Malbec37: tapering off mirtazapine / Remeron and hit major WD

[Malbec37]

Hey @sunnysideup69Nice to hear from you! Yes I'm ok mostly although pretty rocky...I'm down to 11mg from 15mg and holding now until Jan. I'm mostly thought he worst of the WD from the drop from 12 to 11 but I still have problems...last night I barely slept a wink again and feel wavey today although not so bad that I cannot do my normal life. I tried again to get onto the prescribed liquid back in October (3rd attempt!) and just couldn't handle it so went back onto tablets...it's not as precise but seems to be what my body prefers.

 

So all in all doing ok, taking one step at a time and trying to stay positive!

 

How about you?

[methuselah]

Hey Malbec!  
 

Have you thought about getting your doses made up at a compounding pharmacy.  I tapered off of remeron in the past (although I switched to something else) and the compounding pharmacy made me a combo of  10, 5, and 1 mg pills for my taper.  I was at 30mg dose for a while, dropped to 15mg and the very day after the drop I felt some of the darkest depression I’d ever had the misfortune of knowing . Mirtazipine is no joke as you know.

 

My background if u interested.  I came off Valium via a 9 month taper in April 2020, which was rather unpleasant.  5 days ago Switched from liquid to pill form Prozac as I seemed to have a reaction to the liquid. I don’t think it ever really agreed with me.  Straight switch from 12mg liquid to 10mg capsule.  It’s not been a lot of fun.  Now I’m trying to stabilize on brand name Prozac.  Hoping to stabilize at 10 mg for several months then taper with Gemini scale.  May try compounding pharmacy if I struggle with the measurements. I’ve been on some version of this **** since 1997.  At this point, and for a long time now, I feel like I’m on the drugs not to withdraw from the drugs.  

 

Ps - happy belated 40th birthday my friend.  All the best.  

[Malbec37]

@methuselahthanks for your response. I don't think compounding pharmacies are really a thing here in the UK as far as I'm aware? At the moment I'm cutting and measuring tablets using the Gemini scale...I've tried to use liquids before but my body also didn't accept this so went back to tablets. I have terrible problems with sleep and lack of it...it's the only troublesome symptom I have, the rest are a breeze but my insomnia is so bad so much of the time that I'm really struggling with my mental health and to stay on top of my life. I do occasionally use sleeping aides like zopiclone and clonazepam (klonipin)...I know lots of people say to not use them but I have to as otherwise I would be completely unable to cope...at least they help me get a little rest. And I take them carefully.

 

You're right mirt is no joke....very tired of it all really but have to keep moving forwards 

 

Awful trying to stop taking these toxic drugs 

 

Thanks for the 40th birthday wishes 

[Jools44]

On 9/22/2021 at 10:50 AM, Malbec37 said:

Hi everyone

 

Here is my update on progress with tapering mirtazapine:

 

I am now 3 weeks into my latest reduction from 13 to 12mg using the cutting and measuring method. It has been a rocky road with the main symptom being this pesky mirtazapine insomnia which is pretty relentless but I have been finding that I am still able to function on surprisingly little sleep and I keep finding a way to get through my days....things have picked up mood wise recently and last night I had an uninterrupted 7 hours sleep which was wonderful!

 

The other issue I have is IBS issues which could also be affecting my sleep...I am eating well, low histamine diet, using DAO supplements when eating higher histamine foods occasionally or having the odd beer (we do need to have some enjoyment in our lives after all), also using a probiotic....hoping this IBS will clear up in time 

 

I also continue to have weekly counselling which helps a lot and then I am also having a few sessions with a Wellness coach who specialises in supporting people off AD's and this is really useful.

 

I am going on holiday next to see my parents in France and I am going to try and switch again to the prescribed liquid mirtazapine and see if I can settle on this.

 

So there we go....keeping moving forward step by step and doing all I can to not let this process drag me down or ruin my quality of life 

 

Malbec x 

@Malbec37 can I ask if you find the DAO effective? I've come to realise that histamine is making my symptoms flare so planning on a low histamine diet but just wondering if i could use DAO for the odd occasion where I can't? TIA

[Malbec37]

@Jools44Yes I think histamine can certainly cause havoc for symptoms and a low histamine diet is really important for many people coming off mirtazapine...I've been eating low histamine for more than 12 months and you soon get used to it. And yes I take DAO when I'm eating any higher histamine foods but actually recently I've started taking DAO twice a day before lunch and evening meal every day and my symptoms have improved a lot and feeling much more stable and sleeping better...now it could be a coincidence as I reduced 6 weeks ago and would expect to feel stable by now so I am going to continue taking them everyday then with my next reduction from 11 to 10mg I'll take DAO throughout and see if it helps the WD process.

 

Feel free to ask any further questions

 

Malbec

[Jools44]

6 hours ago, Malbec37 said:

@Jools44Yes I think histamine can certainly cause havoc for symptoms and a low histamine diet is really important for many people coming off mirtazapine...I've been eating low histamine for more than 12 months and you soon get used to it. And yes I take DAO when I'm eating any higher histamine foods but actually recently I've started taking DAO twice a day before lunch and evening meal every day and my symptoms have improved a lot and feeling much more stable and sleeping better...now it could be a coincidence as I reduced 6 weeks ago and would expect to feel stable by now so I am going to continue taking them everyday then with my next reduction from 11 to 10mg I'll take DAO throughout and see if it helps the WD process.

 

Feel free to ask any further questions

 

Malbec

@Malbec37thanks very much for your answer. What type of symptoms do you suffer with, with regards to histamine intolerance? I always associated it with allergy/itching and as I didn't develop any typical symptoms during my withdrawal I didn't even consider histamine being an issue. It's only with the reinstatement and subsequent (too large) dose drop that I've really been feeling intense withdrawals and am wondering if histamine has become an issue now. 

[Malbec37]

Hi @Jools44

 

I'll tell you what happened to me...I have been on mirtazapine 8 years or so...I came down from 30 to 15 fairly easily then I stayed at 15 for 12 months as life was too stressful and also I'd suffered very bad WD when I dropped from 15 to 11.25mg so, once stable again on 15, decided to hold for a long while....during that time I was mostly stable apart from when I somewhat stupidly had a one off heavy alcohol session and then my head just kind of exploded and I suffered the most intense insomnia that I have ever had alongside very blocked sinuses and anxiety...it lasted for about 6 weeks and I couldn't understand why I was suffering so badly as I was still on 15mg and holding - I couldn't work it out until someone said that I might have set off a 'histamine bomb' in my sensitive system by consuming so much alcohol (alcohol is very very high in histamine and sugar)...so I started to eat low histamine and the sleep improved within about a week and stayed better. So I realised that, whilst I didn't fully understand the histamine thing (not sure anyone really does because we cannot see inside our bodies) it seemed I was sensitive to histamine and needed to keep the levels down in my body

 

So in answer to your question the main symptoms of withdrawal for me have always been incredibly acute insomnia, anxiety, tinnitus and nausea....

 

I looked up histamine intolerance symptoms and one of them is related to sleep...excess histamine effects the sleep/wake cycle in a bad way 

 

So. like I say, I don't really understand it but I know that I am currently sensitive to too higher levels of histamine so I keep the levels down...it doesn't stop me suffering withdrawals from this horrid drug but that's just part of the process but I know it helps me and is part of the puzzle!

[Jools44]

17 hours ago, Malbec37 said:

Hi @Jools44

 

I'll tell you what happened to me...I have been on mirtazapine 8 years or so...I came down from 30 to 15 fairly easily then I stayed at 15 for 12 months as life was too stressful and also I'd suffered very bad WD when I dropped from 15 to 11.25mg so, once stable again on 15, decided to hold for a long while....during that time I was mostly stable apart from when I somewhat stupidly had a one off heavy alcohol session and then my head just kind of exploded and I suffered the most intense insomnia that I have ever had alongside very blocked sinuses and anxiety...it lasted for about 6 weeks and I couldn't understand why I was suffering so badly as I was still on 15mg and holding - I couldn't work it out until someone said that I might have set off a 'histamine bomb' in my sensitive system by consuming so much alcohol (alcohol is very very high in histamine and sugar)...so I started to eat low histamine and the sleep improved within about a week and stayed better. So I realised that, whilst I didn't fully understand the histamine thing (not sure anyone really does because we cannot see inside our bodies) it seemed I was sensitive to histamine and needed to keep the levels down in my body

 

So in answer to your question the main symptoms of withdrawal for me have always been incredibly acute insomnia, anxiety, tinnitus and nausea....

 

I looked up histamine intolerance symptoms and one of them is related to sleep...excess histamine effects the sleep/wake cycle in a bad way 

 

So. like I say, I don't really understand it but I know that I am currently sensitive to too higher levels of histamine so I keep the levels down...it doesn't stop me suffering withdrawals from this horrid drug but that's just part of the process but I know it helps me and is part of the puzzle!

@Malbec37thanks for that and it all sounds very familiar. I also suffer with insomnia, tinnitus and hyperacusis during the waves. I'm not a heavy drinker but I've had the odd weekend when I've had some drinks only to find everything heading south in the following weeks. I also hasn't put two and two together because during the whole of last year whilst I was slowly withdrawing I didn't seem to have any issues, but with the botched reinstatement something has changed in that regard.

There's no end to the misery this drugs inflicts on withdrawal is there?!!! 

[Malbec37]

@Jools44Yes unfortunately there is a lot of suffering involved with this drug and trying to remove it from our lives. I'm sorry that things have got more complicated with the reinstatement then finding that you are no longer able to come off the drug like before...unfortunately the medical profession has very little they can offer us when it comes to WD - they don't understand it at all IMO and often they don't even acknowledge it so it's down to us to find a way to cope with the waves and ultimately how to get off...it's been a very long and demanding journey for me so far but I am determined and I will never give up, however hard it may be 

 

Things that work for me are CBD oil to deal with anxiety and especially anxiety from not sleeping well....also currently I'm taking L thianine which seems to be helping with sleep. We're all very different at the end of the day and one person's body will not tolerate something the same as another 

 

Good luck on the journey...I'm holding now until Feb before I reduce again 

[Malbec37]

Quick update in case anyone is still watching my thread!

 

I've been on 11mg now for quite some time and overall feeling very stable and steady which is a wonderful feeling. I'm still cutting and measuring doses but I don't think this will change anytime soon as I cannot tolerate the liquids and not trying again...also looking into the possibility of using tapering strips perhaps for the end of my journey. 

 

My sleep is much better and I feel more rested and energised in the day

 

I will drop again in Feb...I am now taking DAO tablets twice a day and also L thianine at night which seems to aide sleep 

[marie123]

Keep going Malbec. It sounds like you're doing fine. Marie.

[sunnysideup69]

Hey @Malbec37,

Thanks so much for your post on my thread, wow it's March already! How time flies! Thanks for asking after me, I'm not tapering and am feeling pretty normal. Haven't suffered a wave in ages now.

Am so glad you are feeling strong and stable now, you're doing great! I'm thinking about asking for Venlafaxine liquid when beginning to taper, but it seems a bit hit and miss as to who can tolerate it.

Hope your year is going well so far,

Love,

Sunny xx

[Malbec37]

It's been a LONG time since I posted on here so for anyone still looking I'll give a little update. And I'll also update my signature lol

 

I managed to taper from 15 to 9mg over 9 months but it was very very hard going (mostly chronic insomnia and all the related difficult issues this brings) and in the end I crashed in April and had a breakdown and fell apart completely...had horrible debilitating anxiety and depression and couldn't cope at all so I made the decision to reinstate back to 15mg again...I know many will say this was a very bad ideated a waste of all that hard work but I was desperate and not wanting to cut and measure any more doses and at least the 15mg would be just the tablet to take and a consistent dose....anyway that's what I did and it took me 8 difficult weeks to stabilise but I did, then I had a pretty good summer but then my insomnia and anxiety started to reemerge towards the end of summer (still holding at 15mg) but I was going through some major life stress such as leaving my job, a new living situation, a friend getting very unwell and also going on a family holiday (very triggering)...the result was that I was in a wave for a lot of the time and it was tough but in the last 2 weeks I have stabilised again and started to feel much stronger 

 

So I'm still stuck on 15mg and have no idea if and how to get off mirtazapine lol!....thing is I don't even feel bad on it really and side effects are negligible...I'm giving serious thought to whether I may just have to stay on it as I can't go through another long and painful slow taper as I need to move on in my life and build my career, relationships etc which are just not possible when going through this ordeal...and who knows I could come off just to find myself having an episode of anxiety and depression and back on meds!

 

For now I am happy to have halved my dose and going to get really stable here and just enjoy my life for a while.

 

Thanks for listening 

[Ripley]

Hi @Malbec37

 

I hope you continue to feel good and stable at this dose. I totally hear you about wanting to move on with your life and finding it difficult when you're tapering. It sounds like you're doing the right thing in just holding and getting on with other things. Sometimes we have to take a break. When you're feeling ready, you can always come back to this and try again -  hopefully from a more stable and less battle-weary position. 

[Malbec37]

@Altostrata I need some advice urgently. I’ve reinstated my mirtazapine over 6 months ago to 15mg and I’m still struggling with very bad waves and finding life incredibly hard. I keep thinking about increasing up to 22.5 or 30mg as this dose is supposed to be more effective…I want to stay at 15mg but feel so bad but perhaps I just need more time for my CNS to recover from previous changes? Any thoughts very welcome 

[jozeff]

Dear @Malbec37

 

I'm sorry You are struggling so much. I know exactly how you feel we have All been there in Some way. I really think you should not updose after 6 months  taking the same dose each day.

 

I've been having the same feelings as you many times and people at sad always advised me to hold when I felt I needed to updose. I'm glad I did.

 

Updosing from 15 mg now might give you a boost for a while but  almost certain you will feel the same at 20 mg in a couple of months. It is very tempting I know and its extremely hard not to go up in dose just for quick relief. You might even make things worse, who knows. The fact is that you will have even more taper to do when going up in dose.

 

I know it is very discouraging to just hold but I really think you will be better of in the long run.

 

After 2 decades of taking this sh.. I'm convinced these meds are designed to make you suffer when you try to quit.

 

You have come so far. I mean 6 months is quite an accomplishment.  Whatever you decide you will have to stabilize again some day.

 

This is just my personal opinion. I'm no medic and just try to help.

 

I wish you all the strength you need! 🙏

 

Cheers

 

Jozeff

 

[Jools44]

@Malbec37 I was still suffering nasty waves 6 months after reinstatement but it does gradually get better. I'm 12months post reinstatement at a higher dose and things have definitely improved, so give it time. In my experience and from what I understand of these drugs, if your brain is still recovering then increasing the dose likely won't help but obviously that's ultimately your decision.

Hope you get some relief soon. 

[Altostrata]

I have no idea if increasing mirtazapine will make you feel better. Have you had any alcohol, treatment with antibiotics, covid infection, or something else that might have shaken your system?

 

Do your symptoms follow any daily pattern?  Please keep daily notes of times of day you take your drugs, their dosages, and your symptoms throughout the day. Post 24 hours of notes at a time in this topic, in a simple list format with time of day on the left and notation (symptom or drug and dosage) on the right.

[Malbec37]

@Altostrata@Jools44@jozeff@Gridley

 

I really need some help and support guys 

 

Previously I had reinstated to 15mg and had held there for around 8 months but I was hugely struggling when life stress hit me in Sept/Oct and become really unwell with depression and anxiety...life was such a struggle and in the end I listened to the doctor who told me to go back to 30mg where I had been stable for so long in the past.,,I was DESPERATE and still holding down a job etc... Initially it worked well and I was considerably better but the past week or so I've been plunged back into a wave and really struggling with insomnia, anxiety, really activated brain - I just feel really terrible and I'm scared of having gone back up and made my situation even worse than if I'd stayed on 15mg...I've made so many changes now with the dosage up and down and don't know what to do

 

I've been on 30mg for 5 weeks now and things are really pretty awful at the moment 

 

Any experts got any advice please? Thanks so much 

[Altostrata]

Sorry, without the daily symptom pattern notes requested earlier, we cannot tell what's going on.