Mimi79: Will I survive?

[Mimi79]

 

Hello everyone,

This is my first post and I want to apologize for my poor English, I’m a French Canadian. I will try my best!  

My story started in 2007, when my GP put me on mirtazapine because I was suffering a big bout of insomnia, following a stressful year. I was a young 27 year old woman without any health issue and I was very naive at this time. I trusted my GP a lot. Big mistake! I went to see a psychologist and did some cbt. This allowed me to taper down my mirt, so after 5 months of tapering,   I stopped mirtazapine.  Of course, no one has told me about withdrawal syndrome, so I thought that the rebound of insomnia (from mirtazapine) was a relapse. This is where my GP decided that I had a general anxiety disorder. I was now labeled.  She put me on celexa 20mg (with seroquel 25mg).  

4 months later, I got pregnant, so my dear GP asked me to quit Celexa and seroquel asap. I immediately stopped seroquel and I tapered down celexa from feb 2009 and stopped it by July 2009, 
at 6 months of pregnancy (My GP assured me it was safe for my baby).  I already had the intuition that a rapid weaning was not a good idea.  I didn’t suffer any w/d symptoms at that time and 
finished my pregnancy in pretty good shape. Few months later, 2 months after giving birth, I had a relapse of anxiety in the form of my dear insomnia coming back. Of course, my GP wanted to 
put me back on AD. This is where we started to have trouble finding an AD that was working for me. Celexa wasn’t working anymore.  I tried cymbalta and it wasn’t working either.  I tried Paxil and
 it finally worked. 

 

I stayed on Paxil for four years and a half. By mid 2014, after some stressful events,  

I started to feel that it wasn’t working anymore.  My GP asked me to quit Paxil fast then switch to mirtazapine. So I quit Paxil within 3 weeks.  After the last dose, I had very hard time for the first 3 weeks. Then she put me on mirtazapine 30mg and Pristiq 50mg.

I stayed on this cocktail for some years.  

At some point, I asked my GP if I could stop my AD, but she explained to me condescendingly that I was like a diabetic with insulin, I couldn’t live without those meds. She was destroying my self 
confidence. 

In 2018, I decided to stop Pristiq because I wanted to have only one AD to take. I taper down Pristiq , by switching to effexor, relatively slowly (but more than 10%) and stopped it by January 2019.
 My GP upped my dosage of mirtazapine to 45mg to compensate.

This is where problems started.  I didn’t feel any w/d symptoms in the beginning, but slowly, during the next months, I started to feel more and more anxiety. By May, I had a big relapse of anxiety related insomnia.  I overcame my insomnia with cognitive behavioral therapy, without any meds. This gave me some confidence so I decided to wean myself of any drugs.

I started a slow taper of mirtazapine . I decreased my dose by 10% each 2 weeks. In august, I reached 30mg of mirtazapine and decided to make a little break from tapering and stayed on that dose for few weeks. Unfortunately, during that break, I’ve had the biggest relapse of anxiety of ALL my life! Of course, my GP asked me to return at 45mg of mirtazapine. But it didn’t improve my mood.

 Since then, I’m struggling with a lot of anxiety and I’m not able to get rid of it. I’m experiencing big mood swings. Sometime I see some improvement, then the next week I fall again in a deep hole of anxiety.  I don’t understand myself anymore.  It’s like I’m a stranger in my own body! Worst of all, 4 weeks ago, I started to have OCD like obsessive thoughts and that’s very unusual to me, because I never had OCD before and I'm 40!

I’m actually seeing a good psychologist, but even with that, I’m not able to cope.

So I’m here and I really don’t know what to do. I’m very desperate because I don’t understand what’s happening to me. I have the feeling that mirtazapine is pooping out and that it causes some of my problems.  Maybe I’m always on the rebound of stopping Pristiq to. Who knows!  This is why I would like to stop this drug and heal myself from all this toxic stuff!!

Sorry, I had a lot to say...

Thank you

 

 

 

[Gridley]

Welcome to SA, Mimi79.  Your English is fine.  To start, yes, you will survive.  The brain has a remarkable ability to heal itself, known as neuroplasticity.

 

If I understand you correctly, you are now on 45mg Mirtazapine and no other psychiatric drugs.  Is that correct?

 

It seems you have several things going on.  First, you may have kindled on the Mirtazapine.  Kindling happens when you go on and off a drug and up and down in dosage, over and over.  This causes your central nervous system to become sensitized, makes withdrawal worse and affects how the Mirtazapine works in your body.

 

Second, your Mirtazapine taper ending in August of 10% every two weeks was twice as fast as we recommend, so you are very probably suffering from withdrawal.  Anxiety is a very common withdrawal symptom.  Doctors don't believe antidepressant withdrawal exists, attributing withdrawal symptoms to "return of the underlying condition" and throw more drugs at you, which is what your doctor did next when he upped you to 45mg.  You're also probably suffering withdrawal from your too-fast Pristiq/Effexor taper.

 

What is withdrawal syndrome.

 

Daily Checklist of Antidepressant Withdrawal Symptoms (PDF)

 

Third, when your GP had you increase to 45mg, your system was extremely sensitized and had also become accustomed to the lower dose, so the too-large increase overwhelmed you system.  Your central nervous system (CNS) at that point was a different and, due to the rapid taper to 30mg, much more delicate CNS than when you had previously been at 45mg.

 

Fourth, you write in your signature (thanks for doing your signature, very helpful) that the Mirtazapine is starting to poop out.  When this happens, raising the dose can very temporarily work but in the end the only option is to taper off the drug.

 

Tachyphylaxis or As It’s Lovingly Known “Poopout”

 

You write that you would like to stop this drug and heal yourself, and we will be happy to help you with that.  We recommend tapering by no more than 10% of your current dose every four weeks.

 

Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

 

An alternate tapering method that we also recommend is four smaller drops every week for a four weeks followed by a hold.  This method is gentler than the straight 10% method and, given your history, is something you might consider.

 

The Brassmonkey Slide Method of Micro-tapering

 

This link is specifically about tapering Mirtazapine and include instructions on how to get the non-start doses you'll need for your taper.

 

Tips for tapering off Remeron (mirtazapine)

 

The comment by your doctor about your needing psychiatric drugs like a diabetic needs insulin is a reference to the "chemical imbalance" theory made up by the drug companies and now totally discredited.

Again, chemical imbalance is a myth. Stop the lies, please ...

We don't recommend a lot of supplements on SA, as many members report being sensitive to them due to our over-reactive nervous systems, but two supplements that we do recommend are magnesium (glycinate is a good form) and omega 3 (fish oil). Many people find these to be calming to the nervous system.

 

Magnesium, nature's calcium channel blocker 

 

Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil) 

 

Add in one at a time and at a low dose in case you do experience problems.

 

This is your Introduction topic, where you can ask questions and connect with other members.  We're glad you found your way here.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 2, 2020 by DataGuy
Replacing broken Mirt link

[Mimi79]

Thank you so much Gridley.

 

I didn't mention it, but I've been taking Omega-3, B and D vitamines, probiotics and magnesium glycinate for several years now. 

 

But yesterday, I did a blood test at my job (I work in an hospital) and my B12 is really hight above the normal range. Do I have to stop B vit?

 

Thank you.

 

 

[JoJo90]

Hi this video proves how powerful neuroplasticity is, a women and her story 

 

 

[Mimi79]

Hi again,

I would like to use the BrassMonkey method, but how can I remove so little amount from my 45mg pills? Do I have to buy a numeric scale? Is it better to make a liquid with my pills? What is the simpliest way to do that?

 

Thank you.

[Gridley]

On 2/19/2020 at 9:45 AM, Mimi79 said:

Do I have to stop B vit?

Mimi,

 

We don't recommend B vitamins during withdrawal because they can be overstimulating to your sensitized system.

 

Hypersensitive to B Vitamin or B-Complex  

[Gridley]

21 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

I would like to use the BrassMonkey method, but how can I remove so little amount from my 45mg pills? Do I have to buy a numeric scale? Is it better to make a liquid with my pills? What is the simpliest way to do that?

 

This link explains how to get the small doses you'll need, basically either making your own liquid, weighing on a digital scale or having your doses compounded (this can be expensive).  

 

Tips for tapering off Remeron (mirtazapine)

 

If you decide to weigh, many members use the AWS Gemini-20 scale, available on Amazon.

 

The GEMINI-20 Scale

 

 

[Mimi79]

Hi everyone,

I’ve just experiencing the worst night of my Life. I’ll make a Little update. 
Last week, my GP asked me to up my dosage of Mirt to 52.5mg in Hope that it could Help.

After 2-3 days, my anxiety got worse and this is where I decided that enought is enought and that I wanted to stop drugs. 
So last sunday, after only five days at 52,5mg, I drop the dose at 41.25mg. (My usual dose is 45mg).

 Few first days where ok, but yesterday, I started to feel more and more depress and sooo anxious. During last night, it has been hell. I experienced nausea, skyrocket anxiety, sweating, etc... I didn’t sleep at All.

 

I really need some advices! Do I have to stabilize at my usual dosage (45mg) before thinking of Tapering? I’m so bored to take this drug that I wanted to start going down asap...

 

Thank you 

[Mimi79]

I updated my signature, because I've miss some recent informations in the previous version.

[Gridley]

5 minutes ago, Mimi79 said:

So last sunday, after only five days at 52,5mg, I drop the dose at 41.25mg. (My usual dose is 45mg).

 Few first days where ok, but yesterday, I started to feel more and more depress and sooo anxious. During last night, it has been hell. I experienced nausea, skyrocket anxiety, sweating, etc... I didn’t sleep at All.

 

 

Because of the danger of kindling (or further kindling), I would stay at 41.25mg and make no further changes.  What your system needs now is stability.  It may take a while for you to stabilize after going up and down in dose and you need to wait before tapering.  I would say at least a month.  Please do not be tempted to to taper until you have stabilized.  

[Mimi79]

Finally, I coudnt handle this awful feeling of anxiety and depression, so I uped the dose at 45mg and a big part of my worst symptoms fade away in few hours. Can I stabilize at 45 mg instead of 41.25mg?

[Gridley]

16 minutes ago, Mimi79 said:

Can I stabilize at 45 mg instead of 41.25mg?

Yes, that is fine.  Stabilize there.  I'm glad you're feeling better.

[Mimi79]

Last question for today.

I dont really understand why I've made a reaction that big for a small drop (I've been only 5 days on 52.5mg). Is this mean that I will have to make a very slow tapering (less than 10%)?

Thank You so much!

[Gridley]

Just now, Mimi79 said:

dont really understand why I've made a reaction that big for a small drop (I've been only 5 days on 52.5mg). Is this mean that I will have to make a very slow tapering (less than 10%)?

The two changes in dose (going up then going down) were upsetting to your central nervous system, which is very sensitive now and needs stability.  The reaction you had doesn't necessarily have any connection to the rate at which you will be able to taper.  We'll cross that bridge when we come to it, and it'll be clear from your symptoms how fast your body wants you to taper.

[Mimi79]

Thanks Gridley,

I would like to have some testimonials about brassmonkey method. Do you find it easy to follow? Do you have a lot of w/d Symptoms? What is Your opinion regarding this method?

 

I prepare myself so I search for some info.

Thank you.

[Gridley]

7 minutes ago, Mimi79 said:

Do you find it easy to follow? Do you have a lot of w/d Symptoms? What is Your opinion regarding this method?

 

Yes, I found it easy to follow.  I made a chart to keep track of how much mgpw (milligram pilll weight) I was taking, how much magi (milligram active ingredient I was taking) and what percentage drop I was doing that week (always 2 1/2% except for the two week hold).

 

I have tolerable WD symptoms.  There are going to be some symptoms no matter what method you use.

 

The method worked for me.  It's a well thought out method that makes sense, and I believe it helped me with my taper.  Because of the limitations of the Gemini scale, at around 2.5mg I had to switch to a straight 10% every four weeks taper, and I think my symptoms have increased slightly using this method.

[Mimi79]

I have another question. Like I wrote it in my signature, I’m using Seroquel 25mg on and off as needed for sleep problems. Some weeks I can use it 2-3 nights,  some weeks not at all. 

what is the Best? Do I have to stop it? Or take a Small  dose every night?

[Passionlifetime]

I am sorry for you....May God help u.

[Mimi79]

Today I feel a little low. I’m experiencing a lot of anxiety, ocd like thoughts and maybe some Akathisia since de last 2 weeks. I understand now that I need to give stability to my CNS. 
My question is: does my very sensitize CNS is causing me this anxiety and ocd? And can I hope that stabilizing my CNS will diminish those awful symptoms? I hope that it will. Because I wont be able to cope if it stays like this during all my W/D from mirtazapine (if so, it’s gonna be 4 very long years!).

I think I only need some strong encouragements.

At anyone who’s reading, thank you...

[Gridley]

7 minutes ago, Mimi79 said:

My question is: does my very sensitize CNS is causing me this anxiety and ocd? And can I hope that stabilizing my CNS will diminish those awful symptoms?

Yes, your sensitized CNS is causing your symptoms.  As you stabilize, symptoms will improve.  The important thing is to make no more changes to your Mirtazapine dose.

[Mimi79]

I know. I hold on. I’ve even decided to stay away from Ativan and Seroquel that I was using sometimes when I was to anxious. It’s hard to resist. But I will do my Best.

[Shep]

5 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

I know. I hold on. I’ve even decided to stay away from Ativan and Seroquel that I was using sometimes when I was to anxious. It’s hard to resist. But I will do my Best.

 

Mimi, how long were you taking each of these drugs? How many times were you taking them each week? I'm just trying to gage if you might be dependent on them or not. Sometimes people do become dependent, even with periodic use. 

[Mimi79]

Seroquel: Maybe 3-4 Times a week in the last month. At 25mg. The nights I don’t use it, I have good sleep.

 

Ativan: I’ve been several months not using it, but in the last month, Maybe 2-3 pills per week, at 0.5mg. I never use it 2 days in a row. And never twice the same day.

 

Thanks

[Mimi79]

Do you think it is enought to create a dependance? I’m still struggling with a lot of anxiety and depression feelings since I came back to 45mg. I know that it’s been only 4 days that I stabilize, but it’s very hard. I feel so discourage. I hope I will see some improvement soon. I think I’ve never feel so bad in all my life.

[Mimi79]

Another question. I would like to read some testimonials of people who are actually tapering with the brassmonkey.  That are maybe at their beginning, like me. Where can I find those? 
Thank you!

[Shep]

23 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

Seroquel: Maybe 3-4 Times a week in the last month. At 25mg. The nights I don’t use it, I have good sleep.

 

Ativan: I’ve been several months not using it, but in the last month, Maybe 2-3 pills per week, at 0.5mg. I never use it 2 days in a row. And never twice the same day.

 

 

When was the last time you took each of these drugs? Please add the months that you used these drugs to your signature. A direct link to your signature is here:

 

Account Settings - Create or Update Your Signature

 

It's possible you could be dependent, but if you're able to sleep without either one, you may want to avoid them. 

 

Are you able to tolerate magnesium? If so, you may want to try that to see if it's calming to your nervous system. Fish oil is another supplement that may be helpful. Gridley left links to more information about these earlier in your thread. It's best to add in one at a time. I would start with magnesium first to see if it helps with sleep. 

 

 

[Mimi79]

@Shep That’s it, I’ve set my signature to include Ativan and Seroquel. Like I said, I’ve been using them 2-3 times a week. The night I don’t use seroquel, I don’t have any sleep problems. I use it when I’m more stressful during the evening.

I try to use Ativan as less as possible, I don’t use it more then 2-3 times per week. And I’m only using them since last january.

And yes, I’m using magnesium Glycinate, D vit. and omega 3.

Thanks

[Shebon]

Mimi:

 

I became dependent on Ativan taking it only 3 days per week....In between I suffered the interdosing withdrawals and this might be a factor in your case....both for Ativan and Seroquel.   

 

I think if you could drop the ativan and seroquel, you might stabilize faster....I had to crossover to a low dose valium (3.75 mg.) and taper off that.

 

Wishes for the best,

Shebon

[Mimi79]

@Shebon Thank you for the advice. Maybe you’re right, because I feel so stressful, the third day after a dose of Ativan. Like if my body ask for it. 
I think I’ll stop it right away. 

[Mimi79]

Hi ,

I’ve something new to ask. Today, I’ve started a very painful UTI and Gp prescribed me CIPRO. I’m use to UTI as I have one each year. And I’ve always treated them with CIPRO without any problems. My last UTI was last December (2 months ago) and, despite I was in ADWD, Cipro didn’t have any effect on my anxiety or my mood. 
But I’ve read a lot of terrifying things about Cipro on this forum (SA), so I’m now very afraid of taking them! I now experience some anxiety. I’m not sure it is the Cipro, but more the things I’ve read here. 

So what should I do? I’m a bit afraid of taking them, but on the other wise, I’m prone to pyelonephritis, so I need a good cure for my UTI.

 

Thanks.

[Colonial]

"....Although fluoroquinolones like ciprofloxacin (Cipro) or levofloxacin (Levaquin) have been commonly used to treat UTIs in the past, recommendations now state this class should be reserved for more serious infections when possible..."  www.drugs.com

 

Fluoroquinolones are very dangerous drugs. I have had neurological reactions to them.  The medical practice I use doesn not even prescribe them any more. Although You may not have had a reaction in the past, if Your brain is now in Withdrawal, You may very well have a reaction to them, but You don't want to assume the worst.  

[Shep]

Mimi, as you and Colonial have both mentioned, the fluoroquinolones are dangerous. This is especially true with people who've been exposed to benzos because this type of antibiotic actually displaces benzodiazepines from their binding sites on GABA-receptors. This class of antibiotics can precipitate acute withdrawal in people taking or tapering from benzodiazepines. Although you are no longer taking a benzo, some people are still sensitive to this even after they come off. So we urge caution. 

 

Is there another type of antibiotic that your doctor could prescribe? Please all your doctor and see if you can get another type of antibiotic. 

[Mimi79]

Thanks to all for your answer.

It is not an easy task here to see a GP, so I will try my best to reach one and not interrupting my treatment for too long, bc I’m prone to pyelonephritis.

I will go see my pharmacist, maybe he will be able to switch my antibiotic or at least give me some advice about another one.

 

Thank you again and I hope it will be over soon, because this is causing me a lot of anxiety.

I want to have a good cure for my UTI without hurting myself.

[Mimi79]

So I changed my antibiotic Cipro for another one, macrobid, like suggest by my pharmacist. When I asked my doctor to change it, he didn't understand why I wanted to change a ''good med'' for an ''oldschool'' one.

Anyway. I have another question. Since the last 3-4 weeks, I'm having OCD like thoughts. I'm 40 and I've never had any OCD before. Could it be the AD that causing me those new things?

Thank you.

[Shep]

Definitely, Mimi - OCD symptoms are VERY common during withdrawal. Please see:

 

Obsessive Compulsive Disorder or OCD: Repetitive, intrusive thoughts, compulsive behaviors

 

I'm glad you were able to get your antibiotic switched. It's unfortunate that so many doctors have bought into the pharmaceutical marketing that newer drugs are always better. The long-term outcomes of so many drugs say it just isn't so.

 

Please let us know how you're doing over the coming days. 

 

[Mimi79]

So if this ocd symptoms are from WD, do they will fade away with time when my WD will be over?