Holly26: tapering venlafaxine with a compound

[ChessieCat]

And by the way.  If you did decide to updose please only updose by a tiny amount, do not go back to 15mg.  It is better to make a tiny increase than to risk taking too much.  0.25mg might be enough.  No more than 0.5mg.  Please note that these doses are at this time, ie 1 month on 14mg.  If it's longer then the dose will need to be lower.

[ChessieCat]

 

17 hours ago, Holly26 said:

I take the Effexor in the evening, in generell i dont feel a change in anything after i took it.

 

Q:  Have you always taken Effexor in the evening?

 

Q:  If you have previously taken it in the morning, when did you change to evening?

 

Antidepressants are generally taken in the morning.  I'm wondering if changing to the morning might make a difference.  I've asked the other mods for their thoughts.

 

If you do decide to do this, please only move it forward by 1 hour each day.  This is gentler on your system.

[Holly26]

Hi Chessie,

 

Thank you so so much to take the time and made such an effort to send me all this!!! BIG HUGE THANK YOU!!!!!

The crises team will be here at 1 and i will tell them that i need more time to think it through and that prozac or celexa would make me feel better. They will say im not compliant i guess. But people pleasing here could get me into more problems. They already said they dont discuss meds which is interesting because trust got me into this scenario with Venlafaxin. They wronged me so badly , i thought i was bipolar 2 for 10 years now they reassed me and said its not its unipolar. Im still very depressed most days over the last years. And yes its true, its a new symptom pattern . Which can get pretty scary . Thanks for your help!!!!! So very much !!@

 

[ChessieCat]

9 hours ago, Holly26 said:

They wronged me so badly , i thought i was bipolar 2 for 10 years now they reassed me and said its not its unipolar.

 

That is still a psychiatric label.  I wouldn't be pinning that on myself.

 

Once you have been taking psychiatric drugs, then it is no longer possible to diagnose a mental health condition.  And that is stated in the DSM. 

 

This post has excerpts from The Antidepressant Solution by Glenmullen 2005.

 

See under the heading Chapter 4:

 

☼-nz11-climbs-onboard

 

[ChessieCat]

You didn't answer my questions about when you take venlafaxine.  Sometimes moving the drug dosing time or split dosing can make a difference.

 

10 hours ago, Holly26 said:

i will tell them that i need more time to think it through

 

I am pleased to read this.

[Altostrata]

On 11/1/2020 at 1:59 AM, Holly26 said:

Hi Altrostata,

 

its more than fatigue.  I have all symptoms of clinical depression. I checked everything. Multiple blood work.For years i supplement D3, B12, Magnesium and get it checked regular. Mri, chiro, scan of my neck. I even had my genes tested.  Turned out I have mthfr 667 heterozygous which means i have reduced capacity to methylate b Vitamins which are crucial for neurotransmitters. Since than i take l methofolate.  No change in my mood. I got diagnosed with bipolar 2 ,14  years ago but now they reasses me and they dont know if i am bipolar or not their tendency is no since i only have very low mood over the last years.

 

Kind Regards 

Holly

 

Holly, what are the symptoms you have? "Clinical depression" doesn't mean anything. How do you feel this "depression"?

 

Why are you calling the crisis team?

 

On 11/13/2020 at 3:21 PM, Holly26 said:

...But i also noticed that the slow taper from Venlafaxin doesnt work well anymore. Everytime i decrease i get hit by withdrawls. My psychiatrist said that the Noradrenalin part from Venlafaxin starts at 225mg. Since im down to 14 mg i was hoping that im only dealing with blocked serotonin receptors and that there might be a Chance that it works. Thanks again for your help!!!!!

 

If you have been getting withdrawal symptoms all the time you've been tapering venlafaxine, it's very possible your current symptoms, including fatigue and what you've been calling "depression", are from withdrawal. Being very tired is a common withdrawal symptom.

 

Simply holding at your current dose or updosing slightly to 14.5mg may help the symptoms to gradually settle down.

 

Your psychiatrist doesn't know what's going on. Very few grasp withdrawal symptoms.

 

Gradually moving Effexor from evening to morning may move any stimulating effects it has to earlier in the day, which may help you feel better.

 

Many people find fish oil and magnesium supplements helpful, see
https://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/36-king-of-supplements-omega-3-fatty-acids-fish-oil/
https://survivingantidepressants.org/topic/15483-magnesium-natures-calcium-channel-blocker/

 

You might try a little bit of one at a time to see how it affects you.

 

Please note this is a site for going off drugs. We don't treat "depression" and cannot recommend drugs to treat it. If you want to go off drugs, you'll have to manage whatever symptoms you get, whether they are withdrawal symptoms or a return of your original complaint. See

 

Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

 

Easing your way into meditation for a stressed-out nervous system

 

Music for self-care: calms hyperalertness, anxiety, aids relaxation and sleep

 

Ways to cope with daily anxiety

 

[Holly26]

Hi Chessie,

 

I take Venlafaxin at 9 in the evening. I changed the time , slowly, 1 hour every day about 4 month ago because i tried Wellbutrin for 4 days ( not good ) 

and the dr said to take Wellbutrin in the morning and Venlafaxin at Night. I didnt realise a difference switching it to the night.  My symptoms are for years the same. Hypersomnia, fatigue, drowsy, depression . I had those symptoms before i ever took Venlafaxin to be fair. Thanks for taking the time and effort to help me. MUCH APPRECIATED!!!

[Holly26]

Hi Altrostata,

 

my depression feels very " physical". I sleep excessively like 12 hours every night and than nap sometimes during the day. I feel exhausted, drowsy, i cant think share and i have bad brain fog. I ruminate all day wondering whats wrong with me. Thats why i got in contact with the mental health crisis Team plus to get reassesed.  Positive news is im no longer bipolar "only" unipolar . But tbh i dont really believe anything anymore what they say. Trust is eroded.  

 

I have to give my psychiatrist that much, he is aware of Venlafaxin withdrawl and doesnt prescribe it anymore. Plus they recommend my taper no more than 10% or less. I was surprised.  

 

Interesting point, maybe the stimulating effect from the morning is gone and now im even more tired 🤔. Never thought about it. Thank you very much for taking the time to help me. I will have a look at the links!!!! ❤

[Altostrata]

So you have fatigue, correct? That is a common withdrawal symptom. Withdrawal fatigue is not "clinical depression". If you stop tapering for a while, it should gradually go away.

 

How do you feel before and after you take venlafaxine every day?

[Holly26]

Hi , 

 

i dont feel any different before or after i take Venlafaxin.  I just had a thought came to my mind regarding cbd oil. I thought i might can use the fact that cbd inhibits cyp2d6 to my advantage. If i use it before the taper and block the cyp2d6 Enzyme for about 4 days would that prolongue the half life of Venlafaxin and with it reduce withdrawl?  I would really appreciate your opinion on this. Thank you!!!

[Holly26]

Hi Everyone,

 

I decided to add 5mg of Fluoxetin to my 10mg of Effexor , 6 days ago. It did ease some wd but It was still a tough ride. Im now down to 3mg Effexor. 

Since i have taken Prozac now for 6 days im getting scared continue because im scared to get WD from Prozac than 🤷‍♀️. I dont know what to do from here. Advice is much appreciated!! Thank you all for helping me!!

[Holly26]

OMG I feel like i just screwed myself completely with trying the prozac bridge. Do ich have to taper 5mg Fluoxetin now for years by the 10% rule??? I cant take this anymore. Im so scared now

[Shep]

3 hours ago, Holly26 said:

I decided to add 5mg of Fluoxetin to my 10mg of Effexor , 6 days ago. It did ease some wd but It was still a tough ride. Im now down to 3mg Effexor. 

 

Please post the details of your recent Effexor reductions since October 31, when you were at 14 mg. 

 

I'll ask the moderators more familiar with the Prozac Bridge to advise you. 

 

 

 

[Holly26]

Thank you!

How do i change the Signature again? I basically tapered down to 10mg Effexor with the 5% rule every 4-6 weeks than i added 5mg Fluoxetin for 6 days and now im down to 3mg Effexor.  

Im so scared that i wont be able to come off of Fluoxetin now 😭. I feel i screwed myself completely 

[Shep]

5 minutes ago, Holly26 said:

I basically tapered down to 10mg Effexor with the 5% rule every 4-6 weeks

 

Going from 14 mg to 10 mg is a 28.6% reduction. Since you were last at 14 mg October 31, which is less than two months ago, you tapered a lot faster than 5% every 4 - 6 weeks. 

 

It will help to have the exact dates in case an Effexor updose may be helpful. Did you write down which days you made decreases? If so, please include these dates in your signature. 

 

Please re-read your thread, paying special attention to posts by ChessieCat and Altostrata. The advice given was to hold or do a very small updose because it looked like you were dealing with Effexor withdrawal. Adding in a new drug was not recommended and a good explanation given for this - see this post here. 

 

Please don't make any changes yet. Let the other mods have a chance to assess. 

 

8 minutes ago, Holly26 said:

How do i change the Signature again?

 

Here is a direct link to your signature:

 

Account Settings - Create or Update Your Signature

 

Please include:

 

• The actual years and not "for the last 14 years" for the Venlafaxine and include the actual years you were on Lithium
• include the year for this part of your signature - "Im down to 15mg from here i taper 1mg every 4-8 weeks."
• include the year for this part of your signature - "31. Oktober 14mg Venlafaxin"
• include the month and year for this part of your signature - "Since i am at 19mg i experience WD"
• include the exact days (if known) that you reduced the Effexor since October 31, 2020 and the doses
• include the date you introduced Prozac and the dose

 

For more on how to complete a signature, please see:

 

Please summarize your withdrawal history in your signature

[Holly26]

No i went down slowly to 10. I didnt jump from 14 to 10. I tapered very slow. Only increased the speed once i added Fluoxetin 

[Holly26]

I really need some advice on what to do with the Prozac now. I feel miserable.  I took it for 6days (5mg) and nothing today. 

[Shep]

@Holly26Please start a daily drug and symptoms notes journal. Instructions are provided below.

 

Please also update your signature as requested in my last post. Thank you.

 

 

 

On 9/27/2016 at 2:49 PM, Altostrata said:

In the course of discussion in your Introductions forum topic, you may be asked to keep notes on paper of your daily symptom pattern, including when you take your drugs, their dosages, and any symptoms. We ask this because there may be something we can do to reduce the symptoms.

 

What we need to see for every single day over several days is what symptoms you get before and after you take your drugs. If you're not taking any drugs and have withdrawal symptoms, we still need to see your symptom pattern throughout the day:

 

The time of day, dosage, and severity of symptoms are essential information. Include

 

- Time and dosage for all drugs taken throughout the day, psychiatric and non-psychiatric.

- Following each dose, note any symptoms. If you are having a reaction to the drug, it may take hours for a symptom to show up -- that's why we ask you to keep notes all day long.

- If you're not taking any drugs, your symptoms throughout the day.

- Your sleep pattern. Since so many drugs disturb sleep, if you find you're waking in the middle of the night, it could be from a drug you took earlier in the evening. If you're not taking any drugs, there may be ways you can improve your sleep.

And so forth. A diary, in chronological order, looking something like this:
 

Example:

DATE:

 

6 a.m. Woke with anxiety
8 a.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
10 a.m. Stomach is upset
10:30 a.m. Ate breakfast
11:35 a.m. Got a headache, lasted one hour
12:35 p.m. Ate lunch
4 p.m. Feel a bit better
5 p.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
6 p.m. Ate dinner
9:20 p.m. Headache
10:00 p.m. Took 50mg Seroquel
10:20 p.m. Feeling dizzy
10:30 p.m. Fell asleep
2:30 a.m. Woke, took 3mg Ambien (NOT "took 1/2 tablet Ambien")
2:45 a.m. Fell asleep
4:30 a.m. Woke but got back to sleep

 

[Altostrata]

Holly, why did you stop the Prozac?

 

How are you feeling now?

[Holly26]

Hi Cat,

 

I hope you are doing well!

I need some advice please .

The prozac bridge didnt work , i am now down to 4beads from 12mg Venlafaxin for about 2 weeks now. Once i took Prozac for a week i tapered Effexor from 12 mg down to 4 beads within week. My symptoms are pretty bad, mainly high anxiety ( cbd helps a bit with that) , depression, irritabilaty is extreme and very depersonalised and detached from the world.

 

Im scared i got myself into real trouble with trying to bridge.

 

I think about reinstating but i dont know how much mg. Until 12mg i was tapering no more than 5-10 % every 4 weeks sometimes holding month.

 

Advice would be much appreciated.  Im very scared.

 

I could also start taking prozac again and see if this helps instead of reinstating Effexor?

 

Kind Regards 

Holly

[Holly26]

On 12/31/2020 at 3:07 AM, Altostrata said:

Holly, why did you stop the Prozac?

 

How are you feeling now?

Hi Altrose,

 

I stoped the prozac after six days .I got scared i would get hocked on prozac and the WD where still there. Not as bad though. Im completely lost now . Im down to 4 beads Effexor which i prescribe above and not doing well at all. I dont know if i should reinstate Effexor if so how much mg or take prozac again for a bit to ease the wd. 

[ChessieCat]

What are your current symptoms?

 

How is your sleep?

 

How do you feel before and after you take your dose?

 

So that your situation can be assessed it would be helpful if you could provide 3 consecutive days of daily symptom notes, posting one 24 hour period at a time please.

 

Here's how and why:

 

Keep Notes on Paper

[Altostrata]

19 hours ago, Holly26 said:

I stoped the prozac after six days .I got scared i would get hocked on prozac and the WD where still there. Not as bad though. 

 

Do you mean the Prozac was helping a little, but you stopped it anyway? That is not a failed bridge.

 

After you stopped Prozac, when did your symptoms become worse again?

[Holly26]

Hi Altrosa,

 

thank you so much for your answer.

I had the Impression it did help with some of the WD symptoms from Effexor during that week BUT i had high anxiety and insomnia from Prozac and i was scared to take it longer cause than i need to taper off of Prozac 🤷‍♀️.

 

The WD really kicked in about a week after i stoped taking Prozac. 

 

Could it be also withdrawl from Prozac?

[Holly26]

10 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

What are your current symptoms?

 

How is your sleep?

 

How do you feel before and after you take your dose?

 

So that your situation can be assessed it would be helpful if you could provide 3 consecutive days of daily symptom notes, posting one 24 hour period at a time please.

 

Here's how and why:

 

Keep Notes on Paper

 

My symptoms turned from physical, insomnia, flu symptoms, dizzines and brain fog was the worst to mental symptoms. Still have broken sleep ( but not to bad) anxiety ja pretty bad ( my psychiatrist gave me ativan for it which i havent used im getting by with CBD oil) i guess the depression, suicidal ideation, detachment and drowsiness are my most troublesome symptoms. I can deal with the stomach , heart racing but my psychological symptoms are concerning.

There is no difference before taking the 4 beads or after. 

[Holly26]

Hi Everyone,

 

I still dont know if i should reinstate if so to what mg or if i should push through 😟. CBD helps with the insomnia but i have still high levels of anxiety and depression.  

Should i go back to 12mg before the prozac bridge or rather try prozac again and see if that help? Im so lost in this. 

Thanks 

[Holly26]

Hi Everyone,

 

I need some help please. Im still on the 4 beads and my anxiety is so bad that i cant take it anymore. I dont know what to do next. Reinstate Effexor if so how much, go back to Prozac or try 5htp or sth. 

Thank you!!

[Shep]

@Holly26We've repeatedly asked for a drug and symptoms journal. The sooner you provide this, the sooner we can provide advice.

 

I posted instructions for this in this post here. 

 

Please include the CBD oil and any other drugs or supplements you're taking. 

[Holly26]

I did provide the drug Journal 4 posts up. But i will provide it again. 

 

My symptoms turned from physical, insomnia, flu symptoms, dizzines and brain fog was the worst to mental symptoms. Still have broken sleep ( but not to bad) anxiety ja pretty bad ( my psychiatrist gave me ativan for it which i havent used im getting by with CBD oil) i guess the depression, suicidal ideation, detachment and drowsiness are my most troublesome symptoms. I can deal with the stomach , heart racing but my psychological symptoms are concerning.

There is no difference before taking the 4 beads or after. 

[Holly26]

This is all i can offer. My anxiety is so high im in no state to keep a Journal of my symptoms . I guess I figure it out myself than

[Shep]

53 minutes ago, Holly26 said:

I did provide the drug Journal 4 posts up. But i will provide it again. 

 

My symptoms turned from physical, insomnia, flu symptoms, dizzines and brain fog was the worst to mental symptoms. Still have broken sleep ( but not to bad) anxiety ja pretty bad ( my psychiatrist gave me ativan for it which i havent used im getting by with CBD oil) i guess the depression, suicidal ideation, detachment and drowsiness are my most troublesome symptoms. I can deal with the stomach , heart racing but my psychological symptoms are concerning.

There is no difference before taking the 4 beads or after. 

 

Holly, this isn't helpful. If there was no difference in your symptoms all day and night, you wouldn't be sleeping. It would be helpful to know how your symptoms resolve so you're able to fall asleep. This is why we ask for a specific format for the drug and symptoms journal (described here).

 

We're very limited in the assistance we can provide as an online forum. Without knowing more, I can't assist you. Maybe other mods can stop by, but we would be doing more guessing than giving targeted advice based on your symptoms within the context of when you take your drug and supplements (which is the purpose of a drug and symptoms journal). 

[Altostrata]

Are you still taking venlafaxine in the evening?

 

Holly, you have withdrawal syndrome from going off venlafaxine. You dropped it at 12mg when you started Prozac, then you dropped Prozac, which is not the way to do a Prozac bridge. That was your decision, basically to go cold turkey from 12mg venlafaxine.

 

I suppose you might increase the number of beads you're taking. If you're taking 4 beads, you might take 6 and see what happens. It's possible you may wish to go back to 5mg or even 10mg.

 

We can't really tell what's going on because we need more information about when your symptoms occur.

 

We can't answer emergencies.

[Holly26]

Hello,

 

Yes i still take Venlafaxin in the evening. 

 

I know i stopped taking Prozac after a week and once Prozac was out of my System i got severe withdrawls from Effexor. Usually you take Prozac two weeks and than stop. I cant see how this would work. 

My question is, i still take 5mg Venlafaxin and my anxiety levels are really bad. Is it too late to go back up to 10mg? Because its 3 weeks since i dropped to 0.

 

Thank you

[manymoretodays]

Hi Holly26,

Are you taking anything else right now?

How long on the 5 mg of Venlafaxine/Effexor?  Date started?

 

Any improvements at all since you last posted?

Are you sleeping most nights?

 

Simplest way to give us a more objective view, would be to do some Notes

These can also help to track any progress.  You can also note, to the right of the time, anything non-drug coping that has helped, even a little bit.

I see CBD oil, and thoughts of using 5HTP, in above narratives.  Include everything taken, when doing the notes please.  Thank you.

Example:

DATE:

 

6 a.m. Woke with anxiety
8 a.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
10 a.m. Stomach is upset
10:30 a.m. Ate breakfast
11:35 a.m. Got a headache, lasted one hour
12:35 p.m. Ate lunch
4 p.m. Feel a bit better
5 p.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
6 p.m. Ate dinner
9:20 p.m. Headache
10:00 p.m. Took 50mg Seroquel
10:20 p.m. Feeling dizzy
10:30 p.m. Fell asleep
2:30 a.m. Woke, took 3mg Ambien (NOT "took 1/2 tablet Ambien")
2:45 a.m. Fell asleep
4:30 a.m. Woke but got back to sleep

 

And best, sounds like it's been real tough lately.

Love, peace, healing, and growth,

manymoretodays(mmt)

 

 

[Holly26]

Hi manymoretodays,

 

Im not taking anything else. On the 16 of january i went back up to 5mg. Prior to that i took only 4 beads for 2 weeks after a failed bridge. 

The inside of my left eye is very red like bursted blood vessels, im dizzy, drowsy, depressed and anxious.  My sleep is still a bit broken but better. 

 

I wonder if i can go up to 8 or 10mg . Thank good my high anxiety got better. But im not well. Barely functioning.

 

Best wishes 

 

Holly 

[Holly26]

Hi Everyone,

 

I still think bipolar has to be treated with meds. 

Does anyone here has any luck with a hollistic approache??

 

Thank you