jen84: Effexor withdrawal

[jen84]

Yes, the Dr did blood tests, and they came back with low iron. I have started to switch up my diet, more red meat specifically. I do eat a fair bit of spinach already, but I will have to incorporate more iron rich foods (lentils, broccoli etc). I have about two more months before I go for another test, so I'm hoping this will give me time to look at different options.

[jen84]

Last week I had 4 really good days! No anxiety, no depression, just feelings of normalcy and happiness. I saw my counsellor again last night, and we had a bit of a breakthrough on the anxiety/relationship front. It was intense and enlightening, and for once in a long time, I am feeling at ease. 

[Carmie]

7 hours ago, jen84 said:

Last week I had 4 really good days! No anxiety, no depression, just feelings of normalcy and happiness. I saw my counsellor again last night, and we had a bit of a breakthrough on the anxiety/relationship front. It was intense and enlightening, and for once in a long time, I am feeling at ease. 

 

Hi Jen, 

 

How wonderful you had four really good days. Just shows that our brains will eventually heal. It’s a really a long and slow process but we will get there in the end. It doesn’t feel like it when we’re in waves as the neuro emotions take over, but in our logical brain we know we will eventually heal. 

 

Wishing you all all the best with your continued tapering 💚

[jen84]

I had a really good window, almost 2 weeks!!! Im on day 4 of a wave now. The anxiety is a little easier to deal with after having the breakthrough with my counsellor, im not obsessing as much over my relationship. It still comes and goes though on my down days. My overthinking starts to spiral. Just trying to let it be anxiety and ride it out. Waiting for my next feel good days!

[jen84]

Update: coming up to 4 months at this 11.6 dose. Im definitely feeling stabilized, and more at ease. I don't know if im getting the wave/window that is attributed to withdrawal symptoms, i am still experiencing anxiety, but it seems to always be there. I have had a few days here and there where it is completely subsided, but for the most part there is always a lingering bit. I know wellbutrin itself can cause anxiousness, and a part of me is wondering if this anxiety is coming from the wellbutrin. 

 

I feel like im ready to decrease by 10%, I feel like I've stabilized as much as I am going to. 

 

I did try the magnesium, and have been taking 25mg 2xdaily for the past month or so. I also tried omega 3, but that made me way too jittery. So I'll stick to the mag. Ive also upped my iron and folate intake through diet.

 

My partner and I are ready to start trying for a baby, ideally in a month or two. Im still not 100% comfortable with being pregnant while on this stuff, so that might be pushed back a few more months.

[ChessieCat]

21 minutes ago, jen84 said:

I did try the magnesium, and have been taking 25mg 2xdaily for the past month or so.

 

You could try taking it 4 x daily.  See:

 

On 10/8/2011 at 6:22 AM, Altostrata said:

NOTE: Magnesium is more effective taken in divided doses throughout the day. There's no need to take one large daily dose, you'll absorb it poorly. You might find you can take 50mg or 100mg magnesium 4 times a day or so and it will help you relax. Build up slowly.

 

 

27 minutes ago, jen84 said:

I feel like I've stabilized as much as I am going to. 

 

Sounds like you have reached withdrawal normal.

 

Don't forget to only make one change at a time, ie don't make a reduction and increase the magnesium together.

 

On 10/5/2018 at 10:23 AM, jen84 said:

My overthinking starts to spiral.

 

This might help:  dealing-with-emotional-spirals

 

[Altostrata]

Hi, jen.

 

What times of day do you take your drugs, and their dosages? (When you have a chance, please add the drug names to the events in your signature. Please include Effexor.)

 

Are your symptoms worse at some times of day than others? What is your daily symptom pattern? Please keep daily notes on paper about your symptoms, when you take your drugs, and their dosages. Use a simple list format with time of day on the left and notation (symptom, drug and dosage) on the right.

 

[jen84]

Hi Chessie, thanks for the reply. I could try taking magnesium a few more times throughout the day, but I will wait until I am stable on my nee dose. I'm still seeing my counsellor and she is a huge help. 

 

Alto, I take the wellbutrin, right now 5mg, every morning around 630am, along with 25mg magnesium. I then take the other dose (5mg) around 7pm, along with 25mg magnesium. My mood is the worst in the morning, I am irritable and anxious. That usually wears off by 730am, sometimes later, I attribute that to be being at work and having other stuff to focus on. Sometimes I'm anxious for a few hours into the morning. I will have to start keeping better track of my symptoms, but I do know mornings are the worst.

 

I've updated my signature, it only allows 12 lines, so I've tried to squish everything in. I've only included the date on which I stopped taking Effexor, if needed I can try to cram more in there.

 

[jen84]

This morning I felt on the verge of crying, anxiety, depression. 830am it has lifted somewhat. 

 

Ive been doing some reading and came across the Brassmonkey slide method of micro-tapering... I'll see how this decrease goes in the next few week's, but I'm wondering if this may be a better way for me to taper? Eventually I will be holding my taper once we decide to start trying for pregnancy, but that could be a ways away.

[Gridley]

I've had good results using the Brassmonkey slide taper with my Lexapro.  It does seem to be a bit gentler and the two-week hold is beneficial.  Of course, it does take a little longer to taper.  With the 10% method, you go down by half your dosage every six months, whereas with the Brassmonkey method (because of the two-week hold), you go down by half every nine months.

[jen84]

Day 5 of the decrease:

This Morning was the first morning in a very long time, at least 4 months, where ive woken up with no anxiety. What a great feeling!!!! From what ive been reading, the Brassmonkey slide scale seems to be the way to go. Going back, I had a few decreases where I felt great for the first 3 weeks of the taper, then the anxiety would start creeping in. If I am keeping a constant taper going, with 2 week holds, maybe I can bypass the anxiety... Just a thought. Excited to give this a try In a month or two.

[ChessieCat]

On 11/6/2018 at 5:45 AM, Altostrata said:

Please keep daily notes on paper about your symptoms, when you take your drugs, and their dosages. Use a simple list format with time of day on the left and notation (symptom, drug and dosage) on the right.

 

Are you keeping notes?

 

Example:

 

6 a.m. Woke with anxiety
8 a.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
10 a.m. Stomach is upset
10:30 a.m. Ate breakfast
11:35 a.m. Got a headache, lasted one hour
12:35 p.m. Ate lunch
4 p.m. Feel a bit better
5 p.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
6 p.m. Ate dinner
9:20 p.m. Headache
10:00 p.m. Took 50mg Seroquel
10:20 p.m. Feeling dizzy
10:30 p.m. Fell asleep
2:30 a.m. Woke, took 3mg Ambien (NOT "took 1/2 tablet Ambien")
2:45 a.m. Fell asleep
4:30 a.m. Woke but got back to sleep

 

Many members find that the lower their dose gets the slower they need to go, either by reducing less and/or holding for longer.  Why taper paper: dose-occupancy curves

 

Here is the link: the-brassmonkey-slide-method-of-micro-tapering

 

You might find that taking more Magnesium helps.

 

[jen84]

I love the idea of keeping track of my moods, then my anxious self would have something to obsess over. Unfortunately im just not sure I can actually commit to it. What if I were to rate my day, say on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being fantastic? Today would be a 5, well a 3 this morning, a 6 this afternoon and a 4 this evening.  

 

This anxiety is getting to me. I practice CBT, I've spent a huge chunk of money on a counsellor, but I still have anxiety. I just can't seem to stop it. I'm wondering if i should have decreased the effexor after wellbutrin, but it's done now and here I am. I don't know what else I can do to ease my anxiety. Does anyone have experience with transendence? I'm considering trying it, but dont know much about it.

[ChessieCat]

How much magnesium do you take?  Do you take it once a day?

 

You don't have to rate your symptoms.

 

There are times when CBT doesn't seem to work and you need to use something different.  There are plenty of other non drug techniques you can try.  Some work better at different times/ with different symptoms.

 

Check out Claire Weekes.  She was a doctor who suffered from anxiety and learned and taught ways of coping.  There are videos available on YouTube.

 

Claire Weekes' Method of Recovering from a Sensitized Nervous System

 

Audio:  How to Recover from Anxiety - Dr Claire Weekes

 

I suggest you check out these links and gather some tools:

 

Audio:  First Aid for Panic (4 minutes)

Non-drug techniques to cope

 

dealing-with-emotional-spirals

 

Anxiety Stuff - all kinds of stuff about anxiety attacks and things that help ...
 

"AAF: Acknowledge, Accept, Float.  It's what you have to do when nothing else works, and can be a very powerful tool in coping with anxiety.  The neuroemotional anxiety many of us feel during WD is directly caused by the drugs and their chemical reactions in the brain.  Making it so there is nothing we can do about them.  They won't respond to other drugs, relaxation techniques and the like.  They do, however, react very well to being ignored.  That's the concept behind AAF.  Acknowledge, get to know the feeling involved, explore them.  Accept, These feelings are a part of you and they aren't going anywhere fast. Float, let the feeling float off as you get on with your life as best as you can.  It's a well documented fact that the more you feed in to anxiety the worse it gets.  What starts as generalized neuroemotinal anxiety can be easily blown into a full fledged panic attack just by thinking about it.

 

I often liken it to an unwanted house guest.  At first you talk to them, have conversations, communicate with them.  After a while you figure out that they aren't leaving and there is nothing you can do to get rid of them.  So you go on about your day, working around them until they get bored and leave.

 

It can take some practice, but AAF really does work.  I hope you give it a try."

[jen84]

Thanks for the reply ChessieCat. I am currently taking 25mg of magnesium twice a day, at 630am and 630pm. I take it at the same time I take the wellbutrin. I tried upping it to 50mg, and I think it added to my anxiety. For now, the 25mg is working. I will start taking it 3x a day though. 

 

I've just listened to an episode of Claire Weekes, this makes so much sense! I feel relieved, as she is describing my anxiety to a T! I am excited to listen and read more about what she has to say. 

 

You're right ChessieCat, maybe CBT isnt really working for me, I hadn't even considered that. I will continue with my counsellor though and continue the CBT, just an extra tool in the tool box. 

 

My 'house guests' are about to get a rude awakening, that I am not serving them hand and foot 24/7 anymore 😉. I will most certainly give AAF a try.

[ChessieCat]

Really pleased about Claire Weekes.

 

It is good to learn CBT.  I've renamed it Change Bad Thinking.  It has it's purpose, but because it's purpose is to challenge our thinking patterns it's not what is always needed.

 

So there is a spectrum of things to use, CBT at one end and AAF at the other.

[jen84]

I'm definitely having up and down moods the past couple of days. Pretty low depressions, then up to a mild feeling of ok'nish. The anxiety is still holding on strong, trying to practice just letting it be there.

 

I had a thought tonight, and maybe it's totally out there... Im just getting really tired of the anxiety, and want to be off wellbutrin. Has anyone ever gone on to micro doses of another drug while tapering? What if I were to go on a micro dose of a drug that relieves anxiety? Thus making it easier to get off wellbutrin? I think i would only need a very small amount, which would set me up for a future taper of said drug. I get that that is just adding to the future problem, but I'm really tired, and not sure what else to try. 

 

Once I stabilize after this decrease, I will be trying the Brassmonkey slide taper, but thought I would throw out the above comment and see what you all thought.

[Gridley]

We don't recommend going on another drug while tapering.  As you noted, it creates a future problem.  And you don't know what the effect of the new drug is going to be, positive or negative.

 

I sympathize that you want relief from anxiety, which is one of my main WD symptoms, but I would really stick with non-drug coping techniques.  It's great that Claire Weeks resonated for you.  I would continue to work with her techniques.

 

There's a simple yoga pose that I've found helps with anxiety.  Lie on the floor with your legs at a 90 degree angle on the wall, supporting your help and lower back as necessary with pillows.  If this is too strenuous, lie on the floor with your legs hooked onto a chair.

 

Epsom salt baths with baking soda can help with anxiety.

 

Hang in there, Jen.  You're making great progress.

 

 

[jen84]

Last Monday was my last visit with my counsellor, as she is closing her provate practice. It's all good though, as I was feeling ready to try this without her. 

 

I've been feeling better the past week. I'm trying really really hard to just let my anxiety float, let the thoughts not have any meaning and just sitting with the uncomfortable feeling. My obsessive thought about the relationship keeps coming back, but I am trying so hard to not give it any emotion. I think its getting better. It's been approx 8 mos that ive been having these thoughts, so I'd imagine it'll take a while to train my brain not to think like that.

 

Last week we went to yoga, and it's crazy how much that cleared my mind. I will try to attend more frequently. 

 

I've received Dr.Claire Weekes book in the mail, i have a bit if reading ahead of me. I will not let this stupid anxiety take control of me. I have gone through much much worse.

[btdt]

I used natural calm magnesium every night for a long time it helped me to sleep and seemed to take the edge of the days.  After a couple of years or so it stopped working I called the company got a new bottle for free to see if mine was too old or something but the new bottle did not work either.  I switched to Magnesium malate as I have fibro so they say and it is to be good for fibro I don't take it every day but hit and miss seems to be the way to go for me for now.  I take a lot of supplements now to try and treat the mcs... long ago I could not tolerate any.  

When I could not do the supplements I used tapping for anxiety... can't hurt anything and it is free on utube as well as the deep relaxation also on utube the one I like is the two honest guys video. 

Wishing you continued improvement and peace  B

[jen84]

This week has been a rough roller coaster.

 

I had an interview yesterday for a job/company that I've been working toward for years now. I think the interview went well, but time will tell. I believe it is bc of that interview, my anxiety has been crazy. I had a breakdown last night, and my bf and I even talked about breaking up. I know, im not supposed to act on my anxieties when im anxious, but I just can't get these thoughts out of my head. 

 

I know my thoughts about the relationship are not true, I discovered that with my last counsellor. I am just really tired of having these same obsessive thoughts. I am looking into finding a new counsellor, perhaps someone who might be more effective than my last one? I am wondering if anyone has suggestions of types of therapy to look into to get this earworm out of my head. 

 

We have plans for Xmas, new years, even this weekend. I am dreading it all. I am no longer excited about trips, no longer excited about seeing family. I feel like I'm losing interest in life. I am aware this may just be the anxiety talking, but when i have anxiety 24/7 it gets really hard for me to see that this will improve.

[jen84]

Over the last couple of weeks, ive been telling myself to let the thoughts float, as Dr.claire weeks suggests, let them float and accept the feelings, but I'm not able to get the thoughts to stop... I wonder if I should be telling myself to let the thoughts come, I've been trying it today and it seems to be easier to accept the thoughts. I just don't know what else I can do.

[wantrelief]

Hi Jen - Congratulations on coming so far in this journey off of psych meds!  I can only hope to be where you are someday.  I am having a lot of trouble with thoughts too and think you have the right idea.  We can't stop the thoughts but can work on how we react to them, accepting them and letting them go as best we can.  It isn't always easy though as some of the thoughts can be really scary or just plain weird.  It sounds like you are doing really well!

[jen84]

Wantrelief, thank you so much for your kind words. I'm sorry you're also suffering from anxiety, it's not a nice feeling at all, and i hope you are able to find a way of accepting it.

 

All day Friday I was practicing the "just let the anxiety come" instead of "just let the anxiety float", and it seemed to make a difference. There were times when i would even talk out loud, and really challenge the anxiety to do its worst. I was anxious all morning but lifted myself out of it mid afternoon, and felt great the rest of the night. It's been a while since I've had a calm mind like that. 

 

Sat morning they started coming back, but I kept repeating my new saying, and it had vanished within an hour or so. We had my staff Xmas party last night, at a house on the ski hill. These tend to get quite rowdy with all the drinking (I don't drink, at all). A few times the wave of anxiety would come, but again I repeated the phrase, and tried my hardest to just feel the uncortableness, and alas, it would pass. It was the intensity of anxiety that would normally stick around for hours, or even days.

 

I will keep trying my new phrase and trying to just accept the anxiety. So far, it seems promising. Im not sure if I'm challenging the anxiety though, and I hope that won't make it worse.

[jen84]

I was going to wait a few more days to post this, so i hope I'm not being premature with this post.

 

I just can't believe it!!! By altering my little saying by one word, it has allowed me to enter into the realm of acceptance. My obsessive thought is diminishing, and I am way more capable of letting the thoughts go. My obsessive thought used to taunt me all day long, hours and hours I spent thinking about it. Now, I am actually able to see that thought for what it is. I am still struggling with anxiety, moderate to heavy anxiety to boot. It is way easier to sit through it though, now that those thoughts are no longer dive bombing me from all directions.

 

I am not healed, but I believe I am on my way. On my way to understanding and accepting my anxiety. 

[wantrelief]

Wow, it sounds like what you are doing is really working - how wonderful your obsessive thought is diminishing!  It sounds like you have really gotten to a good place, Jen. 

 

If you don't mind, can you clarify what it is you are telling yourself that is helping?  

 

 

[jen84]

14 minutes ago, wantrelief said:

Wow, it sounds like what you are doing is really working - how wonderful your obsessive thought is diminishing!  It sounds like you have really gotten to a good place, Jen. 

 

If you don't mind, can you clarify what it is you are telling yourself that is helping?  

 

 

Hi WR, 

 

This has been a very long process of concluding my thoughts were obsessive. I went to a counsellor for approxinately 6 months, and it was determined with her that these were in fact obsessive. This is something I am fighting very hard for because my relationship is on the line. I've been researching this and realized the only way it will go away is to accept it. Thats when I tried "floating", and I was literally telling myself "let the thoughts float". This was not helping, as the thought would float and wouldn't go anywhere. So I started googling. I then altered my saying to "let it come", just let the anxiety come, let it be there. This seemed to have stopped the obsessive thoughts in their tracks. I don't know why or how. It has not stopped the anxiety, but if I can have anxiety without those thoughts, that is just fine with me. I don't know what acceptance really is, I hope im on the right track.

 

Overall, it's been a process of determining my actual feelings for my partner and discovering why I think this way. If I hadn't attended counselling, I would now be single and wondering how I messed up so bad. I hope this helps. 

[wantrelief]

Thank you so much for taking the time to further explain your process for working with the obsessive thoughts. Letting the thoughts and anxiety come and be there sounds like acceptance to me.   I think I've done more of acknowledging a certain thought and try to let it go but not really inviting the thoughts or anxiety to just come and be there.  I will try this and see if it helps.  Thanks again!

[jen84]

I really hope this helps for you. Please keep me up to date on your progress, I would love to know if this settles your thoughts.

[jen84]

The past few days have been ok. I've been struggling with a bit of depression, and anxiety. I am still learning the acceptance of my anxiety, which is making things easier over all. I no longer have 24/7 chest pain, my heart is calmer, my head is more quiet. I do still get anxious spells, but I'm trying to ride them out. These spells seem to pass within 15-20 mins. I talk myself through the panic, and as awful as it is, it may be getting easier to work through... Fingers crossed. I have a few anxiety triggers, mostly being in public and watching certain TV shows. I remember when I was coming off effexor, and cooking stressed me to the max. Cooking never bothered me before that taper, and I enjoy cooking again, so hopefully these new sensitivities will also pass.

 

It's been just over a month at this dose, im not ready to drop yet, but wonder if I should be preparing to do the brass monkey slide, instead of the 10% decrease? How would I find an oral syringe that will allow me to measure such small dosages? I looked on the internet, but I don't think I can buy just one syringe, I think it's mostly bulk orders? Would a pharmacy carry these? 

[jen84]

Its been a rough morning so far. My obsessive thoughts are coming back, and I don't know down from up. This is such a scary and lonely place to be in. It seems like the more I read about anxiety, and the more I try to accept it, the less my physical symptoms are, but my obsessive thoughts are still hanging around. Claire Weekes does mention it can take 2-3 months to fully get over this, it just seems so far away when im suffering. It just scares me so much to be having those thoughts, but not having the anxiety symptoms im used to, at least when my chest was tight, I knew it was anxiety.

 

I believe im fearing that 2nd fear she talks about, I just don't know how to stop thinking about it. This week I have an appointment for accupuncture on Tuesday, and i will also look for a new counsellor. Sometimes i think I can do this without a counsellor, but I think it would be beneficial for me to have someone to talk to, other than my partner.

[jen84]

Last night we had my partners Xmas party. I was actually looking forward to it, until we started driving there. I started getting anxious, not about anything in particular, just anxious. Once we were there, I handled myself pretty good and was able to keet up the small talk (which has always been a struggle for me). I even had a good, genuine laugh... My partner commented after we got home that it's been a very long time since he's heard me genuinely laugh like that. After we got home, I felt quite overwhelmed and even broke down crying.

 

Today has been one of my roughest days yet. Crying on and off, mini panic attacks, headache, unable to get out of my head. I am trying so hard to just let it come and be there, but this roller coaster is one of which I have a hard time riding through. When I have these bad days it is so hard to see that it will pass, it is so hard to remember back to the good times. My brain even tricks me into thinking the good times were all fake, that I've never actually felt good. Now that I type it, I know it sounds ludricous, I just cant seem to convince my brain. 

 

Does anyone have suggestions on types of therapies I could try? 

[jen84]

I think I'm feeling a tiny bit better today. Still very anxious, still have a headache and could cry at any moment, but not feeling as depressed. I've called in sick to work and am still in bed. Just trying to give my body some healing time.

[jen84]

Today is a very rough day. First of all, I called in sick to work, i did manage to get out of bed around 1030, and went to work for noon. I left work at 430, and cried the entire drive home. I've been crying on and off for the past 4 hours. I did keep track of my schedule and emotions today, I can post those if necessary. 

 

I emailed my boss tonight and told him what's going on with my anxiety. I dont know why I did that, reaching out for help I suppose. I have made contact with a few counsellors today, and should hopefully have an apt this week sometime. This is crazy, I feel out of control and I'm terrified. I dont know what to do, im trying to rode it out, but it just keeps coming at me. I dont know what to do.

[ChessieCat]

Yes, it would be helpful if you could post 3 or 4 days of symptoms notes.

 

Please check out these topics before your appointment.  It is important to be aware that a doctor's response will most probably to increase your drug, most probably to a much higher dose than SA would suggest, and/or add in a new drug or change drug.

 

How do you talk to a doctor about tapering and withdrawal?

What should I expect from my doctor about withdrawal symptoms?

 

You might want to consider trying a small updose.  This would be preferable to adding/changing to a new drug.   And then after stabilising you could taper by less than 10%.  Many members find that the lower the dose gets the slower they need to go, reducing by less and/or holding for longer.  Why taper paper: dose-occupancy curves

 

You can see from the graphs in that topic that there can be what has been termed an oh-oh point.  This can be different for different members and different drugs.  And some members find that as they are getting to the lower doses that some doses seem to be harder to get past then others, then they will be fine for a while and then at a different lower dose they will have issues.

[jen84]

This is the first of the two days I've documented, this is from yesterday, which is by far worse than today 

 

6am- woke up, high anxiety

6:30- took 5mg wellbutrin, went back to bed

9- woke up, still somewhat anxious

9:30- anxiety starting to ease

10:30- took 25mg magnesium, got out if bed

11- not much motivation to get ready for work.

12- arrive at work

12:50- anxiety in chest, occupied by work

2- anxiety comes back

2:30- getting very tired

3:30- anxious, headache starts, very emotional

4- anxiety decreasing, getting more energy

4:30- left work, started crying

5- home from work, stopped crying, took 25mg magnesium

7:30- took 5mg magnesium, anxiety picking up

8- started crying 

9- starting to feel better

10- 25mg magnesium

2:30am- woke up with anxiety.