Jools44: badly managed reinstatement of mirtazapine

[Jools44]

@Altostrata no I don't think so, maybe it was to do with the vaccine or I picked up a virus?

 

I don't feel any different after taking mirtazepine. Only the RLS sometimes and an uptick in the tinnitus but not much. 

 

Sleep wise it's the same pattern, takes me a while to get off and always awake by 5am. I can go a week sleeping like this and then suddenly no sleep for 1, 2 or sometimes 3 nights and then things settle down again. It's a fairly regular pattern now. 

[Altostrata]

You might try 22mg mirtazapine and see if there's any difference.

[Jools44]

16 hours ago, Altostrata said:

You might try 22mg mirtazapine and see if there's any difference.

@Altostrata what do you think that might achieve?

 

I haven't felt right since I updosed so dramatically, is it possible this drug is harming more than anything now? 

 

I slept about 6 hours last night but actually feel worse today. Lots of tears, intrusive thoughts (mainly about people who have wronged me). Ears are bad, tinntius loud. Most worrying is I've been out driving and made two  bad errors of judgement. No harm has come to anybody but I just don't feel like I'm processing things right at all. Yesterday, I felt better than this. 

I have started the omega threes and they've given me bad guts so I'm dropping that now, but I'm not convinced that explains my current state. 

[Altostrata]

The increased tinnitus and leg symptom after taking mirtazapine may be effects of the drug.

[Greatful]

@Jools44

Stopping by to give you a hug🤗

It is always a guessing game, what is causing what or is it just the way it is.

I was reading in Recovery and Renewal by Baylissa  Frederick (really good book have you heard of her?)  if we take some thing like supplement  and we feel worse. was it the supplement or were you just going back into a wave and vice versa,  did the supplement help or was I going into a window.  What works for one my not work for another.   There is no quick fix.  Only time and patience.

It's probably good to stop the fish oil for right now.  You can try again later and see how you do then..

I can totally relate to the driving and making mistakes.  I stop at a red light and then went, I suppose I was treating it like a stop sign.  Did this twice.  

Hang in there.  All you have to do today is make it to your pillow tonight.  Tomorrow is a new day and who knows it could be better.❤️ 

Always remember your brain is healing every second of the day.  The symptoms you feel are the proof of that.  It's doing it's job to get things back homeostasis.  

 

[Jools44]

@Greatful ah thanks so much for that. It doesn't feel like I'm getting there and my ears are very shouty tonight. I wish I could just accept this situation but I really struggle to. 

 

I have heard of Baylissa Frederick and been on her website. I've not read her book but I totally get the thing about supplements and also other things that you're not sure were the cause of a wave or not. Its very confusing. I'm beginning to think there is no pattern and that it's almost all down to waves. 

 

The omega is being ditched. I have a healthy diet anyway so hopefully that will provide the nutrition I need to heal. 

 

How are you doing now? I hope things are a little easier for you too ❤️

 

 

 

[Malbec37]

@Jools44Just stopping by to offer you my support....you're doing all the right things and I think a healthy diet is the best thing that we can give ourselves in WD....oh and LOTS of time in nature especially walking through forests as this is very healing for the nervous system...going barefoot even better when walking in forests but you might get called a hippy now and again lol but that's ok, whatever works right!?

[Jools44]

53 minutes ago, Malbec37 said:

@Jools44Just stopping by to offer you my support....you're doing all the right things and I think a healthy diet is the best thing that we can give ourselves in WD....oh and LOTS of time in nature especially walking through forests as this is very healing for the nervous system...going barefoot even better when walking in forests but you might get called a hippy now and again lol but that's ok, whatever works right!?

Hi @Malbec37 👋 thank you for stopping by, I really appreciate it.

I love being out in nature. I really miss walking my dog first thing in the morning, when everybody else is in bed. It was my favourite time of day. I still get out but not as often as I'd like at the moment with the short days and all. I actually considered hugging a tree not long back, which would have been a first! But I chickened out 😅 maybe next time. Nothing wrong with the hippy life, WD brings a lot of things in to perspective, what's really important in life and what really isn't. 

[Jools44]

@Kiasofia I think you're based in Norway aren't you? I don't suppose you would know if mirtazepine is available in liquid form there at all?

 

TIA ☺️

[Kiasofia]

Yes, I am. I did a search and didn't find liquid listed at the pharmacy, but did find orally disintegrating tablets (smeltetabletter) that can be used to make your own liquid. People have also made liquid out of the regular tablets.

 

https://www.apotek1.no/produkter/remeron-s-30-mg-smeltetabletter-blisterpakning-endose-96stk-11050p

 

(available in 15mg, 30mg and 45mg)

 

how-to-make-a-liquid-from-tablets-or-capsules

 

Edited January 26, 2022 by Kiasofia

[Jools44]

@Kiasofia thank you for checking. I guess the other option I have other than making a liquid is to buy some medical scales and weigh the tablet out? 

[Kiasofia]

Yes:

Tips for tapering off mirtazapine (Remeron)

Using a digital scale to measure doses

[Jools44]

Just a quick update on my situation. 

 

Many of my symptoms have settled down although not resolved completely. 

 

The tinntius is still there but not as loud. The hyperacusis has improved greatly but again has not fully resolved. 

 

Sleep is still very erratic. I can go 10 days and sleep every night, although length of time asleep varies from 4 hours to 5 or maybe 6 on rare occasions. Then it deteriorates over the course of a few days and then dries up completely for a night or two. This is the ongoing pattern and my biggest issue but feels like Windows and waves effect. Still wondering if perimenopause is impacting as I get very warm at night, no sweats though. 

 

Neuroemtions are rare now. 

 

Appetite normal (for mirtazepine). 

 

Mood stable but flat (neither happy nor sad). 

 

Still on 22.5mg mirt and take magnesium at night. 

 

Still off coffee and alcohol. 

 

Am back at work although I can't work when my sleep stops as I drive for a living (and also feel fairly rough). 

 

If my sleep settles down completely then that would be a big relief, is that likely? 

 

 

[Vasherr]

@Jools44 I just wanted to drop by and say it's very good to hear that You are stabilising My fingers are crossed for us all in hope to get better!

[Malbec37]

Hi @Jools44sounds like you’re doing well overall! 
 

sleep is an issue with mirt WD. For example I have been mostly very stable recently and sleep good but then suddenly I felt more wavey and suddenly I was struggling to fall asleep again and not getting good sleep. I had not reduced and nothing was different…I thought it might be to do with too much exercise but who knows!? I think it was just a mild wave that can come for no reason and has now subsided so sleeping better again 

 

We just need to ride it out as best we can 

 

I am reducing tonight from 11 to 10mg…time to hold on tight!

 

Malbec 

[Jools44]

@Malbec37 thank you and yes I'm doing better overall. I've been on this dose for 4 months and was hoping my sleep would be more settled by now but my CNS had a lot of change over a short period of time so I guess it's still recovering.

 

Can I ask you how you are tapering? With tables or liquid? I'm currently on the liquid but may have to move on to tablets at some point and just wondering how people manage to taper. 

 

Pleased to hear you're doing well. Slow and steady as they say, good luck with the drop! 

[Malbec37]

@Jools44yes I taper with tablets. I just decide what my next dose will be and then measure that dose precisely using the Gemini scale. Works well enough and I can’t tolerate liquids and won’t be trying again. I always use the same brand tablets also 

 

Two days in and feeling fine although my CNS won’t have registered the drop yet 

[Jools44]

@Malbec37 I'm still struggling with sleep despite being on the same dose now for 4 months - admittedly after a monumental dose cock up.

 

Do you find the CBD oil helps with sleep and what kind of product are you using? 

 

I used to notice the WD at about the 4 day mark when I was tapering. Nothing terrible to be fair and it settled after a week. 

[Malbec37]

@Jools44TBH my sleep has not been quite right since I started withdrawal 2.5 years ago. It does improve, especially when I hold, but reductions can play havoc….in your case it does sound like overall there have been improvements whilst holding but sleep still an issue. It’s without doubt the main problematic symptom of mirt WD and acceptance is important for me (not easy I know as there’s nothing better than a good night sleep)….when things are bad for me I do use prescription sleeping tablets but needs must 

 

I don’t find CBD useful for sleep really but we’re all different. I find it helpful to keep me feeling calm especially after poor sleep and needing to go to work when wired 

 

I use a full spectrum product from a company called Provacan who seem good but there’s a lot to choose from 

 

Yes I expect the WD to kick in soon, I can feel it, my tinnitus has increased and feeling a little edgy and sleep not great last 2 nights 

[Jools44]

@Malbec37 did you have sleep issues before you started mirtazepine or is it just coming off of it that you're experiencing issues? I've chronically been a bad sleeper and have slept better on mirt than I had for the 15 years prior to being on it. My reasons for coming off were the weight gain and concerns about building tolerance (and just not wanting to be on such a powerful drug forever). 

[Malbec37]

@Jools44no I didn’t have problems sleeping when I was settled on mirt…I’ve been on it 8 years and mostly every night I popped my 30mg I slept well and never had problems 

 

I did have sleep issues when I was depressed in the past but that was very acute insomnia mixed with anxiety 

 

I have never experienced sleep problems in my life like I do now but I know it’s only temporary and due to WD and that helps me find a way forward 

 

For some people in life sleep is an issue, my mum is one…it comes and goes and can be very elusive. With her it’s definitely linked to anxiety and overthinking 

 

I wanted off mirt as I’ve been on various AD’s for almost 20 years and I’m only 40! I just feel ready for and want a life free of medication 

[Jools44]

@Malbec37 yes you'll be fine once you're free of this medication. Insomnia seems to be an issue for most people getting off these drugs regardless of which one it is.

 

My only concern is whether, because I had sleep issues to start with, my sleep will be even more negatively affected once I'm off. However I did read one persons success story and they slept better once off, even though they'd had issues with sleep before going on and when withdrawing from mirtazapine, so you just can't tell. 

 

My dad also had chronic insomnia, as did his mother, so there's some hereditary link whether it's physiological or associated with anxiety etc. 

 

I think I could have found ways to optimise my sleep though, without the need for drugs. But the horse has already bolted on that one!! 

[Jools44]

Can anybody help?

 

There is a supply issue with the liquid mirtazepine here in the UK. I am only just stabilising on it 😔 so dreading having to swap. 

 

I still have about 3 weeks left of my current bottle so can anybody suggest a way I can minimise any disruption by slowly swapping on to the orodispersible tablets. I've seen the how to make a homemade liquid instructions, I'm just wondering if it would be sensible to use the liquid I have left to slowly move on to OD? 

 

TIA

[Jools44]

@Malbec37 when you say you couldn't tolerate the liquid mirtazepine (both homemade and product) what do you mean?

 

I use the proper  liquid prep but I don't find it lasts the full 6 weeks it's supposed to and am convinced I start getting withdrawals at about week 4/5.

 

I am wondering if I wouldn't be better using tablets and weighing it out. 

[ChessieCat]

4 hours ago, Jools44 said:

I am wondering if I wouldn't be better using tablets and weighing it out.

 

Post #1 of this topic explains how to get non standard doses.

 

It also discusses making your own liquid.

 

tips-for-tapering-off-mirtazapine-remeron

 

Edited February 9, 2022 by ChessieCat

[Jools44]

7 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

 

Post #1 of this topic explains how to get non standard doses.

 

It also discusses making your own liquid.

 

tips-for-tapering-off-mirtazapine-remeron

 

Thank you for that info

[Jools44]

Hi @Altostrata the last couple of nights I've had a weird reaction after taking the mirtazepine liquid.

 

I've had adrenalin rushes and raised HR and just not felt right. I did sleep for 4 - 5 hours, Felt okay before taking it.

 

This is new as I've never felt any difference after taking the med before now and I haven't changed the dose. 

 

It's a relatively new bottle, opened 7 days ago. The manufacturer is having production issues too which makes me a bit suspicious. 

 

Is there any anecdotal evidence of home made liquid/weighing tablets  being more reliable than the prescription liquid preps? I don't find it lasts to the broach by date and noticed this whilst I was tapering last year. 

 

I really just want some stability and wonder if I'd be better off making my own, especially if there is a production issues. 

 

TIA

[Ripley]

15 hours ago, Jools44 said:

Can anybody help?

 

There is a supply issue with the liquid mirtazepine here in the UK. I am only just stabilising on it 😔 so dreading having to swap. 

 

I still have about 3 weeks left of my current bottle so can anybody suggest a way I can minimise any disruption by slowly swapping on to the orodispersible tablets. I've seen the how to make a homemade liquid instructions, I'm just wondering if it would be sensible to use the liquid I have left to slowly move on to OD? 

 

TIA

 

Hi @Jools44

 

I was concerned to see you mention a supply issue with the liquid mirt here in the UK as I'm also on this. Can I ask where you got this info. and do you have any more info. as to why this might be so?

 

It's probably worth checking that we're talking about the Rosemont liquid? Whereabouts are you based?

 

Just by the way, I haven't personally found that it loses potency before the 6 week mark. I would also be loathe to switch at this stage unless it was absolutely unavailable, which I'm hoping is not the case!

 

[Jools44]

13 minutes ago, Ripley said:

 

Hi @Jools44

 

I was concerned to see you mention a supply issue with the liquid mirt here in the UK as I'm also on this. Can I ask where you got this info. and do you have any more info. as to why this might be so?

 

It's probably worth checking that we're talking about the Rosemont liquid? Whereabouts are you based?

 

Just by the way, I haven't personally found that it loses potency before the 6 week mark. I would also be loathe to switch at this stage unless it was absolutely unavailable, which I'm hoping is not the case!

 

Hi @Ripley I'm based in England. People in Wales aren't having an issue getting it at the moment and it's difficult to get any information on why it's unavailable and when they expect it back in.

 

I've emailed the company Rosemount for info but nothing yet and doubtful they'll reply to a patient. 

 

I'm planning for not being able to get it but I've got a few weeks supply left so not desperate yet. 

 

I think I'm super sensitive to dose changes now which us why I struggle with the liquid d when it's coming to the end of its broach by date. 

[Ripley]

Hi @Jools44

 

Thank you for your reply. I'd be grateful if you could let me know if you hear back from Rosemont. I may also try to contact them. 

 

I'm trying not to jump the gun and panic as there's a big difference between a temporary supply issue and a complete cessation of production! Perhaps the supply chain has been affected by absences due to covid? It'd be good to know what the situation is. 

 

[Ripley]

Hi @Jools44

 

I have just called Rosemont now and there's no need to panic!

 

I was told that they are indeed out of stock at the moment but they're hoping to get more stock by next week. I asked if this would mean business as usual and she said yes. So assuming all goes to plan, it's a temporary stock problem.

 

Do let me know if you hear otherwise but I think we don't need to worry about switching. Thank God! 

[Jools44]

25 minutes ago, Ripley said:

Hi @Jools44

 

I have just called Rosemont now and there's no need to panic!

 

I was told that they are indeed out of stock at the moment but they're hoping to get more stock by next week. I asked if this would mean business as usual and she said yes. So assuming all goes to plan, it's a temporary stock problem.

 

Do let me know if you hear otherwise but I think we don't need to worry about switching. Thank God! 

@Ripleythat's good to know, thanks for passing that on 😁

[Altostrata]

15 hours ago, Jools44 said:

It's a relatively new bottle, opened 7 days ago. The manufacturer is having production issues too which makes me a bit suspicious. 

 

Your old bottle probably lost some potency. This one is relatively stronger. Suggest you reduce dosage slightly to compensate. How much are you taking now?

[Jools44]

@Altostrata I only used the previous bottle for 4 weeks and it should be good for 6 weeks. I'm still taking 22.5mg, I haven't dared change the dose as not fully stabilised.

 

I've had a really bad night last night, 3 hours sleep, super thirsty and high heart rate. These were my symptoms earlier on and apart from the sleep had settled down. Not sure what's triggered them again but perhaps it's just a bad wave. 

 

I do worry about the reliability of the liquid mirtazapine but that may not be the issue. 

 

Should I wait until my sleep normalises more before reducing? I do sometimes wonder if I wouldn't feel better on a lower dose. 

 

 

[Altostrata]

Do you feel the effect of the mirtazapine you're taking now is stronger than the prior bottle?

[Jools44]

@Altostrata it's hard to tell but if anything I feel like I've gone in to withdrawals again when things were starting to feel a bit more stable. The excessive thirst and high heart rate were a real feature early on in withdrawal but they had both normalised. 

 

It might just be another wave and I'm jumping to the wrong conclusions about the new bottle, it's so easy to look for answers in the anything. I'm still not sure if I've got dietary sensitivities and if that's a factor. 

 

It just feels like it's taking a long time to stabilise but then I've never had such serious withdrawals before so I'm new to it.