areyouthere...Will begin taper this Spring?

[Jemima]

Good to hear that you're doing so well, RU!

[areyouthere]

Thanks Jemima!!! I wanted to add one more thing. In addition to a return of emotions that were previously pretty flat and numb, my dreams have changed since the long hold. : They are upbeat & happy. Last night I had an extended dream of my life being performed on stage. It included all of my kids.. it was kind of circus like with rides and everything. It was as close to a dream in color as I've ever had. Reds & pinks .. lots of movement and laughing and silliness. A celebration of sorts. My husband was at the center of it.. our relationship that is. Which I find interesting as he has almost become a non - entity in my struggle to simply survive. FINALLY I can focus on US. 

 

That's the other thing. I intentionally ignore the crazy, sad, sometimes violent dreams I have while tapering. It is fun to wake up happy & try to interpret what these more normal dreams actually mean. Good stuff. My brain is healing.

 

RU   ps. I am very happy I have experienced these improvements. If I had not done this long hold I would not have gained insight into what is possible once I am done with my taper.. which is a ways off yet. Part of why I report back is for others… but also for myself for when I am back at tapering. It is so easy to forget the good when one is in the middle of the whole tapering WD struggle.

 

There is hope. I Hope others will be helped by this post.

 

RU

[bubble]

Thank you so much RU. It helps tremendously.

 

We are in the long and perilous process of crossing to the other side of the river which has many streches so it's great hearing such good reports from somebody who has reached a firm ground and can feel the joy of basking in the sun. 

 

I was so wasted yesterday that I didn't have the energy to look at the video to test my emotional numbness but very much look forward to it

[areyouthere]

I've been in this long hold and continue to have waves. One lasted for an entire week. VERY frustrating when one is making NO changes in meds. for such a long time. What I'm saying is… at least for now I have quit playing the game of what triggered what …. I've decided to save that energy for when I am actually tapering.

 

There is a part of me that is very, very afraid that this will last forever… the windows and waves I mean & that it is just a part of life after _______   (plug in your age). I'm fighting this feeling as it is detrimental to my feeling happy and optimistic especially since I will be back to tapering in a few weeks.

 

In a crazy sort of way I am looking forward to the more difficult tapering and its inevitable waves because at least that signals progress to  a final goal with these darn drugs.

 

But then. I read about people who continue to have symptoms/ windows & waves etc….

[Skyler]

Hi RU... Windows and Waves are VERY trying. No doubt about that. I've not seen anyone else comment on this, but I found the pattern to be most difficult when it was on the wane.. by this I mean, when the W & W wore on.. when it was about to abate, the symptoms would get worse, then disappear until the next rinse wash and repeat. To be more clear, I guess it would seem the Wash cycle would gather in intensity just before the agitator stopped and the water drained out.

[areyouthere]

Are you saying that the distance between the W & W gets longer? And it is so disheartening BECAUSE the distance between the W & W pattern gets longer and so when  wave hits it doesn't just suck but REALLY REALLY sucks?

 

And even though the wave is SHORTER and the windows are LONGER and that they are FARTHER apart, the suckiness of of the wave just showing up brings one down down down and THEN……. NO WAVES????

 

"cause that would be fricking nice to know.

 

RU

[Skyler]

I'm not talking about the distance between the waves, though it seems reasonable they would get longer... my waves are comprised of tinnitus. So taking that symptom, on the wash cycle, the wash vibrations (tinnitus) get more intense at the end of the cycle. Then, once the symptoms have gone on for a couple of days, they would get worse as they are about to fade.

 

Hmmm... I'm reviewing how the pattern affected me, and I do believe this was real, not in my imagination. My difficulty was caused by a liquid suspension that deteriorated after 3 days.. and I was using it for 5 days.. so I'd be fine for the first 3 days, then things would gather in intensity and wane. Sigh, it took me a LONG time to realize I was storing the solution for too long.

[bubble]

hello ladies,

 

very useful to read you, as always.

 

I'm sorry about the way you are feeling RU but appreciate it very much that you have posted about it. I was just saying something along similar lines: a long wave that I couldn't in all honesty attribute to tapering and which followed a nice and quite long period in which I sort of began to believe that I will feel the same from then on. But no! Very, very frustrating to say the least. And also asking myself what did I do wrong this time? Somebody find the trigger! But as I said, this "search" calms me down in a strange way.

 

 Maybe I'm also keeping my solution for too long? 4 days of Xanax because doing a 3 day maths is too difficult for me ;( But then again I've been doing it like this for 5 months now and didn't notice it would make me feel bad before.

 

I think I understand what skyler is say, that a symptom in a way intensifies and reaches its peak to indicate that it will abate very soon after that. I sure hope mine will get tired of bugging me and just leave me alone after 11 days...

 

I think I read it somewhere that there are no more waves at one point, RU.

 

But I was also thinking that still being on meds causes us also some "waves" or at least rocks the boat in its own right, regardless of tapering. Or maybe it's side effects? For instance, I read that Xanax causes depression...

 

What form did your wave take this time?

[Skyler]

Maybe I'm also keeping my solution for too long? 4 days of Xanax because doing a 3 day maths is too difficult for me ;( But then again I've been doing it like this for 5 months now and didn't notice it would make me feel bad before.

Hi Bubble... You would have the sort of pattern I describe if you were keeping a solution too long. I make a solution from Lyrica capsules. According to Rhi, Lyrica is dissolved as opposed to going into suspension. When drugs dissolve there is a chemical process which may make them more susceptible to destabilization, especially if kept too long. Most of the drugs discussed on this forum go into suspension, that is they break up and form tiny particles.

[bubble]

 

Maybe I'm also keeping my solution for too long? 4 days of Xanax because doing a 3 day maths is too difficult for me ;( But then again I've been doing it like this for 5 months now and didn't notice it would make me feel bad before.

Hi Bubble... You would have the sort of pattern I describe if you were keeping a solution too long. I make a solution from Lyrica capsules. According to Rhi, Lyrica is dissolved as opposed to going into suspension. When drugs dissolve there is a chemical process which may make them more susceptible to destabilization, especially if kept too long. Most of the drugs discussed on this forum go into suspension, that is they break up and form tiny particles.

 

 

thanks a lot sky! I understand it now. But will try to make it a 3 day thing some time soon - it can't harm

[areyouthere]

 

 

Maybe I'm also keeping my solution for too long? 4 days of Xanax because doing a 3 day maths is too difficult for me ;( But then again I've been doing it like this for 5 months now and didn't notice it would make me feel bad before.

Hi Bubble... You would have the sort of pattern I describe if you were keeping a solution too long. I make a solution from Lyrica capsules. According to Rhi, Lyrica is dissolved as opposed to going into suspension. When drugs dissolve there is a chemical process which may make them more susceptible to destabilization, especially if kept too long. Most of the drugs discussed on this forum go into suspension, that is they break up and form tiny particles.

 

 

thanks a lot sky! I understand it now. But will try to make it a 3 day thing some time soon - it can't harm

 

I would highly recommend no more than a 3 day xanax solution as well Bubble. I went from making 4 days to just three and it really made a difference. It seems if I can keep a WD symptom from starting ( in my case it is a xanax headache) I am way better off. I THINK that 4th day suspension just got me on a down-hill roll from which I had to catch up from again. If that makes sense.

 

I can definitely recommend trying just three days. I'll never go back to 4 days once I start tapering the xanax again. I have the lexa pro to do first though.

 

The wave… again a trigger.. was a family wedding. We had all of kids here and two grand kids. It took me almost a week to recover and it was very frustrating because I didn't think I was very stressed during the visit. We had adult children in and out around here for a week but meals were easy, the G. kids were easy, the wedding was a blast etc. so I just figured that because I was doing so well in my hold that things would get back to "normal" rather quickly. But they didn't:

 

1) I was tired. I took at least a 1.5- 2 hr. nap EVERY day for a least a week.

2) I didn't get much accomplished i.e... clean up, wash sheets, put toys away etc. even though I had the desire. 

3) Very low stamina. 

4) Low mood. 

 

I was just plain knocked off of my feet. When I get like this I don't know if the low mood causes the other symptoms or if because of the other symptoms I get a low mood.

 

Anyway… I slowly felt better and am pretty much back to "normal" again. 

 

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

RU

[areyouthere]

hello ladies,

 

( But then again I've been doing it like this for 5 months now and didn't notice it would make me feel bad before.

 

 

This statement caught my eye Bubble. I too was doing 4 days of solution and was fine and then I started to have difficulty. When someone suggested to me that perhaps the solution was deteriorating I really didn't believe that because, as I said, I had been using 4 days worth for months without trouble. 

 

BUT. I DID go to three and it DID make a ( significant) difference and my subsequent taper experience was not problem free, but much better.

 

I leave it to the ones who hear these stories over and over either as mods here or as medical professionals to hypothesize the logical, scientific theory behind such phenomenon. I'm quite sure that there are some very good explanations for such things. And I post my experiences for people such as yourself to gleen anything that might make your own experience less trying and more pleasant and also with the knowledge that what I post is someone else's property ( I'm referring to copyright issues) to collect data from in order to find patterns that will further the medical communities own understanding of the workings of these drugs and our brains.

 

I really just want to be happy and productive. I don't understand why it has to be so hard for me. I believe a good part of it is hardwired & I believe another good part of it is childhood/ young adult experiences but I can't get beyond what I also know to be true and that is that I am experiencing symptoms from those chemicals that I take every day.

 

RU

[bubble]

thank you so much RU!

 

I think it really might be an issue especially since I take my suspension (not the whole batch but the two doses for the day) to work so it's not refrigerated. My next batch will definitely be for 3 days only

 

If I was able to so clearly identify a trigger, I would feel a lot better wedding and parties of all sorts are exhausting for all folks and the fact that you can do it in the first place is amazing! I know the low energy and loss of stamina cannot be compared to somebody who is not going through this but it's a kind of natural reaction to so much work and excitement. 

 

glad to hear you are recovering

[areyouthere]

Thanks for the affirmation that going through such visits can be tiresome. I concur.

[areyouthere]

FINALLY the liquid lexapro has gotten here. Short background:

 

I tapered from 20 mg to 14 mg in just over a year and then I hit a wall. By that I mean it couldn't dry cut my tablets by a small enough amount that didn't throw me into WD symptoms that were just too hard to handle. I needed to cut ( taper) by a smaller amount than I could manage by dry cutting. I needed liquid.

 

I not only needed to cut by a smaller amount, I decided that I needed to take a nice, long ,well-deserved break from tapering to give myself and my brain a well deserved break from tapering.

 

It's been a just over 4 month hold today. The most bothersome WD symptoms are GONE but I still have unpredictable days ( there is no pattern to them) of extreme fatigue. Yesterday was one of them. I think I slept all but 8 hours in a 24 hour period. For no recognizable reason. I hadn't done anything out of the ordinary for an entire week before. I just was tired. So I slept. 

 

At this point I welcome the beginning of tapering again. I only have 4 mg to go and I will be DONE with the lexapro as I plan on staying on 10 mg indefinitely. I really hope that between the long hold and the ability to be able to control the rate of the rest of the taper by using the liquid will result in a relatively uneventful taper.. i.e.... easily tolerable WD symptoms. We shall see.

 

I'll report back within a week or two. Wish me luck...

 

RU

[bubble]

I wish you all the luck there is!

 

Being on the very similar "merry coctail", I'm also frequently hit by extreme fatigue. I totalyl support you, in sleep as much as you need to when you need it: you've deserved it so no guilt needed

 

It's just my gut feeling that this combination of drugs (especially in a bit higher doses) make us sedated. So my hope is we will feel less of that as we slowly go down.

 

Look forward to your updates

[areyouthere]

Today is day four of continuing my hold at 14.4 mg of lexapro but using a combination of tablets and prescription liquid instead of just tablets.

 

I can tell that there are some adjustments that my body is going through although some of it could be psychosomatic but for sure I have had infrequent body twitches that are an unmistakable symptom of the switch.

 

The others are a little insomnia , some aches ( not much) and more vivid dreams. 

 

Because I am having to use measuring devices for both the tablet ( a scale) and liquid ( a pipette) I am increasing the probability of an error in measurement and thus in dosing. Throw in the variability of my body having to adjust to a liquid delivery etc. and I am not surprised that even with dosing at the same amount for 4 months previous to this that I may have an adjustment period to endure.

 

Just checking in. It's still very, very early , but so far so good.

 

RU

[areyouthere]

I woke up very early again today but did not give in to the temptation of getting up and fell back asleep. No other problems.

 

Fingers crossed. RU

 

edit… crazy dreams? Yes. Found a turtle egg nest and the human community was so excited ( it was a threatened species) commenced to have a talent show including a young girl who broke some bottom teeth & the people who ran the show were women sailors in long, woolen potatoe sacks for uniforms. 

 

I can whip me up some crazy dreams when changing meds.      At least they haven't been scary/violent!

[areyouthere]

The day of that last post was a wash.  I had some aches & was very tired. Took several naps. I cannot attribute that bad day to the lexapro adjustment. I've had days like it somewhat regularly irregularly…. if that makes sense!!

 

But today is the 4th day in a row since then that I have experienced no symptoms from the change to tabs. + liquid. I've felt "normal" i.e. functional , optimistic etc.

 

Today I made an estimated 1.4 % cut using the liquid. Now I know that with all of the measuring it could be as little as 0% and maybe as much as 4% but irregardless I have felt confident enough after a relatively event free week to start my taper.

 

At this point I'm open to suggestions with how to proceed. I'm planning on holding with this tiny cut for two weeks but am afraid that if things go well I will be tempted to make another tiny cut.

 

What are your thoughts on that? 

 

RU

[bubble]

as you know, I don't know but learning from you.

 

listening to my gut feeling I wouldn't cut before 2 weeks despite the tiny drop. On the other hand, you are still on quite a high dose of our "dear" Lex  and this one (like the others) probably also turns nastier at lower doses than at higher. That's why I will in my case, when the time comes in the far future, be a lot more ambitious initially (5 % ambitious).

 

(I'm a great adviser: manage to contradict my advice in the same sentence ;( ok, in 2 sentences.

[areyouthere]

Woke up early this am with a night sweat, and ache along my upper spine. Yesterday was a great day so this was a real bummer for me.

 

I'll hold a bit longer before I make another tiny cut. The good news is that because of the night sweat which I never have unless tapering lex., I know it is a WD symptom but the bad news is that I know it is a WD symptom…. so. Wait.

 

RU

[mammaP]

Sorry you are having a wave RU, hope it's over soon. It's always a huge disappointment 

when a wave washes over you but especially when it's time to make a cut. 

 

Hugs x

[Narcissus]

Sorry to hear about that areyouthere.  Things will be better soon, I'm sure.

[areyouthere]

Hi. I need informed help from the people who understand that Paper demonstration article. .. saturation . the uh oh point etc.

 

Specifically I would like to point out that I am aware that for SOME people splitting their doses helps & I want to know if I should try it with my lexapro.

 

In addition, on one occasion, I DID accidentally split my lexapro dose… took 12.8 mg tablet in am and 1.6 mg liquid in the afternoon and felt darn good & that was before I had done any reading on the possibility. 

 

So that and the following comment by Rhi :

 

We do have people who feel a missed dose of Prozac, despite the long half-life. They may be extraordinarily sensitive or at a dose just right of the the oh-oh point.

 

I've found that when I get down to the lower doses I do better splitting my daily dose and taking some more often. Might be that oh-oh point or it might have to do with metabolizing the drug faster at lower doses, not sure, but it seems like that approach has helped some other people who are tapering too--that is, even though they're taking a drug with a longer half-life which supposedly only needs to be taken once a day, they do better if they divide it up and take two or three doses.

 

I like the "uhoh point". Have stumbled over a few of those.

 

And I agree that this demonstrates a possible reason why people often can make bigger drops at high doses. As you can see on the graph, after a point the receptor occupancy levels off even as doses increase, and so many people are on such high doses, well above the maximum amount that's going to have any receptor-occupancy effect.  Unfortunately receptor occupancy isn't the only effect these drugs have, they also seem to have all kinds of hormonal effects, effects on cortisol levels, histamines, etc. plus stuff that hasn't been measured, so those high doses can cause a lot of problems.

 

makes me seriously think it may help me finally get down to 10 mg lexapro. I am at 14.4 mg now. Rhi & Alto please weigh in on this. I have the capability to split the dose in half or close to it and take at different parts of the day. What do you think?

 

RU

[Rhiannon]

Well, for me it's like I said--I seem to do better, when I get to lower doses, by splitting up my doses. I don't know why that is.

 

I think it may have to do with metabolism. Seems like a lot of meds actually interfere with the enzymes that are required to metabolize them. So at lower doses you would be metabolizing them more efficiently.

 

I personally haven't had any problems from splitting up my doses nor have I seen many other people have trouble with it. Other than at first, the first few days, there can be a period of some adjustment. After that it seems like it either makes no difference or it helps.

 

So I'd say if it's helping you, why not give it a try? As long as you make changes conservatively and you keep a record of what changes you've made so you can keep track of their effects, I think you'll be fine.

[areyouthere]

 

 

I think it may have to do with metabolism. Seems like a lot of meds actually interfere with the enzymes that are required to metabolize them. So at lower doses you would be metabolizing them more efficiently.

 

 

Could this possibly explain why I tend to feel better starting in the early evenings? That I am getting more of a heavy medicine "dump" in the morning than I used to because of the lower dose of lex.? 

 

Also… is Lexapro more sedating or activating in character ..do you know?

 

Thanks for the help.

 

RU

[Jemima]

Lexapro was stimulating for me, especially at the lower doses when I began to go into withdrawal. I will never forget that feeling of my brain being glazed over but my body operating at full speed just the same.

[areyouthere]

Well… I have not been splitting my dose but in two days I will have gone one week with no symptoms. Knock on wood, if after two more days still no symptoms I will drop by 1 % ( could be up to 3% taking onto consideration of error in measurement …just as the first drop) and crossed fingers…hold.

 

Not superstitious here but knock on wood and crossed fingers all will go well with perhaps a few tolerable bumps. MAYBE I will eventually identify a pattern in drops/ symptoms and come up with a tentative plan to get me to my goal. Notice I didn't say get me to my goal by such and such a date.    JINX!!!!

 

RU  Feeling pretty darn good lately…knock on wood. 

[areyouthere]

Well, the week wasn't perfect but it was close to it so I made just a slightly smaller cut than I originally wanted. Hopefully this next week will be uneventful and I can cut the rest of the tiny cut.  Feeling optimistic.

 

I actually experienced some libido as well. Rare & welcomed by all parties involved.

 

RU

 

AND an FYI for myself:

 

 

 

I would try making a micro cut and waiting a full seven days to observe how symptoms come, when they appear, how fast they fade. If there are no symptoms after doing two cuts this way, I would then experiment with moving the cuts a little closer together, gradually. Keep a journal every day of what you cut and when. Note when symptoms appear, and when they do, look not only at your most recent cut, but at the pattern of how much you have been cutting how often for the previous weeks as well.

 

If you start slow and only gradually increase, you will be able to get a sense of what you can tolerate, and then you can design your taper in a way that works for you.

 

[areyouthere]

I am very happy to report that my next tiny cut was without ANY incidents or symptoms. I actually feel better than I have in awhile.

 

I would try a slightly larger cut next week but am going on a short trip so will be satisfied with a more tiny cut. If that goes as well then in another week I might try a slightly larger one.  

 

To summarize… I have made a 3% cut over a five week period. I have been micro tapering and think I have found a rate that is tolerable ( it is at a turtle's pace) but am hopeful that I can speed it up just a bit as it is summer, I am outside a lot, feel ambitious am happy. In addition, the beginning of the resumption of this taper included my body having to get used to a combination of tablets and liquid which in itself was bumpy. 

 

RU  all is good.

[Skyler]

Good to hear RU.. turtles rule. Excellent news!

[areyouthere]

Thanks Skyler. It is good to hear from you!             RU 

[areyouthere]

RU reporting here.

 

Will be satisfied with the tiniest cut for at least another week unless the next few days are completely symptom free at which point I will increase the taper by another tiniest cut to equal approximately 3%. 

 

The trip and its emotional consequences ( long story…) interfered with any accurate summation of symptoms. I was having night sweats …but it was very hot and humid where I was.. I was having digestive issues…but I was off schedule slightly with all my meds which messes with GI and also have always had trouble with regularity when traveling… etc etc.

 

The really EXCITING and reassuring news is that I have not experienced ANY debilitating low mood since my return home

even with the last cuts and even with the trip and even with the emotional stuff. To me this is an indication of REAL improvement.

 

So. All is good at the turtle's pace.

 

RU

[areyouthere]

Having to slow down a bit. As per the last post I cut a bit too fast with my ambition and have been having symptoms. Some of them new. And so am holding until they abate. It has been 10 days and just now improving a bit.

 

 

I dropped 2% in an 8 day period and obviously that speed won't work. The other possibility is the micro cuts before that are also catching up with me. 

 

Anyway… Trying to hold here. If the symptoms don't continue to improve ( even slowly) OR get worse, I will up dose a tiny bit.

 

The new symptom is diarrhea. Typically that is a result of tapering xanax , which I have NOT been doing &/or uneven dosing which also has not been happening as I am within a hr or two and have been for months.

 

Open to comments/ suggestions, thoughts on what is happening. One thing I wonder, especially with the digestion stuff is if these serotonin receptors in the gut my be in the mix.. Just a thought.

 

Oh the other symptoms are body aches.. in my joints, a bit of lethargy, lower mood, pessimistic thinking etc...

 

RU

[areyouthere]

Ok. I am NOTICEABLY better today. It is like a switch turned on and the "old me" showed up. Not only no joint pain but my mood lifted. The digestive stuff remains to be seen but I can deal with that!

 

I did not up dose but with the combination of liquid and tablets that I am currently taking, the equivalent dry dose of just tablets is equal to it so I will be able to put the liquid away for a hold and just cut tablets. This is fortunate as I don't have much liquid.

 

I plan on holding here until at least the beginning of August as we have a trip to visit our daughter in Washington end of July. A hold is prudent in many ways then.

 

I asked my husband today if he had noticed anything about my mood lately , my behavior etc as of late and he said, "Yeah. You've been a little edgy". Ha!! To say the least.

 

RU in a hold……and getting happy.

[bubble]

hi RU,

 

just to let you know I'm following your progress carefully and happy about the improvement and the way you pace yourself.

 

Greetings from another edgy person

 

bubble