Albert: preparing to get off Paxil / paroxetine for good

[LostInCanada]

@Albert @SwedishDespair I think it is very important to understand this drug. Check this link under Mechanism of Action :

https://www.psychdb.com/meds/antidepressants/ssri/paroxetine

 

Also I may have mentioned, paroxetine self metabolizes, so as you reduce it speeds up and makes your body think you are taking less than you are which leads to greater withdrawal. So it is very important to go even slower, holding longer, if you are showing symptoms that aren't bearable or resolving.

There are success stories getting off paroxetine. Two that come to mind are brass monkey and recently Rachelina, who took a long time but did it! I try to view ANY reduction as a huge win. 

[LostInCanada]

@Albert what scale did you get? I know having a good one made a difference for me. Even when I eventually change to liquid, I will be measuring the dry pill weight for accuracy. 

The last drop I did was very smooth but it was only 0.5%. I am holding at present because we just found out our daughter has colon cancer. Surgery on the 29th so trying to be stable despite the stress. Praying for success and a great recovery.

[Albert]

On 11/20/2023 at 11:29 AM, LostInCanada said:

@Albert what scale did you get? I know having a good one made a difference for me. Even when I eventually change to liquid, I will be measuring the dry pill weight for accuracy. 

The last drop I did was very smooth but it was only 0.5%. I am holding at present because we just found out our daughter has colon cancer. Surgery on the 29th so trying to be stable despite the stress. Praying for success and a great recovery.

O, No, we will definitely keep you in our thoughts and prayers!!!  Did they catch it early?   

>I have been doing a 1% drop every month.  I might have to slow it down just a wee bit as I have been noticing some prickling starting.  That and also some periodic muscle twitching.   I have have some moderate insomnia that I have really never been able to completely get rid of, but it will increase as symptoms start to develop.   

 

This is the scale I bought.  It was a little expensive $559, but it is FAR more accurate than the gemini. 

Hanchen Electronic Analytical Balance, 0.1mg 220g Precise Digital Scale for Lab Pharmacy Chemical Plant Jewelry Store 220g/0.0001g

[SwedishDespair]

On 11/20/2023 at 1:57 PM, Albert said:

So you settled back in at 30mg per day?  Sounds like you have really been through it.  I assume that when you had symptoms spike you tried to hold and wait it out.  I am currently still numbed as I taper.  I am down to 17.2 mg Paroxetine.  I am still having symptoms, but I am functioning and trying to deal with them as they rotate through my body.  I am having all of those same symptoms that you have explained. Have you decided to stop attempting to taper?  Or are you going to try to just go even slower?  How slow were you going?  Very sorry to hear that you had so much trouble.  

 

It was almost 10 years ago I was tapering, I used 10% each step. Initially I tapered each 6-8 weeks. But towards the end I needed even more time to level off.

No, I won't try taper anymore. Many reasons.

[Albert]

3 hours ago, SwedishDespair said:

It was almost 10 years ago I was tapering, I used 10% each step. Initially I tapered each 6-8 weeks. But towards the end I needed even more time to level off.

No, I won't try taper anymore. Many reasons.

Do you feel like you were able to recover from the taper?   Over time, has everything went back to pre-taper.  I know that there are side effects to the medication, but do you feel like you were able to heal back to pre-taper condition?   I sometimes wonder if I were to quit tapering, would I be able to settle back in where I was?   As slow as I am tapering, I am still dealing with some difficult symptoms at times.  I am still able to function, but I still deal with weakness, vision, prickling, twitching, insomnia, and everything else. How are you doing now?   I was once at 40mg and now I am currently at 17.2.  I wonder, if I go slow enough if I would be able to get to 10mg and then just stay there.  Maybe the side effects would be more manageable and I could just stay at 10mg.   That is my short term goal.    

[LostInCanada]

12 hours ago, Albert said:

we will definitely keep you in our thoughts and prayers!!!  Did they catch it early? 

Yes, it hasn't metastasized thankfully. She is in England and we are in Canada so it makes it that much more difficult. Appreciate the prayers. Thanks.

[LostInCanada]

Nice scale. This is the one I bought

https://cambridgeenviro.com/products/a-d-ej-54d2-dual-range-22g-x-0-0002g-54g-x-0-001g-compact-balance

Definitely made a difference for me to be more accurate.

[Albert]

Does the Prozac help with Paxil WD?  Seems like I am seeing that sometimes people have better luck tapering the Paxil if they add Prozac?  Does there seem to be something with that ?  

 

[LostInCanada]

@Albert I do not believe it does. One of the moderators said prozac was his biggest regret. That is go2zero. Also another moderator Errell did the switch and it has been very bad for her. 

We know the dragon we are slaying, we know how our body reacts. Adding or switching a drug is just adding more symptoms, reactions and another long taper. The site mentions numerous times is an absolute last resort. 

I tried prozac twice only to have extra symptoms like face twitching added on to the withdrawal. This is a long road with some discomfort. Unfortunately no easy way around it. Slow and steady with acceptance has helped me. 

[Albert]

21 hours ago, LostInCanada said:

@Albert I do not believe it does. One of the moderators said prozac was his biggest regret. That is go2zero. Also another moderator Errell did the switch and it has been very bad for her. 

We know the dragon we are slaying, we know how our body reacts. Adding or switching a drug is just adding more symptoms, reactions and another long taper. The site mentions numerous times is an absolute last resort. 

I tried prozac twice only to have extra symptoms like face twitching added on to the withdrawal. This is a long road with some discomfort. Unfortunately no easy way around it. Slow and steady with acceptance has helped me. 

Yea, that is what I was thinking.  So have you settled in at .5% drop per month?  I may have to adapt that.  I am trying 1% now and I am getting more symptoms.  I just hate for it to take to long.  But I have noticed that if you go to fast, it winds up backfiring and it seems like many have to re-instate or up dose.  Thanks

[LostInCanada]

@Albert I am planning on doing .5% every week. Just waiting for my daughter's surgery tomorrow and her stability before I do anything. Check out Cheeky. They are doing daily microtapers. It is working well for her despite the traditional way causing symptoms.

[Albert]

Is there such thing as permanent damage from the medication?  I sure hope not.  Insomnia and the vision change is something I have never really been able to recover from.   The insomnia has improved over time, but it feels like it improved by about 80 percent from my initial chronic event, but then stayed there and has really never resolved.  Close up vision has never really improved.  It has been a mess since day one and never improved.  I never ever had to wear glasses.  Now, I can't go anywhere without them.  Is this something that can possibly improve. 

[Albert]

On 11/28/2023 at 10:53 AM, LostInCanada said:

@Albert I am planning on doing .5% every week. Just waiting for my daughter's surgery tomorrow and her stability before I do anything. Check out Cheeky. They are doing daily microtapers. It is working well for her despite the traditional way causing symptoms.

How was the surgery?  Have you been doing your .5 % drops.  I am check out Cheeky

[LostInCanada]

My daughter's surgery went well. Still waiting on the full pathology report. I did a small drop a week ago. I really hope as I become more stable I will do larger drops. But this is where I am now. No issues with the latest drop. My sleep is still horrible and I have vision issues as well, mostly after images, blurred vision etc. As far as permanent damage, it is possible. Some of these drugs affect the liver and heart but all we can do is hope to minimize damage by getting off them. 

[Albert]

On 12/11/2023 at 10:31 PM, LostInCanada said:

My daughter's surgery went well. Still waiting on the full pathology report. I did a small drop a week ago. I really hope as I become more stable I will do larger drops. But this is where I am now. No issues with the latest drop. My sleep is still horrible and I have vision issues as well, mostly after images, blurred vision etc. As far as permanent damage, it is possible. Some of these drugs affect the liver and heart but all we can do is hope to minimize damage by getting off them. 

Very true!!  Glad the surgery went well.  I will try another 1 percent drop at the end of the month.  I should be good to go by then.  I would love to get off quicker, but I have to stay functional as I am the main source of income for the family.    If I do have permanent damage, it would be insomnia and close up blurry vision.  While I was balancing out for a year, I was able to see 90 percent improvement in most of the symptoms, but these two have seemed to stayed.   I can get broken sleep from about 10:00 PM to 5:00 AM , but anything other than that ( including naps ) are out of the question.   I do drink coffee in the AM and that probably does not help things.    

[LostInCanada]

@Albert Being able to function is the key. I get broken sleep from 10pm- 7pm. I am usually up every 90 -2hours. Sometimes I can fall back to sleep quickly. Other times not. The other night I got 4 hours in a row. 🎉 I am hopeful my vision will get better once I am completely off.  The surgeon called my daughter today and no cancer in the lymph nodes, etc. It has all been contained. Super good news. 👍

[wantrelief]

2 hours ago, LostInCanada said:

The surgeon called my daughter today and no cancer in the lymph nodes, etc. It has all been contained. Super good news

This is wonderful news and must be such a huge relief off of your mind! 

[Soup]

@LostInCanada so glad to hear about your daughter what a relief 

[Albert]

On 12/13/2023 at 1:01 PM, LostInCanada said:

@Albert Being able to function is the key. I get broken sleep from 10pm- 7pm. I am usually up every 90 -2hours. Sometimes I can fall back to sleep quickly. Other times not. The other night I got 4 hours in a row. 🎉 I am hopeful my vision will get better once I am completely off.  The surgeon called my daughter today and no cancer in the lymph nodes, etc. It has all been contained. Super good news. 👍

Wow !!!   That is GREAT news about your daughter.  I can only imagine the feeling of getting that news !!!  

[Albert]

Have a few questions.  Just finished up with my 6 month Dr appointment and have a decision to make.  1st - I am deficient in vitamin D3.  Dr has been watching this for a couple of years and it has fallen down below the acceptable level.  Could this be connected to taking Paroxetine?  I have not been consistent with my vitamin D tablet.  If I start, I think I can get it up, but just wondering if this could be causing symptoms and if this could be result of the Paroxetine.  

2nd- My cholesterol level has reached 263 and the Dr is highly suggesting a low dose statin to correct this.  Years ago I was on it and it kept my cholesterol levels down in check, but I ditched it a few years ago and now it is creeping back up on me.  He is recommending this because my Dad has really struggled with coronary artery disease for his entire life and he is trying to keep me from following in that same path.   Having said this, I have kind of fallen off of the wagon with my diet and exercise and I am going to try to turn this around.   Is it ok to take this low dose 10mg statin while I am on Paroxetine?  Or should I refrain from this medication and try something else?  Thanks 

[getofflex]

Hello Albert.  I will just give you my non medical layman's opinion.  If it were me, I would attempt to change my diet for a few months before going on a statin drug.  Of course, the choice is yours.  However, statin drugs do have side effects, some of them being neurological.  And, any new drug can have unpredictable effects on a nervous system that is adjusting to tapering of a psych drug, such as yours.  Here are some links to help you decide: 

 

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/high-blood-cholesterol/in-depth/statin-side-effects/art-20046013 

 

You can put your drugs in this drug interaction checker to see if there are any interactions: 

 

https://www.drugs.com/drug_interactions.html

 

As far as the vitamin D, it can cause nervous system activation (insomnia, agitation, etc).  I don't take it for that reason. 

 

Here is our topic on vitamin D.  

 

Vitamin D

 

For future simple questions, here is a link on how to search our site:  

 

How to Do a Site Search

 

I commend you for doing a very slow and cautious taper, and holding when necessary.  You are doing things the right way. 

Edited December 20, 2023 by getofflex

[LostInCanada]

Hi @Albert

Apparently SSRIs do not deplete vitamin D. Living in Canada it is a vitamin supplement that is a must. I was taking it before I went cold turkey and just stayed on it. The liquid gels are the best form to take. Have you taken it recently with no side effects such as activation? If you decide to take it start small and keep a daily journal. 

My husband is facing the same situation as you with cholesterol. I know it affects the liver as does paxil, causes joint pain, increases gastro issues, so I agree with getofflex...try upping exercise, modifying diet and see where that goes first. High cholesterol is serious and some people are genetically predisposed so in the end you may have to take a statin but it is worth exhausting other possibilities in my opinion. Also always do the drug checker for interactions. 👍

[Albert]

Thank you so much for the advice.  I will refer to drug checker to see if there is anything there that would indicate it is problematic.    

[Albert]

20 hours ago, LostInCanada said:

Hi @Albert

Apparently SSRIs do not deplete vitamin D. Living in Canada it is a vitamin supplement that is a must. I was taking it before I went cold turkey and just stayed on it. The liquid gels are the best form to take. Have you taken it recently with no side effects such as activation? If you decide to take it start small and keep a daily journal. 

My husband is facing the same situation as you with cholesterol. I know it affects the liver as does paxil, causes joint pain, increases gastro issues, so I agree with getofflex...try upping exercise, modifying diet and see where that goes first. High cholesterol is serious and some people are genetically predisposed so in the end you may have to take a statin but it is worth exhausting other possibilities in my opinion. Also always do the drug checker for interactions. 👍

Can you get side effects from taking vitamin D?  What do you mean by " activation" 

[LostInCanada]

3 hours ago, Albert said:

What do you mean by " activation" 

It's the same with any new vitamin or supplement. It is a day time vitamin so it needs to be taken in the morning when waking. It can interfere with sleep though it has never affected me that way. Click on the Vit D link that getofflex put in her post for more info. It is an important vitamin.

[Albert]

OK, I just made another cut of 1%.   Does it mean anything when you fell really good / normal for 4-5 days after a drop?  Is that a good sign?  It is becoming a trend that when I make that drop I feel really good.  Now after 4-5 days, the WD will settle back in and then slowly settle over the course of the next 4-6 weeks.  

[LostInCanada]

@Albert I don't know what it means but that might be a good pattern to have. 👍 

[Albert]

That is what I was hoping !!!   However, after only a 1% drop, I can still feel the symptoms kick in. 

[LostInCanada]

1 hour ago, Albert said:

I can still feel the symptoms kick in.

What are you experiencing? Sometimes it seems that the drops put me into waves that I then think are symptoms. It is so intertwined, isn't it? Despite it all, we soldier on with courage. 👍🙏

[Albert]

On 1/11/2024 at 10:24 AM, LostInCanada said:

What are you experiencing? Sometimes it seems that the drops put me into waves that I then think are symptoms. It is so intertwined, isn't it? Despite it all, we soldier on with courage. 👍🙏

I guess it could just be a waive.  I am getting super super tight hamstrings and shoulders, cold feet, generalized weakness, short lived bouts of head pressure and some light muscle twitching.  Do you think this is just wave, or do you think it is a flare in WD symptoms from the drop?  What do you usually do with the muscle stiffness. 

 

[littlebird]

3 minutes ago, Albert said:

What do you usually do with the muscle stiffness. 

Do you have access to a bathtub or hottub? When I get really tense, there's something about resting in warm water that brings relaxation that a hot shower can't imitate. 

[LostInCanada]

3 hours ago, Albert said:

What do you usually do with the muscle stiffness. 

I can't remember if you take magnesium bisglycinate? That can help on a regular basis. 

I also learned in a CBT course I took, to practice tensing muscle groups and then learning how to relax them. Kind of the way your body has to relax when  floating in water. Deep breathing exercises also might help.

Also as little bird mentioned, a hot bath and even putting Epsom salts in it.

 

When I am in a wave, my WD symptoms heighten. Hopefully it will pass soon. 

[Albert]

On 1/15/2024 at 5:50 PM, littlebird said:

Do you have access to a bathtub or hottub? When I get really tense, there's something about resting in warm water that brings relaxation that a hot shower can't imitate. 

Yes, we do have a hot tub and I think we have some Epsom salts.  I am typically not a bathtub guy, but I will try anything for some relief.  !!!  Thanks for the tip.  This will be on the agenda this evening.  

[Albert]

On 1/15/2024 at 8:01 PM, LostInCanada said:

I can't remember if you take magnesium bisglycinate? That can help on a regular basis. 

I also learned in a CBT course I took, to practice tensing muscle groups and then learning how to relax them. Kind of the way your body has to relax when  floating in water. Deep breathing exercises also might help.

Also as little bird mentioned, a hot bath and even putting Epsom salts in it.

 

When I am in a wave, my WD symptoms heighten. Hopefully it will pass soon. 

I am currently not on a magnesium regimen.  However, I am ordering that on Amazon right now. !!!   Yes, hopefully this will resolve soon.  Last night I had really bad insomnia and racing mind.  I took some time and practiced some deep breathing exercises and that did help some for sure.  I really hope this will pass soon. I only did a 1% drop and it is like clock work, I feel really great for a little over a week and then when week 2 gets here I get hit with WD.   Itching, prickling, ice cold feet, muscle tension, insomnia,  balance, eye pain!!  For some reason my cognitive function has not declined like usual, that is good at least!!!  I am trying my best to find something good when I am in WD.  I have been taking vitamin B3 as well as Fish oil in the evenings.  I will add the magnesium.  Thanks again for the support.    

[LostInCanada]

3 hours ago, Albert said:

been taking vitamin B3 as well as Fish oil in the evenings

B3 can cause issues like you have described such as prickling. If you meant D3, it must be taken in the early morning. Any B vitamins should be as well. Magnesium bisglycinate is good at night. Epsom salts are really magnesium and great for the muscles. Do you get enough calcium through the day? It should not be taken with vitamin D or magnesium (at least 2 hours apart) but it is necessary for the metabolism of magnesium.

 

3 hours ago, Albert said:

I am trying my best to find something good when I am in WD. 

It doesn't have to be major. I think about the simple things easily overlooked: food in the fridge, a roof over my head, heat in the winter, a soft bed, the sky, my husband, etc. I know it can always be worse, thankful it isn't. 

You are doing amazing supporting your family, going to work every day. Don't underestimate all you are accomplishing. 

[Albert]

3 hours ago, LostInCanada said:

B3 can cause issues like you have described such as prickling. If you meant D3, it must be taken in the early morning. Any B vitamins should be as well. Magnesium bisglycinate is good at night. Epsom salts are really magnesium and great for the muscles. Do you get enough calcium through the day? It should not be taken with vitamin D or magnesium (at least 2 hours apart) but it is necessary for the metabolism of magnesium.

 

It doesn't have to be major. I think about the simple things easily overlooked: food in the fridge, a roof over my head, heat in the winter, a soft bed, the sky, my husband, etc. I know it can always be worse, thankful it isn't. 

You are doing amazing supporting your family, going to work every day. Don't underestimate all you are accomplishing. 

Sorry, I meant vitamin D3, I was going to start vitamin B12 ( is that OK ), I will make sure to take my magnesium in the evening.  Maybe that will help all of the prickling and twitching.  Thanks for the support, today I am managing.  Trying to keep myself busy.  Celebrating that I do not have severe brain fog.  Sure is nice to be able to navigate through the day w/out the brain fog.  Hopefully it will fade over the weekend considering it was only a 1% drop.  I was going to consider dropping at 4 weeks, but may consider 6ish to get just a little stronger and give myself a break. THX for all you are doing for all of us !!!  It is so nice to have a place to go to with this.