Ismo Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 Hello everybody. I'm from Finland. My health problems started 2015 when I tried to change my diet to vegan even I had build my physics with gym and eating much of meat half of my life and I had big muscles. This suddenly diet changing caused problems. My nervous system didn't recover anymore and I start to lost muscles and power very fast. I stop gym but half year later I started it again but still trying to eat vegan diet and that led me to bad problems. I got sinus problems and cat allegy and I had two cats. All this led me problems caused by medicines. First some medicine caused panic attack when I was sleeping and then I got anxious and doctor gave me benzos. They caused problems and when I tried to get off them but I made some mistakes because I didn't understand how it should to do and doctors also didn't understand. I started to use mirtazapine (same than remeron) for sleeping when tapering benzos and it caused even bigger problem and when I tried to get off mirtazapine the situation went so bad that I started to SSRI named Escitalopram (same than Cipralex or Lexapro) because pressure by the doctor and my symptoms was also so bad. Doctors didn't believe withdrawal symptoms by mirtazapine. When I reducing the mirtazapine dose my digestive system also stop working properly and I think that also made me feel so horrible. It took time to find how I should eat. When I tried to reduce my Escitalopram dose I failed few times. Then I started to looking some ways to make systems of my body working better that reducing the medicine could working and one after another I found some things that worked for me. Finally the reducing the dose start to working. I also found a good method from one Facebook group. The problem was that escitalopram is not water soluble. I developed that method a little better. In this video I show how I made that: How I tapering Escitalopram I tapered the dose about one year from 15 milligrams to 5,73 milligrams. Then I started suspect that the medicine itself make the tapering harder. That is a little hard to explain. I decided to jump to zero from that dose and I knew it's huge jump. With all my systems that I had found my symptoms have stay tolerable. I mean food system and some supplements. I kind of manipulate my nervous system with them that the symptoms stay away or not completely away but they stay much easier. I took my last dose in 28 th september 2019. It was over 4 months ago. Now I feel this is gonna take very long time to heal. I can't sport much and I can't even use computers too much. I need even limit reading books or listening audio books because capacity of my brain is so low. So I need allways consider where to I want to use my limited capacity. If I have used too much computer and smart phone it can took few days to recover from that. Sometimes I also feel anxious and depressed. My nervous system is also extreme sensitive to many things like herbal spices, vitamins, many foods and so on. My food system is very very limited and exact. I have to eat certain foods exactly in certain ratio. If they are not in that same ratio I get symptoms. All those my systems protect me that my situation stay tolerable. I also need to take certain supplements at a certain time and just the certain dose or I get symptoms. Now I'm just waiting how long this is gonna take and when all this is going to get better or is the worst yet to come. I guess this is going to take at least year but probably longer to heal. So my problems started from very little but because my and doctors weak understanding the small problem grew very big problem. Every time I understood certaing things when it was already too late and the situation was got worst. Everything started 2015 and here's shortly how it went: Bad diet change --> health problems --> problems caused by medicines --> 5-6 months benzos --> about half year Mirtazapine for supporting sleep in benzo tapering (because I first tried to do it too fast) --> Mirtazapine caused more problems --> 3 years Escitalopram (including tapering) --> 1 year tapering from 15 mg to 5,73 mg and then cold turkey from that dose in september 2019. Link to comment
Moderator Emeritus Gridley Posted February 7, 2020 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted February 7, 2020 Welcome to SA, Ismo. You seem very aware of your situation and its causes and have taken some good approaches to dealing with it. Jumping from 5.73mg to zero, was as you said, a big jump and you are now dealing with withdrawal. Food and supplement sensitivities are very common in withdrawal, and it's good you're monitoring carefully what you consume. So that you have a better idea what you're experiencing here is some information on withdrawal and healing. What is withdrawal syndrome. Daily Checklist of Antidepressant Withdrawal Symptoms (PDF) Recovery is not linear. There will be ups and downs. The Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization When we take medications, the CNS (central nervous system) responds by making changes over the months and years we take the drug(s). When the medication is discontinued, the CNS has to undo all the changes it made. Rebuilding the neurotransmitter production and reactivating the receptor and transporter cells takes time -- during that rebuilding process symptoms occur. These explain it really well: Video: Healing From Antidepressants - Patterns of Recovery On 8/30/2011 at 2:28 PM, Rhiannon said: When we stop taking the drug, we have a brain that has designed itself so that it works in the presence of the drug; now it can't work properly without the drug because it's designed itself so that the drug is part of its chemistry and structure. It's like a plant that has grown on a trellis; you can't just yank out the trellis and expect the plant to be okay. When the drug is removed, the remodeling process has to take place in reverse. SO--it's not a matter of just getting the drug out of your system and moving on. If it were that simple, none of us would be here. It's a matter of, as I describe it, having to grow a new brain. I believe this growing-a-new-brain happens throughout the taper process if the taper is slow enough. (If it's too fast, then there's not a lot of time for actually rebalancing things, and basically the brain is just pedaling fast trying to keep us alive.) It also continues to happen, probably for longer than the symptoms actually last, throughout the time of recovery after we are completely off the drug, which is why recovery takes so long. We don't recommend a lot of supplements on SA, as many members report being sensitive to them due to our over-reactive nervous systems, but two supplements that we do recommend are magnesium (glycinate is a good form) and omega 3 (fish oil). Many people find these to be calming to the nervous system. Magnesium, nature's calcium channel blocker Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil) Add in one at a time and at a low dose in case you do experience problems. There is no way to predict how long healing will take. All we can say is that it will often be frustrating but that it will happen. This is your Introduction topic, where you can ask questions and connect with other members. WE're glad you found your way here. Gridley Introduction Lexapro 20 mg since 2004. Begin Brassmonkey Slide Taper Jan. 2017. End 2017 year 1 of taper at 9.25mg End 2018 year 2 of taper at 4.1mg End 2019 year 3 of taper at 1.0mg Oct. 30, 2020 Jump to zero from 0.025mg. Current dose: 0.000mg 3 year, 10 month taper is 100% complete. Ativan 1 mg to 1.875mg 1986-2020, two CT's and reinstatements Nov. 2020, 7-week Ativan-Valium crossover to 18.75mg Valium Feb. 2021, begin 10%/4 week taper of 18.75mg Valium End 2021 year 1 of Valium taper at 6mg End 2022 year 2 of Valium taper at 2.75mg End 2023 year 3 of Valium taper at 1mg Jan. 24, 2024: Hold at 1mg and shift to Imipramine taper. Taper is 95% complete. Imipramine 75 mg daily since 1986. Jan.-Sept. 2016 tapered to 14.4mg March 22, 2022: Begin 10%/4 week taper Aug. 5, 2022: hold at 9.5mg and shift to Valium taper Jan. 24, 2024: Resume Imipramine taper. Current dose as of Sept 25: 3.6mg Taper is 95% complete. Supplements: multiple, quercetin, omega-3, vitamins C, E and D3, magnesium glycinate, probiotic, zinc, melatonin .3mg, iron, serrapeptase, nattokinase, L-Glutamine, milk thistle, choline I am not a medical professional and this is not medical advice. It is information based on my own experience as well as that of other members who have survived these drugs. Link to comment
nipsu Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 I also took mirtazapine for sleeping and its very difficult to withdraw from. My doc didnt believe that i have withdrawal symptoms and said to me that my depression is getting worse and prescribed brintellix for depression. I ate 12 days brintellix before i found SA and realized that it is big mistake if i continue taking brintellix so i stopped taking it. Now i have reinstated to 2.7 mg mirtazapine but i also suffer from moderate cognitive dysfunction and early morning awakenings. I have to use mental capacity which i currently have sparingly and it means i have to avoid overloading it with irrelevant information. Like you i have also sensitivity for certain vitamins and other supplements and i try to eat healthy. Has your sleep got any better during withdrawal? Winter-Spring 2011 (12 week usage of Chantix for quitting smoking) April 2017 Lexapro 10 mg after 6 weeks, CT:ed due to increased anxiety, insomnia and depression April 2017 - November 2017 Wellbutrin XL 150 mg, CT:ed due serious allergic reaction January 2019 Imovane (zopiclone) for insomnia, CT:ed after 1 month of use March 2019 Mirtazapine 7.5 mg for insomnia, i tried to CT in October 2019 and tried fast taper December 2019 Withdrawal process started 10.01.2020 *Current dose 2.25 mg (27.02.2020) January 2020 Started 09.01.2019 Trintellix 10 mg for depression, CT:ed 22.01.2019 Withdrawal process started 22.01.2020 Supplements: Extended release melatonin 0.95mg (one week pause after three weeks of administration) Vitamin D 100 mikrograms every morning Magnesium 200 mg Link to comment
Ismo Posted February 8, 2020 Author Share Posted February 8, 2020 23 hours ago, nipsu said: I also took mirtazapine for sleeping and its very difficult to withdraw from. My doc didnt believe that i have withdrawal symptoms and said to me that my depression is getting worse and prescribed brintellix for depression. I ate 12 days brintellix before i found SA and realized that it is big mistake if i continue taking brintellix so i stopped taking it. Now i have reinstated to 2.7 mg mirtazapine but i also suffer from moderate cognitive dysfunction and early morning awakenings. I have to use mental capacity which i currently have sparingly and it means i have to avoid overloading it with irrelevant information. Like you i have also sensitivity for certain vitamins and other supplements and i try to eat healthy. Has your sleep got any better during withdrawal? Yes that is very common that doctors don't believe withdrawal symptoms. I have heard that so many times. That is frustrating. Did you knew that there is Finnish peer support group in Facebook named "Suljettu ssri-vieroituksen vertaisryhmä"? I highly recommend that. I don't have usually problems with sleeping. When I tapered benzos I had because I tried to do it too fast. I got free from Mirtazapine quite fast about one week using Olanzapine very fast lowering doses but I also used SSRI in that time. I accidentally note that olanzapine helped mirtazapine withdrawal symptoms when they gave me that for sleeping in hospital where I was just few days. But if use it then need to be very careful that not use it long. It is also addicted. My Mirtazapine dose was about 3,75 mg and I got off cold turkey from that dose using olanzapine about like this: 10 mg olanzapine, two days later 5 mg, two days later 2,5 mg, two days later 1,25 mg. I mean I took it only every second night. Don't remember exactly but about like that. After that I didn't had sleeping problems but some Mirtazapine withdrawing symptoms especially at night. But I used that SSRI so I can't know did it helped for sleep but I don't think so. I have heard some cases when somebody had quit Mirtazapine and after that he sleep only 2 hours every night and months later he has start to sleep 5 hours and finally normal sleep. I have understood that the last 3,75 mg is the hardest one when you tapering Mirtazapine. When you get free from Mirtazapine I recommend to find natural ways for sleep. I also have limited capacity how much I can use computers and write or read and so on. I try to limit using Facebook for example. Try to avoid all stress and don't use caffeine or any other stimulants. When I tapered mirtazapine I mixed it to half liter water and used precision scales. And need to shake that liquid right before take off part of that. I tapered very small amounts often. It's called micro tapering. But didn't get under 3,75 mg but finally I made that cold turkey using olanzapine just a very little time. But if it worked for me like that it don't mean that it will work for you like that. I can only tell you my own experience. Everything started 2015 and here's shortly how it went: Bad diet change --> health problems --> problems caused by medicines --> 5-6 months benzos --> about half year Mirtazapine for supporting sleep in benzo tapering (because I first tried to do it too fast) --> Mirtazapine caused more problems --> 3 years Escitalopram (including tapering) --> 1 year tapering from 15 mg to 5,73 mg and then cold turkey from that dose in september 2019. Link to comment
Ismo Posted February 9, 2020 Author Share Posted February 9, 2020 I would be glad if somebody could answer a few questions. What causes that the nervous systems become so sensitive to many things? What causes that the digestion system don't work properly? Why gaba/glutamate system goes broken? What are the mechanisms that causes those things? And what causes the burning sensations in the brain? After quitting the medicine is there residues from the medicine in tissues and where and if there is how long they stay there and can I remove they somehow? How much medicine residues in the body affect the symptoms? Everything started 2015 and here's shortly how it went: Bad diet change --> health problems --> problems caused by medicines --> 5-6 months benzos --> about half year Mirtazapine for supporting sleep in benzo tapering (because I first tried to do it too fast) --> Mirtazapine caused more problems --> 3 years Escitalopram (including tapering) --> 1 year tapering from 15 mg to 5,73 mg and then cold turkey from that dose in september 2019. Link to comment
Moderator Emeritus Gridley Posted February 9, 2020 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted February 9, 2020 3 hours ago, Ismo said: I would be glad if somebody could answer a few questions. Psychiatric drugs like Mirtazapine and Escitalopram change the actual architecture of the brain. SSRI's like Escitalopram shut down neurotransmitters, which causes the brain and central nervous system to function abnormally. Other parts of the brain try to balance the abnormality. Then, when we stop taking the drugs, the brain tries to regain its normal function. This is a long and complicated process that results in imbalances and symptoms as the brain tries to "get it right" again. The central nervous system underlies every function of the body. When it's out of balance, as it is in withdrawal as the brain tries to get back to normal, all kinds of symptoms, physical, mental and emotional, can result, including extreme sensitivities, gaba/glutamate disfunction, digestive problems, brain zaps, burning sensation in the brain, and many, many more. It is not the residues of the drug in your system. The drug is out of your system, depending on the half-life of the drug, quickly, no longer than a month at most. There is no need to remove them because they're gone. Psychiatric drugs are not like aspirin, when it's out of your system quickly and the effects of the drug stop. As I said, the drugs are out of your system but they've left a "goodbye present" - they're changed your brain. These two posts explain further: On 8/30/2011 at 2:28 PM, Rhiannon said: When we stop taking the drug, we have a brain that has designed itself so that it works in the presence of the drug; now it can't work properly without the drug because it's designed itself so that the drug is part of its chemistry and structure. It's like a plant that has grown on a trellis; you can't just yank out the trellis and expect the plant to be okay. When the drug is removed, the remodeling process has to take place in reverse. SO--it's not a matter of just getting the drug out of your system and moving on. If it were that simple, none of us would be here. It's a matter of, as I describe it, having to grow a new brain. I believe this growing-a-new-brain happens throughout the taper process if the taper is slow enough. (If it's too fast, then there's not a lot of time for actually rebalancing things, and basically the brain is just pedaling fast trying to keep us alive.) It also continues to happen, probably for longer than the symptoms actually last, throughout the time of recovery after we are completely off the drug, which is why recovery takes so long. AND On 12/3/2015 at 10:41 AM, apace41 said: Basically- you have a building where the MAJOR steel structures are trying to be rebuilt at different times - ALL while people are coming and going in the building and attempting to work. It would be like if the World Trade Center Towers hadn't completely fallen - but had crumbled inside in different places.. Imagine if you were trying to rebuild the tower - WHILE people were coming and going and trying to work in the building! You'd have to set up a temporary elevator - but when you needed to fix part of that area, you'd have to tear down that elevator and set up a temporary elevator somewhere else. And so on. You'd have to build, work around, then tear down, then build again, then work around, then build... ALL while people are coming and going, ALL while the furniture is being replaced, ALL while the walls are getting repainted... ALL while life is going on INSIDE the building. No doubt it would be chaotic. That is EXACTLY what is happening with windows and waves. The windows are where the body has "got it right" for a day or so - but then the building shifts and the brain works on something else - and it's chaos again while another temporary pathway is set up to reroute function until repairs are made. Gridley Introduction Lexapro 20 mg since 2004. Begin Brassmonkey Slide Taper Jan. 2017. End 2017 year 1 of taper at 9.25mg End 2018 year 2 of taper at 4.1mg End 2019 year 3 of taper at 1.0mg Oct. 30, 2020 Jump to zero from 0.025mg. Current dose: 0.000mg 3 year, 10 month taper is 100% complete. Ativan 1 mg to 1.875mg 1986-2020, two CT's and reinstatements Nov. 2020, 7-week Ativan-Valium crossover to 18.75mg Valium Feb. 2021, begin 10%/4 week taper of 18.75mg Valium End 2021 year 1 of Valium taper at 6mg End 2022 year 2 of Valium taper at 2.75mg End 2023 year 3 of Valium taper at 1mg Jan. 24, 2024: Hold at 1mg and shift to Imipramine taper. Taper is 95% complete. Imipramine 75 mg daily since 1986. Jan.-Sept. 2016 tapered to 14.4mg March 22, 2022: Begin 10%/4 week taper Aug. 5, 2022: hold at 9.5mg and shift to Valium taper Jan. 24, 2024: Resume Imipramine taper. Current dose as of Sept 25: 3.6mg Taper is 95% complete. Supplements: multiple, quercetin, omega-3, vitamins C, E and D3, magnesium glycinate, probiotic, zinc, melatonin .3mg, iron, serrapeptase, nattokinase, L-Glutamine, milk thistle, choline I am not a medical professional and this is not medical advice. It is information based on my own experience as well as that of other members who have survived these drugs. 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Ismo Posted February 12, 2020 Author Share Posted February 12, 2020 Thanks for the answers. I have one question that I have wondered a long time. I use some supplements for manipulating my nervous system and keeping symptoms away. I use synthetic vitamin D3, B12, chromium, vitamin K1 and K2, taurine, few different magnesium including magtein and omega 3. Those supplements keep my symptoms much easier. Some of those is for manipulating glutamate/gaba system and some of those for serotonin and some for calming nervous system. Is there any possibility that using those supplements could make recovering slower or even block that? I think if I stop those supplements the situation will become nightmare. That's what I know that magnesium and omega 3 is fine. Vitamin D3 I use a very special way for manipulating glutamate. I take it 4 times a day. At 6 am 1000 IU, at 10 am 1000 IU, at 2 pm 1000 IU and the last dose of the day is 2000 IU and I take it at 6 pm. That may sounds weird but it works for me like that. I'm just worried that can those supplements make harm for healing? Can they somehow disturb recovering of the brain? Everything started 2015 and here's shortly how it went: Bad diet change --> health problems --> problems caused by medicines --> 5-6 months benzos --> about half year Mirtazapine for supporting sleep in benzo tapering (because I first tried to do it too fast) --> Mirtazapine caused more problems --> 3 years Escitalopram (including tapering) --> 1 year tapering from 15 mg to 5,73 mg and then cold turkey from that dose in september 2019. Link to comment
Ismo Posted February 15, 2020 Author Share Posted February 15, 2020 What is the best way to training for brain healing? Everything started 2015 and here's shortly how it went: Bad diet change --> health problems --> problems caused by medicines --> 5-6 months benzos --> about half year Mirtazapine for supporting sleep in benzo tapering (because I first tried to do it too fast) --> Mirtazapine caused more problems --> 3 years Escitalopram (including tapering) --> 1 year tapering from 15 mg to 5,73 mg and then cold turkey from that dose in september 2019. Link to comment
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