Basildev - Tapering off SSRIs

[basildev]

Hi Everyone,

 

time for an update:

 

It has been 2 months since I updosed from 11mg to 20 mg. During that time I dropped 1 mg for 5 days and I believe this made things worse.

 

So, technically I guess I've really been on a steady, constant dose of 20mg for 5 weeks.

 

The symptoms I had were:

 

1)insmonia;

2)hot flushes;

3)waking with anxiety;

4)ruminating thoughts on 'I'll never recover' and 'I'm going to get a life threatening illness due to lack of sleep'

 

 

I'm pleased to say that items 2,3 and 4 are no longer with me, although when I'm in a wave (as I am now), I still worry terribly that my sleep is never going to get back to normal.

 

Some stats on my sleep:

 

Week 1 averaged 7.3 hour per night;

Week 2 averaged 7.6 hours per night;

Week 3 averaged 8.0 hour per night;

Week 4 averaged 8.8 hours per night;

Week 5 averaged 8.3 hours per night

 

I know, I know....most of you are probably saying: 'you call THAT insmonia????' and compared to many people on this site I have nothing to complain about. BUT I'm comparing these results to the way I was when fully stabilized and getting 9.5 to 10 hours per night. So in my own mind, I still have a way to go.

 

I am disheartened this week, because in weeks 3 to 5 I began experiencing solid, consistent numbers per night - such as 8.5 hours 6 days in a row. During this time, I felt that my recover was becoming linear and that it would slowly and gradually get better.

 

Also, at least 2-3 nights per week I was getting 9, 9.5 and 10 hour stints (woohoo!)

 

Towards the end of last week my sleep gradually declined - from 9.5 to 8.3 to 8 to 8.

 

On Saturday night, even though I felt I was in a relative 'wave' (In the early days, I considered 8 hours to be a window, but now is the new wave - does that make sense???), I was crowing to my husband that at least I had 'turned a corner' and wasn't getting the 5.5 hour, 6 hour and even 7 hour nights of the past.

 

Then that night I had awful, broken sleep. Maximum 6.5 hours. Followed by 2 great nights (9.5 and 9) and then last night a 6.5 again.

 

So now I'm discouraged.

 

Am I getting better?

 

Am I getting worse?

 

Do I need a good slap??????

[Karma]

Hi Basildev,

 

Don't be discouraged ... I think you are getting better. Look at your post - items 2, 3 and 4 improved . I would take that as a definite sign that you are improving.

 

Your sleep is also improving, but you may be obsessing about your sleep a bit which is causing you to become discouraged and that may be throwing off your sleep. I think you need to acknowledge your overall progress.

 

Do you feel refreshed with the hours of sleep you are getting? If you feel refreshed, then that is what is important.

 

Karma

[basildev]

Hi Karma,

 

I don't feel refreshed unless I get at least 9 hours. That's how it's always been for me.

 

I hear what you're saying re obsessing but honestly, it doesn't make any difference whether I do or I don't. If I'm going to have a good nights sleep it seems to happen whether I'm worried about it or not - same deal with a bad night's sleep.

 

Thanks for your reassurance:)

[Altostrata]

Linear!!!?? Ha, you're having waves. That's normal.

 

Good to hear about the sleep improvements.

[basildev]

cool:)

[strawberry17]

I'm curious to know, how do you measure the amount of sleep you had so accurately? I mean I never know at what time I fell asleep and what time exactly I woke, I just know if I feel refreshed or if I had insomnia or a rough night.

[basildev]

Hi Strawb,

 

It's not exact. But I have a pretty good idea. So let's say I go to bed at a certain time. I usually know if I fall asleep within the 10 minute mark.

 

If I don't I can usually tell if it's half an hour as opposed to 2 hours laying awake.

 

I don't check the clock during the night (because that would just do my head in).

 

But when I wake in the morning I'll check the time. Then if I fall back asleep I'll kind of guestimate how long I fell asleep for.

 

It's not 100% and I'm always conservative in my estimate - that is, I'll round down instead of round up. If I think I've had a little over 8 hours sleep, maybe 8.5 but I'm not sure. I'll always record 8.

[tezza]

I believe you're getting better, too! Things are improving, waves should lessen.

[basildev]

thanks Tezza

 

xxx

[strawberry17]

OK thanks for the explanation! I too never look at a clock in the middle of the night, too depressing.

 

I believe from all you've written that you're getting better as well and you don't need a good slap you need a high five

[basildev]

naaaaw....thank Strawb

[Jemima]

As you know, the CNS recovers by lurches and jerky stops, and you seem to be lurching along pretty well! May that continue!

[basildev]

thanks Jemima - lurch is a great word!

[basildev]

Hello everyone,

 

I have a question for you veterans out there who have seen many cases of withdrawal.

 

I'm coming into my 9th week since updosing to 20mg and this is what my recovery looks like so far (I have attached the file).

 

At this point my only issue is sleep fluctuation (except In the past week I've experienced a new symptom - constipation. Is this a common withdrawal symptom?)

 

There seems to be 2 things happening in relation to windows and waves:

 

1) Each week I experience fluctuations in sleep. For example, lowest last week was 6 hour and highest was 9 hours with anything in between.

2) Over the last month I've been getting less sleep overall. It has progressively declined. The month before overall it was better.

 

Is this what you would consider to be the normal pattern of withdrawal?

 

I'm trying to work out if I'm still in the process of stabilizing OR I'm taking the wrong dose. My feeling is that I'm still stabilizing and should stay put. BUT I'm getting discouraged because all the stories I read on this site report that stabilizing (I mean not just feeling better, but feeling COMPLETELY well again) happens within 4-6 weeks. For my part, most of the symptoms went away after 3 weeks. But the sleep issue is still stubborn and hanging on.

 

Am I flogging a dead horse?

[Altostrata]

Your graph shows an overall improvement in sleep?

 

Magnesium can help that constipation

[basildev]

Yeah but it's deteriorated in the last month Alto.

 

I know windows and waves are a normal part of recovery but what I want to know is, is it normal that my sleep is STILL going up and down after nearly 2 months on the same dose?

 

In your experience, what's the longest time you've seen it take for a person to (completely) stabilize after an updose/reinstatement?

 

I have some 'Remag' magnesium sitting in my cupboard but I'm terrified to take it in case I'm hypersensitive

[Narcissus]

I don't think it's out of the ordinary for a sensitive nervous system, which you seem to have.

 

The threads here on sleep suggest it's an ongoing struggle for people who find themselves on the longer road to recovery. But of course some people suffered from insomnia prior to withdrawal.

[basildev]

I never had sleep problems before withdrawal Narc.

 

But yes I do seem to be extremely sensitive.

[Altostrata]

Try a tiny bit of the mag, it may help.

[basildev]

ok thanks

[flower]

Basil how you doing? Are you still stabilizing on the 20 mgs? I wonder if I will ever become stable. My friend Liz is tapering .25 mgs every 2 weeks and I am so jealous .She is a trooper. Keep faith.. I hope we both get better.

[basildev]

Hey Flower,

 

thanks for dropping by.

 

Not doing so great this week(:

 

I was getting better but now I feel like I'm back to square one

[basildev]

Hi everyone,

 

well last night I had possibly the worst sleep of my life since this whole thing started.

 

Since Tuesday I have developed these horrible hypnic jerks that stop me from falling sleep. I took 5mg valium last night (after tossing and turning till the early hours) and I honestly believe that if I hadn't, I would have been awake the entire night.

 

This is very discouraging.

 

3 weeks ago I recommenced Bikram yoga (I had been practising regularly twice a week before withdrawal. I stopped at the beginning of my withdrawal) - this is a type of yoga that's done in a hot room (40 degrees celsius). The class goes for about 90 minutes and I guess you could say the end effect is similar to having a sauna - you sweat and lots a lot of bodily fluids.

 

I've been recording my sleep on those nights that I do yoga and in the last 2 weeks they were fine, in fact better than fine so I figured it wasn't having a negative effect on my symptoms. This week though, has been terrible for sleeping. I feel I'm right back to where I was when this nightmare began - in fact, even worse.

 

I'm going to stop the yoga.

 

But I was wondering if anybody has heard of losing a lot of bodily fluids (IE: sweating in a sauna, etc...) might exacerbate withdrawal symptoms.

 

Any advice or experience would be greatly appreciated.

[Angel7366]

Do you think this is related to w/ds or perhaps a separate pre-existing insomnia issue which you say you had if I read it right.

 

Maybe you are over focusing on sleep and it is a bad night that could happen to anyone. I have has many poor nights sleep prior to this awful sleep med I'm on now and also nights where I had no sleep. You will probably find you sleep okay tonight and , if not, don't worry about it.

 

Just a suggestion.

[Narcissus]

I was getting better but now I feel like I'm back to square one

This will happen repeatedly throughout the withdrawal process, even several months in. My advice would be to try to find a way of coping psychologically, because it's something you'll probably have to deal with for some time.

 

This is easier said than done. When the 'square one' feeling comes around I almost always fall apart.

[basildev]

I know that logically Narc.

 

But I just feel like a freak of nature. I didn't cold turkey this stuff - I was still on 11mg. So the updose should be taking effect by now. It seems to for most other people.

 

Everybody else seems to bounce back much more quickly than I do

[basildev]

Thank you, Angel. The body jerks are new and they're causing the porblem at the moment. They only appeared in the last 3 days.

 

- 'just don't worry about it' - if only it was that simple:)

[Narcissus]

^I know the feeling. I think sensitivity has a lot to do with it, sensitivity in a general sense, and being sensitive can be a bit of a curse sometimes.

 

I know that any advice I give you already know at some level, but I find that two things help me when I'm in the midst of withdrawal: repetition and getting advice from others. The repetition helps because in the fog of withdrawal I find it very hard to track or sustain certain ideas, and the advice from others helps because I often feel like I can't trust my own thoughts during bad episodes. I need to be reminded of things I already know to be true about withdrawal.

 

I don't know if you're the same in this regard.

[Jemima]

I'm thinking the problem may be the amount of the updose you made. Going from 11 mg. to 20 mg in one leap is a 55% increase. It may take longer to stabilize because of that.

 

Focusing so intently on how much you're sleeping, the quality of sleep, et cetera, is a nearly surefire way to create insomnia. "Just don't worry about it" really is good advice.

[basildev]

I know that any advice I give you already know at some level, but I find that two things help me when I'm in the midst of withdrawal: repetition and getting advice from others. The repetition helps because in the fog of withdrawal I find it very hard to track or sustain certain ideas, and the advice from others helps because I often feel like I can't trust my own thoughts during bad episodes. I need to be reminded of things I already know to be true about withdrawal.

Yes Narc, I am the same. It does help that people out there are 'listening'.

 

I'm thinking the problem may be the amount of the updose you made. Going from 11 mg. to 20 mg in one leap is a 55% increase. It may take longer to stabilize because of that.

No doubt Jemima, My symptoms got worse before they got better but I hung on. 9 weeks later I'm back where I started! It was bad enough that I was waking early but the body jerks make it impossible to fall asleep. I'm terrified that I'm going to have to medicate because of this and then I'll be addicted to benzos as well!

[strawberry17]

Drive by (((hug))) Basildev before I go to work. I'll write something properly this evening, I know how you're feeling.

[basildev]

thank you Strawb xx

[flower]

Hey Flower,

 

thanks for dropping by.

 

Not doing so great this week(:

 

I was getting better but now I feel like I'm back to square one

 

Basil when I updosed the Celexa after dropping 10 mgs,like a dummy ,it took a while for my symptoms to calm down.I updosed 5 mgs.I still think the Celexa is causing me problems 4 months out.It's not nearly as bad as it was.

[Altostrata]

Some people do better with saunas, some do worse.

[strawberry17]

No you're not a freak of nature, if you are then so am I. I've taken a long time to bounce back from my unravelling last Autumn, I'm only now getting back to "normal". I got very obsessed with sleep, or lack of it, when I was at my rock bottom before Christmas someone said to me about it, just go with it, accept it, if you have a rough night you have a rough night you can still function the next day, except I couldn't at that time "accept" it, I was devastated by it and the impact it was having on my life, now I'm feeling a lot better, not 100% but a lot better than before Christmas, and I'm still getting odd bad nights, I've had whole nights of no sleep and managed to go into work and function, ok it's not ideal, it's crap, but I seem to have got to a point where I can accept it happening and just kind of shrug my shoulders and know that I'll make up the sleep deficit the next night.

[basildev]

Thank you Flower, Strawberry and Alto.

 

The problem is, Strawberry, is that I'm NOT making up the sleep deficit the next night. The next night is as bad as the last and I simply CANNOT fall asleep unless I take 5mg of valium.

 

I feel so incredibly alone. I don't know what to do. I can't even nap during the day because I jolt awake.

 

Right now I believe I have 2 choices:

 

1) go to the doctor, who will no doubt prescribe a benzo. I don't want to do this obviously;

2) Face night after night of no sleep

 

I honestly don't think I'm strong enough to do that. What I'm experiencing now is far beyond anything before. I don't believe making any changes in my dosage will make any difference, other than to make things even worse.

 

I'm taken valium the last 2 nights. This is the ONLY thing that settles me to sleep.

 

I have nowhere to turn to and the thought of night after night of no sleep is too much for me to bear.