we are fundamentally extremely social animals, communication and our experiences of/around/with it strike deep at the core of who we are -- identity, sense of self, how comfortable, uncomfortable we feel in the world, questions of belonging and safety. Because our ability to communicate effectively connects so essentially to our membership in a group, our social viability and thus our survival, any challenges in this area can be experienced as destabilizing. We might even subconsciously perceive such difficulties as potential threats to survival, activating some primal physiological mechanisms. I don't know, I'm just musing really, extrapolating from personal experience. I guess what I'm trying to get at is: it makes sense in every way if difficulties with verbal communication are anxiety-provoking. 

 

[Ariel]

On 5/6/2022 at 10:12 PM, Ariel said:

Throughout withdrawal, to varying extent, I have felt functionally impaired in the area of verbal communication, especially speech production. Sometimes it has felt like neuromuscular blockage, e.g. dealing with tight throat muscles that made sounds feel funny and full in my mouth; at time I felt like I might as well be gargling and gurgling everything came out so garbled (to my ears, anyway). Other times it felt more like not being able to find the right word on demand, or losing my train of thought mid-sentence. And a range of combinations of those. 

 

Once upon a time I used to work teaching foreign languages. It's normal for some learners to naturally progress faster in either spoken or written skills (very rarely both at the same pace). One's temperament (for lack of a better word) plays a role in each of these modes -- crudely put, speech production is more socially, on-the-spot performative, while writing is more of an internal process. Many of my students had a good level of written language but struggled in conversation and oral presentations. In those cases we'd often work on confidence, practicing speaking and doing casual exercises to help them relax. I'd suggest to them that it was not a knowledge issue so much as it was a performance issue -- speech production in real time in front of a live audience is absolutely a physical performance, and stressful. It requires cognitive processes to coordinate with neuromuscular function under perceived social scrutiny and pressure. Pretty intense. A lot of people feel more comfortable expressing themselves in writing than speaking, and one doesn't have to be a foreign language learner for that to apply. 

 

I mention this because it's something I thought about when I was at peak speaking challenge in withdrawal. In moments when I'd hit a wall looking for a word or struggling to articulate a thought, I would start to feel stressed. When that stress began to rise, it of course only became harder to express myself. I would remember how I'd learned to view speech production as a performance, and I sure was having performance issues!

 

To this day I find speech production to be quite taxing. Something as benign as casual conversation, if it exceeds, let's say 5 minutes' duration, is highly activating for my system. Be it on the phone or in person, I start sweating profusely, sometimes get hot-cold chills and shivers, and can even start actually shaking. I find it difficult to control the volume of my voice, which tends to get louder the longer the stimulation continues. I'm accustomed to it now, and it is improving, but I still find it rather unpleasant and try to keep it to a minimum. 

 

[Ariel]

In addition to whatever complex chemical signaling is involved in regards to memory (word retrieval) and formulating thoughts and cognitive function related to verbal expression, I'm convinced there's a biomechanical, (neuro)muscular aspect to this as well. 

 

On 7/3/2022 at 7:14 PM, Kat66 said:

I don’t mean finding it hard to talk about how you’re feeling, I mean the physical act of speaking.

 

Yes. Based on my personal experience, I believe that in many cases the intense muscular tension WD can cause can effect the neck and throat muscles, thereby actually making it physically taxing to produce sound and speech. This tightness combined with the functional cognitive impairment can make regular spoken conversation quite a demanding feat. On top of all that, in WD we are often so hypersensitized to sensation, and so reactive neuro-emotionally, that while we are trying to produce words we may be feeling countless unusual sensations in our neck, throat, mouth, teeth, tongue, scalp, ears, etc. (not to mention other parts of our body), and reacting to those sensations, reacting to ourselves struggling to find words and speak them. Put it all together and this can make for one heck of an uncomfortable, potentially stressful experience. 

 

I have experimented with vocal exercises (e.g. vocal warm-ups as per youtube videos), humming, singing, facial muscle stretches, very gentle neck and head stretching exercises, gentle self-massage of neck, face, scalp, jaw. I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to be gentle. This is in part because the musculature is delicate, and in part because WD makes us so sensitive that if the body senses coercion, i.e. too much force, it can generate a counter-reaction of tensing up (defensive mechanism for self-protection). Gentle acupressure can also help. Any sort of gentle exercises to "open up the throat chakra", if one is looking for yoga-informed options. The idea is to encourage the throat and neck and jaw and face muscles to relax as much as possible. (All of these exercises will probably also benefit vagal tone, by the way. Bonus!) 

 

Extra tip: pelvic floor relaxation exercises and psoas release exercises can support relaxation and release in throat muscles. There is a strong connection. If it feels like tackling the throat, neck, face directly is a bit too full-on at the moment, one might try communicating with them indirectly via gentle pelvic floor body work and or psoas. Try to be aware of face, throat, neck while doing any other exercise, as well, since we sometimes unconsciously tense our faces and throats in response to bodily effort. Try to build up a practice of checking in throughout the day and inviting the muscles in your throat, jaw, neck, face to let go. 

 

This has gradually improved over the course of WD. It's still not where I might like it to be, but it's gotten much better. 

[Kat66]

Thanks @Ariel all this is very interesting, potentially useful and a lot to pick through. You've obviously thought a lot about what is actually going on. Thank you for sharing all your thoughts on it. I'm sure others will benefit from your wisdom too.

 

Nevertheless I sometimes wonder if it's just a case of 'I just don't want to talk' as I'm feeling depressed and withdrawn and this makes it hard to summon the motivation to talk - does that resonate with you? I'm curious to get to the root of this issue....overthinking/ruminating as usual!

 

 

[wantrelief]

51 minutes ago, Kat66 said:

Nevertheless I sometimes wonder if it's just a case of 'I just don't want to talk' as I'm feeling depressed and withdrawn and this makes it hard to summon the motivation to talk - does that resonate with you?

This definitely resonates with me.  For me I think it is related to depression/demotivation/apathy as well as difficulty concentrating.  I have a lot of trouble at times fully listening to the other person speaking and get this overwhelming feeling of just wanting to get away from the conversation.  As an aside it is difficult for me to concentrate on reading as well.  All of this gets a bit better in the evenings and I did experience a long window last year where these symptoms disappeared so there is hope!  In the meantime though it is all really challenging to live like this.  You are not alone, Kat.

[Ariel]

1 hour ago, Kat66 said:

Nevertheless I sometimes wonder if it's just a case of 'I just don't want to talk' as I'm feeling depressed and withdrawn and this makes it hard to summon the motivation to talk - does that resonate with you?

 

Hi @Kat66

These things are not necessarily mutually exclusive. It might be a case of "I just don't want to talk," and also the other underlying bodily aspects may be present, and these may inform each other in a feedback loop. 

 

1 hour ago, Kat66 said:

I'm curious to get to the root of this issue....overthinking/ruminating as usual!

 

I can relate to your curiosity. At the same time, there is so much about WD we will never understand. Our monkey minds love anything they perceive to be a problem as it provides an excuse to go into fix-it mode. In fact, the monkey mind so loves a problem that it's willing to turn almost anything into a problem, even when it isn't necessarily one. To a hammer everything looks like a nail.

 

We can amuse and distract ourselves all day long talking about what may or may not be going on. This may or may not be productive. If it's entertaining, great. If it feeds and reinforces anxiety, rumination, obsessive thinking, not helpful.

 

Ultimately, what I find to be most useful, is to pay attention to the embodied experience of something -- a practice of listening to the body -- and then do my best to respond accordingly, without judgment or undue analysis. So if I don't want to talk, I just don't talk, and that's that. It is what it is. 

 

In WD many of us feel an increased need for solitude, silence, stillness. It's valuable to heed that need when it makes itself known. It's okay to give ourselves plenty of time and space to be alone and be quiet and not engage socially when we don't feel like it. If you feel like being alone there's nothing wrong with that. 

 

I guess I'm wondering whether you find this symptom unpleasant due to the physical sensations you are experiencing, or whether the unpleasantness is more to do with your emotional reaction to the experience of the symptom. Are you judging yourself? Are you telling yourself a story, for example that you "should" be able to participate in conversations "normally"? Are you blaming yourself for how things are, what you can and cannot do? Are you putting pressure on yourself? Feeling "inadequate"? etc.

 

I don't know whether any of that's the case, but if you are judging yourself, I'd suggest letting go and beginning to unlearn that habit. Explore ways to embrace and accept yourself, your needs, where you're at. Now is as good a time as any to start learning and practicing self-love and self-acceptance. Acceptance and Hope

 

The body knows what it needs (in order) to heal and is continuously communicating with us. We can practice tuning inward and listening. This isn't always easy, but WD affords us ample opportunity to practice; and it's an art that will accompany and serve us well for the rest of our lives.

 

And remember, this is temporary. It will pass. It gets better. 

Healing is happening all the time, even when we don't consciously feel it <3

 

In solidarity and support,

A.

[Kat66]

3 hours ago, wantrelief said:

This definitely resonates with me.  For me I think it is related to depression/demotivation/apathy as well as difficulty concentrating.  I have a lot of trouble at times fully listening to the other person speaking and get this overwhelming feeling of just wanting to get away from the conversation.  As an aside it is difficult for me to concentrate on reading as well.  All of this gets a bit better in the evenings and I did experience a long window last year where these symptoms disappeared so there is hope!  In the meantime though it is all really challenging to live like this.  You are not alone, Kat.

Oh @wantrelief I have trouble concentrating on the other person too, AND also focusing on reading, which is really annoying as reading is a great distraction. It is SO challenging living like this you’re so right. Sending you support and warm wishes xx

[wantrelief]

1 hour ago, Kat66 said:

Sending you support and warm wishes

Aw, thank you Kat.  I am sending the same right back at you! 💖

[Kat66]

On 7/6/2022 at 6:11 PM, Ariel said:

 

Hi @Kat66

These things are not necessarily mutually exclusive. It might be a case of "I just don't want to talk," and also the other underlying bodily aspects may be present, and these may inform each other in a feedback loop. 

 

 

I can relate to your curiosity. At the same time, there is so much about WD we will never understand. Our monkey minds love anything they perceive to be a problem as it provides an excuse to go into fix-it mode. In fact, the monkey mind so loves a problem that it's willing to turn almost anything into a problem, even when it isn't necessarily one. To a hammer everything looks like a nail.

 

We can amuse and distract ourselves all day long talking about what may or may not be going on. This may or may not be productive. If it's entertaining, great. If it feeds and reinforces anxiety, rumination, obsessive thinking, not helpful.

 

Ultimately, what I find to be most useful, is to pay attention to the embodied experience of something -- a practice of listening to the body -- and then do my best to respond accordingly, without judgment or undue analysis. So if I don't want to talk, I just don't talk, and that's that. It is what it is. 

 

In WD many of us feel an increased need for solitude, silence, stillness. It's valuable to heed that need when it makes itself known. It's okay to give ourselves plenty of time and space to be alone and be quiet and not engage socially when we don't feel like it. If you feel like being alone there's nothing wrong with that. 

 

I guess I'm wondering whether you find this symptom unpleasant due to the physical sensations you are experiencing, or whether the unpleasantness is more to do with your emotional reaction to the experience of the symptom. Are you judging yourself? Are you telling yourself a story, for example that you "should" be able to participate in conversations "normally"? Are you blaming yourself for how things are, what you can and cannot do? Are you putting pressure on yourself? Feeling "inadequate"? etc.

 

I don't know whether any of that's the case, but if you are judging yourself, I'd suggest letting go and beginning to unlearn that habit. Explore ways to embrace and accept yourself, your needs, where you're at. Now is as good a time as any to start learning and practicing self-love and self-acceptance. Acceptance and Hope

 

The body knows what it needs (in order) to heal and is continuously communicating with us. We can practice tuning inward and listening. This isn't always easy, but WD affords us ample opportunity to practice; and it's an art that will accompany and serve us well for the rest of our lives.

 

And remember, this is temporary. It will pass. It gets better. 

Healing is happening all the time, even when we don't consciously feel it ❤️

 

In solidarity and support,

A.

Oh @Ariel your wisdom is so comforting. My monkey mind will turn anything into an issue that needs ruminating on endlessly. I've been doing it for so long it takes someone to point it out for me to even realise I'm doing it! I am learning that listening to the body is perhaps the most important thing we can do regardless of whether we're in WD or not. Listening to our ruminating overthinking minds gets us into a lot of trouble! 

 

I've always been a quiet person within a group but in WD all my mind does is judge me tenfold for not being able to participate in conversations 'normally' - so you're right, I judge myself hugely for somehow being 'inadequate' in some way.

 

I like the way you see WD as an opportunity to practise listening to our needs and accepting ourselves. This is becoming more and more obvious the longer this tedious process continues.

 

Sending love and support xx

 

 

 

 

 

[jon1]

I can definitely relate to this.

 

In recent weeks I’ve definitely withdrawn into myself a lot more. I seem to be okay with short conversations with shop assistants etc, but anything more and I’m a mess. I’m barely communicating beyond grunts with my partner. It’s even started to make me angry when people try to talk to me, or expect me to listen. It’s horrible. I’ve always been a chatterbox.

 

This seems to have gone hand in hand with a very low noise tolerance. Kids screaming quite a distance away will stress me out no end. Any noise really.

[Greatful]

@jon1  Do you get pressure in your ears when the stimulation of noise, commotion are to much?  When it's really bad it feel like I am so wasted and can't form my words.  I can think thought but boy to put it to words and then talk.  To much work sometimes.  Just easier not to say anything.

[jon1]

@Greatful I haven’t noticed any pressure.

 

Yeah, there are many times when I want to tell my OH something but don’t, because it’s too tiring.

[Kat66]

On 7/12/2022 at 6:24 PM, jon1 said:

I seem to be okay with short conversations with shop assistants etc, but anything more and I’m a mess. I’m barely communicating beyond grunts with my partner. It’s even started to make me angry when people try to talk to me, or expect me to listen. It’s horrible. I’ve always been a chatterbox.

 

This seems to have gone hand in hand with a very low noise tolerance. Kids screaming quite a distance away will stress me out no end. Any noise really.

Check, check, and check. The slightest unexpected noise is like a 747 landing in my garden, and conversations with my husband are non existent really. Yes I get the anger too when I'm expected to converse. It's all too much effort.

 

On 7/12/2022 at 8:23 PM, Greatful said:

Just easier not to say anything.

Yep!

[jon1]

1 hour ago, Kat66 said:

Check, check, and check. The slightest unexpected noise is like a 747 landing in my garden, and conversations with my husband are non existent really. Yes I get the anger too when I'm expected to converse. It's all too much effort.

 

Yep!

Glad (although not glad for you!) that it’s not just me. I think the old cliche ‘assault on the senses’ sums it up really. Like my brain can’t process very much at all, so tries to shut it out.

 

I’ve found sticking in my AirPods and listening to white noise can give some relief, but I don’t want to rely on avoidance techniques, as they don’t help in the long run.

[Greatful]

Not sure it's avoidance per say.  How can we fight with the symptoms when we should really be accepting them and doing what we can to get by.  

Forcing things is not always helpful.  I guess learning when to try to do more and when to step back and take care of yourself.  I know when I can't take people talking around me and I start to panic and then my ears and head start building pressure and I want to rip them both off, that it might be time to back off and take care of myself. 😬 

 

[jon1]

14 hours ago, Greatful said:

Not sure it's avoidance per say.  How can we fight with the symptoms when we should really be accepting them and doing what we can to get by.  

Forcing things is not always helpful.  I guess learning when to try to do more and when to step back and take care of yourself.  I know when I can't take people talking around me and I start to panic and then my ears and head start building pressure and I want to rip them both off, that it might be time to back off and take care of myself. 😬 

 

 

Yeah, it's a balance isn't it? I guess I'm fearful of making the problem worse and making myself even more sensitive to sounds if I don't expose myself to them regularly enough.

 

My current nightmare is people using speakerphone for phone calls or video calls in public places, like transport and coffee shops. They tend to yell into their phone and then there's the awful squawky speaker noise from the person on the other end. I live in the middle of a busy city, and since we've emerged from the pandemic it feels like some people have forgotten boundaries of making noise in public.

 

I know my current state is making me far more sensitive to it, but I guess it's a problem we wouldn't have had to deal with just a few years ago.

[Kat66]

Speaking for myself, I believe deliberately exposing myself to too much stress will hamper my progress. WD is different from my usual depression, where I know that pushing myself safely will mean the depression lessens. WD feels more physical as well as emotional, so sitting quietly, and reducing stress from noise, not talking etc, feels like the right thing to do for my entire system, so it has the chance to heal. 

[jon1]

That’s a good point. I took my last dose 7 months ago, so I guess I’m battling frustration at still feeling symptoms (and wanting to be ‘normal’ again) with the reality of still having to look after myself.

[Kat66]

I totally get that @jon1. It must be incredibly frustrating to still be having symptoms long after your last dose, but I get the impression that happens a lot. How long did your taper last?

[jon1]

@Kat66  my taper lasted just under 2 years, but I did stop completely at 2mg, so that's probably a bit quick.

[LanaCoFireBird]

all this is definitely relatable. speaking feels especially hard: for me it feels more memory related the thoughts wash over me like waves and when it's the right time to speak in conversation, they are already gone and when I speak I struggle to recall them and am grasping at static pulling one word out of the air at a time, maybe finding some of them but much of it is lost and what comes out  is awkward and fragmented and it feels physically hard to voice the words I find.

many thoughts don't stay with me for very long and I miss the clarity and depth of being able to sit with things and engage in deep thought and conversation

 

It started midway into the lamictal but  has really intensified during the withdrawal. I'm wondering when and how to get this back or if I'll have to wait years. I really hope not.

[LanaCoFireBird]

14 hours ago, jon1 said:

@Kat66  my taper lasted just under 2 years, but I did stop completely at 2mg, so that's probably a bit quick.

I'm sorry yours has lingered so long. That's frustrating to have it linger and thoughts stuck inside

[jon1]

I think I’ve found a good analogy to describe how my hearing is being affected.

 

It’s like having a surround sound speaker system for your TV, with the main speaker in front of you, and a side/rear speaker on each side for the surround sound.

 

To me, it feels like the main front speaker volume has been turned down to 1, and the side/rear speakers have been turned up to 11.

 

So I can’t really hear, or keep my focus, on whatever I’m trying to pay attention to, because all of the other sounds around me - however insignificant - are overwhelming and crowding out what I want to focus on.

 

I’d always assumed it was other people’s sounds that were causing me the problem, but I popped into Ikea the other day and was there very early, so I was completely alone in the store.

 

Despite having no people around me, I was still hyper, hyper aware of every tiny noise. I was staring at the item I wanted to buy, but was still completely distracted by, well, nothing, and couldn’t focus.

 

I find myself looking around continually for sounds, someone having a conversation, on a phone, anything. At a guess I’d say it’s a form of anxiety trying to find a reason for existing.

 

I hope to god it ends soon. It’s ruining my life.