☼ Miami1 Stabilizing on mirtazapine

[dalsaan]

I'm on 1.6 ml of mirtz - no way I would be jumping off from here

[bubble]

There is no quick fix for situations when we have battered our CNS with forcefully removing drugs that got incorporating into it, gong up and down.

 

But treating it to stability and allowing time for it to regrow does wonders. I'd just like to underline how the advice Rhi and Alto gave you is in my experience the best you can get. So the nightmare will most likely continue but it won't be nightmare all the time. It will become bearable. Just don't let doctors experiment on you any more. I think it's been more than enough...

 

here is my favourite piece by Rhi describing what is happening to us (and why doctors are dangerous as you are unfortunately seeing for yourself right now

 

 A lot of people, including healthcare practitioners; in fact, I guess, most people-- are operating from entirely the wrong paradigm, or way of thinking, about these meds. They're thinking of them like aspirin--as something that has an effect when it's in your system, and then when it gets out of your system the effect goes away.

That's not what happens with medications that alter neurotransmitter function, we are learning.

What happens when you change the chemistry of the brain is, the brain adjusts its chemistry and structure to try to return to homeostasis, or biochemical and functional balance. It tries to restabilize the chemistry. 

For example: SSRI antidepressants work as "serotonin reuptake inhibitors." That is, they cause serotonin to remain in the space between neurons, rather than being taken back up into the cells to be re-used, like it would be in a normal healthy nondrugged brain.

So the brain, which wants to re-establish normal signaling and function, adapts to the higher level of serotonin between neurons (in the "synapse", the space between neurons where signals get passed along). It does this by removing serotonin receptors, so that the signal is reduced and changed to something closer to normal. It also decreases the amount of serotonin it produces overall. 

To do that, genes have to be turned on and off; new proteins have to be made; whole cascades of chemical reactions have to be changed, which means turning on and off OTHER genes; cells are destroyed, new cells are made; in other words, a complex physiologic remodeling takes place. This takes place over time. The brain does not grow and change rapidly. 

This is a vast oversimplification of the amount of adaptation that takes place in the brain when we change its normal chemistry, but that's the principle.

When we stop taking the drug, we have a brain that has designed itself so that it works in the presence of the drug; now it can't work properly without the drug because it's designed itself so that the drug is part of its chemistry and structure. It's like a plant that has grown on a trellis; you can't just yank out the trellis and expect the plant to be okay.

When the drug is removed, the remodeling process has to take place in reverse.

SO--it's not a matter of just getting the drug out of your system and moving on. If it were that simple, none of us would be here. 

It's a matter of, as I describe it, having to grow a new brain. 

I believe this growing-a-new-brain happens throughout the taper process if the taper is slow enough. (If it's too fast, then there's not a lot of time for actually rebalancing things, and basically the brain is just pedaling fast trying to keep us alive.) It also continues to happen, probably for longer than the symptoms actually last, throughout the time of recovery after we are completely off the drug, which is why recovery takes so long. 

With multiple drugs and a history of drug changes and cold turkeys, all of this becomes even more complicated. And if a person is started on these kinds of drugs at an early age before the brain has ever completely established normal mature functioning--well, it can't be good. (All of which is why I recommend an extremely slow taper particularly to anyone with a multiple drug history, a history of many years on meds, a history of past cold turkeys or frequent med changes, and a history of being put on drugs at a young age.)

This isn't intended to scare people, but hopefully to give you some idea of what's happening, and to help you respect and understand the process so you can work with it; ALSO, because you are likely to encounter many, many people who still believe these drugs work kind of like aspirin, or a glass of wine, and all you need to do is stop and get it out of your system. 

Now you can explain to them that no, getting it out of your system is not the issue; the issue is, you need to regrow or at least remodel your brain. This is a long, slow, very poorly understood process, and it needs to be respected. 

[Altostrata]

Miami, I don't understand your doctor's reasoning at all. Why would he think quitting now would be better for you?

 

It sounds to me like you need to let your nervous system settle down from benzo withdrawal. You reinstated mirt in February, it's only been a couple of months. Your system needs longer to calm down.

 

Are you keeping track with notes on paper of your symptom pattern every day? This can be very helpful.

[Miami1]

I was pertaining to benzo sxs but since I cut that one dose of remeron I've been to sick . I will begin to writ as of today. I also decide to stay on the rem for at least a month or two then figure out how to get off. The consensus is to stay on my dose of 1.87 mg until stability returns. What if stability doesn't happen? Do I consider up-dosing? What worries me is not stabilizing and that this med doesn't agree with me like it did in the beginning. But I will keep u posted.

 

Thank you for the wonderful encouragement and help you all provide.

Miami

[Muddles]

I was taking a tiny amount of mirtaApine after a severe relation to an ssri Took that tiny amount for a few weeks. Stopped - two weeks later severe anxiety, took a small pier again...hell broke loose. Doc up-dosed to 15mg - biggest mistake of my life!

 

Moral of the story - Docs have no clue and seriously mess with people's mental health with these drugs.

 

I would stay where you are Very difficult I know....having to take something that's giving you so much greif.

[Muddles]

I wouldn't up-dose if I were you. More activating the higher you go.

[Miami1]

Wow hope you can get off. I know I'm going to have to taper smartly this little bit once I've stabilized. How small a dose did you start on?

[Miami1]

I'm becoming OCD as well! Obsessed with the predicament I find myself in!

[Muddles]

OCD is very common. At the end of the day, you feel bad and distraction is hard.

 

I don't know what dose it was. I was just biting a bit off the end - how dangerous that was!!!

 

Scary stuff that's handed out too freely.

 

My husband said I may as-well have took heroin for 5 years. It must be easier to get off that stuff than this....get so much more support being a street drug user too!

[Muddles]

Not advocating heroin or any other street drug for that matter. Just think these pharmaceutical drugs are just as destructive.

[Miami1]

R u tapering off the mirtz?

[Muddles]

Yes - bad, bad stuff. I'm holding on for dear life.

[Muddles]

You were on the other mirtazapine forum.

 

I am Sare on there....the one shouting out about how bad these drugs are. I bet a lot of people didn't sleep last night..whoops.

[Miami1]

Sare; have you been on mirtz since 2005? Hope sxs settle down for you so you can ease out.

[Miami1]

Thk u Alto;

 

I am keeping a log on my benzo sxs but since I cut that one dose of remeron I've been to sick . I will begin to write as of today. I also decide to stay on the rem for at least a month or two then figure out how to get off. The consensus is to stay on my dose of 1.87 mg until stability returns. What if stability doesn't happen? Do I consider up-dosing? What worries me is not stabilizing and that this med doesn't agree with me like it did in the beginning. But I will keep u posted.

Miami

[Muddles]

5 years this winter. How are today?

[Miami1]

I slept well but woke up with morning anxiety which then changes into to worrying light panic,shaky body specially hands and jaw. I also feel my mind is scattered can't concentrate on one thing it's thinking about everything all at once.

 

I also go up and down with emotions. I can continue like this for how long before I either have to up dose a little or start tapering of or just stop. How long is the usual wait period after trying to stabilize but it doesn't,before a plan be is considered? It feels like your losing your mind.

 

I have never been on any AD before this benzo withdrawal and even benzos are horrible you have the same sxs , anxiety or depression sleep issues but now the emotional swings along with the insecurity of will I ever be able to get off this and will my mind come back is haunting me constantly. I constantly think its the remerom not the benzo WD that is plaguing me. I say this cause after several months of 1st hand experience I never had these psychological sxs with benzos ,during taper or in acute which lasted at least two months.

 

Again with all the tough times and experiences many of you have been through and still are ,what's my next step if I still find myself feeling like this in a week from now? I recall not sure if Rhi or Petu ,some mention of possibly months to completely stabilize? If I knew the rough ballpark I would understand but I also know its different for all of us.

 

Thk you all for your help!

Miami

[bubble]

Yes, it's different for all of us. depending on many things: how many drugs we've been on, changed, CT, went up and down, etc.

 

Allowing your brain the time to regrow through stability over a period of time is the best if not the only chance of fixing this.

 

With my particular history it took me 4 months to feel sort of ok. This may sound bad but things are not clear cut: there are windows and waves-periods in the midst of WD when the pain eases and we feel almost good, and then the horror returns but the windows come again getting longer and clearer.

 

This is a very useful concept which helped me tremendously. Especially the experience that things get better WITHOUT changing anything with the drug. 

 

You "just" have to clench your teeth, read about windows and waves pattern of recovery here, look into symptoms and self care for ideas on how to ease the suffering and forget about the meds. I would just read stories of other people here to get distracted from my pain, get strength and hope.

 

You can do it!

[Miami1]

Thk you Bubble: I will stay on my current dose and hope to stabilize soon. I'm going to eventually have to switch to the liquid mirtz cause even weighing this small dose on a scale is probably not as accurate. I have problems with the liquid suspension that after dosing it revved me up. I'm wondering if there is someone that can guide me on this. Wulfgar had suggested to take 1/2 a dose then the other an hour later. Also maybe diluting the dose in a glass of juice or milk. Is there anyone that may be the go to person on this?

Thks

[Miami1]

Hi everyone :

met with new doctor today he suggested to help speed stabilization and reduce WD sxs ,I might try to split dosage

(1/2@8pm the other1/2 @ 8am). If that did not work the next step would be slightly going up on dose.

Is splitting the dose a an occasional option in my case?

Would appreciate any input, thks

[Miami1]

Anyone?

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

Many members split their doses. If you have been keeping a log of your daily symptom pattern and you know the approximate half life of the drug, you can time your doses to minimize the effect of it. In the case of an activating drug, you can time it so it does not interfere with sleep.

 

You have to give it enough time to see if it is working before you mess with the amount. Patience is not our strong suit but withdrawal makes a good teacher.

[Altostrata]

If you do split your dose, do it in a very regular way, not occasionally! And please keep notes on paper of your daily symptom pattern.

[Miami1]

Thks CYM;

Experiencing the reality of WD from mirtz is like nothing I ever experienced with Z drug or benzos. I have learned the hard way,that discipline and patience is the only way out to minimize anguish. I don't think I'm ready to play with dosing changes at the moment.

[Miami1]

Alto Thk you I'm going to hold on the one time dosing. Think I'm starting to stabilize.

Can someone help with a tapering schedule? I'm on 1.87mg of mirtz. I plan to hold on that for a couple of weeks and then start tapering. So how long between tapers and what % initially and when to chage %?

[bubble]

In short, you will have to agree on the tapering schedule with your body, or more precisely, your brain and listen very carefully to what it is telling you. If you make a bad move, it will scream at you so loud you won't miss it.

 

I was pretty badly messed up due to my ignorance so had to hold for 4 months before starting tapering. My first cut was by 5 % . I felt it for 2 weeks and allowed my brain another 2 weeks to rest before making the next cut. Since I didn't have any issues with 5 %, I decided to try 8 % and immediately felt it was not a good idea: the symptoms were by far more intense so that's how I knew that I can make only 5 % cuts (or possibly less) and hold at least 30 days. The slower, the better.

 

I shared this with you just to give you an idea. As you know by know, we are all very different with different histories and so on.

 

great to hear you are stabilising! and remmeber that along with windows, there are waves...

 

best,

 

bubble

[Miami1]

; I spoke too soon. I didn't sleep too well last night and ended up taking a 12mg of vistaril . This morning had a little depression which ended up getting worst. I thought I was getting stable but no. My friends that have been through benzo WD say that this med will only make me more psychologically unstable and that I should just stop it. But I know I can't . I'm having a horrible time and think maybe I should up my dose to 2 mg. I am walking back and forth here in my house and am so upset that I feel I'll never get out of this. What does someone in my position do knowing that this drug is making me more sick? I'm only on 1.87mg but it might as well be 15. I am so emotionaly going up and down feeling peace on moment and anxiety the next. I am so emotionaly unstable and am constantly thinking of going cold turkey again. I'm even thinking when it gets to rough to use benzos again to help. That's the reason I'm here cause I could not sleep after stoping the benzos and was given the mirtz. I'm desperate here thinking that even 1-3 months of WD is a better option. But who knows how long it might take?

[Muddles]

Feel for you. Same boat here - taking something that's making me sick yet have to because if I don't I wil get sicker. The whole thing is just sick!

 

Not sure what to advise really apart from not going up in dose. I hope you find some peace soon.

[dalsaan]

Going ct is not the way. The withdrawals will be more extreme and could be ongoing. I doubt very much they would only last 3 months. I ct off a much higher dose once, had extreme insomnia that hadn't reduce a bit by the 3 month mark when I went back on. Trust me you want to resist the temptation.

[Miami1]

Hi Sare: there's gota be a way!

[Skyler]

I'm desperate here thinking that even 1-3 months of WD is a better option. But who knows how long it might take?

I've seen wayyy more accounts from people who CT and whose WD Sx went on for a couple of years than I'd like to count. Take a look at this tread.. against Alto's advice she jumped off several meds at once. http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/2605-rebelmaven-now-tapering-prozac/

[Miami1]

Thks Skyler,scary!

I just transitioned tonight tho liquid mirtz. I've been on 1/8 of a 15mg pill (1.87) since last week of feb. tonight the liquid has been somewhat stimulating. I'm wide awake @ 1:30 am and it looks like its going to be another long nite. I was expecting this so I took a total of 1.8mg tonight so I may go down to 1.75 mg tomorrow. After an entire day of depression I feel so amped up !

[Miami1]

Hello everyone ; I maybe got 3 hrs sleep last night. My switch from pill to liquid kept me up and racing last night. I hope I can tolerate it better tonight. I dosed 1.8mg last night in two doses.First dose 1mg at 8:30 pm second dose .8mg at 9:30 pm. initial one mg dose was initially a bit stimulating but tolerable the second dose of .8 mg wasn't felt as a rush but did keep me amped up for a while.

My question is since I've been cutting and weighing my doses(1.87mg) even though it was close ,I know it was not the same so where should start dose be on the liquid ? After last night my thought is to go down to 1.7 or 1.75 ? I assume I'm getting revved up cause liquid is much faster acting as well as maybe I was dosing less? I need to find a dose that I can sleep on and that I won't destabilize me anymore than I currently am.

Thk you all

[Bayboy]

Hi Miami 1, I found the same thing happened to me when I switched to liquid. I didn't expect that to happen, perhaps I missed something in a thread about liquid compounds. Anyways, the next night wasn't as bad. Hope you feel better soon, hang in there.

[Miami1]

Thx BB, I see you been weathering the never ending storm as well. I thought benzo ct was the worst,but this is wayyy up there!

When u switched to liquid did you go to same dose? My situation is that even if I was weighing my 1/8th of 15mg pill,I would have weight variations. Maybe that's why I was yoyo-ing up down? I would weigh a few doses for the week so I would weigh one 15 mg pill and divide it by 8, giving me 13 grams. I would then weigh it the following day and I'd get a different reading sometimes as much as 2-3 grams over sometimes less. I realize you where on 7.5 which is an easy and fairly accurate cut, my question did you think about lowering the dose when you felt revved up at first dose?

Good luck BB

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

Hi Miami--

 

 

 

Like I said here: "You're probably still experiencing benzo withdrawal, as well as increased sensitivity to changes in the mirtazipine due to the benzo withdrawal. So stabilizing is probably not going to be an overnight or straightforward process. At this point if you can reinstate to a daily dose (same amount, measured accurately, same time or times every day) the hope will be to get some relief of symptoms, but you're probably going to continue to have ups and downs for a while. Don't be alarmed. This will resolve over time."

 

Your situation isn't as straightforward as some people's. Your benzo withdrawal is compounding your mirt withdrawal, and vice versa. Unfortunately our nervous systems are not made of separate little compartments. Everything interacts with everything else. 

 

I think your best bet is to just hold still with your current reinstatement for two or three weeks and see what happens, and study our Symptoms and Self Care section for nondrug approaches to help with symptoms. And talk to people here and get lots of support for getting through this.

 

After two or three weeks if you feel you want to reinstate a bit higher you can give that a try, but only in very tiny steps (say from 1.87 up to 2 max) and then hold and wait for a long time again.

 

Benzo withdrawal, all by itself, tends to go in a roller coaster fashion. It will get better and people will think they're fine and out of the woods, and then it will hit again and people will be sick for weeks or months. This is typical. I've never met anyone who did a benzo CT who was feeling consistently well five months later. 

 

So the fact that you're not getting daily improvement is not a bad sign and is not a surprise. 

 

 

It always helps to go back over your thread and read the advice you were given in the beginning. It helps whenever you start to panic and attempt to yo-yo your doses. Pay close attention to comments from the mods here, they should be your main guideposts.