Bullitt1968: one-time method for reducing and discontinuing psychotropic drugs

[Altostrata]

What happened to the diazepam you mentioned?

 

13 hours ago, Bullitt1968 said:

I am sorry, but if I get severe anxiety and panic because of a trigger (thoughts and feelings, event) then I will take the benzodiazepine straight away.

 

Of course you do, because you are dependent on benzos, take them on an irregular schedule, and dose yourself when you experience interdose withdrawal symptoms.

 

What exactly is your basic, day-to-day drug schedule?

[Bullitt1968]

@Altostrata
 

Oh, please excuse me, that was a misunderstanding, that was my mistake, sorry and sorry for this longer text.

I only take Lorazepam now.

Daily dose: 5mg Lorazepam

Morning 6:00 to 8:00 2 mg Lorazepam + 60 mg Prozac + 300 mg Pregabalin + nutrients: ,5,000 i.e. vitamin D3+K2, 200 mg magnesium citrate +B- complex + omega 3 + psyllium. 

In between zeolite to detoxify and protect the intestinal wall. Make sure I take it in such a way that it does not affect the effect of any medication taken and would like to continue taking it as it greatly reduces pain in the intestines and is supposed to cure intolerances in 6 months. I am already noticing it. 

noon: 1 mg lorazepam + 200 mg magnesium citrate, 300 mg 5-HTP

in the evening 6 pm 1 mg Lorazepam + 300 mg 5-HTP

at bedtime 8pm 1 mg Lorazepam + 100 mg Promethazine + Gaba 500 mg, lavender
 

Thank you very much for the idea with the interaction checker, this approach does not occur in our practice so far or not enough attention is paid to it.
 

I have now changed the promethazine to nighttime, because my experiences in the last few weeks where I still took it during the day and now that these symptoms are gone, I have hardly any anxiety either. So I want to start with that. I am sure that this will help.
 

I had severe akathisia-like symptoms all last night because after I had already taken the promethazine around 9pm, I started having severe gastrointestinal cramps, which was extremely strong, I know that, but to this extent is new. Then I couldn't sleep and got the full spectrum of side effects and interactions that I usually sleep through. 
 

It was one of the worst nights of my life! The cause was probably an ice cream with brownies (gluten), my body reacts extremely to gluten, it is not coeliac disease, but very painful.

The big problem is the sluggish gut Constipation is a side effect of all psychotropic drugs and I hope that once the promethazine is reduced, it will also get better.
 

I am half a nursing case, I can hardly do anything on my own! I was serious about euthanasia, I would like to make use of it now, or at least a guarantee, security, that I would be allowed to fall asleep peacefully at any time in the presence of my loved ones and would not wake up again.
 

There would be fewer suicides, I'm sure. I get caught up in it again and again and it's very hard to stop the head cinema! I need such an exit strategy, otherwise it won't work for long after 15 years of withdrawal. The body is at the end, there is no strength left.

This is not an announcement of suicide, this is my wish.

I hope you could understand this, it is not my purpose to upset you.

Kind Regards

Markus

[Bullitt1968]

@Altostrata

 

Dear Altostrata,

I am aware that I am addicted to benzodiazepines and have been for much longer than I would like. Since my psychiatrist attempted to withdraw me from Prozac too quickly, I have experienced the same symptoms as I did last year during the 3 weeks.

I successfully weaned off diazepam in 2011 and 2012. 2011 was traumatic in a psychiatric ward, where they tried a cold turkey withdrawal for three days, although I had told them several times in the admission interview that I had been taking it for over 2 weeks and that a dependency was very likely. I received it in the associated day clinic. 
 

Afterwards, I had the treatment records sent to me with the protocols and on the first day it said under diagnoses: high probability of dependence on benzodiazepines. Nevertheless, they tried it cold for 3 days and I can't prove it, but I think that was a punishment because I questioned the competence of the senior doctor and the senior psychologist on the very first day. I had dozens of panic attacks, I went to the ward room a good dozen times in those 3 days and pointed out that I was obviously already addicted. All I heard during these three days was: "Use your distraction strategies".

The only thing that helped me to get through this was that I had been recommended the book "The happiness trap" by Russ Harris about ACT (Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, which I have been doing for a long time now) by a psychologist before this treatment and had already started reading it and doing the exercises in the day clinic.
 

The thought that weighed most heavily on my mind was the fear of losing my dad, who had just had a mild stroke. I then had terrible nightmares about my dad's death. I then went back to the day clinic, where I had been several times before.

One day a patient tried to take his own life, something I had never experienced before, he cut his wrists and we found him just in time. Until then the nightmares were gone, then they came even stronger and this time I committed suicide after the death of my father.
 

I sang these thoughts to the tune of "Always look on the bride side of life" from Life of Brian, which is my humour and suited me. And it helped!
 

I think to get a picture of someone you have to know their story, how they came to be the way they are today and do what they do. That was important to me, you know most of my story now. Maybe it will help you to assess me better.

Since this trauma, I have been involved with my infoportal Raus aus der Psychopharmakafalle (Get out of the Psychiatric Drug Trap) and educate people about antidepressants; I had the great honour of translating Dr. Taylor's and Dr. Horowitz's paper on their discontinuation schemes into German.

I am ashamed that there is still no Mad in Germany, it could do a lot. I also spent 3 years counselling in weaning groups like you, but your knowledge is much greater! It took me years to acquire the knowledge I have now. Unfortunately, I am a person for whom the well-being of others is more important than my own and I sacrificed myself, my withdrawal suffered a lot and now I no longer have the strength!

For years I have had the best therapists and doctors you could wish for, who are also committed beyond their actual work. But no one can work magic either and I think I need a miracle!
 

You don't happen to have one in your pocket? 😉

kind regards

Markus

[Altostrata]

You're aware that one of the adverse effects of 5-HTP is stomach pain?

 

If I knew of prescribers who would help people taper, unravel polypharmacy such as yours, or treat withdrawal syndrome, I would close this site and refer all members to those doctors.

 

Are you interested in reducing your drug burden or just looking for a support?

[Bullitt1968]

@Altostrata
 

I did not unterstand second paragraph? What You mean with it? And what is the difference between "just support" and "reducing my drug burden?"

No, I didn't know that. about 5-HTP.  However, these pains started much earlier, when I wasn't taking 5-HTP at all. They started after the first failed attempt to stop Prozac in 2012. 5-HTP I get first time a few years later.
 

In fact, with the help of 5-HTP, I was later able to reduce the Prozac from 60 mg to 20 mg, which I couldn't do at all before.

[ChessieCat]

SA is staffed by a small number of unpaid peers who give freely of their time.  They also have their own lives apart from SA, but because of their own experiences they want to help people to get off their drug/s safely.  Their role is to provide information and suggestions.  Because of the large number of members needing assistance (this is a very busy site with many members), the staff do not have the time to provide the type of support that you seem to be expecting.  We encourage members to visit other members' topics and support each other.  Because of the huge amount of work the staff do, they are not able to provide the emotional support that you seem to want or need.  There is a site called Benzo Buddies where you might find the type of support you are looking for.  Please note that their tapering methods might be different from SA's.

 

Once the staff have provided the information and suggestions that a member needs they then go on to help other members.  There are some members who decide that they are going to get off their drugs using a method different from SA.  That is okay, they can do that.  But the staff do not continue working with those members; they work with the members who wish to follow SA's tapering guidelines.  This isn't because we don't want to help them.  Our time is valuable and we try to use it wisely.  There are also some members that after working with for a while the staff realises that their case is too complicated for this online support forum and they are advised that we are not able to assist them.  This is not because we don't care or we don't want to help.  We realise that we are just not able to help them. 

 

In your case you have been provided with the information and suggestions about your drugs and how to reduce or get off them.  However, you keep saying that you cannot do that.  The staff will not tell you what to do.  It is your responsibility to read the information provided and decide what you are going to do about your drugs and how you are going to do it.  Nobody else can do it for you.

 

Because you are saying that you cannot reduce your drugs (which is the purpose of SA) the staff are not going to continue responding to you because we don't have the time and we need to look after ourselves so that we don't become worn out and tired and then have to take time away from the site to recover which means that we are not able to help the members at all.

 

I suggest you read this post again:

 

  

On 9/7/2022 at 4:20 AM, Onmyway said:

we are all volunteers here and have limited time and many suffering people needing our help. Some of us are also going through withdrawal and have the same concentration/exhaustion/anger/agitation etc issues. As a result it is really helpful when people work WITH us rather than argue with us. People have all kinds of opinions on all kinds of topics and most arguments are not worth our time (we also have jobs/families/other things). The SA wisdom is probably better than most research papers out there and our learning has come from observing thousands of cases and when you do that patterns start to emerge. Is our advice clinically tested? No. And where there is good clinically tested advice we provide it but you understand that such clinical studies are very few. Most doctor/naturopath/random forum person advice is not clinically tested either. 

 

We assume that if people come here they are looking for information/advice which we try to provide as best as we know. What people do with that information is up to them. SA is different in that its main goal is to provide advice and information rather than emotional support. Many do find emotional support here but that usually comes from other members rather than the moderators. 

 

[Bullitt1968]

@Altostrata
 

I did not unterstand second paragraph? What You mean with it? And what is the difference between "just support" and "reducing my drug burden?" For me is it both and no difference. To reduce my drug burden I need your support.

No, I didn't know that. about 5-HTP.  However, these pains started much earlier, when I wasn't taking 5-HTP at all. They started after the first failed attempt to stop Prozac in 2012. 5-HTP I get first time a few years later.
 

In fact, with the help of 5-HTP, I was later able to reduce the Prozac from 60 mg to 20 mg, which I couldn't do at all before.

[Bullitt1968]

@ChessieCat

 

Quote

Are you interested in reducing your drug burden or just looking for a support?

What is the difference between "just support" and "reducing my drug burden?" For me is it both and no difference. To reduce my drug burden I need your support. 

Maybe it's a language problem, wrong translation.
 

I also did this task for 5 years in a German forum and then in Facebook drop-in groups. I know how exhausting and energy-sapping it is. No one can do it for long. I did it for too long and almost sacrificed myself to help others. The stories I've read, the traumas people have suffered, you don't just put that away. I have the greatest appreciation for what you do every day!
 

I have started every response to a post by someone who has sought help with a simple sentence: "I see you, I see your suffering, I know how it feels and I feel for you, I am sorry for what you have had to go through."

 
I found that they were much more friendly and understanding and there were fewer arguments and discussions.
 

I don't know how to answer Altostrata's question because I don't understand the question or the difference. She asks me what I want, one or the other, but there is no difference, they are mutually dependent. This "just support" sounds pejorative.

Unfortunately, she hasn't answered yet.

[ChessieCat]

Question:  Did you know that you can view a website translated into a different language?

 

Instructions on how to view SA in your native language:

 

Go to survivingantidepressants.org and copy the URL then go to:

 

https://translate.google.com/

 

Click on the Website TAB, paste the URL and on the right hand side click on the language you want to view the website in.  Then click on the blue arrow to the right of the box where you pasted the URL.

 

 

[ChessieCat]

There are different ways to use the word "support".

 

Here at SA we use the word "support" in the sense of helping someone every step of the way.  That is not how SA works.  SA provides the the information and suggestions so that the member can do it themselves.

 

When getting off psychiatric drugs there may be times when you experience symptoms and discomfort.  SA encourages members to learn and use Non-drug techniques to cope.  Please see the following:

 

From before-you-begin-tapering-what-you-need-to-know

 

What do you mean by self-manage?

 

Dealing with this challenge requires a lot from you, the "taperer". You need to be able to

• take responsibility for your decisions
   
• exercise extreme patience
   
• tolerate discomfort and uncertainty
   
• communicate truthfully and responsibly about what is going on with you
   
• identify when you require local, in-person support and then take real-life action to obtain it

 

Please carefully consider your ability to meet the challenges of tapering in the context of both your current wellness and life situation.

 

[Bullitt1968]

@ChessieCat

 

Thanks for the hint and the explanation, now I understand. I have been in outpatient psychotherapy since my first withdrawal from Valium. My therapist is great, pretty much masters all therapy. 

We work mainly with ACT (Acceptance and Commitment Therapy), I have devoured Russ Harris' books and recommend them to everyone, ACT is that great!
I can do any ACT exercise in my sleep, I've done it so many times. And yet none of it helps when I have severe akathisia, like just 2 days ago again.

I find comfort in Mettâ. I have done Kristin Neff's Mindful Self-Compassion programme several times.

I've been doing it for 10 years now and I'm not a typical case, as I said, everything was done wrong by the doctors from the beginning and then it's basically already too late for a gentle withdrawal.

I like to look at your exercises.

and thank you very much for the tip with the Google translator. I work with deepl when I communicate with you. It's very exhausting translating back and forth, but now I only have to translate my answer into English, which saves a lot of time and energy. 

[Bullitt1968]

@ChessieCatThere is a problem. I could not login with my username and password on the translated site and than i could not see and read Notifications. 

[Bullitt1968]

@ChessieCat

Ok, I think I have solved the problem.

[ChessieCat]

Please DO NOT tag me.  It is clearly stated in my signature:

 

Please DO NOT TAG me - thank you

[Altostrata]

This may not seem sympathetic to you, but since 2011, we have seen many people come here with self-designed drug regimens that are in themselves problematic. If they're not willing to change those regimens, we can't help them.

 

To identify how you might reduce your drugs, I have to put a great deal of time into looking at your symptom pattern. You seem to have put a lot of thought into designing your regimen yourself, but as I indicated earlier, you may have made your own problems.

 

For example, you complain of stomach pains, but the 5-HTP you're taking may be contributing to your pains, and it would seem you are disinclined to go off it. The appearance of stomach pains in your symptom pattern could be a confound that will persist as long as you're taking 5-HTP.

 

(I am dubious 5-HTP assisted your Prozac taper. By the way, since you've been taking it since 2017, you will need to taper off 5-HTP.)

 

If you are taking things that create your symptoms, and you defend each one as necessary, it would be a waste of my time to reviewing your symptom pattern or engage in debate with you over your self-medicating. I am overloaded with work. If you are set on your regimen, I will bow out of further discussion.

 

If you are inclined to cooperate, please keep daily notes of times o’clock you take your drugs, their dosages, and your symptoms throughout the day. We need to know how you feel before and after taking each drug, and your symptoms in between. Post 24 hours of notes at a time in this topic, in a simple list format with time o’clock on the left and notation (symptom or drug and dosage) on the right. This can show if your symptoms are adverse effects from one of your drugs or supplements.

[Bullitt1968]

@Altostrata

 

I think there is a misunderstanding, it was psychiatrists who, as I have mentioned, did everything wrong that you can do wrong from the beginning and I trusted them because I didn't know any better.

Today I know what serious treatment mistakes were made.

The psychiatrists obviously didn't know any better either and reacted to every side effect of a medication with another medication. And so I take now 4 different drugs.
 

Since I have been detoxifying with zeolite, I have had very little stomach pain. I will continue to take this in any case.
 

Big problem is digestion, logical, all drugs have constipation as a side effect. Unfortunately, psyllium did not help. Now I'm trying lactulose.

I will then stop the 5-HTP, but first I will reduce the promethazine as much as possible.

[ChessieCat]

10 minutes ago, Bullitt1968 said:

first I will reduce the promethazine as much as possible.

 

tips-for-tapering-promethazine-phenergan

 

11 minutes ago, Bullitt1968 said:

I will then stop the 5-HTP

 

5-htp-5-hydroxytryptophan-and-l-tryptophan

[Bullitt1968]

Thank you for pointing this out. I know that. I have never had serotonin syndrome. The serotonin level in the body is measured regularly. It is now outside the normal range, but still within the therapeutic range. Much more important is the 5HIES value, which is far above the normal range. 5HIES is the degradation product of serotonin. It probably means that my organism uses more serotonin than I can give it. I have a so-called serotonin deficit syndrome, as Prof. Römmler describes it in his publications.
 

I have published an article about it on my website. I will translate the article into English and send it to you. 
 

Please be aware that here in Europe we are always about 10 years behind you. It will take at least 10 years for your insights to arrive here.
 

We have a completely different level of knowledge here than you do. That is why I went to this forum.
 

On Monday evening, ARD (1st German television) showed a documentary "Medication against depression - do antidepressants help".

Prof Dr Tom Bschor, co-author of the German treatment guidelines for depression, spoke in it. He said;
 

Quote

"These discontinuation problems have been totally underestimated so far," says Professor Tom Bschor, one of the leading antidepressant experts in Germany. Those who take the tablets for a long time often find it difficult to get off them. This, Bschor suspects, is probably another reason why more and more antidepressants are being taken.

 

This is a milestone, the first time a psychiatrist has publicly said on television that antidepressants are physically addictive, and it is not just any psychiatrist, it is one of the co-authors of the German treatment guidelines for depression.

I could jump on the table with joy, that's very brave of Prof Bschor, let's see how long he can continue to be co-author of the treatment guidelines for depression. The pharmaceutical lobby is happy with any method to destroy the career of dissidents and their good reputation, as in the case of Peter Goetzsche.

Dr Horowitz also gives me hope that something will finally change, even if it is too late for me. 
 

[ChessieCat]

13 minutes ago, Bullitt1968 said:

Thank you for pointing this out. I know that.

 

I was not pointing anything out to you.

 

You said you wanted to taper promethazine first and then 5-HTP.

 

I gave you the links to the information that is available on SA for the two drugs that you mentioned.  This is what we do for any member when they want to taper a particular drug; we let them know where the information can be found so they do not have to try and find it themselves.

 

If you had said you wanted to taper pregabalin I would have given you the link to the Tips for Tapering Pregabalin topic.

[Bullitt1968]

I know that, no problem. I just wanted to make you aware of how far behind we are in terms of knowledge and practice. And thanks again for the help, I've already read through some of it. Now I really know that Germany doesn't have this knowledge, these insights. If I were still advising in a German forum, I would only recommend SA's contributions.

[Bullitt1968]

What is the meaning of "Thank you for pointing this out." Thank you very much for this advice" is another phrasing. I would only say thank your for this tip. 

Is there another meaning of "pointing this out"?


I have to watch what the online translator writes. I usually check it again to change wrong or misleading terms. Because I have been writing in SA for a long time now, and often longer texts, I no longer check what has been translated. I will do this again now. Deepl is fantastic, you have to correct 

Deepl is very precise, you hardly have to change anything, I trusted the machine too much.

 

[Bullitt1968]

@Altostrata

 

I'm sorry that I'm causing you so much trouble, I can no longer think clearly and the language barrier has unfortunately led to many misunderstandings. I fully understand if you no longer want to have anything to do with me but I would be grateful to hear your opinion to the following: I read in a paper by Peter Breggin or Peter Goeztsche that it is not practical to reduce and discontinue a drug over a longer period of time than you have been taking it.

I'm thinking of reducing pregabalin because I've been on it the shortest of all, a year. As a side effect, I have blurred vision, which is very disabling in everyday life, I can't read everything anymore.

What, in your opinion and practical experience, would be a practicable discontinuation schedule for 300 mg of pregabalin?

Maybe there is a rule, that works by most. I have searched but found nothing, it is hard to concentrate longer than 15 min.

[Altostrata]

This topic in the Tapering forum contains links to how to taper specific drugs. 

 

If you want staff support

On 9/13/2022 at 4:05 PM, Altostrata said:

please keep daily notes of times o’clock you take your drugs, their dosages, and your symptoms throughout the day. We need to know how you feel before and after taking each drug, and your symptoms in between. Post 24 hours of notes at a time in this topic, in a simple list format with time o’clock on the left and notation (symptom or drug and dosage) on the right. This can show if your symptoms are adverse effects from one of your drugs or supplements.

 

[Bullitt1968]

@Altostrata

Here is my drug regimen of the last 8 days:

 

14.09.2022

06:30 Woke up with severe anxiety, depressed, paralysed, frozen, abdominal pain.

300 mg pregabalin, 60 mg Prozac, 2 mg lorazepam.

07:00 less anxiety, depressed, paralysed, frozen, abdominal pain

12:00 1 mg Lorazepam

12:20 even less anxiety, depressed, paralysed, frozen, abdominal pain

18:00 1 mg Lorazepam

18:20 little anxiety, severely depressed, paralysed, frozen

20:00 50 mg promethazine

21:30 severely depressed, paralysed, frozen, more anxiety

22:00 50 mg promethazine, 1 mg lorazepam, less abdominal pain

22:20 little anxiety, severely depressed, paralysed, frozen. abdominal pain

15-09-2022

07:00 Woke up with severe anxiety, depressed, paralysed, frozen, abdominal pain. fall asleep
08:00 Woke up with severe anxiety, depressed, paralysed, frozen, abdominal pain.

300 mg pregabalin, 60 mg Prozac, 2 mg lorazepam.

08:25 less anxiety, depressed, paralysed, frozen, abdominal pain

12:00 1 mg Lorazepam

12:20 even less anxiety, depressed, paralysed, frozen, abdominal pain

18:00 1 mg Lorazepam

18:20 little anxiety, severely depressed, paralysed, frozen

20:00 50 mg promethazine, abdominal pain

21:40 severely depressed, paralysed, frozen, more anxiety

22:30 50 mg promethazine, 1 mg lorazepam, less abdominal pain

22:20 little anxiety, severely depressed, paralysed, frozen abdominal pain

16.09.2022

06:10 Woke up with severe anxiety, depressed, paralysed, frozen, abdominal pain.

300 mg pregabalin, 60 mg Prozac, 2 mg lorazepam.

06:20 less anxiety, depressed, paralysed, frozen, abdominal pain

12:00 1 mg Lorazepam

12:20 even less anxiety, depressed, paralysed, frozen, abdominal pain

18:00 1 mg Lorazepam

18:20 little anxiety, severely depressed, paralysed, frozen

20:00 50 mg promethazine

21:00 severely depressed, paralysed, frozen, more anxiety

22:00 50 mg promethazine, 1 mg lorazepam, less abdominal pain

22:20 little anxiety, severely depressed, paralysed, frozen. abdominal pain


17.09.2022

07600 Woke up with severe anxiety, depressed, paralysed, frozen, abdominal pain. fall asleep
08:00 Woke up with severe anxiety, depressed, paralysed, frozen, abdominal pain.

300 mg pregabalin, 60 mg Prozac, 2 mg lorazepam.

08:20 less anxiety, depressed, paralysed, frozen, abdominal pain

12:00 1 mg Lorazepam

12:20 even less anxiety, depressed, paralysed, frozen, abdominal pain

18:00 1 mg Lorazepam

18:20 little anxiety, severely depressed, paralysed, frozen

20:00 50 mg promethazine, abdominal pain

21:40 severely depressed, paralysed, frozen, more anxiety

22:00 50 mg promethazine, 1 mg lorazepam, less abdominal pain

23::50 little anxiety, severely depressed, paralysed, frozen abdominal pain

18-09-2022

06:00 Woke up with severe anxiety, depressed, paralysed, frozen, abdominal pain.

300 mg pregabalin, 60 mg Prozac, 2 mg lorazepam.

06:20 less anxiety, depressed, paralysed, frozen, abdominal pain

12:00 1 mg Lorazepam

12:20 even less anxiety, depressed, paralysed, frozen, abdominal pain

18:00 1 mg Lorazepam

18:20 little anxiety, severely depressed, paralysed, frozen

20:00 50 mg promethazine

21:00 severely depressed, paralysed, frozen, more anxiety

22:00 50 mg promethazine, 1 mg lorazepam, less abdominal pain

22:20 little anxiety, severely depressed, paralysed, frozen. abdominal pain

 

 

19.09.2022

06:10 Woke up with severe anxiety, depressed, paralysed, frozen, abdominal pain.

300 mg pregabalin, 60 mg Prozac, 2 mg lorazepam.

06:30 less anxiety, depressed, paralysed, frozen, abdominal pain

12:00 1 mg Lorazepam

12:20 even less anxiety, depressed, paralysed, frozen, abdominal pain

18:00 1 mg Lorazepam

18:20 little anxiety, severely depressed, paralysed, frozen

20:00 50 mg promethazine

21:00 severely depressed, paralysed, frozen, more anxiety

22:00 50 mg promethazine, 1 mg lorazepam, less abdominal pain

22:20 little anxiety, severely depressed, paralysed, frozen. abdominal pain

20-09.2022

07:30 Woke up with severe anxiety, depressed, paralysed, frozen, abdominal pain.

300 mg pregabalin, 60 mg Prozac, 2 mg lorazepam.

07:40 less anxiety, depressed, paralysed, frozen, abdominal pain

12:00 1 mg Lorazepam

12:20 even less anxiety, depressed, paralysed, frozen, abdominal pain

18:00 1 mg Lorazepam

18:20 little anxiety, severely depressed, paralysed, frozen

20:00 50 mg promethazine

21:00 severely depressed, paralysed, frozen, more anxiety

22:00 50 mg promethazine, 1 mg lorazepam, less abdominal pain

22:20 little anxiety, severely depressed, paralysed, frozen. abdominal pain, could not sleep because of heavy abdominal pain (eating something wrong, cookies with gluten) , panic, nausea, ginger tea against nausea and 800 mg Ibuprofen, instant laxative, panic, nausea and strong abdominal pain

00:15 Restlessness, tension, muscle strain (akathisia like symptoms, which I oversleep normaly, but because of not falling asleep, until Intestinal emptying at 2:30

21.09.2022

10:30 Woke up with severe anxiety, depressed, paralysed, frozen, abdominal pain.

300 mg pregabalin, 60 mg Prozac, 2 mg lorazepam.

10:50 less anxiety, depressed, paralysed, frozen, abdominal pain

12:00 1 mg Lorazepam

12:20 even less anxiety, depressed, paralysed, frozen, abdominal pain

18:00 1 mg Lorazepam

18:20 little anxiety, severely depressed, paralysed, frozen

20:00 50 mg promethazine

21:00 severely depressed, paralysed, frozen, more anxiety

22:00 50 mg promethazine, 1 mg lorazepam, less abdominal pain

22:20 little anxiety, severely depressed, paralysed, frozen. abdominal pain

22.09-2022
 

06:30 Woke up without fear, depressed, paralysed, frozen, abdominal pain.

300 mg pregabalin, 60 mg Prozac, 2 mg lorazepam.

07:00 depressed, paralysed, frozen, abdominal pain

12:00 1 mg Lorazepam

12:20 ,depressed, paralysed, frozen, abdominal pain

18:00 1 mg Lorazepam

18:20 l severely depressed, paralysed, frozen

20:00 50 mg promethazine

21:30 severely depressed, paralysed, frozen

22:00 50 mg promethazine, 1 mg lorazepam, less abdominal pain

22:20 l severely depressed, paralysed, frozen. abdominal pain
no anxiety the hole day, have had this in past sometimes.

Constant constipation, digestion only with laxatives, inflamed intestinal mucosa, gastrointestinal endoscopy planned for November.

 

I am sorry that I cannot be more specific. It's basically the same every day, I wake up between 6:00 and 7:00 with severe panic, stomach pain, depressed.

I can't tell which symptom is from which drug, because I also have chronic withdrawal symptoms, like the stomach ache, concentration problems. I have tested 2 times what happens when I only take the pregabalin, whether the anxiety then also goes away, after 1 hour it was slightly better, but it was only gone after I took 2 mg of lorazepam. Due to the pregabalin I have visual disturbances, blurred vision, this is also mentioned in the package insert as a side effect, this is very disabling in everyday life, glasses don't help. I can't say whether the pregabalin has an anti-anxiety effect.

 

I don't know whether I should reduce the pregabalin first, as I've only been taking it for a year, or the promethazine, which probably increases the akathisia-like symptoms.

 

I have had this severe pain before the recording after eating something I can't tolerate without knowing I can't tolerate it. Then all hell breaks loose. First, severe colic in waves, panic attack introduced by strong tingling in the whole body, strong nausea and the fear of vomiting. This goes on for several hours until I'm discharged.

 

I hope you can do something with it and give me a recommendation, I can't take it any longer, I want to die!!!!, ten years in withdrawal of multiple drugs is enough.

The death of Dr Ed White has made me even more hopeless and desperate! If not even a psychiatrist who is himself a sufferer can bear it and has probably taken his own life, how am I supposed to cope?

 

In addition, an acquaintance I counseled on the forum probably committed suicide 2 years ago. He wrote a guidebook and was also very committed. The last time we were in contact, he wanted to include my website in his guidebook as a recommendation for information.

 

I looked for it but couldn't find a guidebook with his name, what I found was an obituary with his name and year of birth, date of death a few weeks after I last had contact with him. He made a good impression on me, had been able to stop the medication, he did not seem suicidal to me. No one writes a guidebook for those affected when they are planning to take their own life.

 

I'm very afraid that I won't survive this either, I can hardly do anything any more, I'm at the mercy of it, I have no more strength, it's getting harder and harder to get up in the morning and go to bed at night because I don't want the next day to come because I know it will be just as bad as the last one or even worse. I no longer have any confidence in myself and my body, nor in doctors, it's been like this for years. The crash with microtapering broke my neck, I haven't recovered from that. I was so far down with Prozac and 10 days without Prozac, it was great until day 11 and the crash with strong akathisia for 3 weeks and taking maximal dose of every drug i took.

 

[Bullitt1968]

@Altostrata

 

Maybe it's possible that you remember the worst day you've had in 10 years of withdrawal, where you would have liked to die. Have you ever had suicidal thoughts and intentions? Since the crash last year, every day is hell.

I have seen the discussion on medicating normal with you and Dr. Ed White, and the documentary, but my English is not good enough to really understand all. It is a great film!

[Altostrata]

It appears you are getting interdose withdrawal from lorazepam (and possibly pregabalin and promethazine) overnight.

 

It also appears you are taking your morning batch of drugs with up to 2 hours of variation. Please take your drugs at the same time each day.

 

Why do you take these together? 

Quote

300 mg pregabalin, 60 mg Prozac, 2 mg lorazepam

 

A common adverse effect of benzos is "depression". Combined with the other brakes you're taking, very possibly your "depression" is drug-induced.

 

Promethazine can cause constipation. Do you always feel poorly after you take it?

 

Did you ever read up on adverse effects of each drug? FYI https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/what-to-do-when-medication-makes-you-constipated

[Bullitt1968]

@Altostrata Thank you for your expertise.

 

Quote

It appears you are getting interdose withdrawal from lorazepam (and possibly pregabalin and promethazine) overnight.

 

I already suspected that. Could it be that the short half-life of lorazepam is the cause? Would it be possible to replace the evening dose with Valium, which has a much longer half-life, or would that lead to other problems? 

 

Quote

 

It also appears you are taking your morning batch of drugs with up to 2 hours of variation. Please take your drugs at the same time each day.

 

Why do you take these together?

 

 

Thank you. This was set by the local psychiatric outpatient clinic last year during the crash to reduce the severe akathisia or severe akathisia-like symptoms somewhat.

What would be your advice, how should I take them instead, at what intervals or even times of day)
 

 

 

Quote

Promethazine can cause constipation. Do you always feel poorly after you take it?

I try psyllium and zeolite, but the intestines don't move. I had an operation on my oesophagus in 2007 and one side effect of the operation was increased flatulence and constipation because the air can no longer escape upwards.

 

Quote

Did you ever read up on adverse effects of each drug?

Yes, I used the online interaction checker you recommended.

The main interaction is the mutual enhancement of the sedative effect, but also constipation.

What drug should I reduce at first in your opinion? 

 

Kind Regards

Markus

[Altostrata]

Read up on the adverse effects of each of your drugs and consider whether they are adding to your problems. Even though promethazine was prescribed for your gut problems, it may be adding to those problems. I should not have to research your non-psychiatric drugs.

 

Please establish a consistent drug schedule and post your daily symptom pattern.

[Bullitt1968]

@ Altostrata

Thank you. 

This is a misunderstanding, I didn't get the promethazine for the pain, I've been taking it longer than the SSRI, since before 2009. I got it for sleeping with 10mg. Since the crash last year, I had to increase it to 100 mg.
 

Is it possible to counteract the interactions by taking the medication as far apart as possible? Propably a stupid question, but I asked naively.
 

Since I don't sleep much anyway, I get up in the morning when I'm awake and don't wake myself up at 6 or 7 or 8 o'clock to always take the medication at the same time. The most I can do is move the intake to 8 o'clock, then I have to endure 2 hours of panic or at least take the lorazepam at 8 o'clock and then all the other medicines at fixed times. That would be a workable solution.
 

So that I can assess which medication produces which side effects, it would make sense to test it individually in the morning and then continue with the medication normally 2 hours later, I would then also have to do this for the food supplements.

I started this today.

08:00 Woke up with panic, stomach pain, depressed.
60mg Prozac, 2 mg Lorazepam, 50 L-thyroxine (I take every day, because of hypothyroidism)

1:00 stronger abdominal pain, more depressed

I will add the rest at evening.

 

[Bullitt1968]

@Altostrata,

 

Dear Altostrata,

I'm sorry, but I can't do anything any more, I haven't managed to keep my diary for weeks, where I note down the medication for each day.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart for your help, there were some valuable tips.

I don't want to keep you any longer. Maybe I'll get back to you when I'm off the medication a bit and can be more active again. With 3 different medicines, all of which make you tired, sedate you and severely impair your concentration, it's only logical. I am paralysed or frozen!

 

I try to reduce Pregabalin first, because of the vision problems.

 

If it is possible, I think I will have to go back to a psychiatric ward. I have to find one that doesn't want to do benzo withdrawal first though. 
Best regards

Markus

[Altostrata]

Interpreting your symptom pattern requires a consistent drug schedule. It's possible changing your drug schedule might relieve some symptoms, since you are taking a massive amount of short-acting benzo early in the day and disproportionately less later.

 

You are also taking other drugs that may be adding to your problems.

 

12 hours ago, Bullitt1968 said:

I didn't get the promethazine for the pain, I've been taking it longer than the SSRI, since before 2009. I got it for sleeping with 10mg. Since the crash last year, I had to increase it to 100 mg.

 

Perhaps this might have caused a change in your symptom pattern since the crash last year (which was when?)? 

 

Taking TOO MUCH of a sleep-inducing drug can cause the paradoxical reaction of insomnia.

 

It appears you are rather inflexible about your drug intake and schedule. Good luck.

[Bullitt1968]

@Altostrata

 

Thank you. Yes, I am unfortunately very inflexible when it comes to my medication, but that is not by choice and not intentional. I wish I could change that, but at the moment it is not possible because of the many sedating drugs. Maybe it will get better when I could dose down a bit with the pregabalin.

Taking Tavor in the morning is necessary to control the panic in the morning, and unfortunately 1 mg is not enough. I took Valium until the crash, so maybe it would improve if I took Valium again instead of Tavor. What do you think? 

[Altostrata]

We're about deprescribing here. You might consider whether you're dedicated to self-medication and looking for co-dependents to encourage you.

[Bullitt1968]

@Altostrata

Sorry, I did not understand, what you mean, maybe a language problem and translation of the online-translater. So declare it please more understandable
I did, what you do for some years, first in a forum, later in two facebook withdrawal groups. 

[Altostrata]

Yes, I understand that, and yet you're diagnosing yourself, you're designing your own drug regimen, and you are very inflexible about changing any of your drugs.

 

However, switching to diazepam is appealing to you. You are looking for endorsement for trying a new drug while you will not reduce any of your old drugs.

 

It seems very possible to me that many of your symptoms are from overuse of the drugs you're taking now. We don't assist in enhancing drug cocktails, we deprescribe them.

[Bullitt1968]

@Altostrata

 

That's partly true, but my medication was set by doctors last year during the crash and I was in such a bad state that I couldn't have decided anything myself. I was panic-stricken, as you can see from the fact that I went back up to 60 mg of fluoxetine instead of the 20 mg that was still OK, even though that was also a recommendation from the doctors. The pregabalin in addition, all not my decision.

My nervous system has become very sensitive after 10 years of failed withdrawals, it reacts to the smallest changes with strong symptoms.

All I have tried to find out in the last few weeks is when is the right time to take which medication, so that I am not too sedated and tired, but also do not have panic or strong anxiety. That is the first step to correct was doctors had decided, doctors with now knowledge, second step ist to find the right to begin reducing.
 

Have you had many failed attempts? Unfortunately, there is always something left behind in terms of symptoms, and there are already a lot of them. I am aware that I have to go down there, the question is what to take first, and I think it will be pregabalin.
 

The Valium was just an idea to stop panicking in the morning and not having to take 2mg of Tavor, so that I can be more active in the morning.

 

I just don't want to be blamed and blamed for my condition, because it was never my fault. I think you see it a little differently. Can you appreciate what I have gone through in 10 years without taking my life and what I have done with my website, which has had 280,000 visitors since its inception and 2856 last month, which is 10% more than the previous year. I'm still here, I'm sure many others would have given up by now. 

It's this ******* long time. After all, I let everything happen to me for years because I trusted the doctors. And then they did everything wrong from the beginning that you can do wrong. By then the disaster had already happened and it was clear that withdrawal would be difficult and long. I could bite myself in the ass every day that I got involved in microtapering and curse the universe that I didn't come across Dr. Horowitz's article advising against it beforehand, but only after the crash. Eckart Tolle would say it is what it is, how could it be otherwise if it is already what it is.