Geddie: Confused - withdrawal with St John's Wort

[Geddie]

Hello All,

 

I am a new member, just found this forum while searching for help regarding AD withdrawal.
Have been on AD's [most of them] for around 15 years, longest and last on Paroxetine [around 7 years with breaks, I guess]. Not feeling well despite the meds, decided to come off them gradually. From 20 mg to 0 in around 4 months. Lowering the dose noticed increasing anger, increasing tearfullness [could almost cry from smallest thing], but not much more, felt acceptable. Finished taper beginning of Oct. 2021. After it anger and tearfulness became stronger, and noticed strange feelings in brain, like something is happening there [would not call them zaps], also, started "feeling" left side of brain. Could not fall asleep, had to use melatonin. All this was bearable. But later anxiety started increasing, and the sensitivity to any stressful event - it almost became a "being afraid something bad will happen" and then the fear that I won't be able to cope with it, basically making me afraid of anything, unable to cope with smallest tasks. And the latest developments - last several weeks - feelings "I just don't care about anything" in the worst meaning of it, being unable to force myself to get up, go to work, up to debilitating level, like, something locks me inside disallowing to move. I got seriously afraid I am back in depression...
At this stage, however determined I was, I became scared I will break down completely. Decided support myself with St John's Wort a week ago, it being a natural remedy and acting differently than SSRI and with lesser side effects. Now drinking SJW teas 3xday as no capsules here to buy; ordered capsules from US.
Was feeling slightly better last few days until today, feeling totally out of my body, spaced out, unable to concentrate and work; but I think is normal to have better and worse days?
Still, being unsure of effects of SJW, wanted to consult here; searched the forum, found quite a few results, but they are contradicting - one discussion says it was helping, the other said it made worse. Read also admin's comment that it may increase fight or flight response, which points me to anxiety...  And became scared and anxious again - would it mean I am not helping myself to cope, but the other way?
Having more than 3 months passed since withdrawal, I thought just need to hold on for a while, and it shall get better; but after reading of stories here with years in dread... I feel I am losing hope again.

Apologies for my bad English, also, I do not know the right terms for the feelings I feel, and that numbness in head, can't even find right words...   I hope at least some idea is clear.
I am so afraid to break down... And now I got lost - shall I stop SJW, or continue?
 

Will appreciate your thoughts here. So many thanks.

[Onmyway]

Welcome to SA @Geddie, 

I am sorry you haven't been feeling well the last few weeks. Can you update the dates when you took St John's Wort  (SJW) in your signature. Your taper from paroxetine was too fast and what you are feeling look like typical withdrawal symptoms. SJW is a potent psychoactive herb and as such it can have the same effects as ADs. What is worse though, in this case is that doses are not well controlled in pills and impossible to really control in tea. 

 

If it were me, I would stop the SJW by a quick taper and would reinstate paroxetine at a dose of 1mg. Since it's been 3 months now there is a chance that it may not work but this is the only thing that can potentially help with the withdrawals symptoms. By reinstating a small dose, we can stop it quickly if it makes things worse and if it doesn't make things worse we can increase a bit if you are still having bad withdrawal symptoms. Pls have a look at the this thread and let us know what you decide. 

About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms - Symptoms and self-care - Surviving Antidepressants

 

This thread has instructions on how to measure very low doses. 

Tips for tapering off Paxil (paroxetine) - Tapering - Surviving Antidepressants

 

1mg is a low dose but these drugs are very potent at those doses. Please have a look at these two threads, esp the second one. 

Why taper by 10% of my dosage? - Tapering - Surviving Antidepressants

Why taper? SERT transporter occupancy studies show importance of gradual change in plasma concentration - Tapering - Surviving Antidepressants

 

In the meantime, adding intermittent benzos can be destabilizing things and so adding to the chaos in your nervous system. Do your symptoms change as the clonazepam wears off? You may be having intermittent withdrawal from that. You may want to either not take it if you don't think you are addicted to it or you may want to start taking a consistent dose - i.e. 0.1mg or 0.15mg every day and then taper that after you stabilize and are done with tapering the reinstated paroxetine which could be in a year or so as we would advise you to hold off on tapering until you stabilize. Note, however. 

 

Other psychoactive substances like alcohol, pot, other drugs or herbs and supplements can also destabilize you further as you saw with SJW. The only two supplements we recommend here are magnesium and Omega-3.

 

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/15483-magnesium-natures-calcium-channel-blocker/

King of supplements: Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil) - Symptoms and self-care - Surviving Antidepressants

 

It might help you to read the first posts in these threads to understand what is happening to you: 

The Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization - Symptoms and self-care - Surviving Antidepressants

What is happening in your brain? - Symptoms and self-care - Surviving Antidepressants

How psychiatric drugs remodel your brain - Symptoms and self-care - Surviving Antidepressants

 

Hope you get some respite soon and do let us know what you decide to do and how we can help. If you have specific questions, pls @Onmyway so I can be notified. 

Welcome again to SA and remember that this will get better, 

OMW

 

 

Edited January 26, 2022 by Onmyway

[Geddie]

Appreciate your prompt response, @Onmyway , and others if you can share;
Actually, I was quite determined to continue and try to overcome the withdrawal, considering a few things:
- even on ADs, I was having constant anxiety and sharp spikes of it, low moods, etc. I did not feel ADs are working any longer. Considering past history of switching one to another, combinations of 3 at once, and still being hospitalized without much noticeable effect, all this implies switching or keeping does not make much sense.  I was taking them as I was afraid I will be even worse without them [thinking that they still do some good]. I had to take benzo due to very bad anxiety occasionally. Due to constant anxiety I started doing a lot of sports [mostly gym and running], as it seemed that only this helps to relieve the tension. Also, I read here that tapering should happen only when you feel considerably well and stable - I was not feeling that at all, so what to do then? Someone said, if you are not well on ADs, what makes you thing you will be better off them? That was a really frustrating thought, but I was slightly better and I thought I will manage the taper with sports and some tough periods. Your offer to reinstate made a mess in my head again [don't take this wrong or personal, I am just a person who is easily affected when there is no strong decision inside; actually, first time reading stories when people deal with withdrawal for years, and still unsuccessfully, threw my into such despair I had to use a benzo to stay afloat [I am still trying to work, which is rather problematic now]. Sometimes I wish I never read this and keep my faith stronger...  Please don't take this as criticism, I am just trying to clarify my reactions, apparently I am a very worrying/easily affected person.
- some initial withdrawal effects [feeling of "something happening with the brain", skin tingling, more intense headaches] almost gone, so this gave me hope the systems are restoring.
- I also read here some success stories, when even quitting CT took around 6 months to heal, so this is inspiring. I do not think absolutely everyone goes through that prolonged withdrawal? And once survived 3 months, maybe there is a chance of turning direction?
- thought SJW would support me at this tough time, as it is used as AD in many countries. Why to return to previous not really working AD instead of trying this one?

Now I realise that my 4 month withdrawal might have been too fast. Should I have considered an increased anger and tearfullness as signs to stop the taper? Apart from that, not much more was seriously happening up until 3 months...  By the way, this break down has happened just after harsh Covid, spent 4 days in bed, after that everything started deteriorating rather fast. Anyone had similar experiences?

But the taper is done, now, the most worrying question for me will I manage to stay afloat or not. And I am afraid, if reinstated, I am still gonna feel crappy [as it used to be before when reinstated/switched]. So if suffer, maybe to suffer with hope to withdraw?

Apologies for messy writing, just cant concentrate enough. And that inner shaking, appeared two days ago when I got really confused and lost, is still continuing, feeling cold chills and hands shake and all tense inside, despite even a benzo dose... Yesterday evening had a run, felt better, but this morning woke again with despair and questioning, what to do...

Many thanks for your support.

[Altostrata]

Welcome, @Geddie

 

You went off paroxetine last October, is that correct? How do you feel now compared to how you felt in December?

 

Paroxetine is a very difficult drug to go off. It's not unusual for people to have protracted withdrawal symptoms for many months. What are the most prominent symptoms you have now, that you associate with paroxetine withdrawal? How's your sleep?

 

St. John's Wort is not a harmless herb, it's what's called an MAOI antidepressant. It can react badly with certain foods. Withdrawal syndrome is not depression, you can't treat it as such. Do you feel better or worse having taking SJW for a couple of weeks?

[Onmyway]

Dear @Geddie, 

 

I am sorry that my answer was confusing or threw you in doubt. Not my intent at all. Please take everything I say as my best advice (and nothing more!) and not the ultimate truth in any way - we are working in an uncertain terrain so the advice might not be right for you. It is ultimately your decision what you want to do. Please know that I will never be offended if you do not take my advice - you know your situation best and will be dealing with the consequences so every decision is yours. 

 

I am not suggesting a reinstatement to treat your 'original symptoms' or because I believe you have anxiety/depression. The science is clear by now that ADs are no better than placebo in any clinically meaningful way in the treatment of psychological distress. This is a great article on the topic: Antidepressants and the Placebo Effect (nih.gov). But because your brain has adapted to being flooded by serotonin, it needs some time to readjust. By reinstating and then tapering we try to make that process a bit more gradual to allow your nervous system time to adapt in a more gentle way - like a crutch to an injured leg. 

As I said earlier, reinstatement might not work. Or it might bring you some stability. 

It has been suggested to me that with paxil it is better to reinstate a small dose of citalopram or fluoxetine (prozac) if you decide to go to that route. Just remember that there is no pressure from us either way. 

 

I am also comparing two evils here - SJW and clonazepam  VS reinstatement. The first two are not without risks as @Altostratamentioned and neither is reinstatement. 

 

Regarding duration of withdrawal - you are right, not everybody gets withdrawal symptoms and not everybody gets PWS and for some people it goes away more quickly than for others. It will eventually go away and it doesn't always feel awful - see above the links to the windows and waves pattern of symptoms. 

 

Regarding whether you can possibly feel better without drugs. Of course you can. Most people are put on drugs for situational distress from which they would have recovered without the drugs anyway. They often needed support rather than drugs to begin with. Others were put on the drugs because they had dysfunctional thought patterns that can be amended with therapy. Yet others have a history of trauma or difficult childhoods that creates distress and can also be treated with the right therapy. You can feel good and many people feel much better than they felt before they went on ADs after withdrawal is gone. Withdrawal itself, as awful as it is, can be a time of growth in many ways. It is an experience unlike any other and people are changed by it and can use it as a way to grow. It seems impossible in the midst of it but trust me, you will feel better. 

Please take care of yourself and answer the questions above so we can help you get better. 

OMW   

Edited January 29, 2022 by Onmyway

[Geddie]

8 hours ago, Altostrata said:

Welcome, @Geddie

 

You went off paroxetine last October, is that correct? How do you feel now compared to how you felt in December?
 

Paroxetine is a very difficult drug to go off. It's not unusual for people to have protracted withdrawal symptoms for many months. What are the most prominent symptoms you have now, that you associate with paroxetine withdrawal? How's your sleep?

 

St. John's Wort is not a harmless herb, it's what's called an MAOI antidepressant. It can react badly with certain foods. Withdrawal syndrome is not depression, you can't treat it as such. Do you feel better or worse having taking SJW for a couple of weeks?

 

 

Hello @Altostrata, many thanks for joining in.

Yes, finished in Oct. first days. But you are asking about December?

All changes in short- during withdrawal, while lowering the dose noticed increasing anger, increasing tearfullness [could almost cry from smallest thing], towards the end of taper also noticed that even smallest stress makes me react very deeply, oversentivily, was hoping nothing bad happens that requires significant efforts as was afraid would not be able to cope. But not much more, felt acceptable [would these signs be enough to signal to stop reduction the dose in slow taper?].

Finished taper beginning of Oct. 2021. After it anger and tearfulness became stronger, and new strange feelings appeared: in brain, like something is happening there [would not call them zaps], also, started "feeling" [very light headache] left side of brain [this I remember from past times, I even thought maybe there is some blood flow issue as during the neck scan a while ago they said one arthery is narrower and if I do not feel any vertigo]; could not fall asleep, had to use melatonin. Started waking up slightly earlier, but overall slept enough. Also, started constantly feeling cold so was [and still] wearing warm clothes where others wear shirts. But these episodes of cold used to be on drugs as well, when stressed. Also noticed tingling of skin, very intense and unexpectedly, mostly on the face area. Small and short light headaches usually towards evening. Chest pain [anxiety type] [although continuing from still on drugs times], started moving down to belly area.

December: "feeling" [very light headache] left side of brain - almost gone [now gone], tingling of skin slightly less but present [now almost gone]. All others remained at about same level. By the way, noticed that anxiety is generally lower that used to be on meds, that was a pleasant surprise. Also, when on meds, I used to have constant herpes and spikes in anxiety followed by very pale feces - all this is now gone.

 

All went bad when I had Covid in the beginning in January - 4 days in bed, no food, just daydreaming. Temperature up to 39, horrible headaches, had to use painkillers. Extreme chills in body, still under several blankets [btw, have read about depression after covid, quite a prominent effect; not sure if related though]

 

After that something never before experienced started to happening - felt like my body is not mine, like there is a burden between me and my organs. [depersonalization?] Felt feelings "I just don't care about anything" in the worst meaning of it, being unable to force myself to get up, go to work, up to debilitating level, like, something locks me inside disallowing to move. Before, when I felt worse, I used to go to gym or do running. Now it all seemed to be pointless. Forced myself to the gym, was pulling weigths, but emotions were so blunt, that sometimes I felt like a robot. I feel it is heavy weights, but no feedback of that weight stress feeling in the body. Over the weekend went so low that hardly forced myself to wash and shave before work. Was afraid wont manage the work. Sleep however was acceptable, slept from around 1 to 6, then a few hours still in bed.

Not productive, but managed to work. Towards the end of week even started feeling better, even prepping the food at home. That depersonalisation feeling started subsiding. On Saturday even drove the car, parked since New Year. So it all seemed like getting better, until Sonday. Suddenly started feeling low, went to gym, did not help. Monday could not force myself to do work, started googling about withdrawal symptoms, found this forum and the topics where people suffer for years. Bang, it smashed me into deepest despair - will it be with me as well? It went so bad I had to use double dose of clonasepam [1mg]. Inner trembling appeared, which persists until today. Tuesday went better, managed to work, but Wed [yesterday] was tragic again, have read the forum messages. The stomach was like twisted from fear. One story, until the taper, sounded exactly like my case - "cmusic: A long history and finally saying enough". Then started considering reinstating the ADs, as got afraid I wont manage the situation. In the evening spoke with my psychologist, she agreed that taking some decision is better than tearing myself apart between "i keep holding without ADs" and "I reinstate them". I decided to try a few more days, how it goes, and if not getting better, will reinstate a micro dose of ADs.

But tonight was hell. Asleep at 12, at 2 eyes opened, and the mind started running. Remembered horrible times like that, not sleeping during nights even when on meds. Despair became almost unbearable. Started thinking this is not wirthdrawal, but onset of depression again. Thought will take ADs the same day. Took melatonin 5mg and magnesium. This somewhat helped, daydreamed until 5, later bacically laid until 8. Arrived at work, now typing here and not feeling that horrible as was expecting.

Sorry for so many details... Summarizing and considering last crashes, I feel that my biggest enemy now is my fear, transforming into despair, being afraid to lose it all, including job, which I really want to keep, as without engagement I start feeling totally depressed and horrible.

Referring to SJW, not sure if it is helping, or not. A couple of times noticed that after drinking it, inner tremor appeared and cold chills, not sure if that shows that something is improving, or the other way. My capsules just arrived, but after @Onmyway caution, I am reducing now SJW teas, thought to drop, so don't even know will I need the capsules now...

 

6 hours ago, Onmyway said:

Dear @Geddie, 

 

As I said earlier, reinstatement might not work. Or it might bring you some stability. 

 

It has been suggested to me that with paxil it is better to reinstate a small dose of citalopram or fluoxetine (prozac) if you decide to go to that route.
 

 

- I have only Seroxat, and my doctor is not supportive on such things and says '4 weeks taper is fine', so I would need to go back to Seroxat...
 

 

6 hours ago, Onmyway said:

Regarding whether you can possibly feel better without drugs. Of course you can. Most people are put on drugs for situational distress from which they would have recovered without the drugs anyway. They often needed support rather than drugs to begin with. Others were put on the drugs because they had dysfunctional thought patterns that can be amended with therapy. Yet others have a history of trauma or difficult childhoods that creates distress and can also be treated with the right therapy. You can feel good and many people feel much better than they felt before they went on ADs after withdrawal is gone. Withdrawal itself, as awful as it is, can be a time of growth in many ways. It is an experience unlike any other and people are changed by it and can use it as a way to grow. It seems impossible in the midst of it but trust me, you will feel better.

- I truly hope so. Just, after so many years on drugs, I forgot how to live a normal life, to enjoy it... Constant anxiety became a normal, no being able to relax - a normal; I started heavily drinking alcohol. I thought I have a genetic thing that leads to depression, or a brain damage...   Can it be all this is caused by drugs?
<>

So many thanks for the feedback, it is such a relief when feeling hopeless... Reading now before posting, and crying... In the office...  Damn
 

Edited January 27, 2022 by ChessieCat
added spacing

[Onmyway]

Hi @Geddie, 

I am wondering if the exacerbation of the withdrawal symptoms you are feeling is from the doses of clonazepam that you are taking. Clonazepam can stay in your body for a very long time and your symptoms seem to get worse once it starts leaving your body. [for me clonazepam causes increased depression and nausea the day after. 

Alcohol, caffeine, pot and other psychoactive substances can also make withdrawal symptoms worse. 

 

It would help to keep notes of your daily/hourly symptoms and see if they correlate with the drugs/SJW/alcohol etc. 

 

Hope you feel better soon, 
OMW

[Altostrata]

13 hours ago, Geddie said:

December: "feeling" [very light headache] left side of brain - almost gone [now gone], tingling of skin slightly less but present [now almost gone]. All others remained at about same level. By the way, noticed that anxiety is generally lower that used to be on meds, that was a pleasant surprise. Also, when on meds, I used to have constant herpes and spikes in anxiety followed by very pale feces - all this is now gone.

 

It sounds like you were recovering naturally from withdrawal in December. The pale feces is concerning, as this can indicate an adverse effect on the liver, or an infection. But since you went off, this is no longer a problem.

 

You got other symptoms from covid. This is known to occur. They may seem similar to withdrawal symptoms, but people who never took antidepressants get them, too. Like withdrawal, covid seems to affect the autonomic nervous system, which may be why accounts of protracted withdrawal seem to match yours.

 

14 hours ago, Geddie said:

It went so bad I had to use double dose of clonasepam [1mg]. Inner trembling appeared, which persists until today.

 

How often do you use clonazepam? Some of your symptoms may be adverse effects of the benzo.

 

You need to look carefully at the effects of the St. John's Wort. If it's not helping, or if it's causing symptoms after you take it, you might gradually reduce it. It's strong, it's not like chamomile tea.

 

My guess is you're experiencing recovery from covid-19, which probably also has ups and downs. You might be more sensitive to it because you had a bad withdrawal, too. See The Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

 

If I were you, I'd count myself lucky to have gotten off citalopram without more severe withdrawal. You might be completely clear of it by now if you hadn't gotten covid. It sounds like you need to learn some ways to manage anxiety, see 

 

Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

 

Easing your way into meditation for a stressed-out nervous system

 

Music for self-care: calms hyperalertness, anxiety, aids relaxation and sleep

 

Ways to cope with daily anxiety

 

Shame, guilt, regret, and self-criticism

 

Health anxiety, hypochondria, and obsession with symptoms

 

Rather than take another psychiatric drug, I strongly suggest you use melatonin regularly to establish sleep, and use these techniques as well:

 

What is the sleep cycle?

 

Waking with panic or anxiety -- managing the morning cortisol spike

 

Tips to help sleep -- so many of us have that awful withdrawal insomnia

 

Path to Better Sleep FREE online for everyone from the US Veterans Administration

 

Music for self-care: Calms hyperalertness, anxiety, aids relaxation and sleep

 

White noise devices for sleep

 

Melatonin for sleep: Many people find it helpful

 

TV or computer use in evening can disrupt sleep: Bright light signals the brain that it's daytime

[Geddie]

19 hours ago, Onmyway said:

Hi @Geddie, 

I am wondering if the exacerbation of the withdrawal symptoms you are feeling is from the doses of clonazepam that you are taking. Clonazepam can stay in your body for a very long time and your symptoms seem to get worse once it starts leaving your body. [for me clonazepam causes increased depression and nausea the day after. 

Alcohol, caffeine, pot and other psychoactive substances can also make withdrawal symptoms worse. 

 

It would help to keep notes of your daily/hourly symptoms and see if they correlate with the drugs/SJW/alcohol etc. 

 

Hope you feel better soon, 
OMW

hi @Onmyway,

 

I [think] I do not take lots of Clonazepam recently...  Apart from those 2 days - Mon and Wed, 1mg each, I take 0,5 mg dose about once a week, sometimes not even that. I don't think this gives withdrawal, considering my past times [on ADs] when in stressful situations I used to take 0,5 mg at least twice daily for a week or so, and then quit as feeling better without any prominent side effects...  And I did not notice any next day consequences, apart from being slightly dizzy. Unlike alcohol - usually I have increased or very bad anxiety if consume larger amounts of it. So almost quit it for a while already.

Started taking notes now, thank you.

 

 

15 hours ago, Altostrata said:

You got other symptoms from covid. This is known to occur. They may seem similar to withdrawal symptoms, but people who never took antidepressants get them, too. Like withdrawal, covid seems to affect the autonomic nervous system, which may be why accounts of protracted withdrawal seem to match yours.
My guess is you're experiencing recovery from covid-19, which probably also has ups and downs. You might be more sensitive to it because you had a bad withdrawal, too.

this sounds re-assuring... I also read several posts here from other members about same issues after covid or vaccine.

 

15 hours ago, Altostrata said:

You need to look carefully at the effects of the St. John's Wort. If it's not helping, or if it's causing symptoms after you take it, you might gradually reduce it. It's strong, it's not like chamomile tea.

I took today the last cup in a few day's taper, in the morning, and started feeling cold after a while... Considering this is not the first time I feel this, this might be a sign that SJW is not the best fit for me now.
If it acts as antidepressant [activating, i.e. increasing adrenaline and cortisol], and usually depression is considered as passive condition, this well might be helpful, but in the cases where anxiety rules, waking up early at nights, being tense, etc, this may not be a choice then. Not sure if my logic is correct here...   But, well noted.

By the way, I am also drinking Ivan Chai [Chamaenerion angustifolium] teas. I could not find it mentioning here, but in Eastern Europe it is considered an adaptogen and people advise to use it in stressful times. Do you know anything about this plant and effects?
 

Many thanks for the links, will have a read.

By the way, so far I tried: yoga, yoga nidra, breathing, meditation, mindfulness and sports. Yogas used to help with anxiety, but not depression. Sports [but very exhaustive, like running till almost falling, pushing huge weights in gym] was a saviour for me, helped when nothing, even benzos, struggled to. However, low intensity sports, walking, breathing did not help, as I could not get rid of intense thoughts and anxiety, and it just made me feel worse. And all this while taking large doses of ADs, which were supposed to help.
Had I known this before I took the first pill...

Do not know if because of intensive sports, but my cholesterol levels were so good doctor said like in 20ies  [I am close to 50 now], although I eat quite fatty meats. And veggies, minimum carbs.
 

15 hours ago, Altostrata said:

If I were you, I'd count myself lucky to have gotten off citalopram without more severe withdrawal. You might be completely clear of it by now if you hadn't gotten covid. It sounds like you need to learn some ways to manage anxiety, see 

 

[Seroxat]

This is a big relief to hear that you think that I'm having considerably easy withdrawal, which might be getting to an end, as after reading stories here I was becoming scared the hell is only starting...

however, I still feel quite depressed and anxious, tense, still tearful and smallest stress drops me straight to hell... Don't plan time, and am happy I if I manage to go to work and not fall into despair. Afraid of weekend to come [alone at home].  This to be considered normal at this stage?
Shall this be improving over time?
All this was when I was taking meds as well, not always, but in waves.

oh, and last question from my previous writing, which still interests me:
All changes in short- during withdrawal, while lowering the dose noticed increasing anger, increasing tearfullness [could almost cry from smallest thing], towards the end of taper also noticed that even smallest stress makes me react very deeply, problem solving required efforts, was afraid would not be able to cope with any stressful events. But not much more, felt acceptable.
Would these signs be enough to signal to stop reduction the dose in the taper process?

<>
 

Love and hugs.

 

[Altostrata]

6 hours ago, Geddie said:

I used to take 0,5 mg at least twice daily for a week or so

 

When did you last do this?

 

6 hours ago, Geddie said:

So almost quit it for a while already.

 

You probably need to not drink any alcohol at all for quite a while. None. If you drink alcohol and you get worse symptoms, that's not something we can help with.

 

If you get withdrawal symptoms while tapering, it's a good idea to stop tapering for a while, until the symptoms go away, and then taper slower.

[Geddie]

On 1/29/2022 at 12:02 AM, Altostrata said:

 

When did you last do this?

 

about 3 years ago.
since then, the most intense use was last week  - Mon 1mg, Wed 1mg, Fri - 0,5mg [latter caused by huge anxiety due to my car involved into accident].
Sat and Sun were quite good days, esp Sun. Today anxiety increasing - could be because all that benzo flushed...  Will go to gym after work, this helps a lot.

Alcohol - not consuming for a while and tend to remain so, thanks.

[Geddie]

added full history into my signature.
feeling slightly better, but with sudden drops. Sports almost daily. It appears managed not to return to ADs. Hopefully the progress will be better with time.

[Altostrata]

You've also had covid. You may still be recovering from that.

[Geddie]

hi again,

 

having a horrible time for a few weeks again. A few times so bad that had alcohol, and benzo after a while, just would not seem to care - inner tension and despair so strong.
Around 5 months passed since withdrawal.
Feel like a living hell, forcing myself for every move, almost impossible to do something at work. No appetite, sleep is bad or sometimes almost none, and then dreadful ideas start surrounding with despair. Try to ignore them and use positive thinking instead, but without much luck. The only thing - sports- slightly eases the pain. Forcing myself to do now daily.

After a very bad crash a few days ago and creeping anxiety taking now clonazepam, but do not want to extend it for too long, but do not see other choice because anxiety is just unbearable. Doing sports daily. At all this despair decided to reinstate 2.5mg of Paroxetine, today is second day. Do not feel difference so far. As I understood, in a week I could increase to higher dose?
But as 5 months already passed, I read that reinstatement may not help. What then? I don't feel I could bear all this for too much longer...

Now I blame myself I decided to taper, but even on meds I was not really feeling well, had anxiety, apathy, no interest in life, etc., so I thought nothing to lose. But it was still more bearable than now, I could at least function and occasionally even feel well.

God give me strength [even though I am an agnostic]...

p.s. I cant believe how disabling may this condition be... Now thinking, if I just cant take it anymore, would need to call GP or psychiatric ward and discuss the situation/arrangements, but just feel could not do even that!!!     Unbelievable!   

 

p.p.s. my topic does no longer reflect my situation, but I cannot amend it, can I?

[Altostrata]

Hello, @Geddie Haven't heard from you for a while. In the meantime, you've been drinking alcohol and taking a benzo and not feeling well.

 

Your bad symptoms may be from drinking alcohol and taking a benzo on an irregular schedule. It's possible that reinstatement of a little Paxil is not going to do much because the drinking and irregular benzo have caused other symptoms.

 

We try to help people who are suffering from protracted withdrawal, but when they do things like drink alcohol and take random drugs, they are making your own problems. If people want to make their own problems, we can't help them. We're only online peer support, we can't work miracles.

 

To unravel whether the benzo is causing your symptoms, we would need to know exactly how much benzo you've taken over the last several weeks, and when. Then we take a look at this and compare with your symptom pattern.

[Geddie]

hello, @Altostrata

sorry if you misunderstood me. from your words I feel you think i am a bizarre person.
"i was not in the meantime drinking", which sounds as I was doing that time to time; i drunk alco only once, when everything seemed so pointless that I did not care anymore... feeling was so desperate that I took it just temporary to ease the pain, as was thinking about ending all this.
benzos now for just to trying to remain "afloat" and try to continue living, as I get basically "locked" and cant function, cant work. Not too much, 7,5mg clonazepam during last 2 weeks. and I know the dangers, that is why I am doing changes [reintroduced AD], as I do not want to get benzo addict.
I am afraid my depression is back, and is being brought by daily tension, absolutely no tolerance to smallest stress, and not being able to return to functioning "normal". I was trying to get up, go to work, to function... and anxiety and feelings of hopelessness were just roaming to a point of not bearable, Benzos were used only the to try to calm myself down.
I guess my withdrawal of 4 months was just was too quick. As not being able to function anymore, I guess, will need to see a doc and discuss, what and if shall be done to return to life. Likely, full return to ADs again, even if my experience was not too good with them. Read too many stories here as well, not being able to cope after withdrawal, or tapperin, whatever we call it, and reinstating. I am not a reckless patient, believe me. I really tried very, very hard. [What would you offer having uncontrollable anxiety all the time, where all my coping mechanisms not helping?]

Tried many things - to control my running thoughts, always trying to replace with positives, not allowing negatives into mind; daily sports, even when feeling hopeless, all shaking, in constant chills; psychoterapy. pushing myself into daily routine, not paying attention to how I feel. Most of time I felt so tense and scared, and this was happening constantly with increase since wirhdrawal. Were Not using benzos then. So benzos are not to blame here. This fight with that despair just took so long that my hopes, apparently, giving up.

I do not want to make my own problems. I am trying to survive at any cost.

I dont imagine now how to try to work and function...   I do not know why you stressed only these two factors [benzo and alco], as main ones. I know that evil as well.

Dont want to sound defensive.
Thank you for your support anyway.

[Altostrata]

4 minutes ago, Geddie said:

I am afraid my depression is back, and is being brought by daily tension, absolutely no tolerance to smallest stress, and not being able to return to functioning "normal". I was trying to get up, go to work, to function... and anxiety and feelings of hopelessness were just roaming to a point of not bearable,

 

You have had withdrawal symptoms for a long time.

 

See What is withdrawal syndrome?

 

Dr. Joseph Glenmullen's withdrawal symptom checklist

 

Dysautonomia (autonomic dysregulation)

 

The Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

 

What were your symptoms before you reinstated 2.5mg Paxil? What are they now?

 

We have seen reinstatement work in protracted withdrawal, but Paxil is so difficult to go off, we would have suggested a small amount of fluoxetine or citalopram instead.

[Geddie]

hi,
The symptoms during last 2 weeks [I wrote in my last two posts] - mostly total despair and very strong anxiety. Feels like the life is gone. Cant get out of bed {it is weekend now, so not at work}. Dont see any purpose in anything. I feel I should do something, maybe get up, try to go out, but internal weakness and despair just keeps me locked.
From November until Jan I was feeling better, very fragile, angry, with chills, but possible to cope.
Do not see much difference now [today took 5mg of Seroxat]. These 2 days surviving on Clonazepam.
The issue that brought to this position is extreme intolerance to stress during this protracted withdrawal. This war in Ukraine, which is quite close, hit my fears. Also, at work I have not the easiest analytical tasks, [although they were ok before], now appear too tough to handle. I just try to do them, hit despair, then anxiety skyrockets, try to calm down but cant return to normal, then either try to stay afloat and imitate work, or take benzo [last week], quite down and can still do something.

I know this cant go further as is. AD, benzo is bad; can't function. In hospital they would put me on ADs, even several, again.

Dont see the way out. Maybe it is my fears, but it is what is it.

[Altostrata]

12 hours ago, Geddie said:

Maybe it is my fears, but it is what is it.

 

If it is your fear about your condition causing "mostly total despair and very strong anxiety. Feels like the life is gone", you are generating your own symptoms. Rather than worrying, you can tell yourself to get up and take a walk of a half-hour. This will help you feel better.

 

If you feel you need psychiatric drugs, we cannot supply them for you, or provide a non-drug substitute, sorry. You will have to talk to a doctor.

[Geddie]

Thank you @Altostrata  Sadly, any non-intense activity, like walks, etc., only jeopardize my anxiety and despair; tried a few times, ended in panic. So far only thing that helps is very intense physical activity, but I am getting exhausted from daily workouts and runs....

BTW, anyone else experiencing constant chills? Happening for a several months already, feel like freezing even in warm clothes...
Any idea, what could this be about?

[ChessieCat]

29 minutes ago, Geddie said:

BTW, anyone else experiencing constant chills? Happening for a several months already, feel like freezing even in warm clothes...
Any idea, what could this be about?

 

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