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JanCarol

Thank you Alto, I didn't really know her well, and I will continue to post for me, if for noone else. 

 

It is a comfort to know you amazing mods check in from time to time to make sure there are no meltdowns in here!  Thanks again!


"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.


The tedious thread (my intro):  JanCarol ☼ Reboxetine first, then Lithium

The happy thread (my success story):  JanCarol - Undiagnosed  Off all bipolar drugs

My own blog:  https://shamanexplorations.com/shamans-blog/

 

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!

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Meimeiquest

JanCarol, I too am sorry for your loss. I didn't quite understand what you meant by the crying...do you have bad memories, or is it just emotional for you? True confession...I have lived my whole life in the church....such a place of hope and stability (now that is extremely ironic for someone with bipolar to say). I am there almost every Sunday. But the singing part is, among other things, a re-calibration of my soul. I cry virtually every week...except not on Zyprexa...that was the one good thing about it. Shed maybe 2 tears when my FIL died.

 

Ok, about the light. I have read in more than one place that the one known (but probably not the most important) action of lithium is that it inhibits the enzyme that initiates the cascade that adjusts the circadian rhythm, and one of the core deficits of bipolar may be an unstable circadian rhythm. I am 5 months off an AD for the first winter this millennium. I realized the two times I thought I was slipping seriously that I had been sleeping in some...like till 7:30 (oh boy!). I am getting up EVERY day at 5:30 (because I have to do it some days), and so far I am holding. But winter is young. Sometimes I just get up and sit on the couch. I try to get some sun at midday here in the winter...I will never be organized enough to sit under a light box for 20 minutes before work and school, so I gave it to a friend.


1st round Prozac 1989/90, clear depression symptoms. 2nd round Prozac started 1999 when admitted to dr. I was tired. Prozac pooped out, switch to Cymbalta 3/2006. Diagnosed with bipolar disorder due to mania 6/2006--then I was taken abruptly off Cymbalta and didn't know I had SSRI withdrawal. Lots of meds for my intractable "bipolar" symptoms.

Zyprexa started about 9/06, mostly 5mg. Tapered 4/12 through12/29/12

Wellbutrin. XL 300 mg started 1/07, tapered 1/18/13 through 7/8/13

Oxazepam mostly continuously since 6/06, 30mg since 12/12, tapered 1.17.14 through 8.26.15

11/06 Lithium 600mg twice daily, 2.2.14 400mg TID DIY liquid, 2.12.14 1150mg, 3.2.14 1100mg, 3.18.14 1075mg, 4/14 updose to 1100mg, 6.1.14 900 mg capsules 7.8.14 810mg, 8.17.14 725mg, 8.24.24 700mg...10.22.14 487.5mg, 3.9.15 475mg, 4.1.15 462.5mg 4.21.15 450mg 8.11.15 375mg, 11.28.15 362.5mg, back to 375mg four days later, 3.4.16 updose to 475 (too much going on to risk trouble)

9/4/13 Toprol-XL 25mg daily for sudden hypertension, tapered 11.12.13 through 5.3.14, last 10 days or so switched to atenolol

7.4.14 Started Walsh Protocol

56 years old

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JanCarol

Thanks MeiMei, yes organized religion, especially of the Christian brand, holds scars for me.  I don't know when I first started noticing the choking on hymns.  15 years ago?  20? I even went to an informal "song therapy" group where we just played with our voices to see how it went.

 

It could be deep nostalgia for a "god feeling" that I no longer get, or deep nostalgia for a community that I wished I had (I did obtain some sense of community from 1998-2002, just 4 short years, but oh so sweet!).  Or pain from the family being as farked up as it was, or pain from the betrayals and lies I found in church, bible, church leaders and belief.

 

In many ways I envy those who can go to belief for answers, I no longer can.  I do know that this happened before I was burned by the Yogi in the 90's.  After that, it became hopeless.  Someday, I'll tell that story.  I may just cut and paste it from another forum where I posted it......maybe I kept a copy.....it's.   Different.  Once I was burned by the Yogi, belief in anything became problematic.  Including belief in anything.  Let's say for example, Dr. Mercola tells me that . . . blah blah blah.  And then I see a supplement on his site for blah blah blah.  It's almost like a spreadsheet, if there is an X in any of these columns, sorry.  That is now suspect.  (I don't rule it out, it just becomes dipped in suspicion) (kinda the way I feel about most things M.D. at the moment!)


"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.


The tedious thread (my intro):  JanCarol ☼ Reboxetine first, then Lithium

The happy thread (my success story):  JanCarol - Undiagnosed  Off all bipolar drugs

My own blog:  https://shamanexplorations.com/shamans-blog/

 

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!

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JanCarol

Egads, I just found the Yogi.doc written in the oughties for another support group for mental health.  I could barely read it.  

 

For here, it was too personal, too detailed.

 

I have to rethink how to present it here. 

 

And I will / must present it here, for it is a key piece to my disintegration and acceptance of "diagnosis."

 

Perhaps diagnosis was a new belief that replaced the Yogi thing, a new thing to put my faith in when I'd been failed again.

 

It is a remarkable story - EVERYwhere I have told it, people usually turn away because it doesn't relate to anything they know.  I have a few friends who watched me go through it, and even they don't "get it."  Sigh.  Laterz.


"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.


The tedious thread (my intro):  JanCarol ☼ Reboxetine first, then Lithium

The happy thread (my success story):  JanCarol - Undiagnosed  Off all bipolar drugs

My own blog:  https://shamanexplorations.com/shamans-blog/

 

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!

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JanCarol

OKAY, it's taper day.  What do I decide?  

 

I think that my mood has been fine, most of my symptoms have been allergy based - sinus, headaches, watery eyes.  That's from the antihistamine.  So I will keep the antihistamine at 1/2 dose until that stabilizes, and reduce Reboxetine to 60%.

 

I know, I know, it's a 15% taper, more than recommended.  But I haven't been on the stuff quite a year yet, and it's and ugly little drug that I don't want in my system.

 

I'm also gonna move my Vitamin D to an earlier dose (I take thyroid, rebox & statins before I am awake, on a bathroom break, back to bed, wake up later), to see if I can get some shift to my delayed cycle sleep.  2 days this week, I was sick in bed with headache (one day) and IBS (today) so it's hard to shift my sleep when I'm sick.  But I am doing better than say, a month ago.  No sun today, I will ask psychiatrist if a cloudy rainy day is enough light to take it in.  At least those days are cooler.

 

I've been noticing HOW MANY of these antidepressants contain Fluoride.  Geez.  Really makes you wonder why they put it in the water, doesn't it?


"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.


The tedious thread (my intro):  JanCarol ☼ Reboxetine first, then Lithium

The happy thread (my success story):  JanCarol - Undiagnosed  Off all bipolar drugs

My own blog:  https://shamanexplorations.com/shamans-blog/

 

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!

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mammaP

Hi Jan, I know you want off that drug ASAP but by cutting at a higher does you could set yourself back.

If the cut is too big and you have withdrawal you might have to updose again and stabilise. Then you

haven't made any progress! It's your call, but if it were me I would not be exceeding the 10%.


**I am not a medical professional, if in doubt please consult a doctor with withdrawal knowledge.

 

 

Different drugs occasionally (mostly benzos) 1976 - 1981 (no problem)

1993 - 2002 in and out of hospital. every type of drug + ECT. Staring with seroxat

2002  effexor. 

Tapered  March 2012 to March 2013, ending with 5 beads.

Withdrawal April 2013 . Reinstated 5 beads reduced to 4 beads May 2013

Restarted taper  Nov 2013  

OFF EFFEXOR Feb 2015    :D 

Tapered atenolol and omeprazole Dec 2013 - May 2014

 

Tapering tramadol, Feb 2015 100mg , March 2015 50mg  

 July 2017 30mg.  May 15 2018 25mg

Taking fish oil, magnesium, B12, folic acid, bilberry eyebright for eye pressure. 

 

My story http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/4199-hello-mammap-checking-in/page-33

 

Lesson learned, slow down taper at lower doses. Taper no more than 10% of CURRENT dose if possible

 

 

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JanCarol

Thanks Mamma!  NO WAY going back on them, taper has been very smooth so far - my last jump was this big.  If it's a fark up, I'll just hold it.  Until it's smooth again.  I haven't been on it long, and it hasn't been a dramatic AD.  I never felt the "finger in the brain" that the SSRI's, buproprion and Effexor gave me.  It's listed in journals as "largely ineffective."  I suspect Dr. KT gave it to me as placebo!  And I never went over a 1/2 dose daily, to begin with.  That's my thinking anyway.

 

If I get my butt kicked, I will come back to you humbly, Mamma and say "ouch."  :-)

 

I'm thinking about karate tonight.  The old school has closed for Christmas.  But my sensei and a few select others are leaving the school in the hopes of starting a quiet revolution, and eventually a new school.  Meanwhile, we abandon old school (mostly because of a psychotic manipulative control freak) and go to train with a "brother school," (the Kanchu, or head sensei, was first trained by my sensei).  

 

I HATE CHANGE.  

 

At least we've had the Monday night boot camps with them to get to know them, so it won't be like walking into a room full of strangers.  I've been reading some posts and intros here and some people thrive in a quiet room.  Some people enjoy disappearing in a crowd.  I'm more the quiet room type.  Maybe a bit of music to lose myself in.  But I love karate, I love my club.  It has been my job to tap people out and bring them along to Monday night boot camp, so we can talk freely away from the school, and they can meet the next step in their training.  I've done pretty good, bringing 90% of adults, and 80% of teenagers along, and a couple of newcomers.

 

BUT I HATE CHANGE.  I think that's why sensei has been especially sensitive to me, making sure I know what he's thinking every step of the way.  And he doesn't have a CLUE about psych meds or WD, other than dealing with PTSD & mental health issues as a cop.  So some big changes coming on as I start going to new classes over Christmas.

 

I feel good about Christmas this year.  Not like, Fa-la-la-la-la good, but like Whew!  Good.  As we're not invited to anything and we will spend Christmas at home.  Except for the new karate.  But the awesome thing about karate is it works best in complete mindfulness.  Sensei's words turn into my actions, as perfectly as possible.  There's no room for drama or troubles or often emotions, and if you do have an emotion, there's a handy outlet in the next kick or punch.  :-)

 

And my next question for the taper experts is:  pretend I've finished and off the Reboxetine.  Gone.  From what I've read in here, it seems like a good idea to WAIT for after effects before starting the lithium taper.  I'm thinking at least 3 months, to see if anything ugly is still kicking around from the Reboxetine.

 

I've been able to talk fairly freely about this "getting off the psych meds" thing with many people.  Most people are widely supportive, "Hey, that's great!  You never needed them anyway" (even though they've never seen me without them).  But they have no clue - no clue at all - about what I'm talking about.  That there are internet support groups, that people really suffer from these drugs.  At one point, my therapist said, "I don't think you are really bipolar!"  At the time, I was like, "but you saw my chart......???"  But I also know that I can "present well,"   Anyhow, I feel fortunate that I can talk about it. 


"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.


The tedious thread (my intro):  JanCarol ☼ Reboxetine first, then Lithium

The happy thread (my success story):  JanCarol - Undiagnosed  Off all bipolar drugs

My own blog:  https://shamanexplorations.com/shamans-blog/

 

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!

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JanCarol

Been having an IBS week.  First diarrhea, now gas - painful gas, and it's difficult to pass because I have no muscles where I have prolapsed.  Personally I blame the lithium for the prolapse, because of constipation.  I went looking yesterday to see if there are any links between lithium and IBS, because it's really quite mysterious.  And here, I had just told the dietitian that I didn't need the FODMAPS diet, I had reduced my stool softener and was having no problems.  Hah!  Now this.  I will look over the FODMAPS list, and see if there is anything I can do with it.  I can't eliminate ALL of the foods, that's too restrictive.  But maybe I can look at one group at a time (there are about 12 groups) to see if I can narrow it down.  Probably wheat is a strong candidate, as is fructose.  But it might be one of those sub-groups of fructose, which would be nice.  I love fruit.

 

ON SUPPLEMENTS:  Folks here are very cautious about supplements.  But I've been on them most of my life.  I started them when I was bodybuilding, to get enough protein and B vitamins to support my 2000-3500 calorie workouts. Then I went through a phase of antioxidants.  Vit E, Selenium, Beta Carotene, C.  Then I became poor and those fell away and I think I just took C, Calcium with D, and a Multivitamin.  THAT was 20 years ago.  I ripped ligaments in my knee:  add glucosamine & later, chondroitin.  Bipolar Diagnosis:  Add fish oil, and later, krill oil.  Add Statins:  add CoQ10.  Many of these were suggested by doctors, like the MSM my osteopath suggested.  After he died, I reviewed it and decided it wasn't doing much for me.  That was a lot of pills, 7-15 grams per day (he had a formula for me to settle on a final dose, but I've forgotten it).  I've increased the calcium as I've aged, and my psychiatrist did a blood test for Vitamin D, and I added another capsule, now increased to 5000 iu a day, based on blood tests. When I got the "pre-diabetic" scare, I started Chromium & cinnamon.  For a prophylactic for headache, sciatic and muscle pain, I take magnesium.  As I went through menopause, I took Indoplex (highly recommend that one), when it was done, I quit.  When I started going off the statins, I added Red Yeast Rice and Bergamot and Plant Sterols, soon to add niacin to bring down the "bad" levels.  Niacin has a risk of increasing blood sugar, but the statins have a risk of increasing diabetes, which is my main excuse for going off of them.  I take a small B-complex and NAC also for depression, and after bowel surgery (with another one in my distant future, as soon as I can lose the weight), I take psyllium & enzymes & probiotic.

 

It seems like a big load, when I look at my bowl of minerals, vitamins and supplements. But then, I read an article from a link somewhere on this site about a guy who says that taking a supplement tells your body not to manufacture that substance (paraphrased!), and to produce those substances eat like this (darn near paleo) and stress your body with fasts and workouts, or fasts AND workouts at the same time.  My Doctor-friend agreed with the first part of that statement:  when you take Vitamin E, you are less likely to produce Vitamin E naturally from your food.  But the human body doesn't "produce" Vitamin C naturally, in my understanding, as a devil's advocate position.  And megadoses of C, for cleansing, for wellness, are impossible to get through food.  When I look at his regimen, I think - yes, in theory that's great.  But I'm not going to risk my cholesterol and risk of diabetes with that one.

 

So I've been supplementing for easily 30 years on and off.  I'm not seeking to use these supplements to replace my A/D or lithium, or to save me out of the deep waters.  I have a few medical issues, and as I said before, most of these were suggested or even prescribed by doctors.  I'll just keep taking my fish and krill oil, and Vit D, and magnesium and (list of other stuff here) as I know my diet is not the best.  It's good, but not adequate for these needs.


"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.


The tedious thread (my intro):  JanCarol ☼ Reboxetine first, then Lithium

The happy thread (my success story):  JanCarol - Undiagnosed  Off all bipolar drugs

My own blog:  https://shamanexplorations.com/shamans-blog/

 

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!

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JanCarol

So a crow has been tormenting our possums.  Hubby or I run outside waving our arms or throwing dirt clods to get the crows to leave.  We've already lost the baby, and today I chased the crow off the bereaved haggard mama, and saw that her tail was bleeding.  He had been trying to drag her around by the tail!

 

Well, nothing gets the emotions up like animal suffering.  I got rid of the crows (and unfortunately some sulfur crested cockatoos as well), and put a piece of peach in the tree for the lady possum to eat.  (our possums are cute, mama looks like:)

Posted Image

 

So I came inside and read some more stories on this site, and listened to people's voices about Neuro Emotion.  Dam#!!!  I was angry!  And sad to see that mama is surely going to die unless we do something.  Was this neuro emotion?  It sure was sticky!  I went on the net & decided to feed the lorikeets to get them on my side in keeping the crows out.  And building a nesting box for the little girl.  But I was still sad and angry.

 

I was reminded here of EFT.  I remember years ago trying "tap of the morning,"  But I confess that the syrupy affirmations made me nauseous.  I'm sure the tapping is good, but do I have to say those stupid sickly sweet things?  Well I got sent to a different video, a British one this time.  Maybe the Brit version won't be so cloying and disgusting.  Okay.  Let's try it.

 

So he says to find an emotion.  No problem.  Sad and angry.  Find where that is in your body.  Oh yes.  Sternum,  notch of the throat.  Tapping the shuto of your hand.  Now repeat after me:  (inside I'm starting to scream:  but I *want* to feel sad and angry about the possum!  It's appropriate for me to be outraged!) "I acknowledge this feeling and . . . "  I've forgotten the rest.  I turned it off.  It wasn't as sickly as "tap of the morning" but just a little too Louise Hay for me to be able to swallow.

 

Maybe it will have to be acupuncture for me.  At least I don't have to say, pretend to say, pretend to be passionate about, any affirmations when I get acupuncture!

 

And I'm still sad and angry about the possum, but that's helping get the nesting box built (not by me, but he's outraged, too).  Maybe not neuro emotion.  An appropriate emotion that is sticky.  Sticky emotion.


"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.


The tedious thread (my intro):  JanCarol ☼ Reboxetine first, then Lithium

The happy thread (my success story):  JanCarol - Undiagnosed  Off all bipolar drugs

My own blog:  https://shamanexplorations.com/shamans-blog/

 

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!

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JanCarol

I was a golden girl.  At least I thought I was.  I was going to be a classical pianist.  I was going to compete dressage (I didn't have the skills or a horse, but I just knew that someday I would) or run a ranch for trail rides in Colorado.  I was gonna be a high powered lawyer, or top CEO of a winning company.  I was an athlete, a yogini, if not the fastest or best - darned good and knowledgeable about the body and how to make it work better.  I was going to travel the world, see it all.  I was smart, I was pretty.

 

These are the things that get bashed down in order to deal with the cards you've ACTUALLY been given.  But these come from the innocence of childhood, your core self.

 

Or did they?  Were my lawyerly, CEO-esque dreams to please Daddy?  And the piano to please Mummy? Were my dreams distorted or grandiose, reflecting my mad birth genes, and my "latent" bipolar?  (I still haven't come to peace with "diagnosis?  or not?")

 

Or were those dreams just the pure desires of my soul, my self, my expression of this life and a roadmap to follow?

 

Do I want any of them now?  Certainly, but as I age, the distance between me and them becomes insurmountable.

 

I am so much less than I meant to be.  I was wild before the drugs, in belief, in emotional swings (but was getting better, I no longer resorted to violence, only thought of it.  I have to say martial arts probably helped a lot, even if they were corrupt).  Then, the drugs came, and I went to some other wild places.  My spirituality was in full bloom, but then when anhedonia sets in - well, the spiritual stuff is the first to go, isn't it, as you struggle to keep a marriage and a job together.

 

But it's all so mundane, the way it turned out.  Yes, I've been in the same room with the Dalai Lama.  But that is not the same as being in the same ROOM as he.  I've been at admiring distance from some great teachers and healers.  But I've never been "in."  

 

Just another worker bee, trying to survive, takes the pills and 15 years later realizes:  what?

 

And then realizes.  OMG.  I'm 50.  I will never climb Mt. Everest.  I will never ride a Yak across Siberia.  In my physical condition, these would literally *kill* me.  Where is that mountain ranch and the horseriding ability?  Where is Robert Redford?  What happened?

 

The Talking Heads have a lyric to nail this, and I've known it all along, but it only goes deeper the older I get:

 

You may find yourself living in a shotgun shack          (been there)

You may find yourself in another part of the world        (am there!)
You may find yourself behind the wheel of a large automobile  (Oh yeah that '60 Chevy was a boat!)
You may find yourself in a beautiful house with a beautiful wife   (here I am, only a husband)
You may ask yourself, well, how did I get here?      (YEAH!  HOW?)
CHORUS 1

Letting the days go by, let the water hold me down   (but this is the healing, this is the continuity.  The water flows and cleanses)
Letting the days go by, water flowing underground
Into the blue again after the money's gone              
 (Yep)
Once in a lifetime, water flowing underground

You may ask yourself, how do I work this?   (all the time.  Like my body, my brain, and sometimes my computer or a tool)
You may ask yourself, where is that large automobile?         (I do!  I do!  And I don't know!  It's NOT here!)
You may tell yourself, this is not my beautiful house             (Gods yes.  But what *is* my "beautiful house"?)
You may tell yourself, this is not my beautiful wife                 (Um, yeh.  When did you replace my husband with a 60 yo?)
CHORUS 1 REPEAT

Same as it ever was, same as it ever was, same as it ever was, same as it ever was  (That's it, isn't it.  We do the same old ruts and expect things to change!)
Same as it ever was, same as it ever was, same as it ever was, same as it ever was

Water dissolving and water removing     
 (Again, anytime there's water in this song, it's about healing, dissolving, removing, purifying)
There is water at the bottom of the ocean   (and the water goes deeper than you ever will.  Reassurance)
Remove the water, carry the water          (get used to the water, use the water, feel the water)
Remove the water from the bottom of the ocean    (Go deep, all the way to the bottom, the basis)
 CHORUS 1 REPEAT
 <snip repetitive lines>

You may ask yourself, what is that beautiful house?   (I think I did just that, above)
You may ask yourself, where does that highway lead to?  (ALWAYS and this may be the most intriguing line of the piece)
You may ask yourself, am I right, am I wrong?   (Oh yea.  Don't we all?  If we don't, then I'm worried about it)
You may say to yourself, my god, what have I done? (Regrets oh regrets.  Seeing the consequences of your actions, whether through drug or W/D or just plain stupidity)
CHORUS 1 REPEAT
Into the blue again, into silent water
Under the rocks and stones, there is water underground
Letting the days go by, into silent water
Once in a lifetime, water flowing underground
Same as it ever was, same as it ever was, same as it ever was, same as it ever was
Same as it ever was, same as it ever was, same as it ever was, same as it ever was

 

* * * * *

 

Well, I didn't mean to go into a musical stretch - but there it is.  Gonna have that beautiful house car wife and then, when you get there - it's nothing like your hopes and dreams.  And yet it's a happy song, an upbeat song, a "take it as it comes, song"

 

So back to my original question:  those dreams of children, your dreams, my dreams.  Is there any gold left in them?  Anyone go back to their childhood dreams and find something special to carry them to the next part of their life?  (at least that's the way it works in movies:  when I grow up I'm gonna be a cowboy. Adult finds magic bean, and childhood dream comes true, and it really is everything they wanted.)

Edited by JanCarol
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"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.


The tedious thread (my intro):  JanCarol ☼ Reboxetine first, then Lithium

The happy thread (my success story):  JanCarol - Undiagnosed  Off all bipolar drugs

My own blog:  https://shamanexplorations.com/shamans-blog/

 

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!

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Petunia

Thanks for that last post JC, I've been sitting here ages thinking about some of the things you wrote.  Don't have any answers, or anything to add really, just that.... well, I'm going through the same kinds of things, asking those questions, trying to find peace and acceptance.

 

I hope your possum is ok


I'm not a doctor.  My comments are not medical advise. These are my opinions based on my own experience and what I've learned. Please discuss your situation with a medical practitioner who has knowledge of tapering and withdrawal...if you are lucky enough to find one.

My Introduction Thread

Full Drug and Withdrawal History

Brief Summary

Several SSRIs for 13 years starting 1997 (for mild to moderate partly situational anxiety) Xanax PRN ~ Various other drugs over the years for side effects

2 month 'taper' off Lexapro 2010

Short acute withdrawal, followed by 2 -3 months of improvement then delayed protracted withdrawal

DX ADHD followed by several years of stimulants and other drugs trying to manage increasing symptoms

Failed reinstatement of Lexapro and trial of Prozac (became suicidal)

May 2013 Found SA, learned about withdrawal, stopped taking drugs...healing begins.

Protracted withdrawal, with a very sensitized nervous system, slowly recovering as time passes

Supplements which have helped: Vitamin C, Magnesium, Taurine

Bad reactions: Many supplements but mostly fish oil and Vitamin D

June 2016 - Started daily juicing, mostly vegetables and lots of greens.

Aug 2016 - Oct 2016 Best window ever, felt almost completely recovered

Oct 2016 -Symptoms returned - bad days and less bad days.

April 2018 - No windows, but significant improvement, it feels like permanent full recovery is close.

VIDEO: Where did the chemical imbalance theory come from?



VIDEO: How are psychiatric diagnoses made?



VIDEO: Why do psychiatric drugs have withdrawal syndromes?



VIDEO: Can psychiatric drugs cause long-lasting negative effects?

VIDEO: Dr. Claire Weekes

 

 

 

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JanCarol

Thank you Petu, I was feeling (at the time) that post was really self indulgent.  I recommend listening to the song - as an Aussie, you may not have heard it!  Here is the video of the song from "Stop Making Sense" David Byrne also moves it with interpretive dance, as only he can do.  (I especially like his interpretation of "Same as it ever was")

 

I just had a flood of feeling & tears watching the vid myself.  So futile!  Such an ancient conundrum, as Solomon says in Ecclesiasties:  "Vanity of vanities, all is vanity.  What advantage does man have in all his work which he does under the sun?"  "All things are wearisome; man is not able to tell it. The eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor is the ear filled with hearing. That which has been is that which will be, and that which has been done is that which will be done. So, there is nothing new under the sun."  (hmmm, what would Solomon think of space travel, internet, air traffic and power tools?   ;) )

 

Ms. Possum is asleep in her tree, it's Saturday and we're both around to keep the crows away.  Hubby is out in the shed building a box for her, and a box to spare, since we've had this problem in previous years and didn't understand how or what was happening like we do now.  (there's a great WD analogy - sometimes it takes YEARS to interpret the signs and finally CATCH the behaviour in the act!).  I've invited a friend who is a wildlife carer - trained by Saint Steve Irwin's Australia Zoo - to help us place the box.  She told us to hang aluminum foil from the trees around the box to keep the nasty crows away.  

 

She also said, when Mama feels safe, we will soon have a colony because babies return to their birthplace.  But that will be years (see WD analogy above, only this time it's about building a new thing) because she lost her baby this year.  She talked about hand feeding them because they are sweet, trusting souls, but Mama is bereaved and beleaguered this year, I want to build trust until she knows she is safe - until WE know she is safe, too. 

 

I'm sure I have a new post today, but it may take awhile to get it out!   (Oh, wow, the video embedded!  Cool!)

Edited by JanCarol
repost good vid link

"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.


The tedious thread (my intro):  JanCarol ☼ Reboxetine first, then Lithium

The happy thread (my success story):  JanCarol - Undiagnosed  Off all bipolar drugs

My own blog:  https://shamanexplorations.com/shamans-blog/

 

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!

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JanCarol

Hmm.  My use of the word "bean"

 

God bean, magic bean

 

("god bean" I may have been talking about the pineal gland, but okay)

 

Maybe I should eat more beans, and increase the likelihood that I will get the ***right*** bean!   :D


"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.


The tedious thread (my intro):  JanCarol ☼ Reboxetine first, then Lithium

The happy thread (my success story):  JanCarol - Undiagnosed  Off all bipolar drugs

My own blog:  https://shamanexplorations.com/shamans-blog/

 

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!

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JanCarol

With her tiger avatar, new image in my mind of Altostrata as Durga, cutting through the crap.  Durga Alto, mother of our forum.  Durga Alto restoring moral order.  Durga Alto, demon killer.  Tiger goddess of our SA site!    Yar!

 

Posted Image


"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.


The tedious thread (my intro):  JanCarol ☼ Reboxetine first, then Lithium

The happy thread (my success story):  JanCarol - Undiagnosed  Off all bipolar drugs

My own blog:  https://shamanexplorations.com/shamans-blog/

 

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!

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mammaP

Love that tiger analogy, that is our Alto growling at the shrinks! 

 

 

I waned to be a prima ballerina when I was little, I was going to dance with Rudolf Nuryev.

My mum was a ballerina and gave it up to have children and I longed to be like her. 

Sadly I had juvenile arthritis and was just too stiff, plus mum knew the dangers

(she was anorexic) and didn't want to encourage me. she told me that when I was grown up.

I would dance round the house and garden on my own, in my own little world, lol. 

 

I was 12 when I finally gave up on that dream, and then wanted a shop. I worked in shops

and loved it. No big dreams except my own shop one day. Then had kids, I was then

completely blown away by motherhood and my new goal was a huge farmhouse with a

huge table and lots of kids round it, We would foster children and give them love and a home.

Got the farmhouse and table but just months later was swallowed up into the mental health 

system.  And that was the end of that dream! 


**I am not a medical professional, if in doubt please consult a doctor with withdrawal knowledge.

 

 

Different drugs occasionally (mostly benzos) 1976 - 1981 (no problem)

1993 - 2002 in and out of hospital. every type of drug + ECT. Staring with seroxat

2002  effexor. 

Tapered  March 2012 to March 2013, ending with 5 beads.

Withdrawal April 2013 . Reinstated 5 beads reduced to 4 beads May 2013

Restarted taper  Nov 2013  

OFF EFFEXOR Feb 2015    :D 

Tapered atenolol and omeprazole Dec 2013 - May 2014

 

Tapering tramadol, Feb 2015 100mg , March 2015 50mg  

 July 2017 30mg.  May 15 2018 25mg

Taking fish oil, magnesium, B12, folic acid, bilberry eyebright for eye pressure. 

 

My story http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/4199-hello-mammap-checking-in/page-33

 

Lesson learned, slow down taper at lower doses. Taper no more than 10% of CURRENT dose if possible

 

 

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Altostrata

Grrrrrrr....as you intuited, the tiger is my power animal!


This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Petunia
I've invited a friend who is a wildlife carer - trained by Saint Steve Irwin's Australia Zoo - to help us place the box.

 

Steve Irwin Tribute - Wildest Things in the World - by Melodysheep

I'm not a doctor.  My comments are not medical advise. These are my opinions based on my own experience and what I've learned. Please discuss your situation with a medical practitioner who has knowledge of tapering and withdrawal...if you are lucky enough to find one.

My Introduction Thread

Full Drug and Withdrawal History

Brief Summary

Several SSRIs for 13 years starting 1997 (for mild to moderate partly situational anxiety) Xanax PRN ~ Various other drugs over the years for side effects

2 month 'taper' off Lexapro 2010

Short acute withdrawal, followed by 2 -3 months of improvement then delayed protracted withdrawal

DX ADHD followed by several years of stimulants and other drugs trying to manage increasing symptoms

Failed reinstatement of Lexapro and trial of Prozac (became suicidal)

May 2013 Found SA, learned about withdrawal, stopped taking drugs...healing begins.

Protracted withdrawal, with a very sensitized nervous system, slowly recovering as time passes

Supplements which have helped: Vitamin C, Magnesium, Taurine

Bad reactions: Many supplements but mostly fish oil and Vitamin D

June 2016 - Started daily juicing, mostly vegetables and lots of greens.

Aug 2016 - Oct 2016 Best window ever, felt almost completely recovered

Oct 2016 -Symptoms returned - bad days and less bad days.

April 2018 - No windows, but significant improvement, it feels like permanent full recovery is close.

VIDEO: Where did the chemical imbalance theory come from?



VIDEO: How are psychiatric diagnoses made?



VIDEO: Why do psychiatric drugs have withdrawal syndromes?



VIDEO: Can psychiatric drugs cause long-lasting negative effects?

VIDEO: Dr. Claire Weekes

 

 

 

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JanCarol

Hi all, no I haven't forgotten about you.  Silly season and all.  All is still well here in Queensland, except we lost the possums.  :-(  But the next possums have some awesome homes to live in (hubby built).

 

Thank you MammaP for sharing your dreams.  Isn't it amazing how it shifts and grows, and yet - for me at least, there is a charred spot inside where the dream has been cauterized, sealed off from the reality of me, as I realized:  nope.  Not gonna happen.

 

When I was 5 years old if you asked me, "what do you want to be when you grow up?" I would have said, "A cowboy!"  NOT, please note, a cowgirl.  So early on I was into the impossible - or at least improbable - dream.  But in the 60's, "To Dream the Impossible Dream" was a thing to be done!  When I was 7, if you asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up, I would tell you "A Mommy."  I think the burning away of that dream hurts the most.  So I have a cat.  :unsure:

 

And Petu, oh my.  I had to watch the St. Steve-o tribute several times, mark it as a favorite, and send it to all my beloveds!  That really captured the essence of the man in an amazing 3 minutes!  THANK YOU FOR THAT, maybe my best Christmas present this year!

 

You can see an important part of my home at 2:24 when Steve-o says "Conservation" - that's the Glasshouse Mountains, a local amazing set of ancient volcanoes that I can see - not quite from my house, but I don't have to drive far to see them.  FYI.

 

More to come, I'm a little scattered at the mo, computer is acting up (I love facebook I hate facebook!) and I should have more time soon as hubby is back to work after the holidays.


"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.


The tedious thread (my intro):  JanCarol ☼ Reboxetine first, then Lithium

The happy thread (my success story):  JanCarol - Undiagnosed  Off all bipolar drugs

My own blog:  https://shamanexplorations.com/shamans-blog/

 

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!

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JanCarol

Okay, a less cursory tale of where I am and how I'm going.  I start my 50% taper tomorrow.  Down to 50% of Reboxetine from 60%.  

 

Here's how I know the taper is okay.  

 

I went swimming at a friends yesterday.  While in the shower, afterwards, she yelled in, "Would you like a coffee?"  This is a complicated question in Australia because so many people actually drink instant coffee here, and think it's fine.  I find it makes me jittery.  That's part of the debate.  AND, it was 3:30 pm, a little later than I would usually have a coffee.  So I asked, "A real coffee?"  She hesitated (the "real" machine is her husbands, she had never used it before), so I said, "Tea would be fine," and thought yes, Tea would be just right, less caffeine, but still comforting.  Well when I came out of the shower, she had figured out the pod coffeemaker and made me a cup of the strongest coffee available.  Okay, then.  I'm a guest, I will happily drink this tasty brew.

 

12 hours later, at 3:30 in the morning, I was still going.  That, coupled with the heat, left me feeling hung over today.  But that was extraordinary, I don't usually do that.  And it led me to believe that I am not in need of antidepressants.  

 

I've been going to karate & boot camp, 2 sessions a week, and doing pretty well there.  I feel I am being considered as a person of rank (even though I'm new to this school) and being trained for black belt.  This is a good discipline, and I have many new things to learn.  As always.

 

I learned from psycheducation.org that really, in bipolars, antidepressants should be temporary measures.  Never more than a year, IF THAT.  According to the doctor on that website, I'm a perfect candidate for occasional antidepressant treatment.  Of course, it doesn't address the possibility that I might not be bipolar if it weren't for antidepressants.

 

Hubby and I have been getting things done around the house, in spite of the heat.  As always, there is still more to do, and he does more than his share of things around here.  I need to contribute more, but it is difficult to motivate.

 

I have had social contact with quite a few friends.  I haven't seen or talked to any relatives since the funeral, or my own relatives in Indiana, either.  In spite of Christmas.  I'm sure they are waiting to hear from me.  I wish they felt free to call me - I've given them a calling card so they don't have to pay for the call.  But all those numbers scare them, I guess.  So I feel a bit of a pariah from my family, though we are in touch via email.

 

I'm going to continue taking my antihistamines (at 1/2 dose).  I'm too afraid to reduce them any.  but the antidepressants, if caffeine can charge me up that much, I do not need antidepressants!

 

Now that the holidays are over, soon the visits to psych and pdoc begin anew.  Sorry for the bland report, my heart's not quite in it tonight, nothing is extraordinary, but I did want to make a record of where I am right now before my next taper.

 

Thanks for listening!


"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.


The tedious thread (my intro):  JanCarol ☼ Reboxetine first, then Lithium

The happy thread (my success story):  JanCarol - Undiagnosed  Off all bipolar drugs

My own blog:  https://shamanexplorations.com/shamans-blog/

 

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!

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Meimeiquest

Good to read your updates. About your AD, I am so glad I am off a similar one (Wellbutrin). Carry on! I am still really torn about the lithium. At this point, I have tried many antipsychotics....they are off the table. If I take lithium off, all that's left is anticonvulsants if I get into trouble. Am I ready to take that chance? Are you?


1st round Prozac 1989/90, clear depression symptoms. 2nd round Prozac started 1999 when admitted to dr. I was tired. Prozac pooped out, switch to Cymbalta 3/2006. Diagnosed with bipolar disorder due to mania 6/2006--then I was taken abruptly off Cymbalta and didn't know I had SSRI withdrawal. Lots of meds for my intractable "bipolar" symptoms.

Zyprexa started about 9/06, mostly 5mg. Tapered 4/12 through12/29/12

Wellbutrin. XL 300 mg started 1/07, tapered 1/18/13 through 7/8/13

Oxazepam mostly continuously since 6/06, 30mg since 12/12, tapered 1.17.14 through 8.26.15

11/06 Lithium 600mg twice daily, 2.2.14 400mg TID DIY liquid, 2.12.14 1150mg, 3.2.14 1100mg, 3.18.14 1075mg, 4/14 updose to 1100mg, 6.1.14 900 mg capsules 7.8.14 810mg, 8.17.14 725mg, 8.24.24 700mg...10.22.14 487.5mg, 3.9.15 475mg, 4.1.15 462.5mg 4.21.15 450mg 8.11.15 375mg, 11.28.15 362.5mg, back to 375mg four days later, 3.4.16 updose to 475 (too much going on to risk trouble)

9/4/13 Toprol-XL 25mg daily for sudden hypertension, tapered 11.12.13 through 5.3.14, last 10 days or so switched to atenolol

7.4.14 Started Walsh Protocol

56 years old

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JanCarol

Hi Meimei.  I've been thinking about the Lithium.  I've been thinking about it this much:

 

 

Lyrics (by Evanescence):

"Lithium"
 

Lithium, don't want to lock me up inside.
Lithium, don't want to forget how it feels without...
Lithium, I want to stay in love with my sorrow.
Oh, but God, I want to let it go.

Come to bed, don't make me sleep alone.
Couldn't hide the emptiness, you let it show.
Never wanted it to be so cold.
Just didn't drink enough to say you love me.

I can't hold on to me,
Wonder what's wrong with me.

Lithium, don't want to lock me up inside.
Lithium, don't want to forget how it feels without...
Lithium, I want to stay in love with my sorrow.

Don't want to let it lay me down this time.
Drown my will to fly.
Here in the darkness I know myself.
Can't break free until I let it go.
Let me go.

Darling, I forgive you... After all,
Anything is better than to be alone.
And in the end I guess I had to fall.
Always find my place among the ashes.

I can't hold on to me,
Wonder what's wrong with me.

Lithium, don't want to lock me up inside.
Lithium, don't want to forget how it feels without...
Lithium, ...stay in love with you.
I'm gonna let it go.
 
 
This may mean a lot of different things to a lot of people.  To me it talks about blocking the feelings, even blocking the pain, the sorrow, so you can let it go.  The problem is, that once you lock it up in ice (I love the frozen and underwater images in the video) it stays there, and you never do let it go.  You become chained to it.
 
Meimei, I am not confident that I can grow through all of those locked up things.  There are a whole lifetime of locked up things in there.  I know it, I can see the shapes and textures of them, and if they all thaw at the same time it will be overwhelming.  Or maybe my personality keeps it frozen, and I blame it on the lithium.  
 
I do not have the discipline yet of going out in the sun every day.  I have been horrible about regulating my sleep cycles.  I haven't even been good about avoiding the wheat that my nutritionist wants me to avoid....
 
These are the downsides.
 
On the upsides, I have never been hospitalized, I have never harmed myself or others as a strategy (sometimes it has happened carelessly, but is that not human?).  I have always retained enough lucidity to get help when I was "lunatic."
 
In reading Will Hall about "mental diversity," he apparently has times (fully off meds now) when he is literally barking at the moon and talking to flowers and trees.  He doesn't take appointments on those days.
 
I think that is my preference, if my hubby will accept it, to just let myself be a bit mad at times.  I'm not harming anyone in my madness.  I'm not functional anyway, so what is the intense pressure to try and "fix" me?  Fixing me is not fixing me, it's just making me differently broken.
 
So the plan is to try to come off the lithium.  What you are saying about "not going back" is NOT IN ALL CASES.  Some can and do go back.  I will not take antipsychotics ever again.  The next step for me, for coming off of lithium, is to talk my pdoc into giving me a script for valium.  We give the script to hubby, and if I fly too high for more than 3 days, he gives it to me.  But it will have to be strong, strong enough to knock me down out of manic, if that is going to happen.  I can't be having a wimpy script and hubby fills it and it doesn't work because Aussie docs thing that nobody but addicts would need a dose that strong.  And then I have the problem of getting into pdoc 50 min away or trying to convince a GP to give it to me.  Well, I happen to know Valium, and I can take all the little yellow ones I want with no effect.  It will take a number of blue ones, at least 3 a day for a week or two, to knock me down.
 
As for the addictiveness and the benzo problem of valium, Will Hall talks about this too.  It is ONLY for short term use - it was only EVER for short term use.  It is a misuse that people got scripts for benzo's lasting months and then years.  And Valium has the longest half life of any benzo, it is older, easier to extract from, ergo, the safest option to use.
 
I also am an herbalist, and have a few handy things which could help.  But they are not strong enough to take me down and out.
 
So I intend to try.  At this juncture.  I do have some support in place, I have you & Alto & Petu & others to learn from, I can skype with Will Hall if I think he can help.  I exercise regularly, and am in fair shape for someone of my age and condition.  I just need to keep hitting the discipline!  (she says at 2:45 am, not wearing her blue-block computer glasses, and NOT ready to sleep!)

"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.


The tedious thread (my intro):  JanCarol ☼ Reboxetine first, then Lithium

The happy thread (my success story):  JanCarol - Undiagnosed  Off all bipolar drugs

My own blog:  https://shamanexplorations.com/shamans-blog/

 

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!

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Altostrata

If you feel you need lithium, minimizing the dosage can be taking care of yourself, too. It's hard on the body.


This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Meimeiquest

JC, that was an evocative video! I can totally see why it makes you want to "go for it." Given what you've shared of your life experiences, I would feel the same way.

 

I had a different reaction, because as much as I am drawn to the drama, my biggest responsibility is to my daughters, these children from across the world who were carried and delivered by other mothers, whose tears and stories will never be known to us. I hold them in sacred trust. As an adoptee and wishful mother, I think you can understand. If this journey takes my kidneys, my thyroid, and who knows what else, I still have to do my best for them. I read a haunting story last night of a woman who developed postpartum mania, and was very carefully tapering lithium 2 years after. She tanked at 450mg, became desperately ill, had to have multiple rounds of ECT, and still isn't really stable two years later. Of course you don't ever know the whole story, but it was very sobering. And I read another story of a woman who got in trouble at 450mg and her dr. said you have to go up or down. She chose down and completely recovered.

 

And I read more about an MD in England who manages her bipolar without meds. She has a book and website, moodmapping.com.

 

One thought I have for for you is one I need to follow up on with my pdoc, and that is to make an insomnia plan and get the meds in the house. In advance. My new dr. said I have to call her if I sleep less than 6 hrs. or more than 10 hrs. (Like that would happen!) twice in a week. She would have gotten a lot of phone calls in the past 18 months! But I realized later that would not be the time to negotiate what I would and wouldn't be willing to take. Nor the time to convince your gp to prescribe what you needed.

 

Last thought...self-discipline is way overrated. Do you think there is something fun that you could commit to in the mornings? I have never been a morning person, and I don't get up because I'm disciplined. I am just so thrilled that something free could help me so much.

 

Best to you!


1st round Prozac 1989/90, clear depression symptoms. 2nd round Prozac started 1999 when admitted to dr. I was tired. Prozac pooped out, switch to Cymbalta 3/2006. Diagnosed with bipolar disorder due to mania 6/2006--then I was taken abruptly off Cymbalta and didn't know I had SSRI withdrawal. Lots of meds for my intractable "bipolar" symptoms.

Zyprexa started about 9/06, mostly 5mg. Tapered 4/12 through12/29/12

Wellbutrin. XL 300 mg started 1/07, tapered 1/18/13 through 7/8/13

Oxazepam mostly continuously since 6/06, 30mg since 12/12, tapered 1.17.14 through 8.26.15

11/06 Lithium 600mg twice daily, 2.2.14 400mg TID DIY liquid, 2.12.14 1150mg, 3.2.14 1100mg, 3.18.14 1075mg, 4/14 updose to 1100mg, 6.1.14 900 mg capsules 7.8.14 810mg, 8.17.14 725mg, 8.24.24 700mg...10.22.14 487.5mg, 3.9.15 475mg, 4.1.15 462.5mg 4.21.15 450mg 8.11.15 375mg, 11.28.15 362.5mg, back to 375mg four days later, 3.4.16 updose to 475 (too much going on to risk trouble)

9/4/13 Toprol-XL 25mg daily for sudden hypertension, tapered 11.12.13 through 5.3.14, last 10 days or so switched to atenolol

7.4.14 Started Walsh Protocol

56 years old

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Altostrata

Almost always, MDs will misdiagnose withdrawal symptoms as relapse, so no one really knows what the real rate of relapse is.


This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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JanCarol

Oh wow, Meimei:  I promise that your story is the one I read next.  I'm pretty slow on this forum thing.  (kicks back in rocking chair with corn cob pipe) "I remember back in the day, when forums were new, I was on top of every message in the forum and commented on most of 'em!"  Well those days are over, I actually keep minimum contact with a forum so that I am still engaged, so that I don't get burnt out.  But your story, Meimei, is next, when I'm reading in the forum again!

 

If I had children.  If I had a job.  If I were back in Indiana trying to scrape by on the skin of my teeth, to pay the mortgage, to feed myself, to survive......there is no question I would not be undertaking this journey.  The flip side of this is:  when I was in Indiana, nobody tried to put me on lithium, either.  Only the tiniest doses of antidepressants, counseling and close monitoring.  We actually posited to the Australian government on my application that, with the brighter sunlight here, and less stress, I might come off my meds.   :D  Bit of  joke!  I didn't count on how difficult it is to gather support in a new country, not just quality medical support - but friends and family.  If I were a church-y type it might be easier, but the nearest church of my ilk is 50 mins away in City.  Every other week.  And nobody there lives near me for closer support.  I do participate in informal groups - going to a coffee massage tomorrow (not for me, but for a dear friend who is facing a double mastectomy.  :( ) and if I really really needed help, even my Sensei would be there for me, even if he was out of his depth.

 

Discipline is overrated, but it's all I've got.  The old bootstraps thing.  If I don't do it, who will?  The only way I've ever accomplished anything is by kicking my own ass, or by peer pressure encouraging me.  And mornings?  What's good about that?  This is beyond "not a morning person."  It's more like sticky switches.  It is difficult to switch off at night.  It is extremely difficult (after finally switching off and sleeping) to switch back on in mornings.  Your pdoc wouldn't like me:  I sleep 10 hours a night.  There is nobody here to tell me to get up (well, there will be tomorrow, when I'm going out with friends, but that's only one day this week), there is nothing but my brain and trying to see, move (often painful) and switch it on.  The morning is not, in and of itself, a motivation.

 

I've generally got a cup of coffee to look forward to.  There may come a time when that is not an option, whether the caffeine, or whether the acid for my digestion.  Then I will have nothing to look forward to.  Even when the cat comes and sleeps on top of me (trying to wake me up by infiltrating my dreams) it usually puts me deeper to sleep!

 

Without discipline, my pdoc is going to trust this process less.  And I need her.  The possibility of finding another pdoc who would be open to this in this cow-town is slim.  Not impossible, just very narrow.  If I go back to her and say:  I've been taking sun every day there has been sun (not in the rain), I've been getting up at 10 am daily, and going to bed before 2 am, average of 1 am - she would be ecstatic with me, and trust this process more.  

 

As it is, she's angry at the 2 x 15% drops that I made, saying that wasn't in the program - EVEN THOUGH it's still a far gentler taper than she would've given!

 

SOON, maybe tonight, I need to write about the evil process that keeps me up so late.  It's about selfishness.  It's about gluttony.  It's about indiscipline.  

 

Also, I've been having dreams about what it feels like to go lunatic:  it would be good to write about them, as well, if I can keep them fresh enough, long enough.

 

But for now, I have errands to run and must go.


"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.


The tedious thread (my intro):  JanCarol ☼ Reboxetine first, then Lithium

The happy thread (my success story):  JanCarol - Undiagnosed  Off all bipolar drugs

My own blog:  https://shamanexplorations.com/shamans-blog/

 

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!

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Meimeiquest

I am so undisciplined that I am reading this instead of getting ready to leave for work, My family is in a state of agitation because one kid didn't fix the litter box so cat peed in other kid's bedroom, there are Christmas ornaments disassembled but not packed all over the living room....and I'm reading a forum?? I just can't focus on anything else....except frequent arguments with my husband. One hour to takeoff for the day....we're looking good, not.


1st round Prozac 1989/90, clear depression symptoms. 2nd round Prozac started 1999 when admitted to dr. I was tired. Prozac pooped out, switch to Cymbalta 3/2006. Diagnosed with bipolar disorder due to mania 6/2006--then I was taken abruptly off Cymbalta and didn't know I had SSRI withdrawal. Lots of meds for my intractable "bipolar" symptoms.

Zyprexa started about 9/06, mostly 5mg. Tapered 4/12 through12/29/12

Wellbutrin. XL 300 mg started 1/07, tapered 1/18/13 through 7/8/13

Oxazepam mostly continuously since 6/06, 30mg since 12/12, tapered 1.17.14 through 8.26.15

11/06 Lithium 600mg twice daily, 2.2.14 400mg TID DIY liquid, 2.12.14 1150mg, 3.2.14 1100mg, 3.18.14 1075mg, 4/14 updose to 1100mg, 6.1.14 900 mg capsules 7.8.14 810mg, 8.17.14 725mg, 8.24.24 700mg...10.22.14 487.5mg, 3.9.15 475mg, 4.1.15 462.5mg 4.21.15 450mg 8.11.15 375mg, 11.28.15 362.5mg, back to 375mg four days later, 3.4.16 updose to 475 (too much going on to risk trouble)

9/4/13 Toprol-XL 25mg daily for sudden hypertension, tapered 11.12.13 through 5.3.14, last 10 days or so switched to atenolol

7.4.14 Started Walsh Protocol

56 years old

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JanCarol

Hmmm, what is it about cats right now?  My cat pulled her litter bag over her box so that then she had to pee all over wall and floor and even poo in one of her favorite sleeping spots (that's how I know she was desperate, they won't poo the nest unless desperate)  Poor thing.  No scolding, just fixed it all up so it can't happen again.

 

Okay, dream #1, I am with my friends K & G (interesting, I spent yesterday with them, too) doing a healing seminar thingy.  And I had a magick mirror, it was a silver handled thing like from a Disney movie or a fancy historical costume movie.  And in the session, the group (maybe a 1/2 dozen ladies at this session?) the mirror got "filled up" and needed to be cleaned.  Well, the facilitator told me that the only way to clean it was to sing to it!

 

Ah.  Since my thyroid was removed (and that's a whole 'nother complicated issue), I cannot sing.  Not even in dreams!  The ligaments which control my voice were stretched on one side, and - well - no control of where my voice goes.  I've meant to get speech / art therapy for it, but . . . you know, you always mean to do things.......

 

But in the next room, Will Hall (of the Harm Reduction Guide) was giving a little, private concert. I selfishly thought that he could sing to my mirror and clear it up.  This was a private concert, just Will and his guitar, and about 10 people.  Now I don't know Will Hall other than the internet and a brief email exchange.  In my dream he was a cross between the photos I see here and a young Aussie comedian, Josh Thomas (who I think of as a very vulnerable, emotional young man).  He was just sitting on a wooden chair on the stage, with his guitar, singing sweet songs that he had written.  

 

(and here's the lunacy part) and I, selfishly, like I would have in the "old days," took my mirror right up to the stage, and sat on the stairs directly below him, and held my mirror out to catch his songs as they fell out.

 

Well, that's where the dream went wobbly.  In my selfishness, I hadn't considered Will, or his audience, I was only worried about MY MIRROR.  

 

Will stopped playing, looked at me, looked at my mirror, scrunched up his face in disgust at how he had been used.  Took his guitar and left the room.

 

And I assure you, I was not popular among the remaining audience, either.

 

Dream #1:  Selfishness as lunacy.


"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.


The tedious thread (my intro):  JanCarol ☼ Reboxetine first, then Lithium

The happy thread (my success story):  JanCarol - Undiagnosed  Off all bipolar drugs

My own blog:  https://shamanexplorations.com/shamans-blog/

 

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!

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JanCarol

I need to write in here I need to write in here I need to write in here......

 

I've started to go wobbly and shaky and emotional and need to talk about it, clarify it, write it out

 

So that I know what to do.

 

So this is my promise to come in here and WRITE!  Geez.


"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.


The tedious thread (my intro):  JanCarol ☼ Reboxetine first, then Lithium

The happy thread (my success story):  JanCarol - Undiagnosed  Off all bipolar drugs

My own blog:  https://shamanexplorations.com/shamans-blog/

 

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!

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JanCarol

I've stopped logging my mood at moodscope.com.  Maybe because I'm lazy, maybe because I didn't feel the information was that valuable.  My mood spiked up and down in accordance with what was happening, how much sleep I got, and I could log this, but it didn't seem at all revelatory.

 

I'm reading an article at:  http://www.thebalancedmind.org/learn/library/interview-with-husseini-manji-md

 

and finding it depressing because basically it tells me if you have a mood disorder, especially bipolar, and you have it in your family, lithium is indicated, helpful, and neuroprotective.  It tells me that if I go into episodes (and I knew this, I remember this from long ago) I actually sear away dendrites from my neurons, and the damage cannot be repaired.  The more episodes, the worse my neurons get.  This may be the action that lithium is neuroprotective against.  I don't know.  

 

However, it does not tell me whether the studies were done before or after medication.  It could be that the medication causing the damage (it's about bipolar and unipolar, and to some extent, schizophrenia) as much as the episodes. 

 

The implication of the article is that the episodes cause the damage.  That the lithium prevents episodes and prevents damage.  

 

Though this statement is telling:  "There are very few studies in medication-free euthymic [mood-stable] bipolar patients."  (likely because euthymic bipolars are rare).

 

and this:  " Antidepressants don't make anyone bipolar. "    Um, really?

 

I need to write I need to write I need to write in here.....


"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.


The tedious thread (my intro):  JanCarol ☼ Reboxetine first, then Lithium

The happy thread (my success story):  JanCarol - Undiagnosed  Off all bipolar drugs

My own blog:  https://shamanexplorations.com/shamans-blog/

 

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!

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JanCarol

More from ibid:  "It may be that the Europeans are doing a better job than we do with lithium." and " I think the Europeans have had a tendency, once the mania is under control, to maintain patients on lower levels of lithium than we do. "

 

OK, the lowest therapeutic dose in the EU seems to be 600 mg.  And the lowest therapeutic dose (which I am on) in Australia and USA seems to be 900 mg (on a quick check)

 

Ironically, I found a "lithium orotate" which is non toxic?  WTF?  Is that for real?

 

I need to write I need to write I need to write in here.....


"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.


The tedious thread (my intro):  JanCarol ☼ Reboxetine first, then Lithium

The happy thread (my success story):  JanCarol - Undiagnosed  Off all bipolar drugs

My own blog:  https://shamanexplorations.com/shamans-blog/

 

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!

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JanCarol

ibid, (and this is a mind blower):  "Many of the genes that are considered neuroprotective are being remarkably turned on by lithium. Is lithium actually neuroprotective? We hadn't thought this way before. A number of studies have taken animal cells and tried to kill them by causing stroke, etc. These studies have consistently shown that lithium, if administered before you try to do the bad things (such as induce a stroke), protects the animal's neurons. In lithium-treated brains, the size of the resulting stroke is smaller, the number of neurons that die is lower, etc. That was amazing. "

 

See, MeiMei, I'm not all "pro quitting" the lithium.  I really need to think this one through.  

 

I do so miss my creative side, but - do I want dementia any sooner?  Wherein lies the "quality of life?"

 

I need to write I need to write I need to write in here.....


"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.


The tedious thread (my intro):  JanCarol ☼ Reboxetine first, then Lithium

The happy thread (my success story):  JanCarol - Undiagnosed  Off all bipolar drugs

My own blog:  https://shamanexplorations.com/shamans-blog/

 

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!

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JanCarol

Here's a partial answer to my questions, ibid:  "Wayne Drevets' group published a finding in Natureabout five years ago that in a part of the pre-frontal cortex of bipolar patients or patients with familial recurring unipolar depression, there was almost a 40% reduction in the amount of gray matter. That was a remarkable finding that you have such a reduction in a discrete part of brain. We spoke to him about our lithium findings and asked him to reanalyze the data. He had a small group of patients who had been treated with lithium for a long time and they did not show the brain atrophy compared with the bipolar patients. Interestingly all of the patients with unipolar depression, whether or not they had been treated with antidepressants, still showed the atrophy. "

 

So Lithium kept them from the decay of gray matter.  This is very important to consider.

 

And the other patients suffered atrophy whether on antidepressants or not.  So that minimizes "drug effect" on the attrophy..  

 

Of course, of course, the other study was in rats, and this one is just ONE study.  But still.  What if this is the right study?

 

I need to write I need to write I need to write in here . . . 


"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.


The tedious thread (my intro):  JanCarol ☼ Reboxetine first, then Lithium

The happy thread (my success story):  JanCarol - Undiagnosed  Off all bipolar drugs

My own blog:  https://shamanexplorations.com/shamans-blog/

 

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!

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JanCarol

Another study, ibid:  "We did some studies taking bipolar patients off their meds -- they were referred to us because their treatments weren't working. In every case, they either hadn't been on lithium or had been on lithium sparingly -- had started on it, had side effects, switched, and the new med was not working. These are bipolar depressed patients. We did MRI scans and MRS spectroscopy and then put them on lithium in a blinded fashion for 4-6 weeks. Then we did the scans again. We found that almost every single person taking lithium had an increase in N-acetylaspartic acid (NAA) [an amino acid that is viewed as a marker of neuronal health]. And the actual amount of gray matter was going up when they were treated chronically with lithium. This study was done together with Dr. Greg Moore¹. This was happening in areas of the patients' brains that had been atrophied. The increase was not due to swelling from water retention. The increase was seen only in areas where the brain matter had previously atrophied."

 

So the atrophy of episodes can be repaired by lithium.  (also note, article states that depakote has similar protective effects as lithium in the small study cited.)

 

I need to write I need to write I need to write in here.....


"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.


The tedious thread (my intro):  JanCarol ☼ Reboxetine first, then Lithium

The happy thread (my success story):  JanCarol - Undiagnosed  Off all bipolar drugs

My own blog:  https://shamanexplorations.com/shamans-blog/

 

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!

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JanCarol

This lines up with what Alto was saying about "if you need lithium, taking the smallest possible dose is a solution."  

 

ibid, "One question is tolerability. We've done a number of animal studies with low-dose lithium. We found that in animals, with a dose of lithium that is one-half or one-third of a usual dose, you still get a large increase in bcl-2, a neuroprotective protein. "

 

So 1/2 or 1/3 is still neuroprotective.  And he even said Lithium is Neurotropic (nourishing to neurons).

 

but if my brain is preserved by the lithium, why don't the creative, intuitive, fiery neuronal things work anymore?

 

I need to write I need to write I need to write in here.....


"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.


The tedious thread (my intro):  JanCarol ☼ Reboxetine first, then Lithium

The happy thread (my success story):  JanCarol - Undiagnosed  Off all bipolar drugs

My own blog:  https://shamanexplorations.com/shamans-blog/

 

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!

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Meimeiquest

Well, JC, I had a "moment" this week. I wrote about it under the methylation thread. I didn't start lithium for mania, I started it for severe anxiety as different antipsychotics failed. It was anxiety that started some weeks after I went off the Cymbalta that caused the mania. And it helped, which is why I have been afraid to stop it. Plus the whole mania damages your brain thing, which is probably true. Anyway, I got very, very anxious, which was possibly caused by methyl folate stopped 3 weeks ago. And the anxiety was stopped dead by one dose of niacin--but the regular withdrawal anxiety came back the next day. Someone else who did the same thing wrote somewhere on the WIDE wide web that they did the same thing and it was found to be a genetic metabolic problem that caused catecholamine level to be too high. Given that the two drugs I got crazy on increase norepinephrine, a catecholamine, I have decided (after zero testing--humm) that this is my problem and I am going to try to go off VERY slowly after I get off the beta-blocker that is presently kicking my butt. My systolic blood pressure was 200 (!) at the doctor's yesterday...now on an ACE inhibitor, heavy sigh (I don't even have hypertension). And if it all falls apart....I hope my husband takes good care of me...


1st round Prozac 1989/90, clear depression symptoms. 2nd round Prozac started 1999 when admitted to dr. I was tired. Prozac pooped out, switch to Cymbalta 3/2006. Diagnosed with bipolar disorder due to mania 6/2006--then I was taken abruptly off Cymbalta and didn't know I had SSRI withdrawal. Lots of meds for my intractable "bipolar" symptoms.

Zyprexa started about 9/06, mostly 5mg. Tapered 4/12 through12/29/12

Wellbutrin. XL 300 mg started 1/07, tapered 1/18/13 through 7/8/13

Oxazepam mostly continuously since 6/06, 30mg since 12/12, tapered 1.17.14 through 8.26.15

11/06 Lithium 600mg twice daily, 2.2.14 400mg TID DIY liquid, 2.12.14 1150mg, 3.2.14 1100mg, 3.18.14 1075mg, 4/14 updose to 1100mg, 6.1.14 900 mg capsules 7.8.14 810mg, 8.17.14 725mg, 8.24.24 700mg...10.22.14 487.5mg, 3.9.15 475mg, 4.1.15 462.5mg 4.21.15 450mg 8.11.15 375mg, 11.28.15 362.5mg, back to 375mg four days later, 3.4.16 updose to 475 (too much going on to risk trouble)

9/4/13 Toprol-XL 25mg daily for sudden hypertension, tapered 11.12.13 through 5.3.14, last 10 days or so switched to atenolol

7.4.14 Started Walsh Protocol

56 years old

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Meimeiquest

Is there a better way to get these effects that you wrote of? The whole ketagenic thing...would it support the neurons in the same way? Also, these patients were not feeling well...if you feel well, does that mean your brain is OK? Would really great nutrition cover some of those issues? There are so many more questions than answers!


1st round Prozac 1989/90, clear depression symptoms. 2nd round Prozac started 1999 when admitted to dr. I was tired. Prozac pooped out, switch to Cymbalta 3/2006. Diagnosed with bipolar disorder due to mania 6/2006--then I was taken abruptly off Cymbalta and didn't know I had SSRI withdrawal. Lots of meds for my intractable "bipolar" symptoms.

Zyprexa started about 9/06, mostly 5mg. Tapered 4/12 through12/29/12

Wellbutrin. XL 300 mg started 1/07, tapered 1/18/13 through 7/8/13

Oxazepam mostly continuously since 6/06, 30mg since 12/12, tapered 1.17.14 through 8.26.15

11/06 Lithium 600mg twice daily, 2.2.14 400mg TID DIY liquid, 2.12.14 1150mg, 3.2.14 1100mg, 3.18.14 1075mg, 4/14 updose to 1100mg, 6.1.14 900 mg capsules 7.8.14 810mg, 8.17.14 725mg, 8.24.24 700mg...10.22.14 487.5mg, 3.9.15 475mg, 4.1.15 462.5mg 4.21.15 450mg 8.11.15 375mg, 11.28.15 362.5mg, back to 375mg four days later, 3.4.16 updose to 475 (too much going on to risk trouble)

9/4/13 Toprol-XL 25mg daily for sudden hypertension, tapered 11.12.13 through 5.3.14, last 10 days or so switched to atenolol

7.4.14 Started Walsh Protocol

56 years old

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