Hello from WinstonWolf

[WinstonWolf]

Hi,

 

I've been reading post for a week now and decided to chime in.  My a/d history is way longer than shown in my signature.  I've been on about 12 different a/d's over 20 years.  I have come to the realization that these things don't work long term and don't work for everybody.  I will be completely off the celexa in about 2-3 weeks and know it's going to be tough.  

 

My doctor told me that w/d effects only last about 1 week!  I know this to be false as do all of you reading this.  I understand why the dr is saying this though.  She can't afford to be truthful.  Being truthful could do two things that she wouldn't want.  First, it could cause me to freak out and she therefore wants to downplay the effects as a way to lessen the chances that I'll compound the situation.  Secondly, she is protecting the profession that has served her for many years (to admit that w/d can last way longer and have negative effects that are many, she is admitting her profession is flawed).  

 

I explained that I want out and she said it's a good idea…what?  She said she never saw any improvement on the meds so why not see how going off works for me.  She followed that with "you will need to go back on eventually".  

 

I am so hoping to prove her wrong but time will tell.

 

WW

 

p.s: I am still keeping a supply of klonopin (as needed) and ambien (been on nightly for 5 years).  I figure these can be tapered later (if at all).

 

 

 

 

 

[nz11]

Winston wolf welcome.

You are right your doctor is  clueless and very misinformed.

So you have been taking 2 ssris at the same time ?? That is opening you up to serotonin syndrome and that is very dangerous. Your doctor should know better than that. 

You are not tapering properly you must stop and reassess your plan. Follow the advise here.

you have been on this stuff for a long time you must taper at the 10% per month as rec here . You may well have to go slower.

 

Looks like your doctor is trying to cover wdl with a smorgasboard of chemicals and that is like playing wack a mole. Your doc is doing all she can to prove herself right. Sounds like your doc has done this to others if she is talking from experience/inexperience/shameful ignorance! If this merry-go-round has been going on for 20 years then it is nothing short of a disgrace. I am so sorry you are in this position. 

 

Were you stable in dec on 20 mg of paxil? maybe not if they threw/added 20 mg of celexa at you in feb?

 

imo the best thing is to choose one drug and one only stabilize on it and then taper properly.(you will need to put aside several years to taper...thats right several years) It is dangerous to take benzos as dependancy is quickly established hence to keep these out of the equation will help win the the war.

 

Your situation is rather tricky from what i see and hopefully a mod will be in soon to point you in the right direction.

 

Well done on finding SA . People here can help you prove your doctor wrong!

[WinstonWolf]

Silver Star,

 

Thanks for replying.  I was taking two ssri's because I was transitioning from paxil to celexa.  I guess the fairly low dose is the reason she didn't have me completely rid my body of the first poison before beginning with poison #2 (celexa).  

 

Were you stable in dec on 20 mg of paxil?

 Not sure what stable means.  I had been tapering lexapro and transitioning to paxil in nov '14 - dec '14.  I was only on paxil for about 4-5 months.  I began at 20mg, took for about 3 months, then began to taper.

 

You will need to put aside several years to taper...thats right several years.

  What if I was only on it for a few months at a relatively low dose?  Did my drop from paxil 20mg to 10mg begin the hell since my body was reacting to the 10mg drop?  I think the answer is obviously 'yes'. My dr says no problem going to 5mg next and then zero.  You're saying it should be more measured?  Why? To ease the effect on my body?  I think I know the answers to all my questions here.  

 

On another note….I have a brother who's NEVER taken a psych drug in his life.  He's 50 years old and going through a very tough time.  Trouble focusing at work, trouble sleeping, anxiety (all things I experienced decades ago).  He is now on seroquel, buspar, and remeron.  He's been taking for just a couple of weeks now.  I know it's not a long term solution but I told him it will help for the short term.  He's very very different, confused, scared, asking about suicide (ideation only in my h opinion).  I assured him it will help in a few weeks.  I know that sounds hypocritical and I am having trouble reconciling with my experience but I think it could be a short term help.  Is that crazy?  What else should he consider?  I told him therapy is absolutely needed.  

 

I am sorry for the long rant.  I blame it on my psychiatrist!  I blame everything on her actually…including the middle east conflict!

 

Thanks for listening.

 

WW

[clearday]

My doctor told me that w/d effects only last about 1 week!  I know this to be false as do all of you reading this.  

 

She followed that with "you will need to go back on eventually".  

 

I am so hoping to prove her wrong but time will tell.

 

Even the most ignorant of doctors say that withdrawal lasts up to two months after stopping the drug. So your doctor sounds quite ignorant.

 

It has been long established that acute withdrawal lasts around two months, often followed by a few months of neurological stability.

 

Then protracted SSRI withdrawal may strike, in the form of tardive (delayed) onset of severe SSRI withdrawal symptoms. This is also long established, just not acknowledged by most doctors. Quite a few prominent doctors have been warning about protracted SSRI withdrawal for over ten years.

 

Those protracted WD symptoms often include severe insomnia, akathisia (severe restlessness), paresthesia (tingling, numbness, burning around the body), head/ear pressure, tinnitus, and unusual anxiety. They strike seemingly out of nowhere months after stopping SSRIs. These are not symptoms of depression or anxiety, they are symptoms of nerve damage from SSRIs. 

 

We don't know exactly why these symptoms strike months later, we just know that in fact this is what is happening. This is based on thousands of stories of people going off SSRIs who are reporting more or less the same thing. 

 

Those symptoms often come and go in waves over the course of 1 - 3 years. Often with slow but gradual healing.

 

While it is often difficult, many people weather the storm of protracted SSRI withdrawal for a year or more, and largely recover.

 

When your doctor says "you will need to go back on these drugs eventually", that is her way of saying (whether she realizes it or not) that you will "need" to go back on the drugs to address protracted withdrawal, not to address any underlying mental conditions you may have.

 

We shouldn't have to go back on a psych med simply to address withdrawal. That's like telling a heroin addict to go back on heroin to avoid withdrawal.

 

In order to minimize withdrawal symptoms, it is advised here to slowly taper off your medication. Even after your taper is complete, varying amounts of protracted withdrawal may happen in the months after complete discontinuance. Hopefully that will be tolerable until more healing restores your body to normalcy.

 

Here is the recommended taper schedule:

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1024-why-taper-by-10-of-my-dosage/

[Altostrata]

Welcome, WinstonWolf.

 

How are you feeling since you switched to 10mg Celexa? You've been on that dosage for about 3 weeks, is that right?

 

Did you have any odd symptoms while you were making the switch? Did you go right from 20mg Paxil to 10mg Paxil plus 20mg Celexa?

 

As you've been on Ambien so long, you can assume you are physiologically dependent on it. You will need to taper it to go off. It's intended for only short-term use. Please put ALL the drugs you take in the Drug Interactions Checker http://www.drugs.com/drug_interactions.html and post the results in this topic.

 

(nz, that combination at that dosage is not likely to cause serotonin syndrome, although it may be too activating.)

[WinstonWolf]

Clearday,

 

Thanks for your reply.  I am not sure my dr is 'ignorant' as much as protecting a lifelong lie.  She's not doing this for the $ as she is seeing me for next to nothing.  Very generous of her (I've been out of work..).  She's just full of herself saying she has 40 years of experience, DO NOT read websites (like this one) as this will just alarm you.  I told her that I want to be as informed as possible and that can't be a bad thing.  Wrong!  She says I need to just trust her.  I explained that she barely knows me and she's so sure of my problems.  She means well but I do believe she's hurting patients with this rigid stance.

 

She convinced me a year ago that I was ADD.  I told her I am def anxious and depressed for decades but ADD, I don't think so.  Oh yes, you definitely are.  I said I am not hyperactive.  Well, there is a non-hyper component to ADD.  I said that stimulants are usually overwhelming to me (tried cocaine years ago and felt like I wanted to jump out of my skin!, too much coffee does the same).  She stood firmly with her diagnosIs.  I was so lost and looking for help that I went for it.  Took low dose of adderall and remember the first day completing tasks that I had let pile up for months.  This was amazing.  The next 3 days were just hell so I stopped it.  She has since stood firmly that I am definitely ADD and should go back on ritalin or adderall.  I asked how she was so damn sure I'm ADD.  Because of your history of failed jobs.  That's it!  That could be from anxiety and depression….No!

 

When she said I will be back for another a/d eventually I asked how she could be so sure. I asked whether she's ever had a patient start an a/d and stop taking it after a short period of time because it helped and they didn't need it anymore.  No, never!  I suppose you are right, she's saying they all come back because of  protracted w/d.  I think I finally get it (after 20 years)!

 

My dr.'s taper policy is this:  Go from the 20mg to 10mg for about 2 wks.  Then 5 mg for two wks.  Then 5mg every other day for two wks.  Then nothing.  I get that a lot of you guys feel that a more measured taper will be easier on the process (although it would be more drawn out).  

 

My biggest problem is that I don't have good records (nor does my dr.) of what I've been on, what dose, how I tapered, how I reacted to the taper, etc.  It's all a big blur for me.  That is on me I suppose but it is what it is.  I now find myself with my current reality/hell and will go forward as best I can without memory/records of past events.  Another problem is that there are so many variables (as any scientist knows, you need to isolate the variable to see the effect, etc) currently.  I have benzos in my system, two a/d's, just started with prilosec for GERD, steroid nasal spray for allergy (nasocort).  When I have a symptom (insomnia, anxiety, depression, nausea, etc.) I have no clue what is the cause.  I'm sure that is a problem for a lot of people, right?  

 

Anyway, sorry for the l-o-n-g rant.  I am happy to have found this site and appreciate all the support.

 

WW

[WinstonWolf]

Alto,

 

Thanks for your reply/concern.

 

Yes, I've been at the 10mg celexa for about 3 weeks (after 2-3 months at 20mg).  I am all over the map as far as symptoms.  I had what I deemed to be 2 panic attacks a week ago.  Went to gp and he said it's probably w/d from celexa or paxil.  Took blood to be sure and everything is beautiful. Since then it's been better.  I am having insomnia (even with ambien).  I've lost about 12 lbs (fr 170 to 158) in about 9 months.  I don't eat much as I'm depressed..

I have a chronic cough too.  Gotta be unrelated but it's a non productive cough, gp said my breathing (stethoscope..) was fine.  Is this a w/d symptom?  I did some research and think it may be from GERD so I am taking prilosec since I've read that constant cough is a symptom of GERD (not everyone gets heart burn).  

 

Did you go right from 20mg Paxil to 10mg Paxil plus 20mg Celexa?

 Yes, I went from 20mg paxil on monday to 10 mg paxil AND 20 mg celexa on Tuesday.  I was told this was no problem.  About a month later I was off the Paxil.

 

Thanks for your concern/comments/questions,

 

WW

[Altostrata]

How did you react when you added Celexa to Paxil? How did you feel when you dropped the Paxil?

 

When did the cough start?

 

Many people do better with fish oil and magnesium supplements, see
http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/36-king-of-supplements-omega-3-fatty-acids-fish-oil/
http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1300-magnesium-natures-calcium-channel-blocker/
 

[WinstonWolf]

Alto,

 

How did you react when you added Celexa to Paxil? How did you feel when you dropped the Paxil?

  This is so hard to answer.  I don't really remember.  I have had insomnia, anxiety, lack of appetite, body weakness, chills, etc.  The insomnia is treated with ambien but that seems to work for only 4-5 hours these days.  The anxiety is treated with klonopin (anywhere btwn .5mg to 1mg as needed).  The lack of appetite comes and goes for years it seems (although i've only recently lost weight). The chills would be the only one that is very new (around the time I had stopped paxil).

 

When did the cough start?

  This is a tough one to figure.  In 07/14 I had it terrible and dr said it was bronchitis.  Gave me three inhalers (1 steroid and two rescue), antibiotics (detrimental probably), and a PPI (like prilosec).  As I remember, it lasted until 12/14 (although the severity wasn't as high at the end).  It came back in 03/15 as a nagging constant dry cough. I made the connection between beginning celexa in 06/14 and then again in 04/15.  I concluded that it could be the celexa causing this very new/troubling cough.  That's the reason I decided to taper the celexa.  I have no idea if the celexa caused this cough or if others have widely reported similar.  

 

Thank you,

 

WW

 

 

[Petunia]

Hi Winston,

I had the same kind of chronic cough most of the time I was on Lexapro (which is very similar to celexa), but I never made the connection until I stopped taking lexapro. I got the same kinds of symptom suppressing treatments - inhalers, a/b and PPI, all adding to the drug damage.

 

I'm now off all drugs, but in protracted withdrawal and there's not much I can do about it but wait. So I suggest you listen to advice you get here, especially from Alto and learn as much as you can about careful tapering. There's a lot of good information here on the site.

 

You have been on these kinds of drugs a long time, so you can't expect to get off them safely in a few weeks, or even months. Realistically, its probably going to take at least a year, maybe longer, but you can do it if you are prepared to be patient.

 

I highly recommend you get hold of a copy of  Anatomy of an Epidemic by Robert Whitaker. 

 

I'm sorry to hear that your brother is now heading down into the same trap. Theoretically, possibly, maybe, taking an 'antidepressant' or sleeping pill for a very short time could be helpful, but in reality, most people end up taking these addictive drugs for much longer and then find it close to impossible to come off them, all the while experiencing more and more side effects and increasing health problems, which then get suppressed with more drugs.

 

Maybe this link would be more helpful for your brother:

 

Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

 

I'm glad you found us, you will find a lot of support here.

 

Petunia.

[WinstonWolf]

Thanks so much Petunia.

 

I appreciate your input/support. I will check out the Robert Whitaker book.  

 

WW

[Altostrata]

WW, it could be you've had an adverse reaction or withdrawal from a drug switch causing sleep disruption for 5 years.

 

Have your symptoms gotten worse since you dropped the Paxil?

 

You might want to see Dr. Stuart Shipko in Pasadena.

[nz11]

Winston i am also so sorry to hear that your brother is heading into this slippery sloped rabbit hole called psychiatric thuggery by druggery. 

 

Sometimes i think pharma's secret weapon are family members.

You might like to get your brother to read this sites info. 

 

I would like to tell you that after getting off this stuff i also have a cough ...its an unusual kind of cough it reminds me of a smokers cough yet i have never smoked in my life. Im not too sure what has caused it but i never used to have a cough.

 

 

My dr.'s taper policy is this:  Go from the 20mg to 10mg for about 2 wks.  Then 5 mg for two wks.  Then 5mg every other day for two wks.  Then nothing.  I get that a lot of you guys feel that a more measured taper will be easier on the process (although it would be more drawn out).  

So what your doctor is saying is regardless of time on the drug do a 6 week taper. Well that maybe ok if you have only been on the drug for a month or less.

Lets put it in perspective a 10% per month of previous dose as rec here and which is proving to give the best chance of escape from these drugs takes 30 months if you taper from 20 mg, NOT one and a half months. This is why your doctor has no success stories and is guaranteeing repeat business. "I asked whether she's ever had a patient start an a/d and stop taking it after a short period of time because it helped and they didn't need it anymore.  No, never! "

 

Clearday above has given you the link to why taper at 10% its well worth checking out.

 

When i was told by my doctor to come off slowly and sent on my way ...i actually went to several pharmacists to ask them for a taper schedule they all told me they dont have tapering schedules ...but one pharmacist told me he knew of no-one who had ever got off this drug ...thats when my heart sank and it dawned on me what i had let myself in for. Just recently i met with our family pharmacist for over 20 years to wish him a happy retirement as he was retiring ..he quietly said to me : " i could never understand why one of the NZ boys was put on paroxetiine ...nz11 you deserve a medal for getting off that drug because we have many people on our books who cannot get off it."

 

I don' buy this my doctor doesnt have good records isn't your doctor legally and ethically required to keep accurate records. They are being paid to do so. Surely! 

 

The  good folk here can walk you through a proper taper.

[WinstonWolf]

NZ,

 

Thanks for your reply.

 

My doctor has said to me a few times "there really isn't any w/d effects but you are a bit sensitive so do the 6 week taper".  

 

Regarding my brother, I am scared for him because he's on 3 new meds (two a/d and seroquel) after never in his life taking a psych med (not even alcohol or pot, in his entire life!) and is in the first 2 weeks so his body is adjusting to this poison.  I could sit him down and show him this site or have a talk about the dangers of psych drugs etc., but he's in no condition to hear it.  Then he'll feel like he has no outs left..  I did tell him that I think it's a good idea SHORT TERM.  I am not sure there is even such a thing.  This is where the pharma industry has cornered the market.  It's the same way an auto mechanic can take you for a $ride$ when you break down in the middle of nowhere, you are at their mercy and in no position to consider options.

 

I am almost sure that if I asked my doctor to check to see what my a/d history is for the last 2 years she could not produce anything. She is to psychiatry as Saul Goodman was the the legal profession (Breaking Bad reference..).  When I finally leave her I am tempted to tell her the truth about the damage she's doing to patients, even though she's been very generous (seeing me for next to nothing).  I do believe record keeping is required but who's checking into this?  Nobody!

 

I suppose a 'proper taper' would require the liquid form of celexa (otherwise it's hard to be precise, especially since the prescription I have is 20mg tablets…try cutting that into 2mg!).

 

Thanks again, this site is very comforting.

 

WW

[nz11]

So you are sensitive to drugs ..in other words your doctor is saying YOU are the problem and not the poison.

Funny i was told the same thing too. If your doctor really believesthat why is she continually throwing different drugs at you. ..??

 

Petu has rec a great book and here is one i rec for your brother it might be the best $34 you have ever spent. It may be available from your local library. Its called Psychiatric drug withdrawal. Though its not exactly about drug wdl its about the damage these drugs do and why not to take them. It could be a good way to shake and wake your brother to what he is exposing himwself to

http://www.breggin.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=296

If your brother is not interested then ask him if the doctor warned him about pssd.

 

I may go to the audience for this one...

Do people think its ok to CT 3 ad's after only 2 weeks use.?? ....any mods out there?

 

My limited understanding is that dependency is est after a month and for benzos its about a week ...it wouldnt surprise me though if it was a week for ad's too though.

Are you able to get the names and dosages of your bros 3 drugs ?

 

Personally my feeling is these drugs are not fit for human consumption for a long-time, short-time or for any-time. But i guess i am biased, after being trapped in a mind numbing kaefkaesque anosognosic world for many years.

 

Yep liquid is best for tapering many are using it. You could get a scale though many are doing that too. Spend some time reading on this site.Nothing like being informed.

 

Wow do you live in the same locality as Dr Stuart Shipko .....definitely go and see him !

[WinstonWolf]

NZ,

 

Yes, I am the weak one and the drugs are beneficial..  You seem surprised.  I am not surprised since admitting these things may not be what was initially thought is like admitting the profession that you've chosen is hurting people.  My doctor is in denial!  She can't afford to admit (after 40 years) that it's all a ruse.

My doctor is continually throwing drugs at me because she believes staying on them for life is the only way.  This way withdrawal is never an issue.

 

Regarding my brother, I know he's on 50mg seroquel for insomnia, Buspar (not sure dosage), and remeron (not sure dosage).  The problem that I see with sitting him down and unveiling the curtain is that he feels desperation right now. If I tell him to dump the meds he'll wonder what to replace them with.  When he went on the meds it was a very new thing and a big step.  He did it because a doctor says it will help.  He's not being offered any other solutions out there and he thinks he's going crazy.  Why wouldn't he go for it even at a risk.  That's why I told him it'll help but make sure it's SHORT TERM.  

 

Regarding liquid form of ad, I imagine not all drugs are available in this form and there probably is push back by insurance companies (I'll have to pay an outrageous price..).  

 

I am about 15 miles from Dr. Shipko (Pasadena, CA).  You think I should see him?  I've read some of his posts on this website.  Maybe I'll call him now.

 

Thanks

[Altostrata]

Yes, to taper Celexa, the liquid form of the drug is most convenient. See Tips for tapering off Celexa (citalopram)

 

However, I am concerned you are suffering from dropping the Paxil. Please do your best to answer my questions. Thank you.

[nz11]

Of course the drugs are beneficial you are an addict.  

I'm a recovering addict.

 

'One must first convince themselves they are doing a great good before they can do a great evil'....this probably applies to the doc. else some serious cog dissonance would set in. Maybe!

 

Yep i'd say definitely go and see Shipko. Don't hesitate. My guess is he may be  very very busy. 

 

oops sorry you already mentioned your brothers drugs,,,,i missed it....wow seroquel = an antipsychotic ...for insomnia? ..give me a break. Goodness me that doesnt sound right. Remeron is an a/d dont know much about buspar - an antianxiety  ..probably to cover the other drugs side effects.

Your brother might like to go to Shipko too. No harm in getting a second opinion.  

 

 

These drugs have left me with insomnia ..i have no intention to take something for it. Insomnia is not so bad compared to drug induced akathisia or a combo of both.

 

Good luck

[WinstonWolf]

Alto,

 

It's very possible I am suffering from the paxil w/d.  My problem is this, I don't have good records (journal), by dr. doesn't have records, my memory is a blur, and so I am having to wing it.  Not the way to do this but here I am.  I only took paxil for about 3-4 months, beginning with 20mg, tapering to 10mg after say 2 months, and jumped off about 3 weeks ago.  Wondering why that one is on your mind.  Is it because paxil is tougher to get off of than celexa is?  To complicate matters, I also decided to CT klonopin around the same time as paxil taper ended.  I was only on klonopin on an as needed basis so it's hard to determine the effects.  So many moving parts!  I have decided that I'll use the klonopin as needed while I am experiencing the paxil/celexa w/d.  

 

Thank you for the liquid celexa link.  

 

WW

[WinstonWolf]

NZ,

 

I reached out to Shipko and he said he does accept insurance (thank God as I have been out of work lately.  Very hard to hold down a job under these circumstances..) so I will probably try to see him next week if possible.  Thanks.

 

Regarding my brother's meds, Seroquel is fairly common in the treatment of insomnia.  The stuff I've read says that treatment of insomnia is between 25-75mg whereas for the antipsychotic treatment much more (300-400mg?).  It's probably regarded as an aggressive treatment for insomnia (as opposed to ambien, trazadone, etc.).  Remeron is one I am familiar with as I took it for about a year back in 2010/2011?  It was different than other meds (for me) in that it helped me sleep and I gained 15 lbs. Buspar is not something I'm familiar with.  

 

I just googled akathisia.  I was unfamiliar with it and am horrified that you or anybody has to experience that as a result of these meds.  I would agree that insomnia is the better evil.  BTW, I recently had my annual physical with my GP (who's a great dr).  I expressed some concern regarding consumption of 10mg ambien for 5 years now.  He said he has a patient who's been on it way longer and has not found the need to increase dosage (seems questionable to me).  He concluded with the following statement "If you do decide to begin a taper of ambien, how do you decide that this is the night I will begin".  In other words, it is a hell waiting for you and why would you want to enter hell if you could defer it for a lifetime.. He means well but he is like almost all doctors these days in that he can't afford to address this issue for real.  That is not something he's willing to take on. Sad.

 

All my best,

 

WW

[Altostrata]

WW, the reason I ask is because sometimes the substitution of an antidepressant does not completely eliminate a withdrawal reaction. Now that you mention going off Klonopin -- yes, that is a confounding factor. Ambien could be involved too.

 

Please keep notes on paper of your daily symptom pattern relative to when you take your drugs.

 

Also, please put ALL the drugs you take in the Drug Interactions Checker http://www.drugs.com/drug_interactions.html and post the results in this topic.