VictorTheMewtwo: the long slog on fluoxetine

[VictorTheMewtwo]

Hello everyone,

 

I came across this site a little while ago and over the last few months, it has given me a great deal of insight as to how I should treat myself and, hopefully, come back from the horror that has been the last year.

 

So to begin, I was always prone to depression throughout my teen's as a result of being abused and tormented in school at young age, so going through college with irrational thoughts as a constant theme crossing my mind was just natural. It's probably why I became an artist in the first place! About midway through, i'd gotten into a pretty messy break-up (Oh young love), and suddenly found myself spiraling downward into something else entirely. I was sent to my family doctor who simply shook his head and said, "It's just depression," gave me a prescription for something called 'Celexa', and off I went. The medication DID help, but i'd only had money enough for about 6-7 months worth, and knowing what I know now, am still a bit fuzzy as to what kind of withdrawal effects I may have had after stopping it altogether.

 

Well time passed, and I wasn't able to find work after a couple years of searching and trying to hone my artistic skills to no avail. Eventually, I began having various symptoms that scared me at the time, though I know now as being associated with a low vitamin B12 level. Back I went to the family doctor, who, scratching his head in confusion, sent me to a specialist, a psychiatrist.

 

This 'psychiatric professional' told me about the wonders of the various drugs at the time, and how they could help make life so much easier to navigate. Being in desperate need of an answers, I was all like, "Hey, okay! I was sent home with a prescription for Fluoxetine (Prozac).

 

I'm going to fast forward a little, as in the time-span between starting the Prozac and stopping, i'd gone back to school to acquire my Bachelor of Arts in Animation and try my hand again at looking for meaningful work, to suddenly having that anti-depressant cause most of the issues it was supposed to 'help fix' in the last five years since graduating. Never ONCE was I told by my psychiatrist, whenever I called him for a refill, that this medication should only be used in the short term. Over TEN YEARS of use, from the first 3-4 being fairly stable, to having it slowly lose it's effectiveness, to outright causing most of my issues.

 

And now the truly major event that began this whole train-ride to hell. A little over a year ago from when I typed out this introduction, I was diagnosed with a pair of massive blood clots in my leg, at age 32. (This is several months AFTER i'd been MIS-diagnosed by my family physician as to having gout.) Turns out, a combination of a sedentary lifestyle and a previously undiscovered genetic disorder in our family (Factor V Leiden) led to my developing a pretty terrifying blockage in my deep vein. I was placed immediately on an expensive name-brand anti-coagulant, which I was told by the "nurse practitioner" they sent me to, was my only option. Despite having given my medication list to them, they did not clue in to the fact that Fluoxetine is by far one of the WORST of the anti-depressants to take while on an anti-coagulant. An entire month of savage hell passed, with enormous panic attacks bordering on heart attack, the shakes, brain tears and zaps of all kinds, as well as a host of other problems I can't even remember, I figured it was all just the side-effects of the anti-coagulant (In this case, Xarelto). So I demanded to switch to a different brand, after finding out that that nurse hadn't known her arse from her elbow when knowing about the various meds that can be taken for this issue. ANOTHER month of hell, this time on Eliquis, and by the end of that, I'd demanded to switch to the old, tried-and-true Warfarin, Ye olde rat poison derivative. This one seems to work well enough, with some of the aforementioned side-effects disappearing.

 

THIS is where I had gone back to my psychiatrist and gave him an update as to what had been going on. And he non-chalantly told me that I shouldn't be taking Fluoxetine with an anti-coagulant, and thus told me that I needed to stop taking it. Immediately. No mention of weaning. No warnings. Nothing. He DID give me a prescription for Clonazepam at 0.5mg, which I have to this day, in order to help with the host of sleeping problems I'd been having.

 

A few weeks later, I discovered through the wonders of the internet, that what i'd been going through was not due to the anti-coagulants, but was in fact acute withdrawal from the Prozac. I told him this and he was surprised, and a little disbelieving. Not overly so, just enough to ensure I didn't lose it in his office. He gave me the option of starting on one of the other types that DO play well with Warfarin, and I turned him down, in part because I was disgusted with him and the entire medical system, and also because i'd gone this far after going cold-turkey, and wasn't about to start walking backwards.

 

So now, a year later from all this happening, i'm still slogging my way through these dark, muddy woods, hopping that there's a bright clearing at the end. It's been an awful time, but things HAVE gotten better. A few weeks ago I hit a pretty sweet window, and I keep telling myself that 'things WILL get better', like some kind of mantra. The more severe effects, such as the nocturnal panic attacks have lessened greatly, and only occur when my gastrointestinal system acts up, which can be irritating since it's the anxiety that can cause THAT to flare up. These days i'm dealing with the typical brain-fog and anhedonia associated with so much of the protracted withdrawal, but I still try to keep up hope that it'll all eventually get better.

 

And throughout this ordeal, the most painful part hasn't been the host of troubling withdrawal effects, it's been the lack of understanding from family and friends. They can't possibly know what it feels like from day to day, and after a while, they inevitably tire of the constant moaning and venting. That's been hard.

 

Anyways, thankya kindly for letting me share here. If nothing else, at least I proved to myself that I can still punch through enough of the brain-fog to type a letter of introduction! (Thank goodness for spell-check)

[Gridley]

Hello, Victor, and welcome to SA.  Sorry about everything you've been going through.  Congratulations on getting off the Prozac.  I'm glad your windows are increasing.  About your strange milestone of May 9, the symptoms will come and go (and perhaps come again).  These links explain the healing process your brain is going through:

 

Brain Remodelling

 

The Power of Neuroplasicity

(Especially take note of what Dr. Norman Doidge is saying in the second part of the video)

 

To help you understand the symptoms you are experiencing, here is some information on withdrawal.  

 

What is withdrawal syndrome.

 

Glenmullen’s withdrawal symptom list.

 

When we take medications, the CNS (central nervous system) responds by making changes over the months and years we take the drug(s). When the medication is discontinued, the CNS has to undo all the changes it made. Rebuilding the neurotransmitter production and reactivating the receptor and transporter cells takes time -- during that rebuilding process symptoms occur.  

 

Youtube video, 4 minutes: Healing from antidepressants

 

We don't recommend a lot of supplements on SA, as many members report being sensitive to them due to our over-reactive nervous systems, but two supplements that we do recommend are magnesium and omega 3 (fish oil). Many people find these to be calming to the nervous system. 

 

Magnesium, nature's calcium channel blocker 

 

Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil) 

 

Please research all supplements first and only add in one at a time and at a low dose in case you do experience problems.

 

Also, many members have found the non-drug techniques in the following links helpful in dealing with withdrawal.

 

The Dr. Claire Weekes Method of Recovering from a Sensitized Nervous System

 

Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms.

 

Best,

Gridley

 

 

 

 

[VictorTheMewtwo]

Thank you very much for the reply, the links you've provided are showing me a few things I hadn't thought of previously, particularly in supplements. I've been on Fish Oil capsules before but I never really felt a difference in mood or a lessening of the symptoms, but everything has been a roller coaster ride so maybe they did help without me knowing.

 

As for magnesium, it's not recommended to take it while on warfarin, since it can lead to a build up of the blood thinner in the system, which can result in internal bleeding, thus why i've stayed away from it altogether...

[Carmie]

Hi VTM, 

 

How are you doing?💚

[VictorTheMewtwo]

On 3/4/2019 at 2:18 AM, Carmie said:

Hi VTM, 

 

How are you doing?💚

I'm alive and well! Things are still dragging along with various neurological issues that crop up when i'm tired or stressed, particularly brain fog and dizziness throughout the day. And at night, depending on how much or what i've eaten, my stomach can still trigger minor panic episodes making it very difficult to get to sleep or just plain relax in the evenings. At this point i'd say i'm 60-70% of the way through, but i've no idea whether the rest will be permanent or not. I want to be hopeful but the withdrawal makes that difficult to the extreme.

 

I'm currently looking into possibly using CBD oil to help offset some of these problems, but i'm doing it as carefully as humanly possible since there isn't much research out there on the interactions between Cannabidiol and blood thinners. Only a couple case studies. I'll actually be speaking to my pharmacist tomorrow and *hopefully* getting them to help me coordinate and record the blood INR as I take small doses of the oil.

 

Aside from that, i'm still fighting!

[Altostrata]

Good to hear from you, Victor. Are you still having waves and windows? How's your sleep?

 

A lot of people find fish oil and magnesium supplements helpful, see
http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/36-king-of-supplements-omega-3-fatty-acids-fish-oil/
http://survivingantidepressants.org/topic/15483-magnesium-natures-calcium-channel-blocker/

 

Try a little bit of one at a time to see how it affects you.

[VictorTheMewtwo]

19 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Good to hear from you, Victor. Are you still having waves and windows? How's your sleep?

 

A lot of people find fish oil and magnesium supplements helpful, see
http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/36-king-of-supplements-omega-3-fatty-acids-fish-oil/
http://survivingantidepressants.org/topic/15483-magnesium-natures-calcium-channel-blocker/

 

Try a little bit of one at a time to see how it affects you.

 

Waves and windows at this point are a little harder to pin down. At times they still seem to occur as the typical window/wave format, but recently it's been much more scattered and greatly based on gastrointestinal issues. I've found that stomach troubles will trigger panic attacks at night, and when an attack starts to edge closer because of this, the mind will inadvertently reel and assume the worst, which feeds the attack that much more. I do think there are windows and waves, but not nearly as clear-cut as they once were. But to be fair, the waves were once FAR worse than they are now.

 

Sleep-wise most nights are fine, sometimes I need to concentrate a little harder on trying to relax. And sometimes it's a total roll of the dice. I still end up taking a Clonazepam to stem the panic some nights, and this alone depresses me greatly since i'm trying to get AWAY from such pharmaceutical crutches.

 

Early on in the withdrawal I had been taking Fish Oil to see if it would help. I also had low vitamin b-12 levels at the time and was taking a supplement for that. I still need to go in and get another blood test done in case they're down again. There was no noticeable difference while taking the fish oil, though considering how potent the waves were at the time, I probably just missed any positive effects in the hellish haze. I suppose I could get another bottle and see if they help with my most recent head problems (dizziness and pressure).

 

One other thing that DOES seem to be getting (slowwwwly) better is my ability to concentrate and remember. My short term memory is still pretty ragged, and concentrating on any piece of artwork or animation for an hour or more makes my head swim and spin, and brings up minor aches and pains in my chest, neck and back of the head. But when I was at the height of the withdrawal I could barely look at a screen or piece of white paper without feeling pained or nauseous.

 

I still hit the gym 4-5 times a week, and it's a huge boost to my mood and the increased blood flow makes me feel a heck of a lot better for a few hours. I'll always tout exercise as one of the premier ways to help alleviate problems caused by protracted withdrawal.

 

I'll take a look at the links you've provided too, and thanks again for the help!

[Altostrata]

Are the gastic symptoms linked to any particular foods? You may wish to keep a food diary, see

 

Elimination or exclusion diets for reactions to food (food intolerance)

 

Histamine intolerance

 

It seems if the gastic symptoms  got better, you'd see more progress.

[VictorTheMewtwo]

15 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Are the gastic symptoms linked to any particular foods? You may wish to keep a food diary, see

 

Elimination or exclusion diets for reactions to food (food intolerance)

 

Histamine intolerance

 

It seems if the gastic symptoms  got better, you'd see more progress.

 

As far diet goes, i've done all I can without starving myself, I have looked at various diets and some just aren't possible right now, terrible food is often cheap food. But i've had fewer problems when I eat salads and fruits. The biggest problem comes from tomato-based sauces, pasta and processed foods, which is an obvious vector for gastric distress, there's less bloating as well if I avoid these. I would gladly eat more greens but because i'm also taking Warfarin for my blood-clot condition, I have to limit anything that has large amounts of vitamin K...

 

In my current living situation I also can't completely avoid cheap food altogether, I have a razor-thin budget and have to make my dollar go as far as possible. And not everyone in the family is willing to give up these acidic, often spicy foods, or anything containing gluten, particularly since the rest of the family has never really taken my withdrawal seriously. As long as I also avoid over-eating I can typically keep things under control, or at least wait a while before bed to allow the bloating to clear and things to settle and digest. A lot of the digestive problems that cause panic attacks can also be attributed to feeling under the weather at times. This winter hasn't been all that kind to me in that regard.

 

As to reacting to specific foods, i've basically cut out spicy or overly spiced meals, unless it's snuck into the food by certain members of the family.

[Altostrata]

Perhaps you can cook lentils and rice for yourself, to avoid gluten and tomatoes?

[VictorTheMewtwo]

22 hours ago, Altostrata said:

Perhaps you can cook lentils and rice for yourself, to avoid gluten and tomatoes?

 

Rice I do cook often, I love my rice and the millions of things you can do with it. And it doesn't give me all that much trouble stomach-wise. As for lentils, that's something I can take a look at, not sure whether other people will like them but i'm willing to try them out! I'll have to soak them to minimize any gas they cause...

[Carmie]

Hi Victor, 

 

I’m sorry you’re getting so many gastrointestinal problems. It must be hard, as you said, on such limited finances to try different diets. I can’t eat gluten at all without being in pain. I think gluten and dairy are the two worst foods for most people. What are you actually eating?

 

I’m glad you’re able to do your artwork again, even if it’s for under an hour every time. It’s nice to see some progress on your way to healing. It can be a long and slow process, but we will all get there in the end. 

 

Wishing you all the best in your continued recovery 💚

 

 

[VictorTheMewtwo]

5 hours ago, Carmie said:

Hi Victor, 

 

I’m sorry you’re getting so many gastrointestinal problems. It must be hard, as you said, on such limited finances to try different diets. I can’t eat gluten at all without being in pain. I think gluten and dairy are the two worst foods for most people. What are you actually eating?

 

I’m glad you’re able to do your artwork again, even if it’s for under an hour every time. It’s nice to see some progress on your way to healing. It can be a long and slow process, but we will all get there in the end. 

 

Wishing you all the best in your continued recovery 💚

 

 

 

Hey there Carmie,

 

Thank you kindly for the well wishes, it's a long road to walk but someday, like you said, we'll all get there.

 

As for what i'm eating it tends to be a lot of rice, pasta, bread for sandwiches and canned foods like soup, and instant vegetables. We try to do fresh produce as much as we can, like lettuce for salads, peppers and various fruits, bananas, apples, etc.

Unfortunately, the cost of fresh produce seems to creep up on a monthly basis here in Canada, so every time I try to make a concerted effort to eat healthier it hits the budget harder than we thought it would. It's not ideal...

 

From what I can tell though, dairy doesn't seem to give me any real issues, I grew up in a household that LOVES its cheeses, and we always had various kinds to eat with or in meals, and to this day I don't see any real changes when we have any (And I mean REAL cheese, not processed american slices or things made by Kraft). The biggest contributor I think, aside from the tomato-based products or anything with a lot of salt, is the pasta and bread. But it's just so cheap that it is harder to pass up. That's why I try to limit how much I actually eat, so as not to get over-full and tempt fate as the gluten works its dark magic.

 

That being said though, i've seen a lot of people do tend to have issues with dairy here, so it was something that i'd watched out for early on in the process.

[Carmie]

Hi again Victor, 

 

I know that fruit and vegetables keep getting more expensive. Maybe vary what you buy by buying the things that are in season and not as expensive. If you add anything new into your diet and you react to it you know you can’t tolerate it.

 

I’m wondering if you can’t tolerate tomatoes because they’re  high in histamine?

 

I’m sorry about your gastrointestinal problems, but I would really consider not eating any gluten at all. Is your pasta and bread gluten free? I know it’s more expensive too, but if you’re having gastrointestinal problems and can’t afford gluten free pasta and bread, maybe it’s best to just stick to the rice. I can’t eat gluten at all without being in pain and feeling nauseas.

 

Take care💚

 

[VictorTheMewtwo]

23 hours ago, Carmie said:

Hi again Victor, 

 

I know that fruit and vegetables keep getting more expensive. Maybe vary what you buy by buying the things that are in season and not as expensive. If you add anything new into your diet and you react to it you know you can’t tolerate it.

 

I’m wondering if you can’t tolerate tomatoes because they’re  high in histamine?

 

I’m sorry about your gastrointestinal problems, but I would really consider not eating any gluten at all. Is your pasta and bread gluten free? I know it’s more expensive too, but if you’re having gastrointestinal problems and can’t afford gluten free pasta and bread, maybe it’s best to just stick to the rice. I can’t eat gluten at all without being in pain and feeling nauseas.

 

Take care💚

 

 

Seasonal vegetables and fruits are definitely on our list, or at least when we have a decent choice locally, this has been something we've done quite a bit. When eating tomatoes though, I can eat whole tomato without much of an issue, it's when tomato paste and sauce is used that I have problems. I've had gastric reflux in the past, particularly when eating a lot of acidic foods, so trying to cut out those pre-made items has been high on my list.

 

Yeah i've looked into gluten-free bread and pasta and because they're considered "Health Foods" they are typically two to three times as much as good quality bread or name brand pasta here. I'll definitely stick to rice though, cheap and easy to make, I can't go wrong with it.

 

I'm sorry to hear to of your own trouble with gluten, I have a friend who not only can't tolerate it, it sends her into periodic seizures. I can't say any of my reactions come close to yours or her reactions...

 

Thankya again for the advice and ideas! I really appreciate it!

[ChessieCat]

I found out recently about rice storage.

 

I rinse left over rice in cold water and only store one day's portion in the fridge for the next day.  I freeze the remainder for up to 3 months.

 

Quote

---

Safe cooling of cooked rice

Very few people realise that improperly stored cooked rice can be a cause of food poisoning.

Uncooked rice often contains the bacteria Bacillus cereus. These bacteria can form protective spores that survive the cooking process and if the rice is cooled slowly (and left between 5 °C and 60 °C for a long time), these bacteria spores can germinate, grow and produce a toxin (poison) that causes vomiting.