Tips to help sleep: so many of us have that awful withdrawal insomnia

[dalsaan]

I have had a hellish month of insomnia, and crying spells due to using sleeping pills and benzos. They don't work on me anymore. It seems that my gaba receptors have become desensitized or something. Most recent experience was with Sonata, which was awful. It gave me the worst suicidal thoughts and drowsiness that lasted all day. I felt worse after using Sonata than not getting any sleep at all last night. None. Even after taking 2 mg of Ativan.

 

So, I saw my Psych today, and she thinks that Mirtazipine is the answer for my anxiety and sleeplessness.  My nerves feel like they are shot to shreds. I need to stabilize and sleep. She suggested I start with half of the lowest dose nightly. She seems to think that I can do this for two weeks and then cut the pill in half for a week and just stop.

 

Please need feedback asap.  Thank you.

  

Hi Lilu,

 

I definitely understand the desperation but since Mirtazipine is an AD, it might not be as easy to stop as the psych doctor thinks it is even at a low dose.   Still, as a rescue med, it might be what you need to get over the hump.

 

This thread might be useful:

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=76103.0

 

Have you tried all the OTC solutions like Tryptophan, 5htp, melatonin, valerian, etc.?   Swanson Vitamins has a 365 money back guarantee and will even pay shipping if you return an item as an FYI.

I understand desperation as well but why you would consider an AD is beyond me. Have you tried any supplements? I would do a patient trial and error on those before an AD, even if it was only proposed for a short time.

 

Dalsaan

[Blackstar]

I would like to add that valerian also comes in a bath mix. I tried it tonight and it turned the water a really cool blue color. While its not strong enough to put me to sleep it was quite therapeutic as the foam at the top made some really cool swirls and patterns. Worth a shot. Dresdner Essenz brand.

[MapleleafGirl]

I take 3 magnesium citrate capsuls evernight...but i am still yet to have a normal sleep...i was always tired on paxil..and during tapering and now...i have the paxil sleep still...where i am sleeping..dreaming..but still half conscious...its annoying..because i want to sleep everyday around 4pm...and feel a tired that is like deathly tired...that has been my main on-going issue.......

[dalsaan]

I take 3 magnesium citrate capsuls evernight...but i am still yet to have a normal sleep...i was always tired on paxil..and during tapering and now...i have the paxil sleep still...where i am sleeping..dreaming..but still half conscious...its annoying..because i want to sleep everyday around 4pm...and feel a tired that is like deathly tired...that has been my main on-going issue.......

As I mentioned in your thread I have this half awake, half asleep thing too. I get deeper sleep with a mix of taurine and magnesium. Straight magnesium doesn't work for me.

[compsports]

 

I have had a hellish month of insomnia, and crying spells due to using sleeping pills and benzos. They don't work on me anymore. It seems that my gaba receptors have become desensitized or something. Most recent experience was with Sonata, which was awful. It gave me the worst suicidal thoughts and drowsiness that lasted all day. I felt worse after using Sonata than not getting any sleep at all last night. None. Even after taking 2 mg of Ativan.

 

So, I saw my Psych today, and she thinks that Mirtazipine is the answer for my anxiety and sleeplessness.  My nerves feel like they are shot to shreds. I need to stabilize and sleep. She suggested I start with half of the lowest dose nightly. She seems to think that I can do this for two weeks and then cut the pill in half for a week and just stop.

 

Please need feedback asap.  Thank you.

  

Hi Lilu,

 

I definitely understand the desperation but since Mirtazipine is an AD, it might not be as easy to stop as the psych doctor thinks it is even at a low dose.   Still, as a rescue med, it might be what you need to get over the hump.

 

This thread might be useful:

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=76103.0

 

Have you tried all the OTC solutions like Tryptophan, 5htp, melatonin, valerian, etc.?   Swanson Vitamins has a 365 money back guarantee and will even pay shipping if you return an item as an FYI.

I understand desperation as well but why you would consider an AD is beyond me. Have you tried any supplements? I would do a patient trial and error on those before an AD, even if it was only proposed for a short time.

 

Dalsaan

 

Dalsaan,

 

In the past, I would have reacted the same way if someone had proposed going back on ADs on a short term basis for insomnia.   But after experiencing severe physical and mental deterioration from lack of sleep, I definitely understand.   At that point, one has lost the will and patience to do an extended trial of an OTC remedy when you can barely make it through a day.   As a result, when a doctor is offering a med, it is very appealing.

 

The only reason I haven't gone that route is when I previously tried Elavil and Trazadone as sleep remedies thanks to friends, I had horrific hangovers the next day and couldn't stay awake.  Kind of defeated the purpose.   But to be honest, if they had improved my functioning, it would have been very tempting to start up on the med again and figured out other ways to counteract the side effects.

 

Speaking of honesty, I don't really feel drug or non drug remedies work on a long term permanent basis to alleviate insomnia.   My goal is to sleep without either one.   But right now, it is the Temazepam that seems to do the best job of stopping the severe slide I get from too many nights of lack of quality sleep.   As long as I don't take it every day, I don't feel it interferes with my overall goal.  It certainly didn't last night as while I still had crappy sleep due to falling asleep prematurely, during the last part of my sleep, I was able to get back to sleep for one last time after waking up after an hour. That wouldn't have happened previously.

 

Lilu, as an FYI, I have started doing a daily dairy of my sleep issues.  It really helps to clarify the issues for me and also greatly relieves anxiety.  Might be worth a shot.

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

CS,

 

We know where you are coming from on this issue and it is not that to which Lilu's question was addressed. She as given up on the remedies that have been suggested, the drugs she has tried are having the opposite effect on her and she wants to sleep. Period. She is convinced that only drugs will do the trick. (If I am wrong she will show up and loudly correct me.) She is asking what we think about using mirt, her psych says she can take it

 

 

for two weeks and then cut the pill in half for a week and just stop.

 

That's what her psych thinks. Those of us who have read the stories of those on mirt have heard differently. She doesn't have time to read Muddle's and miami1's stories on how awful that drug is. It had the opposite effect on both of them.

 

We don't give recommendations on something her psych

 

 

thinks that Mirtazipine is the answer for [for] my anxiety and sleeplessness.

 

We can't, except to tell her to read the stories of those who have been hurt by that drug. Her system is showing signs of autonomic system destabilization with that insomnia and nervousness, it is not a garden variety type of insomnia. Taking a drug such as mirt could throw her in to full-on wd. And taking ANY drugs now that the common sleeper drugs she has tried have stopped working is extremely risky.

 

We are all very sorry this has happened to you Lilu, but I am going to refer back to Meimei's first post after you asked for feedback on taking this nasty drug:

 

 

in my opinion, it has "frying pan to fire" written all over it

 

My opinion too, spoken as one who lived through brutal wd insomnia that lasted in its severe form at least 2 months and has still not completely resolved after 14 months. I am in the phase of "broken sleep" now. It is bliss compared to the other.

 

I hope you can figure out what to do but I certainly feel that more better different drugs are only making it worse. But you are certainly free to try anything you want, we just don't recommend it. Sleep has to heal on its own. The only substitute for it is "rest". Conscious, deliberate rest.

 

If you do decide to try it, please come back here and keep us updated. We are all very concerned for you, look at all the replies to your post.

 

This thread has veered far off topic and these later posts are more appropriate to Lilu's intro, not here. This is not a topic to get drug recommendations.

[Lilu]

Thank you all for your replies. I'm not going to gamble with the Mirtazipine. I hear what you're all saying. Still. I have tried quite a few supplements. I bought Inositol. I doesn't seem to do anything, even if I take 2 650mg capsules at night or during the day.  I have tried 5htp. In the past I tried other supplements like Valerian herb mix. As well as stimulating supplements for fatigue, like Tyrosine, SAMe, phosphotidylserine, etc.  I've never had a supplement or an herb help me.  Inositol did help with anxiety when I was taking Effexor.  I know there are other supplements yet to try, like Magnesium, Ashwagandha, probiotics, etc.  There are so many recommendations of vitamins to take.  It's all very unclear with too many options.  I am exhausted and there is no clear protocol to follow.  Should I also take B-complex, Zinc, Taurine, Glutamine - I read all these help "make" GABA.

 

I am in the state I am in, not just from sleep deprivation, but also from the crying spells that benzos and sleep meds seem to give me.  So yes, I definitely regret reverting back to those.  They helped in the past. And somehow I would get out of the insomnia cycle on my own.  This time it's different.  I've never had this much insomnia and anxiety before.  Shortly after I finished my taper I started experiencing those "cortisol mornings."  I've always been the kind of person who's extremely affected by just ONE night of less than 8 hrs of sleep. But a month and a half of 3-6 hr nights has been unimaginable.  

I'm trying to hang in there.  I just wish I knew exactly what to take in terms of supplements. A friend of mine took himself through a cold-turkey withdrawal with the help of some powerful probiotics.  Even after a decade of poly-drugging, I guess he was one of the lucky ones. Just probiotics and listening to binaural beats anti-anxiety music. Lost 60 lbs in 3 months. Nothing like the kind of withdrawal most of us on here experience.

[compsports]

I have decided to start rereading a book on sleep, called Sound Mind, Sound Sleep by Dr. Barry Krakow, a sleep medicine specialist.    The reason I like it is Dr. Krakow thinks differently from most of his colleagues.   Unfortunately, because of my reading difficulties and due to it being a long book, I had struggled to read it previously.   But I am determined to get through it.

 

Anyway, he does not believe that drugs are the answer to sleep problems.   He also frequently bemoans the fact that many mental health professionals wrongly treat depression as the main symptom with the belief that the sleep problems will resolve when actually, it should be the other way around.

 

One thing he strongly stresses is emotional processing because going to bed with unresolved issues can interfere with the quality of sleep.   He suggests before going to bed, writing down everything that is bugging you and then asking yourself if anything can be done about it.   If not, to gently remind yourself that your day is done and to let things go.

 

His strongest point is he stresses that it is important to focus on sleep quality and that asking someone the number of hours they slept is extremely irrelevant.   He feels that once the quality if superb, someone will get the right number of hours whatever it is.  

 

Based on my personal experience, I find that to be so true.  One of the best nights of sleep I had in years happened at the end of October, 2011 and was for only 5 hours.   But it was like I was living in a different world and experiencing the world in vivid color vs. the black and white that I currently experience with my sleep deprivation.

 

As a result, when I have filled out forms at various sleep doctors' offices, I find the questions on hours of sleep extremely annoying because it is so irrelevant and not helpful.  

 

 

Obviously, not all of it will be applicable to withdrawal and he also talks about sleep breathing difficulties at the end of the book which will not apply to most people on this forum.   However, he does talk about improving nasal congestion which might be helpful.   And there is still alot of valuable information.

 

Last night, I slept for 3.5 hours initially which isn't great but still alot better than what I had previously been doing.   And was able to get back to sleep for 2 hours which had never happened previously without taking something.  Quality was horrible but that might have been due to my nose feeling quite stuffy from all the pizza I ate.  Anyway, it is a start.

 

CS

[brassmonkey]

I ran into this online this morning and thought others might be interested;

 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/health/wellness/what-I-learned-from-an=intense-32-hours-in-a-sleep-lab/ar-AA8817G

 

I had to type that 'cause it wouldn't paste.

 

Later in the article it comes to light that the subject takes Lexapro.  With all her tests coming back negative it seems to me that this may have a lot of bearing on the problem.  Not to dismiss any ones problems but could it be that a lot of the insomnia around here is actually unrecognized sleep?  I know that for me when I have a "bad night" and feel that I have been tossing and awake the entire time, I actually got a pretty good nights sleep physically, but did not recognize the unconscious part and therefore feel that it never happened.  On those nights Monica tells me that I seemed to be sleeping soundly.  Maybe we need to trust some outside observers in these situations and also trust that our bodies really are doing the right thing with out our knowing it.  By removing the secondary anxiety we will probably all sleep better.

[MapleleafGirl]

i am still having the semi conscious sleep for most of the night...my first month off paxil in June and a few weeks into july i had sound sleep and didnt not wake up until 8am...now i am falling asleep fine..but then a few hours into the night i am dreaming but still semi awake...for me i am not anxious or anything like that..its just the stupid paxil sleep..the magnesium helps with the intial falling asleep but then i am half awake most of the night..then tired the next day..and just exhausted by about 4pm and have to nap...cant wait for the day that it all balances out..

[Petunia]

similar topics merged

[compsports]

I ran into this online this morning and thought others might be interested;

 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/health/wellness/what-I-learned-from-an=intense-32-hours-in-a-sleep-lab/ar-AA8817G

 

I had to type that 'cause it wouldn't paste.

 

Later in the article it comes to light that the subject takes Lexapro.  With all her tests coming back negative it seems to me that this may have a lot of bearing on the problem.  Not to dismiss any ones problems but could it be that a lot of the insomnia around here is actually unrecognized sleep?  I know that for me when I have a "bad night" and feel that I have been tossing and awake the entire time, I actually got a pretty good nights sleep physically, but did not recognize the unconscious part and therefore feel that it never happened.  On those nights Monica tells me that I seemed to be sleeping soundly.  Maybe we need to trust some outside observers in these situations and also trust that our bodies really are doing the right thing with out our knowing it.  By removing the secondary anxiety we will probably all sleep better.

A big fat sigh.   Testing someone for sleep apnea with just a home oximetry test is not a good way to to test for the condition as many people with sleep apnea never have significant oxygen desaturations.   Shame on the sleep doctor for not understanding that.

 

Because the person also has hypersomnia, she might have an undiagnosed case of upper airway resistance syndrome which doesn't quite qualify for sleep apnea but can be extremely disruptive to sleep with the mini airflow suffocations and can cause intense sleepiness.   Unfortunately, many sleep medicine specialists consistently miss this diagnosis.  Even though I definitely had an UARs like profile from my recent sleep study, my sleep doctor totally minimized it which sadly wasn't a surprise.

 

Brass Monkey, regarding the points you made, regarding you getting a good night's sleep, my question would be what is your functioning like the next day?  Do you have enough energy to get through the day to accomplish necessary tasks or are you dragging big time feeling like you have a case of chronic fatigue syndrome?   The issue isn't how many hours of sleep but what was your quality like.

 

Also, I think many sleep professionals minimize the sleep complaints of patients and may go by certain data and not look deeply enough to problem solve.   For example, my sleep doc saw all the wonderful slow wave sleep I had from my sleep study and thought I must have slept wonderfully.   What she didn't understand was that ambien had contributed to that and once it wore of as I woke up after a grand total of 2.4 hours, I felt like crap.

 

As my mostly favorite sleep doctor, Barry Krakow says, patients really do know the best about their situations.

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/health/wellness/what-I-learned-from-an=intense-32-hours-in-a-sleep-lab/ar-AA8817G

 

I had to type that 'cause it wouldn't paste.

 

 

 

 

In the post editor window, look for the 'link' icon, click it and then paste your link into that. Or you can use 'ctrl+V' for a straight paste if the right click sub menu does not come up.

[brassmonkey]

The next day I usually put in a nine hour day as a Research Engineer, do household projects and run errands.  I do get a little more tired come evening, but not by much.

 

CW-- I'll try the 'link' icon next time.  'Crtl-V' and the right click menu haven't been doing it.

[compsports]

The next day I usually put in a nine hour day as a Research Engineer, do household projects and run errands.  I do get a little more tired come evening, but not by much.

 

CW-- I'll try the 'link' icon next time.  'Crtl-V' and the right click menu haven't been doing it.

It sounds like you getting good sleep which is fantastic to hear.

[MapleleafGirl]

i am dying for a full nights sleep..its starting to get so irritating..i wanted to scream last night..yet again..that light sleep...dreaming but can hear the outside noise..my hubby breathing..every little sound...then i woke up at 2:30 and did not fall back asleep until 3:45...must have had a little deeper sleep..but i am always exhauseted the next day..its only 11:41am..and i need to go and have a nap...lucky i work from home...so i can do that..but i have zero energy...fatigue and the crappy sleep has been my main issue..while tapering off paxil for the 4 years..and now 7 .5 months off its still going on....i dont drink caffine or anything that would cause me not to sleep..its that stupid freaking paxil....

[dalsaan]

i am dying for a full nights sleep..its starting to get so irritating..i wanted to scream last night..yet again..that light sleep...dreaming but can hear the outside noise..my hubby breathing..every little sound...then i woke up at 2:30 and did not fall back asleep until 3:45...must have had a little deeper sleep..but i am always exhauseted the next day..its only 11:41am..and i need to go and have a nap...lucky i work from home...so i can do that..but i have zero energy...fatigue and the crappy sleep has been my main issue..while tapering off paxil for the 4 years..and now 7 .5 months off its still going on....i dont drink caffine or anything that would cause me not to sleep..its that stupid freaking paxil....

I hear you. I said a similar thing in my thread yesterday. It's so wearing not having restorative sleep. I'm going to try the cal/mag combo and alternate it with my usual taurine/mag combo to see if I can improve my sleep time and quality

 

Take care

 

D

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

CW-- I'll try the 'link' icon next time.  'Crtl-V' and the right click menu haven't been doing it.

 

Always use link icon in editor, pasting links doesn't work and if you are using IE, forget it, we are having a problem with it. I use firefox because I don't like chrome and I forget site is still broken with IE. You cannot quote using it either, the window is just dead if you click inside it.

[WatchingTV426]

Hi everyone, 

 

Is there a particular thread for people who have insomnia caused *by* their antidepressants rather than w/d? I just went back on my AD (yesterday) after a miserable withdrawal experience following a too-fast taper, and so my cortisol-induced w/d insomnia will presumably eventually turn back into my ever-torturous Zoloft-induced insomnia and I'm hoping to find some support. Thanks! 

 

WatchingTV 

[UnfoldingSky]

Hi WatchingTV, I am sure it's okay if you post here, many people have also had adverse drug reactions and wound up with sleep issues from them too.  Sorry to hear sleep is an issue for you.

[UnfoldingSky]

Probably for the last year and a half to two years I have been having sleep issues.  I have had serious issues with fatigue for a long time, which are iatrogenic.  I used to sleep way too much every night, now I am all over the place, stay up at night, can't seem to go to sleep at a proper hour, can't stay up on no sleep to reset this.  One "night" I'll sleep like twelve hours the next five, the next ten, the next three, the next twelve again...It makes no sense at all, except that I am sure I am quite sleep deprived.

 

The test I had done caught that I was barely sleeping but didn't figure out why.  I am convinced this falls under chronic fatigue (caused by drugs) but the suggestion was "depression" and that I have another test done, which I can't do now as I have another health problem that makes that not possible to do easily. 

 

The fatigue is turning into a major issue too, I can get very little done like this. 

 

I find if I sleep in a dark place I can also sleep way longer, and if I don't I am not sleeping deeply.

 

I also for a long time stopped having dreams or at least recalling them, which I've heard is a sign of serious sleep deprivation.  Lately I can recall some, after starting a herb that is supposed to help chronic fatigue which ironically only seems to marginally help with this but helps cog fog.  I've read it helps with dreaming so that at least adds up.  Still there is a strange quality to these dreams, like a "flat" feeling, they usually aren't negative but they seem to lack depth...I can't explain it any better than that but it creeps me out.  Even in severe withdrawal I had positive dreams and I felt very "in" the dreams, like I really had left the waking world for the night.  Now it's like I can't even "leave", like there is only one state of consciousness.  I don't like it at all.

 

The odd night I will feel well rested when I get up.  But I find within a few hours I feel sleepy again. 

 

I have no idea what all of this indicates, if it's "just" drug-related sleep problems or falls under the category of a known sleep issue.  if anyone has ideas that fall outside of what a standard sleep study might catch I'd love to hear them.  I don't have apnea apparently, and I forget what else I don't have.  Whatever sleep studies screen for (if they are reliable. )

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

Well, I am having kind of the same thing going on but I don't get the long blocks of time you do USky, and I'll have to make a note of my dreams, I hadn't noticed any particular quality to them.

 

I am doing the 'broken sleep' thing. Every 2 hours on the even hours only (it seems) I wake up. The problem comes when I decide that at the 4 am wake up I think I have had enough sleep and I get up and get on the comp. Sometimes I get sleepy again and go back for more, sometimes it makes me sleepy too early in the evening. That too early in the evening is bothersome and I feel tired during the day too. Sometimes I can do a nap, sometimes not. The tired feeling is keeping me from wanting to get back to the gym.

 

Last night I downed 200mg mag glycinate and 500mg taurine. Fell asleep after 8p, woke a bit before 10, now it's after 2am and I am out of bed and on the comp. I notice I forgot to log off the site at 10p. So the mag might have had an effect (I got a 4 hr block, unusual) but it is too soon to tell. I'll have to remember to take the same dose for a week and note any patterns. Now I have to get off the comp and see if I can get back to sleep. At least I can fall asleep pretty easily and I get enough sleep all told, it's just that it is broken up.

 

I just noticed Dalsaan said above she is using cal/mag. I have been using straight mag all this time because I read in our mag thread that adding calcium kind of negated the calming properties of mag as a 'calcium channel blocker'. But I think I could add it in now that I am not having the brutal wd insomnia and I don't have palpitations anymore. But I am not going to add it till I find out plain mag doesn't do anything.

[compsports]

CW,

 

As I was finishing my nearly 4 year taper from psych meds and before I was diagnosed with apnea, I started having narcoleptic like issues to this day that haven't abated.  If I stick to a mostly a paleo type diet, I have a chance of getting through the day without just one 20 minute nap although that is dicey. 

 

Even before I started psych meds, I was one of those folks who went to bed and got up earlier than most people.   Interestingly, other family members have similar type patterns.

 

I feel being on the psych meds did something to worsen my sleep cycle which is now complicated by sleep apnea and not being able to stay asleep on the machine for any consistent amount of time and get good quality sleep.   And to complicate things further, I think nasal congestion issues are playing a role but fortunately, I think I have a great ENT and hopefully Nasonex will help with this.  If not, then surgery.

 

The early in the evening pattern for me wouldn't be so intolerable if I was getting good quality sleep.   Heck, at this point, if I fell asleep at 6pm and woke up at midnight raring to go, that would be fine with me as I would then work on shifting the body clock.    But right now, when the quality sucks, that is tough.

 

I hope you find some type of mag combination that works.   I doubt it would for me as even when I take a microdose during the day, it is activating and yesterday, I suspect caused a blood pressure spike.

 

It is very frustrating to say the least.

 

CS

 

PS - When I take a moderately paced twenty minute walk, I feel extremely drugged afterwards.   Very frustrating and no answers from doctors.

[compsports]

Probably for the last year and a half to two years I have been having sleep issues.  I have had serious issues with fatigue for a long time, which are iatrogenic.  I used to sleep way too much every night, now I am all over the place, stay up at night, can't seem to go to sleep at a proper hour, can't stay up on no sleep to reset this.  One "night" I'll sleep like twelve hours the next five, the next ten, the next three, the next twelve again...It makes no sense at all, except that I am sure I am quite sleep deprived.

 

The test I had done caught that I was barely sleeping but didn't figure out why.  I am convinced this falls under chronic fatigue (caused by drugs) but the suggestion was "depression" and that I have another test done, which I can't do now as I have another health problem that makes that not possible to do easily. 

 

The fatigue is turning into a major issue too, I can get very little done like this. 

 

I find if I sleep in a dark place I can also sleep way longer, and if I don't I am not sleeping deeply.

 

I also for a long time stopped having dreams or at least recalling them, which I've heard is a sign of serious sleep deprivation.  Lately I can recall some, after starting a herb that is supposed to help chronic fatigue which ironically only seems to marginally help with this but helps cog fog.  I've read it helps with dreaming so that at least adds up.  Still there is a strange quality to these dreams, like a "flat" feeling, they usually aren't negative but they seem to lack depth...I can't explain it any better than that but it creeps me out.  Even in severe withdrawal I had positive dreams and I felt very "in" the dreams, like I really had left the waking world for the night.  Now it's like I can't even "leave", like there is only one state of consciousness.  I don't like it at all.

 

The odd night I will feel well rested when I get up.  But I find within a few hours I feel sleepy again. 

 

I have no idea what all of this indicates, if it's "just" drug-related sleep problems or falls under the category of a known sleep issue.  if anyone has ideas that fall outside of what a standard sleep study might catch I'd love to hear them.  I don't have apnea apparently, and I forget what else I don't have.  Whatever sleep studies screen for (if they are reliable. )

US,

 

Why did they say you didn't have apnea?  Did they mention RERA events which don't qualify for sleep apnea but still can be disruptive to sleep because of airflow restrictions?   Many sleep labs don't screen for it or if they do, it is still minimized by doctors.   This may not be applicable to yoru situation but I just wanted to make sure.

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

CS,

 

Your note above to me (I am not going to quote because I don't like long blocks of quotes running down a page) describes something that is very odd and you have repeated it in several places. None of it seems to make any sense. You have now added a bit of info I think you have stated before but not in those terms: that brisk walking gives you a reaction I have never heard of :

 

 

When I take a moderately paced twenty minute walk, I feel extremely drugged afterwards.

 

What the heck? If I dissect this physiologically I am mystified. Exercise increases o₂ intake and speeds up circulation to the various muscles of the body, hormones are released, yada yada and your body is acting like you have given it something sedating?

 

Be very interesting for you to be in an exercise lab and hooked up with an apparatus to draw bloods at intervals and see what the heck your blood panels look like......

 

What I am doing, now that I feel 'recovered', is sort of like resetting my body back to how I used to be before wd last year with a few limitations: minimal amts of caffeine, NO artificial sweetener and still no OTC drugs. I might have had 5 advil all told since last year. I eat whatever I want, exercise as hard or as little as I want. I still try to sleep my eight though and keep to a regular schedule except for what I noted above. I am also weaning myself off the f.lux color temperature program on the comp.

 

So after I went back to bed again last night after waking at 2am, I slept from a bit after 3 till a little after 7 and woke feeling 'awake' and not sleepy!

 

I will continue the mag+taurine and see how it goes.

[compsports]

CW,

 

On a related note, I had a metabolic panel and thyroid tests and they were normal.  What else should I ask to be tested for besides the exercise lab tests?   The exercise issue has happened repeatedly and not just one time.

 

I do have metabolic issues as any moderate to high carb foods cause higher than normal blood sugar spikes.   But even on days when I have limited my carbs, exercise still causes the feeling of being drugged.

 

I am glad you seem to be righting your situation.

CS,

 

Your note above to me (I am not going to quote because I don't like long blocks of quotes running down a page) describes something that is very odd and you have repeated it in several places. None of it seems to make any sense. You have now added a bit of info I think you have stated before but not in those terms: that brisk walking gives you a reaction I have never heard of :

 

 

When I take a moderately paced twenty minute walk, I feel extremely drugged afterwards.

 

What the heck? If I dissect this physiologically I am mystified. Exercise increases o₂ intake and speeds up circulation to the various muscles of the body, hormones are released, yada yada and your body is acting like you have given it something sedating?

 

Be very interesting for you to be in an exercise lab and hooked up with an apparatus to draw bloods at intervals and see what the heck your blood panels look like......

 

What I am doing, now that I feel 'recovered', is sort of like resetting my body back to how I used to be before wd last year with a few limitations: minimal amts of caffeine, NO artificial sweetener and still no OTC drugs. I might have had 5 advil all told since last year. I eat whatever I want, exercise as hard or as little as I want. I still try to sleep my eight though and keep to a regular schedule except for what I noted above. I am also weaning myself off the f.lux color temperature program on the comp.

 

So after I went back to bed again last night after waking at 2am, I slept from a bit after 3 till a little after 7 and woke feeling 'awake' and not sleepy!

 

I will continue the mag+taurine and see how it goes.

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

That's what I am saying, CS. Trying to find out why you react to carbs and exercise (I am mainly thinking about the exercise) the way you do would be difficult. Getting (and paying!) for a test involving serial blood testing before, during and after exercising is something I have never heard of. And would venous blood be sufficient or would it have to include arterial and should you have to be hooked up with a cath for urinalysis too? And what about basic tests for lung function?

 

Ahhhh, I overthink stuff.......

 

You know, I just noticed something. You were on a lot of drugs we normally see as very activating. Could be that your basic sleep architecture has never really been given a chance to settle itself without attempts to manipulate it via CPAP. And leaving the PAP aside, it might just not be healed yet period. Each person, their drug history and their physiology is unique.

 

It may just be a case that your body, when you exercise, overreacts to the need for rest afterwards. What do I know, I don't know anything it seems.

[compsports]

That's what I am saying, CS. Trying to find out why you react to carbs and exercise (I am mainly thinking about the exercise) the way you do would be difficult. Getting (and paying!) for a test involving serial blood testing before, during and after exercising is something I have never heard of. And would venous blood be sufficient or would it have to include arterial and should you have to be hooked up with a cath for urinalysis too?

 

Ahhhh, I overthink stuff.......

CS,

 

I have been trying to figure that out for years and none of the sleep doctors or PCP have any clue why.  It is very frustrating.

 

I suspect the metabolic issues are from the poor sleep but the question is how does this cycle get fixed?  Out of extreme desperation, which I might have mentioned, I tried taking Nuvigil to stay awake and it didn't help.

 

Sleep doc and I do agree it isn't narcolepsy but it still pretty much leaves me hanging big time.

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

Did you catch my other edit about lung function tests?

 

That's what I mean, you have to be hooked to machines in situ (while exercising and even while trying to sleep) to really get the low down on what is happening while it is happening. No doc would ever do it nor would you want to pay for it.

 

So they do the bloods and try to determine, from them and the metabolites they might find and try to extrapolate that to what they know about normal human physiology. All done after the fact, not while it is happening. It seems that it is just something you have to live with and I hope you stumble on a solution or it happens to right itself all on its own.

 

Any research labs in your area? Anyone researching sleep physiology you could be a subject for?

 

And it may be a type of narcolepsy that  has never been seen before, chemically induced mutation as a result of all those activating meds. I'd never touch another one if I was you.....

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

I am going to veer OT a bit here so skip over if you don't want to read.

 

When I was in my 20's I had a RN friend who was working at the Uni hosp in SD and she hooked me up with some reproductive medicine studies (I'd had a tubal which qualified me for that) and they gave you $$$ and a meal afterwards. No eating, drinking OR smoking after midnight and for the 8 hours I was in that hosp bed hooked up to an IV which would give me a drug(s) and allow them to draw blood every 2 hours. And my friend had to come in A LOT to make sure I did not fall asleep. Boy, did I ever need all that caffeine AND nicotine I had a habit of consuming. What was interesting is the 'no sleep' prohibition: apparently they felt it would affect their results. Sleep was so compelling that entire day, several times I know I nodded off in the middle of trying to crochet something. I only did 2 studies.

 

So I know studies are done where they take blood periodically. It is just trying to find one where they are studying YOUR particular problem is the rub.

[brassmonkey]

CW--- f.lux color temp program.  Please tell me more, I think my DW Monica might benefit from this.

[compsports]

I am going to veer OT a bit here so skip over if you don't want to read.

 

When I was in my 20's I had a RN friend who was working at the Uni hosp in SD and she hooked me up with some reproductive medicine studies (I'd had a tubal which qualified me for that) and they gave you $$$ and a meal afterwards. No eating, drinking OR smoking after midnight and for the 8 hours I was in that hosp bed hooked up to an IV which would give me a drug(s) and allow them to draw blood every 2 hours. And my friend had to come in A LOT to make sure I did not fall asleep. Boy, did I ever need all that caffeine AND nicotine I had a habit of consuming. What was interesting is the 'no sleep' prohibition: apparently they felt it would affect their results. Sleep was so compelling that entire day, several times I know I nodded off in the middle of trying to crochet something. I only did 2 studies.

 

So I know studies are done where they take blood periodically. It is just trying to find one where they are studying YOUR particular problem is the rub.

CW,

 

The NIH is the biggest game in town in my area.   I looked at their site and didn't see anything but I can certainly keep checking.

 

Probably better for me to focus on low carb diet to see if that helps prevent the premature sleep attacks.   Unfortunately, what happens is I get intense carb cravings and end up eating so many to make up for the deprivation which starts the viscous cycle again.    But perhaps if I just eat enough to satisfy the craving, that would help.

 

Anyway, my point is I have a better chance of solving the problem myself vs. depending on any studies.

[compsports]

That's what I am saying, CS. Trying to find out why you react to carbs and exercise (I am mainly thinking about the exercise) the way you do would be difficult. Getting (and paying!) for a test involving serial blood testing before, during and after exercising is something I have never heard of. And would venous blood be sufficient or would it have to include arterial and should you have to be hooked up with a cath for urinalysis too? And what about basic tests for lung function?

 

Ahhhh, I overthink stuff.......

 

You know, I just noticed something. You were on a lot of drugs we normally see as very activating. Could be that your basic sleep architecture has never really been given a chance to settle itself without attempts to manipulate it via CPAP. And leaving the PAP aside, it might just not be healed yet period. Each person, their drug history and their physiology is unique.

 

It may just be a case that your body, when you exercise, overreacts to the need for rest afterwards. What do I know, I don't know anything it seems.

CW,

 

Since I have metabolic issues with carb sensitivity and abnormal blood sugar spikes, I suspect exercise is part of the same package.   If the co payment isn't too high, I could go to my PCP and complain about the exercise issue to see what she would say.  I would just have to keep my expectations low.

 

I do suspect my sleep architecture has not healed and adding pap therapy doesn't help.   But my sleep breathing issues have to be treated as my blood pressure spikes when I don't use the machine.   Hopefully, the Nasonex the ENT prescribed will open up my nasal passages and will cause me to tolerate the pap machine better.   Otherwise, I will have to have surgery which I am not looking forward to but I can't continue with business as usual.

[UnfoldingSky]

 

Probably for the last year and a half to two years I have been having sleep issues.  I have had serious issues with fatigue for a long time, which are iatrogenic.  I used to sleep way too much every night, now I am all over the place, stay up at night, can't seem to go to sleep at a proper hour, can't stay up on no sleep to reset this.  One "night" I'll sleep like twelve hours the next five, the next ten, the next three, the next twelve again...It makes no sense at all, except that I am sure I am quite sleep deprived.

 

The test I had done caught that I was barely sleeping but didn't figure out why.  I am convinced this falls under chronic fatigue (caused by drugs) but the suggestion was "depression" and that I have another test done, which I can't do now as I have another health problem that makes that not possible to do easily. 

 

The fatigue is turning into a major issue too, I can get very little done like this. 

 

I find if I sleep in a dark place I can also sleep way longer, and if I don't I am not sleeping deeply.

 

I also for a long time stopped having dreams or at least recalling them, which I've heard is a sign of serious sleep deprivation.  Lately I can recall some, after starting a herb that is supposed to help chronic fatigue which ironically only seems to marginally help with this but helps cog fog.  I've read it helps with dreaming so that at least adds up.  Still there is a strange quality to these dreams, like a "flat" feeling, they usually aren't negative but they seem to lack depth...I can't explain it any better than that but it creeps me out.  Even in severe withdrawal I had positive dreams and I felt very "in" the dreams, like I really had left the waking world for the night.  Now it's like I can't even "leave", like there is only one state of consciousness.  I don't like it at all.

 

The odd night I will feel well rested when I get up.  But I find within a few hours I feel sleepy again. 

 

I have no idea what all of this indicates, if it's "just" drug-related sleep problems or falls under the category of a known sleep issue.  if anyone has ideas that fall outside of what a standard sleep study might catch I'd love to hear them.  I don't have apnea apparently, and I forget what else I don't have.  Whatever sleep studies screen for (if they are reliable. )

US,

 

Why did they say you didn't have apnea?  Did they mention RERA events which don't qualify for sleep apnea but still can be disruptive to sleep because of airflow restrictions?   Many sleep labs don't screen for it or if they do, it is still minimized by doctors.   This may not be applicable to yoru situation but I just wanted to make sure.

 

 

Hi comp,

 

Thanks for your reply, I know you know a lot about sleep issues and I appreciate the time you take to answer. They said I had no apnea based on the sleep study.  I don't know what RERA stands for.  I know I barely slept and they acknowledged that but went through a list of physical causes for insomnia and claimed I didn't have them.  However, I was also told the test was not a great one because the results were so poor (being as though I barely slept; I was not comfortable in the place I was staying and that definitely had something to do with it) so it would be best to do another. 

 

I am not sure how they then can try to claim it's depression, if the test went so badly.  Argh.

 

Some of my sleep problem is due to people in my house not being quiet enough at night. But I am sure it's not the full problem as it's still an issue if I go somewhere quieter to sleep.  It's starting to scare me how bad this is getting. 

[compsports]

Hi US,

 

RERAs stand for respiratory event related arousals.   Do you have a copy of our sleep study report because if they were scored, it should be mentioned.   But even if it isn't, it might not hurt to call and ask to speak to someone about that.  I have asked my question of the head sleep tech as she is the one who does the initial interpretation.   But each sleep center is different as to who you ask.

 

Here is more information on Upper Airway Resistance Syndrome in which RERAs take place.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_airway_resistance_syndrome

 

And by the way, many people with UARS were misdiagnosed with depression as an FYI.   May not be applicable in your case but I wanted to mention this.   Unfortunately, depression is blamed on any sleep issue in which there isn't an explanation.   Sickening as heck.

 

I would definitely repeat the test, particularly if you think UARS is applicable.  Of course, you would have to make sure a lab tested for it but first things first.

[Meimeiquest]

Hi US,

 

I wonder if your cortisol patterns haven't recovered yet from your taper? Just an idea. There is a new book out called the Adrenal Reset Diet that is about much more than diet, but pretty readable. Has a big section on sleep. But I am quite sure there aren't any magic bullets

 

I don't dream normally. It can be probably from a million things, especially drugs, but it is considered a symptom of pyrolle disorder, an alternative medicine diagnosis, if you want to look into it.

 

Sweet dreams!